Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2023-10-25 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:07 <monochrom> in which case "selectable" would be what I called "Selective".
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00:06:17 <davean> EvanR: Absolutely
00:06:32 <EvanR> how do you make a custom selectable
00:06:36 <davean> monochrom: Oh I meant POSIX "select" callable
00:06:47 <davean> EvanR: pipe/socket or any filehandle
00:07:04 <davean> This is how the RTS even talks to its self
00:07:11 <EvanR> so make a custom pipe, socket, filehandle, like hack the kernel?
00:07:22 <davean> No? There is no hacking here?
00:07:28 <davean> This is basic POSIX
00:07:36 <EvanR> make a custom fd... and do what with it
00:08:00 <Inst> there, finally figured it out
00:08:06 <geekosaur> give it to the IO manager. C writes to it, the IO manager wakes up the associated thread
00:08:29 <EvanR> what is the true name of this IO manager so I may access it
00:08:33 <geekosaur> look at `threadWaitRead`
00:08:51 <monochrom> It is just called "the IO manager" :)
00:09:10 <EvanR> > \fd -> (the IO manager) fd
00:09:11 <lambdabot> error:
00:09:11 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: the :: t0 -> t1 -> t -> t2error: Data constructor...
00:09:15 <Inst> after backporting the Haskell into Python, the answer, it seems, for this problem, is just use a lambda that injects values into a list
00:09:22 <monochrom> But you can find it in https://github.com/takenobu-hs/haskell-ghc-illustrated
00:09:27 <Inst> then use applicative functions to apply it to the random generator
00:09:31 <Inst> so the lambda is essentially pure
00:10:02 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.2.5/docs/html/libraries/base-4.16.4.0/GHC-Event.html is the lowest level implementation, but threadWaitRead and threadWaitWrite are the lowest levels you would find in a normal Haskell program
00:10:10 <monochrom> But yeah the high-level thing to do is threadWaitRead.
00:10:39 <EvanR> GHC.Conc.IO.threadWaitRead
00:10:41 <jackdk> EvanR: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gdp-0.0.3.0/docs/Data-The.html#v:the
00:11:28 <EvanR> hahaha
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00:19:53 <jackdk> Ghosts of departed proofs is such a cool paper
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00:24:27 <Umeaboy> Hi! This might sound very stupid, but row/line 146 in this spec file clearly says to place the resulting files in /opt/, but when I reach to the end of the build it fails to create the package due to finding installed but unpackaged files which is NOT in /opt/
00:24:42 <Umeaboy> Am I stupid or is this spec file wrongly written?
00:24:52 <Umeaboy> https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file/openSUSE:Factory/ghc-bootstrap/ghc-bootstrap.spec?expand=1
00:25:26 <Umeaboy> I have compared to other spec files and they say the same under the %files part which is /opt/
00:25:43 <Umeaboy> I could use some help correcting this.
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00:27:17 <geekosaur> shouldn't that be asked of SuSE package developers, rather than Haskellers?
00:27:50 <geekosaur> I mean, I'm probably the only one here who knows about SuSE's version of spec files, and that knowledge is 15 years out of date
00:28:21 <Umeaboy> geekosaur: I just asked in #opensuse as well.
00:28:24 <Umeaboy> :)
00:28:33 <Umeaboy> So already a step ahead of you there.
00:29:15 <Inst> EvanR: the solution you were expecting was a lambda to list, then applicative methods to imbue state, right? I got it fixed that way
00:30:05 <Inst> no IsString, no pures everywhere, just lambda that generates a list being fmapped and <*>-ed into State StdGen
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00:35:38 <monochrom> jackdk: That is interesting. Thanks.
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00:38:06 <jackdk> monochrom: I wish ocharles had written more about GDP-for-authz, because https://blog.ocharles.org.uk/blog/posts/2019-08-09-who-authorized-these-ghosts.html was really promising
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02:30:56 <lockywolf> Can someone point me toward vendored builds with Cabal?
02:31:03 <lockywolf> without network
02:35:03 <sclv> you can use project files to point to local repos
02:35:29 <sclv> either source repos or local file system repos that collect tarballs
02:36:05 <sclv> cf https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.6/installing-packages.html#local-no-index-repositories
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03:28:18 <lockywolf> sclv: but how do I find out which tarballs I need do download?
03:28:51 <sclv> while you’re online you can inspect the cabal.plan
03:29:24 <sclv> also note that once you have a working env, you can go offline and it still works as long as you don’t add new deps
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04:03:02 <narutoman> Naruto Has Ninja Sex with Nuevo Leon Governor Samuel Garcia Naruto Uzumaki visits Monterrey and meets Governor Samuel Garcia and starts a romantic escapade with him. https://tinyurl.com/Narutosass
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04:45:54 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> Matrix mods, cleanup?
