Logs on 2023-10-12 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:02:05 | <solrize> | > fix error |
| 00:02:07 | <lambdabot> | "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex... |
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| 00:10:25 | <davean> | Inst: People didn't like Yesod's style at the time - its super anti-haskell |
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| 00:12:36 | <monochrom> | And conversely, a lot of other people like a lot of web/html templating and came from that background (just look at how PHP started out), so they were attracted to Yesod. |
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| 00:19:17 | <solrize> | you mean the like yesod more now? it was hacky but it did a lot iirc |
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| 00:21:20 | <monochrom> | Oh, usually the hacky ways are the ways that get a lot more done haha. |
| 00:21:33 | <monochrom> | Just look at C. >:D |
| 00:21:58 | <monochrom> | Even C++ started out as a meta-hack. |
| 00:22:58 | <monochrom> | But I bet: Those same people haven't changed. But the set of all people changed. |
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| 00:25:41 | <solrize> | pipes avoided the hacks and could in principle could have been extended to do the same stuff, i thought. but i never used either |
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| 00:30:06 | <EvanR> | pipes as a web server? or template language or |
| 00:30:27 | <solrize> | pipes as an alternative to conduit |
| 00:30:35 | <monochrom> | linear pipes can web the world! >:) |
| 00:30:40 | <solrize> | hhe |
| 00:30:41 | <solrize> | heh |
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| 00:31:53 | <EvanR> | linear pipes, is that a thing yet |
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| 00:34:44 | <geekosaur> | is pipes even being maintained? I thought conduit won the war |
| 00:35:10 | <EvanR> | then I should probably learn how to actually use pipes before it ceases to compile |
| 00:35:27 | <solrize> | yeah i think pipes got overcomplicated |
| 00:35:37 | <solrize> | and is somewhat abandoned now |
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| 00:37:24 | <mauke> | that reminds me, I think I still have an open PR in streaming |
| 00:37:37 | <jackdk> | I have always found pipes overcomplicated and hard to use. See also: https://www.haskellforall.com/2023/10/my-views-on-neohaskell.html -> "I learned this the hard way when I tried to shoehorn everything into my pipes package and realized that it was a huge mistake" |
| 00:37:55 | <jackdk> | Where the package author regrets pipes' design but does not go into detail |
| 00:38:39 | <jackdk> | mauke: I have one and you have two. Do you know if streaming gets much love these days? It is easily my favourite take on the streaming problem. |
| 00:41:11 | <mauke> | given that I've had no response since july 5, it looks pretty dead |
| 00:42:09 | <jackdk> | I think I've seen treeowl commenting on Haskell stuff in recent memory, have you tried pinging him again? |
| 00:43:39 | <mauke> | I just did :-) |
| 00:49:15 | <EvanR> | I wonder if there's a micropipes or something because damn |
| 00:49:26 | <EvanR> | that's a lot of type variables |
| 00:49:40 | <EvanR> | and they're not all different letters |
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| 00:50:26 | <jackdk> | I don't think I've ever needed bidirectional streaming, and if you cut that many variables go away. |
| 00:51:20 | <mauke> | isn't streaming like micropipes? |
| 00:51:36 | <jackdk> | I'd say so - the core type is pretty simple and in the worst case you can pattern-match your way to victory |
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| 00:53:20 | <jackdk> | I think also that the pipes/conduit style of "I have separate 'input' and 'output' type variables" makes it hard to do some things that I really want, like chunking without giving up perfect streaming. compare the grouping API of streaming with the lens/freeT-based one in pipes-group |
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| 00:58:42 | <EvanR> | what is perfect streaming |
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| 01:00:49 | <mauke> | yield elements to downstream consumers as soon as possible, without building intermediate structures in memory or performing additional effects |
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| 01:02:35 | <mauke> | consider something that streams lines from stdin and the equivalent of a 'group' operation |
| 01:03:15 | <mauke> | it should be able to 'yield' the first line of input immediately, without reading any further input |
| 01:03:45 | <EvanR> | how does pipes fail at that |
| 01:04:23 | <mauke> | I don't think pipes has "native" support for chunking |
| 01:04:57 | <mauke> | and if you build it wrong, you'll accumulate equal lines until you get a different one before yielding the first group |
