Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2023-10-21 (liberachat/#haskell)

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01:59:04 <Inst> can i ask a quick question about Parsec?
01:59:12 <Inst> Parsec can't resume parsing after incomplete input, right?
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02:16:40 <EvanR> you might be able to defensively save and yield the parser state if early EOF is encountered, which sounds like a hack. attoparsec API allows resuming directly
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02:25:21 <Inst> i'm thinking about joke solutions to the exact parser problem, which bodigrim seems to be indicating isn't really necessary
02:25:39 <Inst> one joke solution is simply to feed data to the parser at the same time you're logging it
02:26:07 <Inst> then once data is yielded, tuple together the parser output and the log
02:26:26 <Inst> WriterT ParserT, eh?
02:26:40 <EvanR> :k WriterT
02:26:40 <lambdabot> * -> (* -> *) -> * -> *
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02:27:30 <Inst> spiritually
02:29:29 <EvanR> attoparsec supports Text now so
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02:35:42 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> i mean, something done over the existing cabal parser
02:35:48 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> it's a "peasant" solution
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03:37:14 <random-jellyfish> are transformer neural networks pure functions?
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03:38:13 <random-jellyfish> or do they need to modify some global state?
03:39:12 <danza_> any stateful computation can be modeled in terms of pure functions, but i am not familiar with transformer networks
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03:41:15 <random-jellyfish> I don't underatand how in context learning works, where is the learned information from one prompt stored so that it can be used with the next prompt?
03:41:38 <random-jellyfish> are the some internal parameters that get changed with each prompt?
03:42:01 <EvanR> passing and returning state can also be modeled as taking the entire history of the dialog as argument
03:42:21 <EvanR> (and not returning the updated state because it's redundant)
03:42:34 <random-jellyfish> EvanR: yeah that was the other scenario I was thinking about
03:43:27 <random-jellyfish> so when I talk to chatgpt with every prompt I send the entire history of the dialog is sent all over again?
03:43:54 <danza_> i doubt chatgpt is purely functional
03:44:05 <EvanR> probably not but they could have done it that way if no one cared about performance
03:44:25 <random-jellyfish> and the learned information is "stored" in the replies it gives me?
03:44:44 <random-jellyfish> the openai python api seems to work that way
03:44:45 <EvanR> the learned information would not be stored, but derived from history every time
03:44:52 <danza_> there are probably more efficient ways to do purely functional machine learning
03:45:45 <danza_> functional does not mean there is no state
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03:46:00 <random-jellyfish> I looked at the transformer nn architecture, I can't find any mutable state
03:46:17 <random-jellyfish> the changes happen during backpropagation training
03:46:20 <EvanR> i thought the NN itself is the state
03:46:33 <random-jellyfish> but in inference mode the weights remain unchanged
03:46:54 <random-jellyfish> yet it can still "learn" stuff during inference
03:47:10 <EvanR> maybe old questions are provided as input like you said
03:47:20 <EvanR> if there's really no other changes
03:47:31 <danza_> if it learns, there ought to be some change
03:48:01 <random-jellyfish> yeah I think so too, most likely, it's the history
03:48:10 <EvanR> not necessarily, since part of NN is predicting what you might even ask next
03:48:30 <danza_> oh i see what you mean
03:49:22 <EvanR> "are transformer neural networks pure functions" is a great question, I don't know. But the answer would answer everything we discussed up to this point
03:49:57 <danza_> maybe we can distinguish between learning and training here then
03:50:37 <danza_> it's a strange question. A model or an algorithm can be expressed as pure functions or functions with side effects, that's unrelated
03:52:24 <danza_> (or call the others "impure" so that they cannot be mistaken with monadic pure functions)
03:52:40 <random-jellyfish> I think learning is the more general term and it includes training
03:53:03 <random-jellyfish> learning implies some accumulation of information
03:53:29 <danza_> well a trained network can learn about a dialogue without that affecting its training from what you said (weights not changing)
03:53:37 <random-jellyfish> training implies accumulating information by changing some parameters
03:54:15 <random-jellyfish> changing aka fine tuning
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03:58:20 <danza_> anyways, to go in the direction of your question, i think often for machine learning mutable data structures are used, probably for efficiency
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04:01:11 <random-jellyfish> yeah performance oriented implementations you have all the state and weigths preallocated and they will get changed on the fly during inference and training
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04:01:44 <random-jellyfish> you don't want any garbage collection of billion element matrices at runtime lol
04:03:30 <danza_> i think immutable implementations of big matrices do not throw them away at each change, but i don't know the details
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04:05:45 <EvanR> big matrix, you want to reuse an old big matrix you no longer are using
04:05:49 <EvanR> to store results
04:08:31 <danza_> yep
04:09:29 <danza_> i am not very familiar with haskell idioms for mutability. STM?