04:46:07 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> I guess someone is using my script
04:46:26 <haskellbridge> <I​nst> with different initial parameters
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05:55:27 <dminuoso> lockywolf: davean did some work working with cabal-install in an offline fashion as well.
05:55:39 <dminuoso> It would be really nice if `cabal-install` had some `vendor-deps` command.
06:02:13 <danse-nr3> by "vendor" you mean "offline", or does it entail anything more?
06:04:52 <danse-nr3> i will interpret it as "local"
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06:43:14 <danse-nr3> .oO( maybe in haskell the practice of having a private managing a fork of the dependencies for you is so common that haskellers like "vendor" more )
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06:46:38 <lockywolf> dminuoso: so far this is my best attempt: https://paste.debian.net/1296115/
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08:28:04 <lockywolf> Is there some straightforward way to trim the giant 01-index.tar file and its pals to the packages already downloaded?
08:33:33 <dminuoso> lockywolf: Like I said, dig into what davean built.
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08:34:40 <dminuoso> Dont have my old IRC logs anymore, so I cant figure out the project name
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08:45:16 <mauke> uh oh. I think I just discovered string gaps in Perl
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08:53:42 <mauke> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/trEpgZqb - gaps.pl.lhs
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09:47:13 <lockywolf> seemingly, cracked it
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11:17:58 <Guest|60> hi
11:18:10 <Guest|60> is there anyonoe
11:18:18 <Guest|60> i cant installiram mrtvi huskel
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12:25:09 <naruto69> Read about it! Naruto Has Ninja Sex with Nuevo Leon Governor Samuel Garcia ------ Naruto grinned and formed the seals for a new jutsu he had been working on. "It's called the Ketsuryugan," he explained, "It's like a rasengan, but instead of spinning chakra, it's a concentrated blast of pleasure that stimulates the rectum and prostate." Samuel Garcia's eyebrows shot up in surprise, but he was clearly intrigued. "Sounds interesting. Can you show me
12:25:10 <naruto69> how it works?" https://justpaste.it/Naruto_Makes_Love_Samuel_Garcia
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12:27:02 <mauke> @where ops
12:27:02 <lambdabot> byorgey Cale conal copumpkin dcoutts dibblego dolio edwardk geekosaur glguy jmcarthur johnw mniip monochrom quicksilver shachaf shapr ski
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12:50:10 <stuu22> hi, i have the ominous error ld.lld undefined symbol when trying to compile with cabal on windows (i know, but it has to..). i tried ghc 9.6.2, 9.4.7 and 9.8.1. it works on mac and linux tho. anybody knows about this? the web does not give too much info about this
12:52:26 <stuu22> happens as soon as i try to use aeson in the code. on mac it helped to update to ghc 9.6.2. looks like a linking clang error, but i am not really firm with C/gcc and/or whatever.
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12:59:06 <danse-nr3> stuu22, i am using WSL on windows. It sucks but i would not change it for "no linux at all"
12:59:38 <danse-nr3> i think the linker is missing? So some dependency that is not tracked by haskell. Did you install with ghcup?
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13:00:50 <[exa]> stuu22: which symbol is undefined? (maybe pastebin the whole log)
13:00:59 <mauke> if you're getting an "undefined symbol" error from the linker, then the linker is not missing
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13:03:27 <danse-nr3> true sorry
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13:05:41 <danse-nr3> start of the sprint = skimming through stuff faster! :P
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13:10:58 <stuu22> yes, i installed with ghcup. i like the WSL idea (which i use most of the time on my personal machine), but this one has to run native.
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13:11:19 <stuu22> here is the full log: https://privatebin.net/?1d95cc51613ef84e#Fj4Rpie9nKfZuLkxAk9bQChSZZftiiz9uj4jEM9Fiyor
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13:18:39 <lockywolf> Is there a way to request an improvement to hackage?
13:19:27 <lockywolf> I want to have a link like https://hackage.haskell.org/package/semigroupoids-6.0.0.1/revision/semigroupoids-6.0.0.1-1.cabal
13:20:17 <lockywolf> instead of https://hackage.haskell.org/package/semigroupoids-6.0.0.1/revision/1.cabal
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13:57:44 <Unicorn_Princess> how is cabal repl --repl-options supposed to be used? --ghc-options '-ghci-script "/path/to/script.ghci"' works, but the same with repl-options instead of ghc-options doesn't (no error, just doesn't load the script)
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13:59:18 <Unicorn_Princess> i could be doing path quoting wrong - i'm pretty bad at it
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14:21:34 <danse-nr3> not familiar with those sorry
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14:24:53 <Inst> in record syntax, I can't apply a function to specify the source, right?
