Logs on 2023-10-13 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:46:39 | <EvanR> | The equivalence f x = y <=> f = \x -> y is only valid if there is exactly one function which solves the first equation. -- wikipedia on curry's paradox |
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| 01:04:21 | <geekosaur> | is this supposed to be a problem? (only 0 or 1 such may exist in a given Haskell program) |
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| 01:05:21 | <geekosaur> | (and it's not relevant if there are zero) |
| 01:05:25 | <EvanR> | yeah I'm not sure it makes sense. They give square root as a counter example but it doesn't seem to type check |
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| 01:06:07 | <EvanR> | squared x = y doesn't lead to two functions |
| 01:07:44 | <geekosaur> | but the other side does because it can be satisfied by x and -x |
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| 01:09:13 | <geekosaur> | did you manage to get in touch with int-e re lambdabot? |
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| 01:10:49 | <EvanR> | lambdabot seems to be working, was I supposed to contact int-e about something |
| 01:10:58 | <geekosaur> | no, lisbeths was |
| 01:11:55 | <lisbeths> | pls we has no bot |
| 01:12:37 | <geekosaur> | @ask int-e lisbeths would like lambdabot to join #lambdacalculus |
| 01:12:37 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
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| 09:07:07 | <ncf> | EvanR: i guess it's weird because it seems to imply that x is a variable by using it as a binder, but in that case the solution λ x. y is obviously unique (an agda developer would say that the equation f x = y is in the pattern fragment of higher order unification) |
| 09:08:51 | <ncf> | or maybe it's intending that f can appear in y, or something? |
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| 09:13:16 | <tomsmeding> | I mean, in Haskell f can also appear in y if you write f = \x -> y |
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| 09:15:52 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: perhaps the point of that line on wikipedia is that x may be an arbitrary expression |
| 09:16:06 | <tomsmeding> | oh no then the RHS wouldn't be syntactically valid |
| 09:16:54 | <tomsmeding> | nah I claim that wikipedia line is just bogus :p |
| 09:17:30 | <tomsmeding> | I can think of two things that they could have tried to write down, but neither are fully consistent with the equation's notation |
| 09:19:56 | <tomsmeding> | (1. x is an arbitrary expression, not just a variable: then you can only deduce from that a definition of f if the functional equation fully determines f. But then the definition wouldn't be \x. y, because you'd have to solve the fun.eq. first. 2. the intent of 'f x = y' is that this is a _property_ of f, and not necessarily the only such property: then indeed, it can only be used to derive a |
| 09:19:56 | <tomsmeding> | definition of f if no other properties are necessary to fully determine f. But then again, if '\x. y' is to make sense, then x is a variable, and 'f x = y' by construction fully determines f) |
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| 09:24:10 | <int-e> | . o O ( sqrt = \(x^2) -> y ) |
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| 09:25:33 | <tomsmeding> | right, that makes no sense in the lambda calculus |
| 09:25:57 | <tomsmeding> | people may say "it makes sense in some logic programming languages", fine, but the wikipedia section was about LC :p |
| 09:26:05 | <int-e> | err, -> x, not -> y |
| 09:26:10 | <ncf> | just add a β² rule: (λ x². y) e² → y[x/e] |
| 09:26:44 | <tomsmeding> | what if I call my variable x² |
| 09:27:46 | <int-e> | I mean, the sentence in that page is *valid*, it's just much less of a caveat when you restrict `x` to be a variable as the lambda calculus does... I believe you really have to consider fixed points before that becomes problematic if your idea is to model total functions. |
| 09:27:57 | <int-e> | :t fix id |
| 09:27:58 | <lambdabot> | a |
| 09:28:27 | <int-e> | s/model/express/ |
| 09:28:35 | <tomsmeding> | it... is valid, but it doesn't say anything then :p |
| 09:29:09 | <int-e> | It's incongruous. Not unexpected from Wikipedia... |
| 09:30:00 | <int-e> | (I imagine that if you go through the history of that section you'll find several contributors for the different paragraphs at least, not counting typo and cosmetic fixes) |
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| 10:43:22 | <mauke> | use Acme::Lvalue qw(:builtins); sqrt(my $x) = 5; say $x; |
| 10:46:19 | <ncf> | is this 🦋 a lens? |
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| 10:49:19 | <ncf> | > undefined & from (exponentiating 2) .~ 5 |
| 10:49:20 | <lambdabot> | 25.0 |
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| 17:29:19 | → | Inst joins (~Inst@120.244.192.250) |
| 17:29:27 | <Inst> | ... |
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| 17:35:42 | <Cale> | ... |
| 17:37:14 | <danse-nr3_> | ... |
| 17:38:21 | <ncf> | :t (...) |
| 17:38:21 | <geekosaur> | ... |
| 17:38:22 | <lambdabot> | forall k (f :: * -> *) c s t (p :: k -> * -> *) (a :: k) b. (Applicative f, Plated c) => LensLike f s t c c -> Over p f c c a b -> Over p f s t a b |
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| 17:41:36 | <EvanR> | … |
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| 17:49:54 | <cheater> | any new haskell jobs around? |
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| 17:54:51 | <danse-nr3_> | haha good one cheater |
| 17:55:18 | <cheater> | what an odd answer |
| 17:55:40 | <danse-nr3_> | nice joke |
| 17:56:49 | <EvanR> | I heard jane street is hiring |
| 17:57:01 | <cheater> | they don't do remote |
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| 17:57:15 | <EvanR> | goalpost whack-a-mole! |
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| 17:58:34 | <nullie> | heh |
| 17:59:03 | <monochrom> | Hey that's great lateral thinking. Rip out the goalpost and use it to whack moles. >:) |
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| 17:59:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Inst> https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=Haskell+language&l=&vjk=1d7fd376362e5074 |