04:11:19 <EvanR> IOVector xD
04:11:31 <EvanR> ffi to fortran
04:13:20 <danza_> oh there are a lot of libraries with efficient matrices ... in this channel they chat a lot about accelerate recently. I was wondering about a simple abstraction that works in the general case
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04:17:45 <[Leary]> danza_: ST.
04:18:29 <danza_> oh that is it then. Thanks [Leary] ... i seldom do mutability these days
04:19:00 <random-jellyfish> BLAS and LAPACK are great for linear algebra...if only their functions didn't look like assembly language instructions
04:19:36 <danza_> do they have symbolic facilities? I usually think of python or R for linear algebra
04:21:35 <random-jellyfish> I think BLAS and Lapack are the backend of most open source linear algebra libs
04:22:13 <danza_> i don't think python nor R (nor Julia) would use them as a backend
04:22:53 <random-jellyfish> numpy uses them for sure, not sure about Julia and R
04:23:52 <danza_> oh cool, i thought numpy had its own implementations
04:24:08 <danza_> lemme check the project
04:24:12 <random-jellyfish> nah, even Julia uses them I see
04:24:45 <random-jellyfish> some libs use Intel's mkl, but mkl is closed source
04:25:32 <danza_> wow. These projects are so buried behind other frontends
04:26:48 <danza_> turns out we are all running on fortran
04:27:28 <danza_> thanks random-jellyfish, that was instructive
04:28:32 <random-jellyfish> danza_: no problem
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06:01:24 <hololeap> GHC.IO.Encoding.getFileSystemEncoding returns `IO TextEncoding`, but how would I use that to convert a ByteString to a String?
06:02:31 <danza__> interesting question. I thought text encoding was specific to files
06:04:38 <hololeap> I'm trying to use linux-inotify, and currently I need to convert the ByteString returned by `name` to a FilePath (String): https://hackage.haskell.org/package/linux-inotify-0.3.0.2/docs/System-Linux-Inotify.html#t:Event
06:04:53 <hololeap> it says: The proper Haskell interpretation of this seems to be to use getFileSystemEncoding and then unpack it to a String or decode it using the text package.
06:06:03 <danza__> i see it is a path
06:08:05 <danza__> this seems a bit convoluted
06:08:35 <danza__> mkTextDecoder here https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/9.4.2/docs/libraries/base-4.17.0.0/GHC-IO-Encoding.html#t:TextEncoding
06:09:20 <danza__> TextDecoder is just an alias for BufferCodec https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/9.4.2/docs/libraries/base-4.17.0.0/GHC-IO-Encoding.html
06:10:03 <danza__> and there is an `encode` on BufferCodec that works also for decoding if you read the types
06:10:24 <hololeap> I might end up just using Data.Text.Encoding.decodeUtf8
06:11:17 <danza__> hehe yes probably easier ... i haven't even finished the chain of functions i think ...
06:11:27 <hololeap> danza__: the problem is that the GHC module is using some Buffer wrapper as opposed to the more familiar ByteString and String types
06:12:04 <danza__> yeah i am also not familiar with those types
06:12:38 <hololeap> there's basically 0% chance that the paths will be anything other than ASCII so decodeUtf8 should be safe
06:13:10 <hololeap> but I wanted to see if anyone knew what the linux-inotify docs were trying to say
06:13:38 <danza__> the docs sound like they are not sure either...
06:14:30 <danza__> anyways it depends on whether you are coding for yourself or you plan to release that i guess
06:14:50 <hololeap> I plan on releasing it, but it's definitely not critical software
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06:15:30 <hololeap> if someone hits an issue with decoding on their system I can go back and look at this
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06:59:18 <[Leary]> hololeap: The advice there looks outdated; this `ByteString` probably ought to be an `OsPath`. If you run it through `fromBytes` (exposed internals, not sure if there's a better option) then you can use `decodeFS` or `decodeWith`.
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07:18:26 <danza__> maybe poke the maintainers with an issue about that doc then hololeap, if you don't mind
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08:10:15 <Square> can I make a newtype of Int and keep Num instances for arithmetic and relational operators?