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14:27:45 <Unicorn_Princess> i don't understand - elaborate
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14:28:43 <lortabac> Inst: what is the source?
14:29:13 <Inst> say, data Foo = MkFoo {hello :: Int, goodbye :: Int}
14:29:24 <Inst> u :: Foo
14:29:38 <Inst> synonynm = hello
14:29:50 <geekosaur> lockywolf, probably file an issue against hackage-server, it's on cabal and on github
14:29:56 <Inst> synonym = hello
14:30:02 <geekosaur> Inst, no
14:30:04 <Inst> u {hello = 3}
14:30:06 <Inst> derp
14:30:07 <Inst> erm
14:30:13 <Inst> u {synonym = 3}
14:31:06 <geekosaur> field selectors can't be used that way. # syntax or RecordDotSyntax can, by defining the appropriate constraint
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14:31:38 <Inst> # syntax? ?:(
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14:31:51 <geekosaur> foo #"xxx" or foo #xxx
14:32:02 <Inst> wait, when was this added?
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14:32:44 <dminuoso> Inst: Do you mean you want to dynamically resolve the record accessor?
14:32:50 <Inst> yeah
14:33:04 <geekosaur> it's been around a while but I don';t recall when it was added
14:33:05 <dminuoso> TemplateHaskell, or `lens/optics` are your friends then.
14:33:23 <dminuoso> fsvo "friends"
14:33:52 <Inst> "makeLenses" ugh
14:34:18 <dminuoso> Inst: You can also just write out a tag based writer `writeProperty :: FooTag -> Foo -> Int -> Foo` with `data FooTag = TagHello | TagGoodbye`
14:34:27 <dminuoso> Well, you can also write out the lenses manually if you like
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14:35:09 <dminuoso> `lens/optics` is the far more elaborate and generalized approach to aboves `writeProperty`
14:36:56 <Inst> i guess i'll miss this silliness
14:37:09 <Inst> remember why ; was put into C syntax?
14:37:39 <geekosaur> https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.8.1/docs/users_guide/exts/hasfield.html#virtual-record-fields
14:38:14 <dminuoso> Inst: B had it, ALGOL had it, PL/I had it.
14:38:14 <geekosaur> seems to be the only place where # syntaxc is mentioned any more, they're trying really hard to push OverloadedRecordDot instead
14:38:24 <dminuoso> So the semicolon predates C.
14:38:49 <Inst> iirc the point was to avoid copy errors during network transmission in, what, I forget what came even before 14.4kbps modems?
14:39:11 <geekosaur> 110 baud modems with BAUDOT, if you go back far enough
14:39:30 <dminuoso> Im going out on a limb to say that ALGOL 60 is probably the earliest widely adopted language that used the semicolon as statement separation.
14:39:31 <geekosaur> but the avoiding copy errors was done with parity bits, not extra syntax
14:39:59 <geekosaur> sorry, there were 75 baud modems early on too
14:40:08 <dminuoso> Ah, or whatever ALGOL came before that.
14:40:37 <geekosaur> there wasn't an earlier one?
14:40:57 <geekosaur> it's distinguished from ALGOL 68
14:41:16 <dminuoso> There was ALGOL 58 as well.
14:41:25 <geekosaur> oh
14:42:30 <dminuoso> Found one earlier than that.
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14:42:32 <dminuoso> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLOW-MATIC
14:42:54 <dminuoso> Though Im fairly certain whatever language this was burrowed from was forgotten in time.
14:43:06 <Unicorn_Princess> like tears
14:43:09 <Unicorn_Princess> in
14:43:11 <Unicorn_Princess> rain
14:43:14 <Inst> i mean the code reduplication to an extent is relaxing :(
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15:14:41 <EvanR> "repeat your code" not the kind of unpythonic style I was thinking of xD
15:16:12 <Inst> i'm just happy it works, i'm annoyed that even with a lot of time, i'm only dumping 200 lines of trivial (and probably badly written) code per day
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15:22:18 <EvanR> lens gets all the attention now, but at one point there was this https://github.com/haskellcats/semantic-editor-combinators
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15:22:33 <EvanR> that was for Inst
15:22:39 <EvanR> R.I.P.
15:22:45 <yushyin> :D
15:23:08 <geekosaur> fclabels predated them all, I think?
15:23:36 <geekosaur> although they quickly migrated to van Laarhoven after lens came out
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15:28:23 <Inst_> is it possible to test games?
15:28:30 <exarkun> of course
15:28:31 <Inst_> i mean, of course it is, but it's significantly more difficult
15:28:39 <Inst_> to test games, since there's so many valid and obtainable states, no?
