Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2023-10-10 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:02:04 × califax quits (~califax@user/califx) (Remote host closed the connection)
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00:09:04 <Axman6> yeah I was going to say the same thing but they'd left
00:09:10 × hgolden quits (~hgolden@2603-8000-9d00-3ed1-c3bf-57ee-df70-9765.res6.spectrum.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
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00:09:52 × myyo quits (~myyo@75-166-145-203.hlrn.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
00:10:02 <Axman6> I remember Ed prefers that in Lens, I have a feeling it's related to partial application of the classname in types being weird if you use the type alias
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00:17:50 <haskellbridge> <t​ewuzij> Me too
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01:24:20 × otto_s quits (~user@p4ff27261.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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01:25:46 × myyo quits (~myyo@75-166-145-203.hlrn.qwest.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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01:46:38 × bilegeek quits (~bilegeek@2600:1008:b022:5d70:d1fb:281b:8426:8eb0) (Quit: Leaving)
01:50:32 × mhatta quits (~mhatta@www21123ui.sakura.ne.jp) (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb3.1 - https://znc.in)
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01:55:54 <jackdk> Axman6: sounds right, maybe the type alias way falls down when you have MPTCs and/or some classes which are usable before you completely saturate the alias?
01:57:52 × myyo_ quits (~myyo@75-166-145-203.hlrn.qwest.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
02:08:29 × eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:645a:6c7:9f96:8355) (Remote host closed the connection)
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02:18:09 × myyo quits (~myyo@75-166-145-203.hlrn.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
02:22:34 × eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:645a:6c7:9f96:8355) (Remote host closed the connection)
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02:27:21 × wroathe quits (~wroathe@user/wroathe) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
02:27:42 <[Leary]> You need the `class` version if you want to use it where you have `... -> Constraint` parameters to your values/datatypes/typeclasses, but that's pretty rare.
02:29:20 <[Leary]> Personally, I'd rather write `class (c a, d a) => (c & d) a; instance (c a, d a) => (c & d) a` once and reuse it in ordinary type aliases.
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02:43:49 × FinnElija quits (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija)))
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09:21:59 <Athas> Yay, new GHC. I wonder when it will come to Nix.
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10:14:00 <haskellbridge> <s​imonmic> idea: the room name could be, eg, "#haskell Libera IRC" or "Haskell Libera IRC bridge", clarifying it's purpose and that it's not about building IRC bots in haskell
10:16:11 <haskellbridge> <s​imonmic> idea: the room name could be, eg, "#haskell @ Libera IRC" or "Haskell Libera IRC bridge", clarifying it's purpose and that it's not about building IRC bots in haskell
10:17:51 <haskellbridge> <s​imonmic> IRC users: ignore me, this is about the matrix room mirroring this channel. And sorry for edits, it's impossible to remember bridges are there without some visual cue
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10:23:19 <probie> There is a visual cue - IRC users complaining
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10:23:50 <haskellbridge> <s​imonmic> that is an inefficient mechanism :)
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10:38:30 <probie> It's pretty efficient if what you're gauging is level of irritation. A few stray matrix-specific messages are less intrusive than some random link on https://justpaste.it and we endure that
10:41:19 <arahael> You matrix users should just come on over to irc!
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10:44:10 <exarkun> we do, it's just irritating ;)
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11:43:59 <dminuoso> Instead of debating IRC or matrix, we should just develop one universal chat protocol to cover everyones needs.
11:44:24 [exa] increases the protocol counter
11:44:31 <_0xa> https://xkcd.com/927/
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11:52:32 <Athas> IRC already covers all real needs for a chat protocol.
11:52:36 <Athas> It is the humans that are wrong.
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12:04:45 <tomsmeding> "it is you that is wrong, not me" :p
12:04:55 <tomsmeding> the new GHC is already on the playground! :)
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12:14:16 <exarkun> Anyone have any examples of using amazonka-s3 against a non-AWS provider (eg a locally hosted minio)?