08:10:29 <Square> ...easily
08:11:47 <Square> oh, found it. GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving
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08:15:11 <Guest7> Hello, how to extract the Shape of a Tree, and be able to reconstruct it again with a list of values and a Shape?
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08:16:34 <danza__> are you referring to a precise Tree type Guest7? Would you mind pasting the link here?
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08:16:58 <Guest7> Yes, but I was wonderting is there is one solution for all
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08:19:05 <danza__> there is probably a solution for all Tree and Shape, once we will know which Tree and Shape are you talking about
08:19:16 <[Leary]> You can do this for an arbitrary Traversable, which most trees are. The real question is, why would you want to?
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08:26:09 <Guest7> https://github.com/smoge/haskMus/blob/main/src/Music/Time/Rtm.hs
08:27:09 <Guest7> data RtmValue
08:27:10 <Guest7>   = RtmNote Int
08:27:10 <Guest7>   | RtmRest Int
08:27:11 <Guest7>   | RtmLeaf Int RtmProportions
08:27:11 <Guest7>   deriving (Eq, Ord, Show)
08:27:12 <Guest7> data RtmProportions =
08:27:12 <Guest7>   RtmProportions [RtmValue]
08:27:13 <Guest7>   deriving (Eq, Ord, Show)
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08:31:39 <danza__> thanks. I find no Tree nor Shape there
08:32:00 <danza__> ArrayShape maybe?
08:34:16 <Guest7> it's a tree like structure, nested. What is ArrayShape? APL inspired Array?
08:37:52 <danza__> not sure, just the thing i found in your code that was closer to the Shape type you mentioned
08:38:30 <danza__> so yes, types are shaped like trees, but you mentioned Tree and Shape and uppercase like that they seem types
08:39:03 <Guest7> Yes, do you know implementation of Shape representing the structure of a tree-like structure?
08:42:11 <danza__> usually i would get that with a parametric type. If you have ... i will play with the interpreter a bit
08:42:37 <danza__> % data Value i = Note i | Rest i | Leaf i Char
08:42:38 <yahb2> <no output>
08:42:51 <danza__> i used `Char` instead of `Proportions`
08:43:30 <danza__> well in that case i guess you have the "shape" outside the tree
08:45:12 <Guest7> I was trying something like this:
08:45:12 <Guest7> -- >>> rtm = RtmProportions [RtmNote 5, RtmLeaf 2 (RtmProportions [RtmNote 6, RtmRest 4]), RtmRest 3]
08:45:13 <Guest7> -- >>> toRtmArray rtm
08:45:13 <Guest7> -- RtmArray [5,2,6,-4,-3] (Vector [Scalar,Vector [Scalar,Vector [Scalar,Scalar]],Scalar])
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08:46:37 <Guest7> makes sense?
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08:47:39 <[Leary]> The best representation of the structure of a tree is the tree itself.
08:49:05 <danza_> seems to make sense anyway, why not, depends what you want to achieve
08:51:01 <Guest7> Yes, but it's not working correctly. I was wondering if there is a better way to do, or a library to help with this.
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08:54:27 <Rembane> Guest7: What's the intended behaviour? And what's the actual behaviour?
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11:50:37 <roger_> hi!
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14:50:08 <yin> how do i write (λpq.ppq) and (λpq.pqp) in haskell>
14:50:17 <yin> ?
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14:50:42 <tromp> p p q won't typee-check
14:50:48 <yin> no it won't
14:51:30 <yin> iiuc it's because i would need some kind of recursive type?
14:51:31 <tromp> of course you could have data Lambda = Abs ... | App ... | Var ...
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14:53:20 <[Leary]> % :t \p q -> p p q
14:53:21 <yahb2> <interactive>:1:11: error: ; • Couldn't match expected type ‘t’ with actual type ‘t -> t1 -> t2’ ; ‘t’ is a rigid type variable bound by ; the inferred type of it :: (t -> t1 -> t...
14:53:33 <[Leary]> % newtype T a b = T{ ($$) :: T a b -> a -> b }
14:53:33 <yahb2> <no output>
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14:53:47 <[Leary]> % :t \p q -> (p $$ p) q
14:53:47 <yahb2> \p q -> (p $$ p) q :: forall {a} {b}. T a b -> a -> b
14:55:38 <yin> i don't think i can wrap my head around that by myself
14:55:40 <yin> let me try
15:01:18 <[Leary]> yin: `T t1 t2` is a solution (sans wrappers) to the equation `t = t -> t1 -> t2` that the type checker is complaining about being unable to solve.