15:28:40 <exarkun> more difficult than what
15:28:51 <Inst_> other applications
15:28:58 <Inst_> i'm testing a tower of hanoi i built
15:29:15 <exarkun> what's hard about testing that
15:29:28 <Inst_> I'm trying to test the exit screen when I set N = 9 as default.
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15:30:19 <haskellbridge> <s​m> sometimes you need to build in testability features. Eg a mode where it logs each screen to a readable log file, which you can compare with past runs
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15:31:04 <haskellbridge> <s​m> there's also tools like `expect` for automating interactive terminal I/O (usually not worth the trouble I feel)
15:31:05 <Inst_> I'm more asking about the state of the art in formally verifying games
15:31:10 <EvanR> many games have a debug tool, debug room, cheats, and if you defined a "save" properly you can easily restore the circumstances you're trying to test
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15:31:21 <Inst_> because when you're looking at a complex state machine like this, ummm
15:31:24 <exarkun> "games" as a category are barely more specified than "programs", or maybe not any more specified
15:31:30 <exarkun> so the question is as hard as "how do you test programs"
15:31:35 <EvanR> and of course the more pieces of your game that are purely functional, the easier is it to test that
15:31:50 haskellbridge <s​m> ponders formally verify the exit screen...
15:31:53 <EvanR> putting it all in IO will exclude that
15:33:09 <haskellbridge> <s​m> quickcheck & co might help
15:33:32 <EvanR> if your game involves floating point maths and physical models, you might need to use more brain to "verify" whatever it's supposed to do. But many games don't attempt it, leading to glitches
15:34:19 <Inst_> that's an interesting point, i.e, i probably should make this hanoi more purely functional, use a smaller loop and pass execution purely, instead of closure abuse
15:34:34 <EvanR> yes simple games can usually be functionalized
15:34:39 <Inst_> i'm not sure if you'd call this bad advice, but I told someone who, for some bizarre reason, liked Haskell's laziness but not its purity
15:34:48 <Inst_> just to abuse closures
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15:35:15 <Inst_> everything in IO, only FP is in where clauses
15:36:05 <EvanR> that person is free to insert unsafePerformIOs everywhere and see how they like it
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15:36:24 <Inst_> i think they're trolling because it's such a bizarre response
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15:38:05 <Inst_> i think in the future, for reasonably complex games, it'd be better to feature a more complex record type
15:38:44 <Inst_> IO layer only gets data, outputs data, then passes state enclosing data to a pure function instead
15:38:49 <Inst_> this is just way too tightly coupled
15:38:54 <Inst_> i mean, the way i'm doing it now
15:39:58 <EvanR> :t interact
15:39:59 <lambdabot> (String -> String) -> IO ()
15:40:08 <EvanR> ok that one doesn't allow state.
15:40:42 <EvanR> (String -> s -> (String, s)) -> String -> s -> IO ()
15:40:55 <EvanR> now zork can be purely functional
15:41:11 <EvanR> that's the only IO action
15:41:21 stuu22 is now known as ash3en
15:42:12 <Inst_> brb, smoke, but would be interested in the record signature
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15:51:04 <EvanR> play :: Display -> Color -> Int -> s -> (s -> Picture) -> (Event -> s -> s) -> (Float -> s -> s) -> IO () -- now you have a purely graphical game (with no sound), this is from the gloss package
15:51:16 <EvanR> purely functional graphical game
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15:55:56 <ski> EvanR : is that supposed to be something `unfoldr'y ?
15:56:12 <ski> (your penultimate signature)
15:57:45 <ski> let loop state0 input = ..(loop state remainingInput).. in interact (loop initState) -- this does state, btw
16:01:12 <ski> also, you could refactor `play' into
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16:01:19 <ski> play :: Display -> Color -> Int -> Stuff -> IO ()
16:01:20 <EvanR> penultimate f msg state0 = do { putStrLn msg; input <- getLine; (response, state1) <- f input state0; penultimate f response state1 }
16:01:21 <ski> data Stuff = MkStuff Picture (Event -> Foo) (Float -> Foo)
16:01:40 <ski> (er, s/Foo/Stuff/)
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16:03:39 <EvanR> @src interact
16:03:40 <lambdabot> interact f = do s <- getContents; putStr (f s)
16:05:46 <EvanR> I see, lazy list I/O
16:07:27 <ski> penultimate f msg = interact . loop where loop state0 instream = msg ++ '\n' : case break ('\n' ==) instream of (input,rest) -> let (response,state1) = f input state0 in loop response state1
16:08:03 <ski> (changing `f' back to non-`IO', as in your original signature)
16:09:42 <Unicorn_Princess> (correct me if i'm wrong) library source code goes in myproject/src/, executable source goes in app/MyExe.hs, non-code data files a project needs goes in data/ - but where do random development convenience/install scripts go? dev/? scripts/? tools/?