| 18:00:00 | <monochrom> | ObHaskell: I have just learned the equiv of hello world in wai and warp. |
| 18:00:18 | <danse-nr3_> | indeed is quite bad for haskell jobs |
| 18:00:58 | <monochrom> | But I am not used to pulling in and initially building that many dependencies. |
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| 18:02:42 | ← | Inst parts (~Inst@120.244.192.250) (Leaving) |
| 18:02:47 | <danse-nr3_> | although thanks for the input Inst |
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| 18:04:25 | <EvanR> | webtech expands to fill the computational resources allowed for it |
| 18:04:35 | <monochrom> | I know it is a one-time setup cost that doesn't matter in the long run. But I am learning any web thing at all because I am giving a docker intro talk tomorrow, so I want to show a web hello-world example so that I can talk about port forwarding. |
| 18:06:28 | <monochrom> | And then it becomes apparent that if I go the "use docker-build to build an image that contains the exe for running", it is not easy to avoid rebuilding all dependencies all the time. (There are mitigations, but some are probably too advanced to fit in this very intro talk.) |
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| 18:08:49 | <monochrom> | To be sure, that is not the only way to use docker. One can instead use the host to make the exe. (So I meant in the previous sentence using the container to make the exe. Many people in many other languages do that.) |
| 18:11:51 | <danse-nr3_> | i did not practice nix enough to understand whether it could be used as a replacement for docker |
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| 18:18:01 | <ddellacosta> | I use nix to generate a docker image for me at the end of build, fwiw |
| 18:19:20 | <danse-nr3_> | for deployment, i guess, but the idea in docker is one would build images from other images, so possibly you are bypassing parts of it through nix |
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| 18:25:10 | <danse-nr3_> | uh strange, #nix is an invite-only channel |
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| 18:30:28 | <EvanR> | it's comonad, users can only come out of that channel not go in |
| 18:31:32 | <danse-nr3_> | sounds like a great way to avoid success. Interesting property of comonads, i will check them out |
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| 18:37:52 | <geekosaur> | isn't there a #haskell-nix? |
| 18:37:55 | <yushyin> | a bit odd but nix/nixos use matrix.org for their support channels anyway |
| 18:39:52 | <danse-nr3_> | #haskell-nix is desert |
| 18:39:57 | <[Leary]> | The nix channel has always been #nixos, though it's unofficial. |
| 18:41:15 | <danse-nr3_> | thanks |
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| 19:10:53 | <johnw> | I think haskell-nix is for the hnix implementation |
| 19:10:55 | <[exa]> | is there any existing aeson function for "patching over" the Object-ish values? |
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| 19:11:10 | <johnw> | funny story: although I wrote hnix, one day I went there to ask a question about IOG's haskellNix library. Hilarity ensued. |
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| 19:14:46 | <EvanR> | [exa], the Object in latest aeson seems to implemented as its own KeyMap type with a bunch of operations |
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| 19:15:55 | <EvanR> | in the old days it was a HashMap, how times have changed! |
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| 19:18:06 | <__monty__> | johnw: More story time! |
| 19:18:22 | <EvanR> | now the choice depends on a preprocessor defined constant |
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| 19:22:25 | <[exa]> | EvanR: yeah that one has `union`...more like scanning for reasonable implementation over the whole Value business |
| 19:22:42 | <[exa]> | but yeah nvm it's like 5 lines of code at this point |
| 19:22:48 | <[exa]> | thanks :] |
| 19:23:40 | <EvanR> | the unreasonable effectiveness of json |
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| 19:29:10 | <johnw> | It really lives up to the saying "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the somewhat OK at least it's not XML with a schema" |
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| 19:31:25 | <darkling> | Having a schema is good. |
| 19:31:30 | <darkling> | XML... less so. :) |
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| 19:35:54 | <[exa]> | oh wow there's `lodashMerge :: Value -> Value -> Value` |
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| 19:37:30 | <EvanR> | "lodash" ? |
| 19:37:56 | <[exa]> | from the javascript _ library |
| 19:38:16 | <EvanR> | underscore? |
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| 19:39:01 | <EvanR> | funny oblique reference |
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| 21:38:00 | <jackdk> | [exa]: consider https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lens-aeson-1.2.3/docs/Data-Aeson-Lens.html |
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| 21:46:11 | <ncf> | jackdk: how does that help with merging objects? |
| 21:46:43 | <ncf> | i guess you mean in general |
| 21:47:01 | <jackdk> | ncf: Yeah more that rather than patching one object over another |
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| 21:48:05 | <ncf> | i had implemented that at some point as merge (Object a) (Object b) = Object (a <> b) |
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| 21:55:54 | <jackdk> | Do you want to be replacing or appending when there's a collision at a key? |
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| 22:05:23 | <ncf> | glguy: where did Data.List.Split.Lens go? https://github.com/ekmett/lens/commit/0ea7d4dbdaef7a44f6cd8a5fbfd20e3d450b0b37 |
| 22:07:19 | <glguy> | I don't remember if anyone made a new package for that or not |
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| 22:11:11 | <jackdk> | If a package for it exists, it's not one that Hoogle has indexed. |
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| 22:17:55 | <[exa]> | jackdk: valid point with lensing it, thx |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-10-13.