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15:07:19 <yin> what about \p q -> p q p ?
15:08:21 <[Leary]> % :t \p q -> p q p
15:08:21 <yahb2> <interactive>:1:13: error: ; • Couldn't match expected type ‘t1’ ; with actual type ‘t -> t1 -> t2’ ; ‘t1’ is a rigid type variable bound by ; the inferred type ...
15:09:07 <[Leary]> So for this, you want to solve `t1 = t -> t1 -> t2` instead.
15:12:43 <yin> ok let me try to figure it out
15:16:47 <yin> [Leary]: https://paste.jrvieira.com/1697901399353 ?
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15:18:43 <yin> oh, no
15:18:55 <yin> should be `a -> AND a b -> b`
15:18:56 <yin> right?
15:20:16 <yin> https://paste.jrvieira.com/1697901614713
15:22:27 <[Leary]> Looks right to me.
15:24:47 <yin> i can just do `newtype T a b = T { ($$) :: T a b -> T a b -> T a b }` ?
15:27:34 <int-e> You can, but how do you ever inspect such a value?
15:27:43 <[Leary]> Err. You can do `newtype LC = LC (LC -> LC)` (which your type is equivalent to) and indeed encode arbitrary lambda calculus terms, but good luck doing anything useful with this representation.
15:30:04 <int-e> You can inject exceptions (using unsafePerformIO) and get some insight into such terms but it gets very convoluted quickly.
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15:38:40 <[Leary]> % lcfix :: (a -> a) -> a; lcfix = unsafeCoerce $ LC \f -> (LC \x -> f $$ (x $$ x)) $$ (LC \x -> f $$ (x $$ x))
15:38:41 <yahb2> <interactive>:9:51: error: ; Unexpected lambda expression in function application: ; \ f -> (LC \ x -> f $$ (x $$ x)) $$ (LC \ x -> f $$ (x $$ x)) ; You could write it with parenthe...
15:38:51 <[Leary]> % :set -BlockArguments
15:38:52 <yahb2> Some flags have not been recognized: -BlockArguments
15:38:55 <[Leary]> % :set -XBlockArguments
15:38:56 <yahb2> <no output>
15:38:58 <[Leary]> % lcfix :: (a -> a) -> a; lcfix = unsafeCoerce $ LC \f -> (LC \x -> f $$ (x $$ x)) $$ (LC \x -> f $$ (x $$ x))
15:38:58 <yahb2> <no output>
15:39:07 <[Leary]> % lcfix (\lucas a b -> a:lucas b (a + b)) 0 1
15:39:07 <yahb2> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,17711,28657,46368,75025,121393,196418,317811,514229,832040,1346269,2178309,3524578,5702887,9227465,14930352,24157817,3908...
15:39:19 <[Leary]> Correction: when there's a will, there's a way.
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15:45:38 <yin> nice
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15:50:10 <yin> % lcfix' :: (a -> a) -> a; lcfix' = unsafeCoerce $ LC \f -> (LC \x -> x $$ x) $$ (LC \x -> f $$ (x $$ x))
15:50:11 <yahb2> <no output>
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15:50:34 <yin> % lcfix' (\lucas a b -> a:lucas b (a + b)) 0 1
15:50:34 <yahb2> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,17711,28657,46368,75025,121393,196418,317811,514229,832040,1346269,2178309,3524578,5702887,9227465,14930352,24157817,3908...
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15:53:32 <yin> % lcfix' (\lucas a b -> a:lucas b (a + b)) 2 1 -- for consistency
15:53:32 <yahb2> [2,1,3,4,7,11,18,29,47,76,123,199,322,521,843,1364,2207,3571,5778,9349,15127,24476,39603,64079,103682,167761,271443,439204,710647,1149851,1860498,3010349,4870847,7881196,12752043,20633239,33385282,...
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15:58:47 <audio> i was here years ago and remember you guys being interesting people
15:58:50 <audio> is that still the case?
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16:07:46 <monochrom> I think I am still interesting, and more interesting than before. >:)
16:08:08 <dolio> Hmm, I don't know...
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16:08:33 <monochrom> Self assessments need to be biased!
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16:14:29 <shapr> @quote
16:14:29 <lambdabot> mauke_ says: sin x / n = six / 1 = 6
16:14:33 <shapr> audio: maybe?
16:14:49 <shapr> audio: what do you consider interesting?