12:14:51 <exarkun> I can't figure out how you're even meant to approach this - do it in the config file or env vars? Hand-craft your own Region? Or override some Service Endpoints?
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12:19:52 <notliks> Naruto Has Ninja Sex with Nuevo Leon Governor Samuel Garcia99,99!
12:19:52 <notliks> Naruto Uzumaki visits Monterrey and meets Governor Samuel Garcia and starts a romantic escapade with him.
12:19:52 <notliks> https://justpaste.it/Naruto_Makes_Love_Samuel_Garcia
12:20:58 <tomsmeding> @where ops
12:20:58 <lambdabot> byorgey Cale conal copumpkin dcoutts dibblego dolio edwardk geekosaur glguy jmcarthur johnw mniip monochrom quicksilver shachaf shapr ski
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12:24:13 <notliks> Naruto Has Ninja Sex with Nuevo Leon Governor Samuel Garcia99,99!
12:24:13 <notliks> Naruto Uzumaki visits Monterrey and meets Governor Samuel Garcia and starts a romantic escapade with him.
12:24:13 <notliks> https://justpaste.it/Naruto_Makes_Love_Samuel_Garcia
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12:28:23 <haskellbridge> <s​m> where is our battledroid
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12:31:55 <int-e> ozone is sleeping on the job :-(
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12:54:30 <nitrix> Sir, this is a Haskell's.
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12:55:19 <notliks> I want to cum in your hair, nitrix
12:55:22 <notliks> Asl?
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12:55:41 <notliks> I am already jacking off
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13:07:21 <notliks> Naruto Has Ninja Sex with Nuevo Leon Governor Samuel Garcia99,99!
13:07:21 <notliks> Naruto Uzumaki visits Monterrey and meets Governor Samuel Garcia and starts a romantic escapade with him.
13:07:21 <notliks> https://justpaste.it/Naruto_Makes_Love_Samuel_Garcia
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14:19:30 EvanR_ is now known as EvanR
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14:47:31 <EvanR> which real number package is lambdabot using, exact-real package exports this CReal type which is parameterized while lambdabot's isn't
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14:49:39 <dolio> I woudl guess: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/numbers
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14:50:39 <EvanR> yep that's it
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15:17:13 <EvanR> 5.9.10. Linking against C++ libraries
15:17:27 <EvanR> what, that's a thing
15:18:02 <EvanR> system-cxx-std-lib-1.0 is in the package list... does that mean you can just use C++ stdlib stuff
15:18:54 <geekosaur> still need `extern "C"` linkage, but C++ stdlib varies between gcc and clang (and windows builds use clang now because the bfd linker's broken on windows) so the special package was added to record which stdlib to use
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15:20:42 <geekosaur> sadly, direct C++ linkage still remains a "$DEITY help you, especially if you're not on linux x86_64"
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15:26:16 <EvanR> immediately after running cabal init -n there's a mysterious binary file in dist-newstyle/cache/compiler, any idea what that is
15:26:27 <EvanR> 13k in size
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15:27:23 <EvanR> it's got some of my environment variables in there
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15:30:49 <EvanR> is that supposed to get committed
15:32:58 <EvanR> I'm wrong I have no idea where that came from
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15:34:37 <danse-nr3_> stuff under dist/ does not usually get committed, and i would not commit anything that captured your env vars anyways
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15:35:22 <tomsmeding> EvanR: never commit dist-newstyle
15:35:31 <tomsmeding> even worse, it says "cache"
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15:41:17 <int-e> EvanR: if you wonder what's in there: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/blob/master/cabal-install/src/Distribution/Client/ProjectPlanning.hs#L502-L508 (so it's used to detect changes of the compiler, and other information that relates to how it discovers packages)
15:41:50 <int-e> (but yeah, don't commit it)
15:42:22 <EvanR> :thumbsup:
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16:58:03 <EvanR> there is a sort of schism in programming language philosophy, you have people who design usable languages with math inspired notation that expresses huge amounts of information in a small space, then you have people who argue the code should look like english and it doesn't matter how verbose it gets
16:58:26 <EvanR> now I'm wonder what the hell it would look like if you tried to make a syntax for haskell that did this second philosophy xD
16:59:02 <EvanR> like a COBOL skin for haskell
16:59:03 <monochrom> Would that be Liskell? If you s/English/Japanese/ ?