16:10:16 <Unicorn_Princess> (i know it's all subjective, asking for how it's usually done. guidelines)
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16:10:48 <ski> EvanR : anyway, i just wanted to offer a riposte to "ok that one doesn't allow state."
16:11:13 <EvanR> yeah I got that. Now I'm internalizing the consequences for the style you suggested xD
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16:11:31 ski smiles
16:13:10 <ski> (should i expand on my refactoring of `play', or is it obvious how i arrived at it ?)
16:14:01 <EvanR> if you implement play with just lambda calculus I'll be impressed
16:14:28 <ski> well, `IO's in the type, presumably it's going to use some `IO' primitives
16:14:30 <int-e> . o O ( main :: [Reply] -> [Request] )
16:15:03 ski offers a dialogue as final answer
16:15:54 <EvanR> [Reply] -> [Request] makes my brain explode
16:16:06 <yin> is there a cabal command to add a package as a dependency automatically with version constraints?
16:16:13 <ski> it's related to TyingTheKnot
16:16:46 <int-e> EvanR: I mean it's really the same idea as `interact` except there you have Reply = Request = Char so it's easier to miss the flow when glancing at the type.
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16:17:15 <Unicorn_Princess> yin, don't know, but cabal can automatically give you the version bounds: https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.4/cabal-package.html#generating-dependency-version-bounds
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16:17:26 <ski> @wiki Tying the Knot
16:17:26 <lambdabot> https://wiki.haskell.org/Tying_the_Knot
16:17:30 <EvanR> interact seems to have a more causal behavior
16:18:10 <ski> EvanR : `type Dialogue = [Reply] -> [Request]' is how Haskell originally did I/O
16:18:16 <EvanR> yeah
16:18:33 <EvanR> 1 reply per request
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16:18:45 <ski> that tends to make things simpler, yea
16:19:23 <yin> Unicorn_Princess: ty. it seems like a very small step from this to having it update the cabal file automatically
16:20:07 <ski> the original design for pre-Mercury (Ptah), used a similar idea : `main([Response|Reponses],[Request|Requests]) :- ...', where you'd instantiate `Request' to the action you wanted to perform, and the run-time system would then perform the I/O and instantiation `Response' back with the result
16:20:32 <monochrom> I don't know what "auto add dependency" means. How does it know that I want random-fu?
16:20:34 <ski> Zoltan Somogyi has some paper which talks about this .. i forgot which exact one
16:20:56 <yin> monochrom: cabal add random-fu
16:21:12 <yin> would be a command
16:21:37 <monochrom> OK I think people on the haskell discourse are still talking about that.
16:21:55 <EvanR> is that a command that basically edits your cabal file
16:22:03 <monochrom> I think I have never wanted it.
16:22:10 <yin> EvanR: yes
16:22:14 <EvanR> these kind of commands creep me out
16:22:25 <EvanR> I would run the command then check the file to make sure it worked
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16:22:52 <EvanR> or see what it did
16:22:57 <EvanR> so I'm in the file already
16:23:14 <monochrom> At the time I am want to add random-fu, I am not at a shell prompt, I am already at an editor. It is actually more trivial to go change the *.cabal file directly.
16:24:08 <monochrom> Switching context to a terminal just to use a "convenience" command is actually a path of higher resistance.
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16:25:01 <monochrom> Indeed already the newest version of "cabal init" adds things I need to delete.
16:25:04 <Inst_> EvanR: or you could go all the way to ponies, which is intended to provide a GUI for editing cabal files :)
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16:26:14 <EvanR> Inst_, did you get any inspiration from these canned IO functions which takes non-IO "callbacks"
16:26:23 <EvanR> like interact or play
16:26:32 <Inst_> wait, play is in Gloss or System.IO?
16:26:44 <EvanR> gloss, it's more involved because graphics and timing
16:27:04 <Inst_> https://hoogle.haskell.org/?hoogle=play
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16:27:21 <Inst_> see, that's more my complaint about Haskell libs being confusing :(
16:27:39 <monochrom> Would "cabal add random-fu" have a million options and knobs that let me customize how it's indented? >:)
16:27:40 <EvanR> um gloss is the first result on hoogle for what it's worth
16:27:46 <Inst_> interact I get, your (String -> s -> (String, s)) -> (String -> s -> IO () ) I get
16:27:48 <EvanR> what are you confused about
16:28:10 <Inst_> the type of play, ummm, how am I supposed to use it? :(
16:28:13 <EvanR> what I typed was stripped of its documentation https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gloss-1.13.2.2/docs/Graphics-Gloss.html#v:play
16:28:16 <Inst_> I mean I can look it up, it just takes time to get
16:28:18 <int-e> I don't know, aren't all libraries confusing, regardless of the language?