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| 01:09:07 | <jackdk> | There's a separate pipes-group library with a truly spectacular type signature: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pipes-group-1.0.12/docs/Pipes-Group.html#v:groups |
| 01:10:13 | <EvanR> | >Group elements without collecting them into memory |
| 01:10:18 | <EvanR> | how... |
| 01:12:55 | <jackdk> | by knowing when to yield vs start a new group |
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| 01:16:30 | <EvanR> | it's cool that pipes-group doesn't depend on lens I guess |
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| 01:16:58 | <EvanR> | and then the docs don't have the Lens type linked |
| 01:17:40 | <jackdk> | that's because you can define `type Lens s t a b = forall f . Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t` in your code and it will play nicely with any van Laarhoven lens library. |
| 01:18:13 | <geekosaur> | microlens comes to mind |
| 01:18:29 | <EvanR> | I heard of that, unfortunate for the documentation though |
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| 01:20:09 | <mauke> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/streaming-0.2.4.0/docs/Streaming-Prelude.html#v:group |
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| 01:23:46 | <EvanR> | that doesn't even use lens smh |
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| 01:38:55 | <jackdk> | I love lens, but I don't understand that perspective. |
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| 01:39:44 | <mauke> | what, sarcasm? |
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| 01:42:44 | <Clint> | many people don't |
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| 01:47:05 | <jackdk> | I sometimes miss it over text, yeah |
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| 01:56:59 | geekosaur | 's xmonad config uses dbus, which means it has both conduit and lens in its dependency graph |
| 01:57:19 | <geekosaur> | why yes, my window manager has half of hackage in its dependencies, doesn't everyone's? 😛 |
| 01:59:34 | <geekosaur> | (I am occasionally tempted to just have it shell out to dbus-send) |
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| 02:00:44 | <geekosaur> | guess I scared him off 😛 |
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| 02:04:45 | <monochrom> | "broken pipe" >:) |
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| 02:07:22 | <monochrom> | Um lens plus conduit plus their dependencies look like a pretty short list (under 30). |
| 02:07:52 | <monochrom> | err actually let me try with a more clean slate |
| 02:08:41 | <geekosaur> | there's a few other things involved, like XML processing. the dependency list was certainly over 30, that fits on my screen 🙂 |
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| 02:13:27 | geekosaur | has to wait, he broke cabal-plan by purging old compilers. oughtta switch to install-method=copy… |
| 02:14:34 | <monochrom> | Yeah absolutely. In .cabal/config "install-method: copy" |
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| 02:15:17 | <monochrom> | I actually don't understand why it is not the default, and what went into the dev minds back then. |
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| 02:15:35 | <geekosaur> | oh, actually I have that set now, just didn't when I installed it |
| 02:16:12 | <geekosaur> | (~/.config/cabal/config 🙂 ) |
| 02:16:32 | <monochrom> | haha new generation |
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| 02:24:23 | <geekosaur> | beta tester 🙂 |
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| 02:31:12 | <geekosaur> | huh, actually cabal-plan (with some munging) says it is that short |
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| 02:31:44 | <geekosaur> | wait, no, half the deps are missing |
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| 02:32:53 | <geekosaur> | okay, unit ids list got them. 111 |
| 02:33:14 | <monochrom> | Yeah OK that's epic. |
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| 02:38:42 | <sclv> | copy is unreliable as an install method in the presence of data files iirc |
| 02:39:05 | <geekosaur> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/kMCJCk7V |
| 02:39:16 | <sclv> | ie a copied executable is still system specific. |
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| 02:39:29 | <geekosaur> | also interestingly I have install-method: copy in my cabal config and it's still making symlinks |
| 02:39:59 | <sclv> | maybe its using the new config location?? |
| 02:40:05 | <sclv> | xdg |
| 02:40:15 | <monochrom> | Nice, actual tree picture :) |
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| 02:40:45 | <geekosaur> | uh. how did I get cabal stuff in the old location again? now I can't trust my config |