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16:59:11 <EvanR> liskell?
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16:59:27 <monochrom> Haskell but with Lisp syntax.
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16:59:36 <monochrom> which is Japanese grammar.
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16:59:54 <Unicorn_Princess> s/<$>/map and haskell is pretty english too, isn't it?
17:00:10 <geekosaur> gcc's internal/"core" language at least used to be S-expressions
17:00:29 <mauke> how is lisp like japanese?
17:00:43 <monochrom> verb arg1 arg2 ...
17:01:08 <danse-nr3_> yeah i find like haskell respects both views to be honest. We get used to see things in terms of polarities, but often that is just an useless frame
17:01:17 <mauke> "give me that"
17:03:19 <geekosaur> yes, but English only does it for imperatives and (in a different way) interrogatives
17:03:56 <monochrom> (is Japanese verb-subject-object)
17:04:02 <mauke> I don't speak Japanese, but my impression was that its main features were postpositions (postfix markers) and leaving out any information that can be inferred (subjects, objects, etc.)
17:04:35 <mauke> oh, and different styles of speaking depending on the social context
17:04:58 <monochrom> Lisp also have postfix markers for optional arguments and named arguments/attributes :)
17:05:27 <geekosaur> those are prefix aren't they? :foo bar rather than bar :foo?
17:05:58 <geekosaur> they're only postfix relative to the verb
17:06:25 <monochrom> Yeah I mean relative to the verb.
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17:09:33 <ncf> isn't japanese SOV
17:10:00 <monochrom> Oops! It's SOV.
17:10:04 <geekosaur> any Japanese speakers about to provide some ground truth?
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17:13:00 <Unicorn_Princess> geekosaur, where's the fun in that?
17:13:43 <mauke> SOV? hey, that's common in Latin
17:14:17 <monochrom> Well then, switching strategies... "map f xs" and "give me that" follow the same English imperative grammar. Therefore Haskell is the finest imperative language. >:)
17:14:31 <yushyin> yeah, japanese is SOV, particles (the markers) are usually after the verb/noun
17:14:33 <geekosaur> seen a lot in ancient Hebrew too, although modern I think has mostly gone SVO. (both verbs and objects have markers, so you can get away with pretty much any order)
17:15:04 <yushyin> like you would see the verb and the very end + the question marker 'ka'
17:16:08 <mauke> https://metacpan.org/pod/Lingua::Romana::Perligata the most readable language
17:18:34 <Unicorn_Princess> on the other hand, sql tries to be very english-like with its "select from where", but the syntax is such a poor fit for the underlying semantics i find it utterly opaque and confusing
17:19:36 <monochrom> Generally what's wrong with shoehorning logic into natural languages.
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17:19:51 <monochrom> Natural languages were evolved not intelligently designed.
17:19:54 <mauke> UPDATE users SET password = '';
17:19:59 <mauke> oops forgot my WHERE clause
17:20:49 <dolio> You should tell logic teachers that. :þ
17:21:10 <monochrom> Yeah it's an unpopular opinion.
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18:14:09 <ddellacosta> Japanese usually has the verb at the very end, and a single conjugated verb can be an entire sentence given subject/object context
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18:33:28 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> iirc Japanese is SOV, not OSV, right?
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18:34:03 <monochrom> Yes I apologize. :)
18:34:06 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> erm, VSO
18:34:27 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> it's SOV, rather
18:35:37 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> Arabic is the most prominent VSO language, and IIRC someone tried to build a Lisp in that.