16:28:26 <EvanR> you can also click the link that hoogle gives you
16:28:42 <Inst_> yeah i know
16:28:53 <int-e> There's also https://hackage.haskell.org/package/gloss-1.13.2.2/docs/doc-index-P.html
16:28:57 <monochrom> Um, libraries that I wrote are not confusing. :)
16:29:01 <Inst_> If I can successfully work on Cabal (and have a good shot at doing the exact parser)
16:29:11 <Inst_> I'd probably be qualified to work Haddock
16:29:14 <EvanR> libraries I recommend are not confusing, tautology? xD
16:29:19 <Inst_> then I'd try to figure out how to improve Haddock
16:29:27 <int-e> monochrom: Even those that you wrote 10 years ago?
16:29:41 <sclv> a good use case for add-like functionality would be an IDE that knew to add containers if I imported Data.Map for example
16:30:24 <Inst_> groan, I can't even get ponies to the maturity level where it gives GUI hud for all of the cabal commands
16:30:42 <int-e> monochrom: (Assuming you've stopped using them of course. I'm trying to make a point about familiarity here.)
16:30:56 <Inst_> wait, that's IDE...
16:31:37 <monochrom> I think since 10-15 years ago I developed the habit of writing good docs.
16:32:32 <ski> monochrom : heh, was about to say that libraries that oneself has written are (sometimes) not confusing ;)
16:32:47 <Rembane> monochrom: How do you write good docs?
16:32:57 <Rembane> monochrom: Or, how does one write good docs? <- in case of math
16:33:18 <monochrom> I had developed good teaching experience, so I write like I'm teaching it.
16:34:23 <monochrom> And in the special case of teaching my future forgetful self, I kind of already know what I will easily figure out and what I will find non-obvious.
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16:35:13 <Rembane> monochrom: That sounds like a very good way to write docs
16:35:33 <Rembane> monochrom: The catch is that teaching experience is required to copy your doc writing style.
16:36:13 <Rembane> I was hoping for shortcuts. :)
16:37:03 <monochrom> For example, in my own study notes on measure theory. let u be the unit Dirac delta measure, i.e., u(x)(A) = 1 if x in A, 0 o/w. There is a cute theorem "for a measurable predicate P, P holds almost everywhere iff P holds at x"
16:37:35 <monochrom> Now, I know that I am proud of an insider joke I made about "but it has measure zero so it doesn't matter".
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16:37:53 <monochrom> So in my notes, my proof just says that. :)
16:37:59 <Rembane> Good stuff! :D
16:38:28 <EvanR> "NB: you are proud of an insider joke you made about 'but it has measure zero so it doesn't matter'"
16:38:39 <monochrom> Here is the insider joke.
16:39:08 <monochrom> My real analysis prof announced "midterm test: next Wednesday 12am".
16:39:32 <int-e> midnight euphoria
16:39:38 <monochrom> So we were all like "don't you mean 12pm? noon?". He said oh yeah.
16:40:00 <monochrom> Then he explained why. In his opinion, noon should be called 12am, midnight should be called 12pm.
16:40:27 <int-e> . o O ( 12m )
16:40:34 ski always confuses those
16:40:38 <int-e> since it's nether before nor after
16:41:00 <int-e> But then I'm not sure what to use for midnight :-P
16:41:07 <monochrom> Now, this being in the context of a measure theory course, (and I also thought about it previously), one must not pass up the pun opportunity to say, "but it ({noon, midnight}) is a set of measure zero, so it doesn't matter". :)
16:41:18 <monochrom> The whole class ROFL.
16:41:41 ski grinns
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16:42:10 <int-e> y'all should switch to a 24 hour clock
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16:43:07 <Inst_> is there a possible pun between Hanuman and Haskell?
16:43:36 <Inst_> An acquaintance agreed to start a github org for me to dump stuff like porting The Big Book of Small Python Projects to Haskell
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16:56:21 <dminuoso> "Scheduled delivery 11:00-12:00pm"
16:56:38 <dminuoso> Resolve into a timerange of UTC timepoints. How's that for a riddle?
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16:59:24 <EvanR> use swatch internet time dotbeats
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17:31:42 <yin> why am i getting ` Module ‘Network.WebSockets’ does not export ‘Connection’. `?
17:31:55 <yin> when it clearly does?
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17:36:17 <int-e> how did you import it?
17:37:43 <yin> import Network.WebSockets
17:38:00 <yin> import Network.WebSockets ( Connection ) -- this gives an error
17:38:57 <EvanR> it actually doesn't export the constructors
17:39:07 <int-e> It used to though.
17:39:35 <EvanR> did it?
17:39:49 <EvanR> import Network.WebSockets.Connection
17:39:56 <int-e> 0.9.x did, I have not checked between 0.9 and 0.12.