| 02:40:59 | geekosaur | nukes it and recreates mode 0 file ~/.cabal |
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| 02:41:55 | <geekosaur> | got rid of that after the h;s update that stopped it from using cabal-3.6 during startup |
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| 02:45:10 | <geekosaur> | and it's rebuilding everything again now; guess it was using the wrong store, and I'm lucky it didn't run me out of disk space |
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| 02:46:37 | <monochrom> | And there are 108 packages to rebuild from Pandora's box... |
| 02:48:16 | <geekosaur> | wait until I rebuild cabal 😛 |
| 02:48:28 | <geekosaur> | (probably kick that just before I go to bed, it takes forever) |
| 02:49:01 | <monochrom> | haha yeah cabal-install is a whole different saga. |
| 02:49:34 | <monochrom> | So between dbus and cabal, you build the whole hackage >:) |
| 02:51:09 | <geekosaur> | no, to do that I have to build HLS 😛 |
| 02:51:20 | <monochrom> | Ah haha |
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| 03:58:18 | <lisbeths> | can we get lambdabot to service #lambdacalculus ? |
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| 06:00:51 | <geekosaur> | lisbeths, talk to int-e |
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| 09:45:23 | <Guest4140> | I have seen this unfortunate pattern many times now: you have a function that generates some sort of record where everything is pure except for one random uuid that is created in this function, and because of this you have io everywhere, is there a good way to avoid this? I winder if there is a type that is some sort of promise of an effect |
| 09:49:12 | <stefan-__> | you could take the UUID as an argument to that function |
| 09:50:32 | <dminuoso> | Guest4140: This is not an unfortunate pattern. |
| 09:50:34 | <dminuoso> | It's honesty. |
| 09:50:50 | <dminuoso> | The creation of your value transitively depends on IO. |
| 09:51:19 | <dminuoso> | If you want to get rid of it, you can parameterize it over the IO dependent value, ie.: f :: IO Int; g :: Int -> Foo |
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| 09:57:38 | <Guest4140> | thanks both for your answers :) |
| 09:58:34 | <danse-nr3> | also if you add the needed value as the last one of the function, you should get a rather nice Id -> Record interface |
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| 10:05:35 | <arahael> | dminuoso: Yes, but when you do that, if you call the parameterised value, doesn't it become effectively static? |
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| 10:10:41 | <[exa]> | Guest4140: kinda more generally, I push hard to always have IDs and UUIDs and similar identifiers _outside_ of the data structures. They are the "locator" information that should be external to data, not the "actual data". |
| 10:10:56 | <[exa]> | (as an anti-example, if the ID is in the data structure, it "identifies itself") |
| 10:11:28 | <[exa]> | (which sounds loopy and everyone should instinctively refuse it, right. :D ) |
| 10:11:43 | <dminuoso> | `foo 1 2 "bar" <$> getUUID` is wonderfully descriptive. |
| 10:12:02 | <dminuoso> | The <$>/<*> syntax lends itself wonderfully for applying functions to pure and effectful values |
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| 10:13:00 | <[exa]> | +1 ^. the other quite sensible pattern is: withUUID :: a -> IO (Identified a) |
| 10:13:23 | <[exa]> | (you can even overload there a bit and get specific uuids for specific stuff) |
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| 10:41:10 | <Guest4140> | ah I like that! |
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| 12:36:04 | <Inst> | cd ~ |
| 12:36:31 | <danse-nr3> | /home/inst |
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| 12:42:25 | <Inst> | gah, not again ;_; |
| 12:44:05 | <[exa]> | better than autopiloting `su -` password |
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| 12:52:05 | <danse-nr3> | which kind of environment would enable that type of errors? Emacs using the shell and the chat in the editor i guess. I gave up using the shell in emacs ... could have some advantages but felt clunky |
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| 13:00:35 | <probie> | danse-nr3: Any environment where the user is typing commands without actually looking. Back when I used xmonad I had a bad habit of doing that, because I had it set up to follow window focus to mouse focus, and would sometimes bump my laptop's trackpad |
| 13:05:41 | <danse-nr3> | good point |
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| 16:52:36 | <danse-nr3_> | hmm found no haddock syntax for records inline |
| 16:52:39 | <danse-nr3_> | newtype BoolCons = BoolCons { dec :: Bool {- ^ `dec` for deconstructor -} } |
| 16:53:43 | <danse-nr3_> | putting it on multiple lines makes it less immediate |