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18:36:14 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> Welp, thank god Terry Davis wasn't a Lisper
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18:39:41 <danse-nr3_> oh i did not know arabic was VSO. Yeah that works quite well with lisp, and with haskell as well
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18:40:13 <monochrom> But then you have to write like "sx f pam" >:)
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18:41:55 <danse-nr3_> oops
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18:45:56 <EvanR> terminals have bidi support now so that should be fine
18:46:54 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> oh fing hell, nick's horrible code example was actually one term away from being idiomatic haskell...
18:46:58 haskellbridge <I​nst> facepalms
18:47:39 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> https://pastebin.com/9aDhPPFU
18:47:42 <EvanR> goddammit nick
18:47:46 <EvanR> smh
18:47:48 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> i was posting this to make fun of it, but i realize it
18:48:40 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> this is actually valid
18:48:41 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/MdhtnBN3
18:48:49 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> due to do bulleting
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18:49:36 <APic> lol
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18:50:24 <monochrom> Who is nick?
18:50:30 <ski> > 1 + do 2
18:50:31 <lambdabot> 3
18:50:46 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> the guy who came up with the reason you wanted everyone to ignore me for
18:50:55 <EvanR> :t (do 1 + 2) 3
18:50:56 <lambdabot> (Num t1, Num (t1 -> t2)) => t2
18:50:59 <mauke> > do do do do baby shark
18:51:01 <lambdabot> "baby shark"
18:51:22 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> iirc some russians already posted this, and maxigit was enthusiastic about it
18:51:33 <EvanR> pureFunction is not a function, or is it, it depends
18:51:35 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> on discourse
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18:51:42 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> using do under blockarguments to avoid having to use parens
18:51:56 <monochrom> Huh "pureFunction" but it's type is Int. I wonder if we should argue over "is this a function?" again.
18:52:18 <tomsmeding> and also it's monadic!
18:52:24 <EvanR> shoot you're right, the Int is in there
18:52:30 <EvanR> that's bogus again
18:52:46 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> well, it's some kind of weird overloading in not haskell
18:52:53 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> let's not discuss not haskell, agreed?
18:52:59 <tomsmeding> no
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18:53:23 <monochrom> Yeah I noticed and exploited that length forces Int. :)
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18:53:58 <monochrom> Well this code is still legal Haskell after hiding and shadowing "return". :)
18:53:59 <[exa]> [Gödel voice:] but ints are functions?!
18:54:26 <tomsmeding> no, Gödel would be "functions are ints"
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18:54:44 <monochrom> Dear Gödel, Integer could be functions, but Int is too small for your encoding. >:)
18:54:44 <tomsmeding> which, I guess, yields the same conclusion
18:54:46 <mauke> pureFunction :: a -> Int
18:54:55 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> iirc it was hudak who suggested in haskell school of expression
18:55:06 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> that every haskell value can be thought of as a function of zero arguments
18:55:11 <mauke> and I'm keeping the return
18:55:38 <mauke> length is a haskell value, so I shall think of length as a function of zero arguments
18:56:01 <monochrom> OK yeah using Prelude's return, it is still legal Haskell, just with a different type.
18:56:31 <monochrom> But where is the fun in not arguing over 0-arity functions? :)
18:56:55 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> more like, i'm trying to understand monadic style, for instance, i taught somehow how to use (>>>) to hide point free and make it look like vertical code
18:57:01 <EvanR> an every function is a constant
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18:57:20 <mauke> > "fun" `infixOf` "not arguing over 0-arity functions"
18:57:21 <monochrom> Every variable is a constant, too. :)
18:57:21 <lambdabot> error:
18:57:21 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: infixOf :: [Char] -> [Char] -> t
18:57:21 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant one of these:
18:57:29 <mauke> > "fun" `isInfixOf` "not arguing over 0-arity functions"
18:57:30 <lambdabot> True
18:57:33 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> i tried to refactor at least some of their "newbie' haskell stuff that was infested with lets into where-based binding-based do
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18:58:10 <monochrom> Usuallly do and where don't mix that well.