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16:29:43 <yin> how do i import the list type when i have NoImplicitPrelude?
16:31:48 <monochrom> I think the list type is always there as syntax. I haven't checked.
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16:37:11 <yin> you're right it seems
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17:14:37 <Unicorn_Princess> hmmm... what's the consensus on prefixing query functions with verbs? like `isEven` vs `even`, or `takeFirstWord` vs `firstWord`?
17:14:59 <Unicorn_Princess> the versions without verbs seem more elegant and concise, but i suspect it leads to confusion...
17:15:35 <geekosaur> :t even
17:15:36 <lambdabot> Integral a => a -> Bool
17:15:43 <geekosaur> base likes the prefix-less ones
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17:16:37 <geekosaur> well, that's not entirely true, but I think the exceptions are when the unprefixed ones don't work
17:16:46 <geekosaur> :t Data.Maybe.isNothing
17:16:47 <lambdabot> Maybe a -> Bool
17:17:41 <Unicorn_Princess> System.Directory and .FilePath mostly use the prefixed ones
17:18:28 <Unicorn_Princess> i often want to name variables/parameters the same as unprefixed functions, too
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17:25:38 <EvanR> Unicorn_Princess, I brought this up at some point. Functions aren't always verbs
17:25:48 <EvanR> haskell has lots of parts of speech
17:26:39 <EvanR> maybe IO actions are always verbs because imperative programming
17:27:10 <dolio> They aren't.
17:28:39 <Unicorn_Princess> unrelated, if i installed my haskell stuff with ghcup, do i still need to run `cabal update`? and if i don't specify a version in mypackage.cabal, what determines which version it uses, or which are available? i notice i'm not always getting the latest that is on hackage
17:29:01 <mauke> open, put, get, close
17:29:05 <mauke> imperative
17:29:21 <dolio> directoryContents
17:29:32 <EvanR> open could be an adjective and fork could be a noun xD
17:29:41 <ncf> isn't it getDirectoryContents
17:29:43 <mauke> square root, even, ord, chr -- declarative
17:29:46 <dolio> Oh, is it?
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17:30:12 <ncf> i like that adverbs modify verbs, i.e. atomically :: STM a → IO a
17:30:19 <EvanR> ^
17:30:24 <sclv> Unicorn_Princess: `cabal update` should be run to update the _hackage index_ -- ghcup runs it for you on install, but you need to run it periodically to update the view of hackage.
17:30:35 <mauke> atomically is badly named and should be something like runSTM
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17:31:02 <EvanR> atomically rocks
17:31:08 <sclv> the version used is determined by cabal running a solver that attempts to use the latest compatible version with otherwise-constrained libraries -- e.g. the version of base that is builtin to the ghc you have installed, etc.
17:31:16 <mauke> alternatively, STM should be renamed to Atomically or something
17:31:39 <sclv> `run` is usually reserved for functions of the form `m a -> a`
17:31:50 <sclv> or which take some other arguments, but eventually yield something of that form
17:32:02 <mauke> :t runReaderT
17:32:03 <lambdabot> ReaderT r m a -> r -> m a
17:32:27 <Unicorn_Princess> sclv, thanks!
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17:32:43 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> I'd see functions as verbs and non-function values as nouns.
17:32:46 <mauke> the point is that there is no way to run an STM computation non-atomically
17:33:05 <mauke> but the existence of 'atomically' suggests that there is
17:33:09 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> You can noun a verb by wrapping it in a newtype, or putting it into a container.
17:33:10 <geekosaur> note that that also works in the other direction, you can specify a timestamp to `cabal update` to set the Hackage view to the one current at that time
17:34:12 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> verb a noun with const? :)
17:35:01 <sclv> :t flip runReader
17:35:02 <lambdabot> r -> Reader r c -> c
17:35:05 <sclv> :-P
17:36:22 <EvanR> but also atomically emphasizes that you are running the action atomically while runSTM doesn't as much, though it contains a T for transaction it's not as in-your-face
17:36:48 <EvanR> and atomic stuff should be in your face!
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17:38:32 <mauke> for me it had the opposite effect
17:39:34 <mauke> because I was relying on atomicity when putting together critical parts of my STM actions, but I couldn't find a way to use 'atomically' in STM because it would only return IO
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17:40:04 <mauke> so I kept worrying that someone might inadvertently use my actions non-atomically and break invariants
17:40:28 <mauke> until I realized that 'atomically' is misnamed and the part that guarantees atomicity is STM itself, not the run function
17:43:12 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> if then else vs guards for only 1 cond: which is better on function definition level?