| 17:00:11 | <ghoulguy> | danse-nr3_: That's the inline syntax. What do you mean "found no"? |
| 17:01:26 | <danse-nr3_> | is that it? I just made it up but i do not see it in https://haskell-haddock.readthedocs.io/en/latest/markup.html#constructors-and-record-fields |
| 17:01:55 | <ghoulguy> | "Record fields are documented using one of these styles:" |
| 17:02:06 | <ghoulguy> | and then it shows using | and ^ comments on the fields |
| 17:02:53 | <danse-nr3_> | cool, there was no instance with {- ^ comment -} so had no clue. Thanks |
| 17:03:17 | <ghoulguy> | "You can also use Haskell’s nested-comment style for documentation annotations, which is sometimes more convenient when using multi-line comments:" |
| 17:05:29 | <danse-nr3_> | in the whole page there is not a single `{-^`, just instances of `{-|`, so i was not sure but good to know, thanks! |
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| 21:34:57 | <EvanR> | I heard that haskell was made pure because not pure and lazy was considered a very bad idea by the designers. It sounded like a hypothetical but I guess there was precedent? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen%27s_device |
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| 22:02:13 | <monochrom> | You can re-live effectful-and-lazy in Haskell by playing with unsafeInterleaveIO. :) |
| 22:05:34 | <monochrom> | But the other angle is that pure-and-eager is the worst of both worlds. For example, suppose you want constant-time FIFO queue operations. Okasaki's book (and thesis probably, I haven't checked) shows how to do it with laziness, if you want pure (immutable). It looks like you need either lazy or mutable. |
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| 22:09:27 | <monochrom> | Haha Jensen's device is pretty cute. At least the example on wikipedia. |
| 22:10:01 | <monochrom> | It almost reads like a macro system. (Then again call-by-name does, in general.) |
| 22:10:19 | <dolio> | unsafeInterleaveIO is too well behaved, I think. |
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| 22:25:01 | <cheater> | unsafeLaunchRockets |
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| 22:26:54 | <davean> | Rocket launches should be safe, its the arrivals we want to have be unsafe. |
| 22:28:03 | <monochrom> | No! Rocket launches release so much poisonous gases that observers are required to stay like 2 miles away. That's how unsafe it is. |
| 22:28:22 | <EvanR> | unless you're filming soyuz launches for roscosmos |
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| 22:29:03 | <EvanR> | also I wonder if there has been haskell in space ever |
| 22:29:27 | <EvanR> | space probe teams write all their code in C and wonder why they crash into the moon |
| 22:29:58 | <geekosaur> | actually nasa is funding clash and another write-trusted-C-code-via-Haskell tool |
| 22:30:21 | <monochrom> | Um, "clash" is not a very lucky name :) |
| 22:30:43 | <EvanR> | crash -> clash |
| 22:30:47 | <EvanR> | right -> left |
| 22:31:13 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: Copilot? |
| 22:31:20 | <tomsmeding> | not to be confused with the other thing with the same name |
| 22:31:29 | <monochrom> | Someone is going to jinx themselves by naming their language "crash" and their system "burn". >:) |
| 22:31:40 | <geekosaur> | right, that one |
| 22:32:10 | <monochrom> | Ugh too many chefs and copilots. >:) |
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| 22:32:59 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: here in NL most trailers for rent seem to be made by a company whose name translates to "falters" |
| 22:33:26 | <tomsmeding> | and that translation is not an exaggeration |
| 22:33:35 | <monochrom> | haha |
| 22:33:38 | <EvanR> | faulty towers Inc |
| 22:33:48 | <tomsmeding> | (Hapert, for the dutchies around) |
| 22:34:23 | <tomsmeding> | oh it's a European brand apparently |
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| 22:36:58 | <davean> | monochrom: uh, I mean it varies by the rocket, many don't give off any toxins. |
| 22:37:31 | <davean> | You have to be much more worried about launch failures |
| 22:37:52 | <monochrom> | I forgot those. |
| 22:41:03 | <davean> | Some of the largest explosions in human history are rocket launch failures |
| 22:41:38 | <davean> | We don't want those though, hence safeLaunchRockets, unsafeDeliverRockets |
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| 23:46:52 | → | xff0x joins (~xff0x@178.255.149.135) |
| 23:52:28 | → | alphacentauri joins (alphacenta@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/alphacentauri) |
| 23:55:24 | × | waleee quits (~waleee@2001:9b0:21c:e600:f2f3:f744:435d:137c) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 23:55:50 | → | waleee joins (~waleee@2001:9b0:21c:e600:f2f3:f744:435d:137c) |
| 23:59:23 | → | adium joins (adium@user/adium) |
All times are in UTC on 2023-10-12.