18:58:12 <mauke> hmm, doesn't tell you where, though
18:58:28 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> yeah i know, because where can't see monadic bindings in do
18:58:34 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> so would you advise using let instead?
18:59:02 <monochrom> We are pretty much forced to. I have some other opinion that doesn't really matter.
18:59:26 <EvanR> let is always the answer. Or lambda. Or a case. Or a constructor
18:59:37 <monochrom> But the let order also corroborates with the imperative style.
19:00:08 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> i guess i need more experience and experimentation in this
19:00:26 <monochrom> The goal is to write COBOL but in Haskell syntax, remember? So where gives the wrong order.
19:01:03 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> yeah but the problem is that if you write it like that, it loses to py, it just looks more verbose and degenerate
19:01:14 <EvanR> I was basically boggling at how you write pattern matching definitions with english-looking essay code
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19:01:29 <EvanR> it seems totally incompatible
19:01:34 <mauke> chaotic evil: use neither let nor where, only pattern guards
19:01:39 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> figuirng out how to hybridize in functional idioms is probably the way forward, but i don't have enough experience to make a judgment or have a guess at good ways to do so
19:01:58 <monochrom> Oh pattern matching in COBOL would be the right way to use a "where" word!
19:02:00 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> how would using pattern guards work out?
19:02:37 <EvanR> hybridized (bastardized) functional idioms are the norm, scala, F#, etc
19:02:42 <monochrom> "append xs to ys where mylist takes the form x:xs" >:)
19:02:45 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> in the sense of foo | otherwise, bar <- baz = qux?
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19:03:25 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> actually, tbh, redundant code, you should be able to just foo | bar <- baz = qux, no?
19:03:28 <mauke> > let foobar = succ; pureFunction | x <- length "some_arg", y <- foobar 42 = x + y in pureFunction
19:03:29 <lambdabot> 51
19:04:34 <monochrom> Oh hey the other day I discovered the #scalaz. It says "Welcome to the ivory tower, download Scalaz 10 at https://www.haskell.org/. No, Scala 3 does not have dependent types"
19:04:50 <mauke> > let hmm | i <- 0, x <- i, i <- i + 1, y <- i, i <- i + 1, z <- i = (x,y,z) in hmm
19:04:52 <lambdabot> (0,1,2)
19:05:33 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> message set by tapas, what did you expect? :)
19:06:02 <tomsmeding> "let hmm is the 3-tuple of x and y and z where 0 takes the form i, i takes the form x, i + 1 takes the form i, i takes the form y, i + 1 takes the form i, i takes the form z" ?
19:06:14 <tomsmeding> er, s/ is / be /
19:06:31 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> mauke: you can verticalize it
19:06:34 <tomsmeding> clearly more readable
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19:08:07 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> that is a twisted and workable idiom, strangely enough, and actually shows how pattern guards can be more than just a poor man's XViewPattern
19:08:53 <monochrom> Sure, pattern guards do something that view patterns don't.
19:08:56 <tomsmeding> it's nice if you're binding GADTs where just a single constructor typechecks; doing that in a 'let' wouldn't work, you'd have to do it in a 'case' but that's unwieldy
19:09:58 <monochrom> Namely, pattern guards almost have boolean status.
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19:10:55 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> iirc, the guard syntax allows let, bool, guard, right?
19:10:57 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> the let is never fail, bool can fail, guard can fail as well
19:11:15 <monochrom> es
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19:11:18 <monochrom> err, yes
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19:11:47 <monochrom> Does it allow let?