17:40:26 <EvanR> in 0.9.0.0 it didn't (from Network.WebSockets)
17:40:56 <int-e> Oh.
17:41:09 <int-e> You're right, I was looking at Network.WebSockets.Connection
17:41:47 <int-e> (Which still exports the constructor. But that's not the issue here.)
17:42:27 <int-e> Or maybe it is? That import shouldn't give an error... I imagine it's somewhere else in the code?
17:43:08 <yin> something's funky
17:43:23 <yin> Could not find module ‘Network.WebSockets.Connection’.
17:43:59 <int-e> Okay, maybe you have to check which package you're getting Network.WebSockets from
17:44:17 <yin> and i can't seem to get the correct version which should be 0.12
17:45:06 <yin> how do i check that?
17:45:22 <int-e> It looks like ancient versions didn't have a Connection type.
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17:46:37 <int-e> But I mean ancient... it was added in websockets-0.8.0.0 as far as I can see, which is from 2013
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17:47:00 <int-e> On October 22nd, so pretty much exactly 10 years old.
17:48:51 <int-e> "how do I check that"... uh. I tend to check install plans (cabal install --dry-run). You could also add `--constraint 'websockets >= 0.12'` and see whether that fails and if so, how.
17:52:21 <yin> this is my .freeze https://paste.jrvieira.com/1698256307711
17:54:18 <int-e> Well that lists websockets as 0.3.0.0, which is indeed way too old.
17:54:30 <int-e> don't ask me why though
17:54:31 <yin> https://paste.jrvieira.com/1698256455577
17:54:57 <yin> oh wait
17:55:00 <int-e> rename the .freeze file and try again?
17:55:04 <yin> yeah
17:55:12 <int-e> (or remove it... since whatever is in there will never work anyway)
17:56:24 <yin> https://paste.jrvieira.com/1698256568625
17:56:30 <yin> something to do with text i think
17:57:39 <yin> nope
17:57:46 <int-e> But ultimately it's base, so your ghc is too new. You can *try* `--allow-newer=base`
17:58:56 <yin> ah
17:59:28 <yin> ty
17:59:52 <yin> i guess i should keep with ghcup's recommended versions
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18:12:33 <yin> well that was a good half hour list
18:12:35 <yin> *lost
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18:36:16 <Inst_> what is wrong with forever?
18:36:27 <Inst_> if I use it to infinite loop, but have button presses accessed by a different thread
18:36:35 <Inst_> erm, forkIO
18:36:39 <int-e> ?!
18:36:39 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
18:36:41 <Inst_> the exception calling doesn't kick in
18:36:50 <Inst_> okay, my program goes
18:37:02 <Inst_> thread <- forkIO . forever $ putStrLn "Hello"
18:37:06 <Inst_> getChar
18:37:10 <Inst_> killThread thread
18:37:32 <Inst_> only way I get the expected behavior is to run on prog -threaded +RTS -N
18:37:34 <EvanR> if an exception is not caught in a non-main thread, it just kills the thread
18:37:56 <EvanR> unless you set something up to connect threads together, which async does
18:38:49 <Inst_> iirc forkIO is considered smelly
18:38:53 <EvanR> ...
18:39:32 <geekosaur> you need -threaded or for the thread to allocate (or maybe -fno-omit-yields) for that to work with the non-threaded runtime
18:39:33 <EvanR> any supporting arguments for that
18:40:07 <mauke> I'd be surprised if putStrLn doesn't allocate
18:40:30 <EvanR> putStrLn also interacts with the IO manager, so should cooperate
18:40:36 <Inst_> i can get it working with ghci -threaded +RTS -N
18:40:51 <mauke> do you need that +RTS option?
18:41:20 <geekosaur> ghci is always -threaded
18:41:32 <Inst_> hmmm, it's a stdin behavior i think
18:41:58 <mauke> ... actually, what is the expected behavior and what do you see instead?
18:42:17 <Inst_> if i set hSetBuffering stdin NoBuffering the detect will work
18:42:56 <Inst_> no threaded necessary
18:43:21 <EvanR> what are you even trying.
18:43:28 <John_Ivan_> What does the "m" constructor in the monad >>= stand for? I know it's "Monad" but what exactly is it? "m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b"
18:43:33 <EvanR> e.g. if you press backspace, you won't see a char with buffering
18:43:38 <geekosaur> EvanR, see https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.2.5/docs/html/libraries/base-4.16.4.0/Control-Concurrent.html#v:throwTo at "safe point"
18:43:47 <John_Ivan_> farshot guess, is it "IO" ?