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17:47:21 <EvanR> I only use if then else if it's very small and readable
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17:55:36 <monochrom> Every case is different.
17:56:51 <monochrom> I am not afraid of choosing one way that looks nice here-and-now, and changing to the other way in the future if there needs change.
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18:54:01 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> If then else still has utility if you're writing a pure expression, for instance, putStrLn (if foo == bar then "OK" else "Error")
18:54:26 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> or that could be written as putStrLn $ if foo == bar then "OK" else "Error"
18:55:03 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> Also, why is coerce unreliable?
18:55:35 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> I'm trying to get it to open a newtype, but it turns out it can't figure out how to coerce into Vector (Vector Bool) for a for_ HOF, and requires type annotations
18:55:59 <EvanR> the parentheses version looks much better from here
18:56:28 <EvanR> if then else works fine on IO actions
18:56:35 <EvanR> also
18:56:46 <mauke> % putStrLn if 1 == 2 then "OK" else "Error"
18:56:46 <yahb2> Error
18:57:18 <EvanR> mind blown
18:57:27 <mauke> blog arguments
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18:57:52 <Inst> % {-# LANGUAGE BlockArguments #-}
18:57:53 <yahb2> <no output>
18:58:10 <Inst> % putStrLn if 1 == 2 then "OK" else "Error"
18:58:11 <yahb2> Error
18:58:30 <monochrom> Unpopular opinion: MultiwayIf is also pretty nifty.
18:58:47 <Inst> ^^^
18:58:51 <monochrom> It looks like guards but it's an expression.
18:59:22 <mauke> % [putStrLn "OK", putStrLn "Error"] !! fromEnum (1 == 2) -- who needs if
18:59:22 <yahb2> OK
18:59:50 <monochrom> Ugh haha
19:00:05 <EvanR> install aviary and use combinators
19:00:19 <Inst> newConway | 0 `elem` [cols, rows] = conway | otherwise = ...
19:00:27 <monochrom> Darn I have also needed a {false,true}->{0,1} function and I forgot that fromEnum does it. :)
19:00:34 monochrom goes change his code!
19:00:51 <mauke> % [putStrLn "OK", putStrLn "Error"] !! unsafeCoerce (1 == 2) -- who needs fromEnum
19:00:52 <yahb2> *** Exception: Prelude.!!: index too large
19:00:54 <mauke> aww
19:01:09 <mauke> right, I forgot
19:01:29 <EvanR> so I dare ask how that was supposed to work
19:01:57 <mauke> it works in C!
19:02:10 <Inst> you just made me crash my GHCI :(
19:02:19 <EvanR> I don't know how that explains it or if it even is true xD
19:02:35 <monochrom> Ah I see, I wanted the 0 and 1 to be Double.
19:03:10 <EvanR> !! [0.0, 1.0] !! fromEnum (1 == 2)
19:03:16 <EvanR> or something
19:03:27 <mauke> newtype Bool = Bool Double; true = Bool 1; false = Bool 0
19:03:38 <Inst> % unsafeCoerce True :: Int
19:03:39 <yahb2> -576460205259816976
19:03:49 <Inst> % unsafeCoerce True :: Word
19:03:49 <yahb2> 17870283868449734640
19:03:57 <Inst> % unsafeCoerce True :: Int
19:03:58 <yahb2> -576460205259816976
19:04:20 <EvanR> you can't handle the truth
19:04:55 <EvanR> (with unsafeCoerce)
19:05:42 <monochrom> An Insecure Truth
19:05:53 <mauke> % unsafeCoerce False :: Maybe ()
19:05:54 <yahb2> Nothing
19:06:00 <mauke> ah, that looks promising
19:06:05 <monochrom> @quote monochrom unsafeCoerce
19:06:05 <lambdabot> monochrom says: isTrue = (unsafeCoerce :: Either a b -> Bool) . (unsafeCoerce :: Maybe c -> Either a b) . (unsafeCoerce :: Bool -> Maybe c)
19:07:19 <mauke> % maybe (putStrLn "Error") (\ ~()-> putStrLn "OK") (unsafeCoerce (1 == 2))
19:07:19 <yahb2> Error