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19:11:53 <mauke> they're all guards
19:11:59 <monochrom> > m | let x=m+1, x==x = x
19:12:00 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:3: error: parse error on input ‘|’
19:12:05 <tomsmeding> > let hmm | let i = 10 = 10 in hmm
19:12:07 <lambdabot> 10
19:12:09 <tomsmeding> > let hmm | let i = 10 = i in hmm
19:12:11 <lambdabot> 10
19:12:19 <tomsmeding> perfectly readable
19:12:19 <monochrom> Yeah that. Thanks.
19:12:43 <monochrom> Might have better luck with yahb2. :)
19:12:53 <tomsmeding> hm?
19:13:01 <monochrom> But I also wrote a wrong recursion, so meh.
19:13:08 <tomsmeding> oh
19:13:21 <tomsmeding> % m | let x=m+1, x==x = x
19:13:21 <yahb2> <no output>
19:13:24 <tomsmeding> % m
19:13:26 <yahb2> <timeout>
19:13:29 <tomsmeding> % 1
19:13:29 <yahb2> 1
19:13:41 <monochrom> But at least not a syntax error. :)
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19:15:54 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch4.html#x10-620004
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19:32:19 <tomsmeding> why does the ghcup entry for ghc 9.8.1 have '2023-10-09' under notes
19:33:18 <tomsmeding> answer: because it, and stack 2.7.3, have a viReleaseDay tag in the ghcup yaml. Follow-up question: why on Earth do only ghc 9.8.1 and stack 2.7.3 have a viReleaseDay tag :p
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19:34:22 <monochrom> ooohhh recommended is now GHC 9.4.* :(
19:34:29 monochrom wants to stay with 9.2
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19:34:34 <tomsmeding> :p
19:35:04 <tomsmeding> monochrom: I'm sure maerwald will not come and berate you for staying with 9.2
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20:10:36 <EvanR> I think I'm on the no man's land of 9.6 which is neither recommended nor disrecommended by ghcup
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20:12:31 <[exa]> (couraged or discouraged)
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20:14:42 <geekosaur> I skip every other release which means I did 8.10, 9.2, and am now on 9.6 and will use 9.8 only for testing while I wait for 9.10
20:14:58 <geekosaur> or whatever it will be called but the HEAD docs suggest 9.10
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20:58:42 <tomsmeding> it better be 9.10
20:58:46 <tomsmeding> I'm not emotionally ready for ghc 10
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21:03:39 <EvanR> there won't be ghc 10. It'll be the totally unrelated brand pivot to ghc X
21:04:06 <Rembane> XHC
21:04:49 <EvanR> that's too real
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21:05:35 <EvanR> Haskell [History] X
21:06:35 <Axman6> tomsmeding: amen D:
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21:07:07 <Axman6> Thnks, now I have anxiety, and I only just woke up
21:07:47 <Rembane> I think we need to move to another dimension or something.
21:08:15 <Axman6> GHC 9.8 + 7i
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21:10:12 <Rembane> Roaming the complex plane in peace
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21:12:26 <geekosaur> one component for DH and the other for everything else 😛
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21:15:21 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> me neither, tbh
21:15:29 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> ghc10 is going to be disappointing because I was hoping for something big with GHC10
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21:15:46 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> I hope that bgamari etc stall out on GHC 9 until there's some big release
21:15:47 <ddellacosta> how about just "X," I bet no one has thought of that before
21:15:51 ddellacosta runs
21:16:03 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> give me GHC 9.24 instead of a disappointing GHC 10
21:16:09 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> hahahaha
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21:34:11 <mauke> that way lies perl 5.38
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21:44:05 <tomsmeding> is that a problem? :p
21:44:17 tomsmeding isn't sure if there is some sub-joke here about perl
21:46:37 <mauke> no, not really
21:46:55 <mauke> only that at some point things ossify
21:47:56 <mauke> so if you stay at, say, ghc 9.x for too long, you can't switch to 10 anymore without breaking lots of things
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21:50:45 <skltonian> Garfield's Foursome with Nermal, Edna Sklton, and Jean Pierre Manikariza99,99
21:50:45 <skltonian> Garfield, Nermal, Edna Sklton, and Jean Pierre Manikariza have an orgy over lasagna!
21:50:45 <skltonian> https://justpaste.it/Garfield-Foursome-Nermal-Skilton
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21:51:03 <Rembane> Are there people still on Perl 5.38 that can't switch to Perl 5.39 aynmore?
21:51:40 geekosaur sets mode -o geekosaur
21:51:58 <mauke> no, but a release of perl 7 would be "fun"
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21:52:14 <mauke> (6 is effectively burned as a version, similar to php)
21:52:34 <mauke> oh, and 5.39 is a developer release anyway. the next stable release will be 5.40 :-)
21:54:47 <Rembane> Oh, that sounds messy
21:54:49 <mauke> there are hardcoded "perl5" in file and directory names, it appears in environment variables (PERL5LIB, PERL5OPT, PERL5DB, ...), there is code that assumes the first number will always be 5
21:54:54 <johnw> Perl still has releases?
21:55:13 <haskellbridge> <g​eekosaur> 19100
21:55:23 <mauke> people still use Haskell?
21:55:31 <johnw> mauke: yes
21:55:32 <tomsmeding> fortran still has releases
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21:56:53 <monochrom> IRC still has users. >:)
21:57:05 <tomsmeding> I built a tool to semi-automatically whittle a list of dependencies down to one that has a build plan in cabal
21:57:08 <tomsmeding> (for the playground)
21:57:15 <tomsmeding> turns out that people are overly lax in dependency bounds
21:57:16 <tomsmeding> >.>
21:57:18 <monochrom> I think someone here actually still use emacs for IRC.
21:57:37 <geekosaur> at least two, from quit messages
21:57:47 <mauke> a lot of this was caused by the switch from perl4 to perl5, I think. people had to distinguish between the established ("stable") and shiny new versions of the language, so "5" was added everywhere
21:57:52 <mauke> compare "ansi" in C
21:58:13 <geekosaur> wow, quite a lot according to my logs
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21:59:48 <mauke> so ... I guess ghc should be fine as long as they don't make a release with lots of great new features that everyone wants to use and then stay on that major version number for three decades
22:00:07 <geekosaur> I had to push them onto 9…
22:00:37 <geekosaur> (when they added linear haskell. I think that was on ghc-devs)
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22:02:08 <mauke> ... yep, three decades is about right. on 2024-10-17, perl 5 will celebrate its 30th birthday
22:02:09 <monochrom> Haha, in that case, how about a release with lots of great new features that nobody wants to use so people stay on the previous major version number for three decades >:D
22:03:45 <Rembane> Dependent types in Perl 5 ftw!
22:04:10 <monochrom> Ah, maybe I misread. You probably meant instead you talked the GHC devs out of calling linear haskell "8.12".
22:04:14 <geekosaur> actually Krzysztof suggested it first, I just got behind and pushed when people wanted to save that for Dependent Haskell
22:04:34 <geekosaur> ("that" = ghc 9.0)
22:04:39 <tomsmeding> if people wait for DH that's actually going to be three decades
22:05:34 <geekosaur> yeh, that was pretty much my point. https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/ghc-devs/2020-July/019057.html
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22:09:29 <mauke> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-bignum-1.3/docs/GHC-Num-Integer.html#t:Integer why does the haddock render wrong?
22:09:42 <mauke> it shows Integer where the source uses 'IP'
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22:11:49 <Rembane> geekosaur: Is Dependent Haskell something that's on its way into the main language?
22:12:08 <geekosaur> eventually
22:12:30 <geekosaur> mauke, it does it twice, even. sounds like a Haddock bug
22:14:26 <mauke> I wonder if one of the imports contains 'type IP = Integer' or similar, or if something is going wrong with CPP
22:16:24 <geekosaur> it's not cpp or the constructor would have been renamed, which ":i Integer" in ghci says it hasn't
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