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19:10:39 <EvanR> :t coerce
19:10:40 <lambdabot> error:
19:10:40 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: coerce
19:10:40 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘coerced’ (imported from Control.Lens)
19:11:01 <tomsmeding> % :t Data.Coerce.coerce
19:11:01 <yahb2> Data.Coerce.coerce :: Coercible a b => a -> b
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19:12:16 <EvanR> Inst, it's a -> b, it can easily fail to infer a or b due to ambiguity if there's no other type information around. Luckily there's no defaulting
19:13:02 <monochrom> % maybe (putStrLn "Error") (\ ~()-> putStrLn "OK") (unsafeCoerce (1 == 1))
19:13:02 <yahb2> OK
19:13:20 <monochrom> That is awesome and awful at the same time. :)
19:13:26 <tomsmeding> % maybe (putStrLn "Error") (\(Just _) -> putStrLn "OK") (unsafeCoerce (1 == 1))
19:13:26 <yahb2> /workdir/entry.sh: line 6: 4 Segmentation fault (core dumped) ghcup --offline run -- ghci Yahb2Defs.hs 2>&1
19:13:30 <tomsmeding> :D
19:13:33 <tomsmeding> % 42
19:13:34 <yahb2> Oops, something went wrong
19:13:35 <tomsmeding> % 42
19:13:36 <yahb2> 42
19:13:41 <tomsmeding> okay it's alive again
19:14:11 <tomsmeding> I love how that shell output just ends up in irc -- it makes sense given how the thing is set up
19:14:34 <EvanR> you cause yahb2 to shatter into a million pieces. Then they liquid metal reformed via advanced-for-the-time special effects
19:15:37 <monochrom> Sorry!
19:16:06 <tomsmeding> monochrom: why are you apologising?
19:16:20 <monochrom> For inspiring how to crash yahb2 :)
19:16:24 <tomsmeding> :p
19:16:51 <mauke> https://infosec.exchange/@barubary/111271784359087322
19:17:17 <monochrom> :)
19:17:39 <tomsmeding> I wonder why they specifically called out haskell
19:17:59 <EvanR> and that's why we have the sense of => backwards in type class / instance definitions
19:18:15 <monochrom> But Bool's <= is stricter than necessary. False `implies` undefined could be True rather than bottoming out.
19:18:50 <tomsmeding> hence they should have used C or JS or whatever as an example, where that's not an issue :p
19:18:55 <monochrom> I think because other languages either have no real Bool or do not order Bool.
19:18:58 <EvanR> > False <= True
19:18:59 <lambdabot> True
19:19:03 <EvanR> > False <= undefined
19:19:05 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.undefined
19:19:15 <EvanR> yeah but should False really be ordered earlier than bottom
19:19:34 <EvanR> "who ordered that"
19:19:36 <geekosaur> it's not ordering, it's laziness
19:19:43 <monochrom> No, in C both 1 and -1 (and 2 and -2 and...) are true. You don't have a reliable false <= true.
19:19:53 <monochrom> You don't even have true == true heh
19:19:55 <tomsmeding> #include <stdbool.h>
19:19:57 <EvanR> "False <= undefined could be True"
19:20:03 <tomsmeding> monochrom: you have true == true
19:20:19 <geekosaur> yes, because you only need to see the Fslse
19:20:20 <tomsmeding> you just don't have that !!x && !!y implies x == y
19:20:28 <geekosaur> *False
19:20:28 <EvanR> it could also be False
19:20:31 <monochrom> Right OK.
19:21:23 <monochrom> && and || are already conditionally non-strict in the 2nd argument. I would implement implies to be like that too.
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19:21:51 <monochrom> I don't mean everyone should accept it, but socially many people may expect it.
19:21:52 <geekosaur> that's my take as well
19:22:14 <geekosaur> once you see the first argument is False, you don't care about the second
19:22:19 <tomsmeding> !a || b is lazy enough
19:22:30 <mauke> why shouldn't minBound <= _ = True everywhere?
19:22:35 <monochrom> I hate !a || b :)
19:22:43 <tomsmeding> doesn't handle 'undefined => True', but then neither ooes (||)
19:22:45 <tomsmeding> *does
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19:24:13 <monochrom> mauke: Along the same line, why shouldn't 0 * _ = 0 almost everywhere? :)
19:26:02 <mauke> > undefined ^ 0
19:26:04 <lambdabot> 1
19:26:09 <monochrom> <3
19:26:24 <mauke> > undefined ^ 0 <3
19:26:26 <lambdabot> True
19:26:33 <monochrom> :(
19:27:18 <tomsmeding> :p
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19:33:25 <EvanR> :[]
19:33:39 <tomsmeding> Ö
19:33:50 <mauke> ö_ö
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21:46:28 <Unicorn_Princess> hm. when chaining pure and monadic computations, e.g. to modify a file with `readFile file <&> fixContents >>= writeFile file`, one has to mix a bunch of different chaining operators, i.e. <&> and >>= in this case. i there some category theory magic that can simplify this? the conduit package looks promising
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21:53:51 <ncf> i'm not sure what kind of simplification you're after, but note that you can reassociate that to >>=/>>> instead of <&>/>>=
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21:56:52 <Unicorn_Princess> https://github.com/snoyberg/conduit#readme has nice examples for what i have in mind
21:57:29 <Unicorn_Princess> how would i jam >>> in there btw? i know very little about arrows
21:58:29 <ncf> readFile file >>= (fixContents >>> writeFile file)
21:58:47 <ncf> where (>>>) = flip (.)
21:59:41 <geekosaur> I think that's essentially the one from Control.Category, not the one from Control.Arrow
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22:01:00 <tomsmeding> Unicorn_Princess: `readFile file >>= (return . fixContents) >>= writeFile file` ?
22:01:36 <Unicorn_Princess> yeah that works, but return is ugly there :P
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22:05:31 <Unicorn_Princess> hmmm, it's midnight here, i better put away arrows for now
22:08:15 <Inst> `readFile file >>= writeFile file . fixContents
22:09:43 <Unicorn_Princess> gross. loses the left-to-right flow of data
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22:10:04 <Inst> you can verticalize it
22:10:08 <Inst> readFile
22:10:14 <Inst> >>= writeFile file . fixContents
22:10:29 <Unicorn_Princess> i prefer the version with <&> for now
22:11:11 <Inst> also, tbh, having to use different pure and monadic chaining operators isn't necessarily a bad thing, because they help give hints as to what the functions do
22:11:25 <geekosaur> ^
22:12:32 <Inst> arguably foo =<< bar is less smelly than foo(bar()) because you at least have annotations to point out what's effectful and what's not
22:13:06 <Inst> as well as indicate an order of effects
22:14:09 <Inst> i'm incredibly depressed, just put together my first game of life, and it's mesmerizing :(
22:14:21 <Inst> but missing so many features!
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22:30:41 <EvanR> to uniformize and potentially make it harder to understand you can use <=< everywhere
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23:13:57 <probie> Why not use `(.)` from Control.Category everywhere (along with `Control.Arrow`)
23:14:07 <probie> runKleisli (Kleisli (writeFile file) . arr fixContents . Kleisli readFile) file
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23:15:27 <probie> (which I guess is morally `>=>` or `<=<` everywhere)
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23:16:52 <EvanR> yeah basically, that's even more uniform and more confusing xD
23:17:18 <EvanR> different categories at different places in the line of code
23:18:16 <Unicorn_Princess> is it just me or is the haskell LSP incredibly janky? on emacs with lsp-haskell, it seems to work, like, 30% of the time :|
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23:32:38 <geekosaur> works well for me but I use VSCode
23:33:45 <Unicorn_Princess> what does vscode use under the hood for haskell?
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23:34:22 <geekosaur> it uses the same LSP but has its own built-in LSP support code rather than the LSP support library emacs uses
23:34:29 <geekosaur> which might be a bit dubious
23:35:10 <Unicorn_Princess> hm. iirc the lsp for rust felt very solid in emacs, which uses the same (i think?) glue code...
23:35:42 <Unicorn_Princess> ah no there are some specialized packages in-between. hm
23:36:31 <Unicorn_Princess> maybe tomorrow. goodnight
23:36:40 <geekosaur> yeh, it uses lsp-rust-servcer instead of lsp-mode
23:36:49 <Unicorn_Princess> wait what
23:37:20 <Unicorn_Princess> i only have rustic in my emacs init file for rust
23:37:22 <probie> In my experience, most of the headaches come from hls, since it's rather picky about what GHC versions its used with. I haven't had too many problems with `lsp-mode` itself
23:38:13 <geekosaur> there's a separate one for rustic, yeh
23:38:32 <Unicorn_Princess> nah it's too late for this rabbit hole. goodnight!
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23:39:21 <geekosaur> I have more trouble with rust-analyzer in vscode, for some reason it insists my xmonad config dir needs a cargo config file
23:39:48 <geekosaur> (no, my rust stuff isn't even on the same drive, idiot)
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All times are in UTC on 2023-10-21.