18:44:03 <geekosaur> (`killThread` is `\tid -> throwTo tid ThreadKilled`)
18:44:15 <Inst_> I'm trying to pimp this program right now
18:44:17 <Inst_> https://inventwithpython.com/bigbookpython/project15.html
18:44:21 <geekosaur> John_Ivan_, it's any monad
18:44:30 <geekosaur> every monad has its own definition of (>>=)
18:44:42 <geekosaur> @src Maybe (>>=)
18:44:42 <lambdabot> (Just x) >>= k = k x
18:44:42 <lambdabot> Nothing >>= _ = Nothing
18:44:49 <Inst_> i'm trying to implement exit on any keyrpress behavior, whereas the py original requires ctrl c
18:44:50 <geekosaur> @src IO (>>=)
18:44:51 <lambdabot> m >>= k = bindIO m k
18:44:55 <John_Ivan_> geekosaur, any monad being... any instance of class Monad?
18:44:59 <geekosaur> yes
18:45:02 <John_Ivan_> gotcha.
18:45:04 <John_Ivan_> thanks
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18:45:42 <Inst_> the behaviors I'm trying to add is probably via ansi-terminal, i.e, build a buffer to display, then display the buffer between calls
18:46:10 <geekosaur> inst_, if you want any keys to be passed back before a newline you must use hSetBuffering
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18:48:02 <Inst_> yeah I switched to hSetBuffering stdin NoBuffering
18:48:37 <EvanR> and then you still might not see anything if you press half of a unicode character? xD
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18:49:10 <EvanR> ok that's probably getting too far into the weeds
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18:55:51 <Inst_> how would you press half of a unicode character? ?:(
18:55:55 <Inst_> oh
18:56:23 <Inst_> I think, maybe Japanese keyboards migth have this mode
18:56:33 <Inst_> wherein they input Japanese directly via mode switch
18:56:56 <Inst_> Chinese is IDE-based, iirc, there might be direct wubi inputs
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18:57:08 <Inst_> not sure about Arabic keyboards
18:58:08 <Inst_> arabic and hebrew keyboards exist, I'd think Indian keyboards would be more circumspect and just abuse the fact that English is a national language
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18:59:26 <EvanR> ISCII
18:59:52 <Inst_> devanagari keyboards exist, nad I assume for the wide variety of scripts
19:00:02 <Inst_> end of the day, Haskell's direct console story is mediocre
19:00:36 <EvanR> yeah haskell should come with powershell built-in
19:00:45 <Inst_> well, it's okay, but the default show insstance sucks
19:01:38 <Inst_> putStrLn "世界，你好！“
19:01:52 <Inst_> works, direct string literal ends up being gibberish (unicode points)
19:02:28 <Inst_> print also returns unicode points
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19:02:43 <EvanR> no this is gibberish: £
19:03:21 <c_wraith> print calls show. show encodes strings as very conservative ascii literals
19:03:25 → wootehfoot joins (~wootehfoo@user/wootehfoot)
19:04:01 <c_wraith> importantly, as Haskell source literals.
19:04:47 <Inst_> damnit, I'm guessing there's a long story as to why Vitaly Bragilevsky's unicode show doesn't work :(
19:05:21 <EvanR> show is basically for debugging and not pretty printing
19:05:29 <Unicorn_Princess> is it ok/appropriate to put my local noindex repository into ~/.cabal/packages/myrepo?
19:05:49 <Inst_> now this is interesting!
19:06:03 → eggplantade joins (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:7473:6047:87f6:c0b2)
19:06:34 <Inst_> if I build a data constructor in unicode, then derive show, it'll show respecting unicode
19:06:44 <Inst_> string literal, fuggedabutit
19:08:32 <int-e> > length "！"
19:08:33 <lambdabot> 1
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19:13:03 <Inst_> is there an arbitrary symbol that is counted as uppercase for Haskell's purposes?
19:13:10 <EvanR> A
19:13:16 <EvanR> oh, symbol
19:19:51 <EvanR> > find (\c -> isSymbol c && isUpper c) ['\0'..]
19:19:53 <lambdabot> Nothing
19:20:28 <Unicorn_Princess> but is '\0' really the first one?
19:20:38 <EvanR> > toEnum 0 :: Char
19:20:40 <lambdabot> '\NUL'
19:20:58 <Unicorn_Princess> is there a more principled way to get every char?
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19:21:31 <[exa]> kinda wondering how to get more principled than ['\0'..]
19:21:33 <EvanR> > [minBound .. maxBound] :: String
19:21:35 <lambdabot> "\NUL\SOH\STX\ETX\EOT\ENQ\ACK\a\b\t\n\v\f\r\SO\SI\DLE\DC1\DC2\DC3\DC4\NAK\SY...
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19:21:59 <Unicorn_Princess> beautiful
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19:22:35 <EvanR> relying on the principles of the per who defines the Enum instance
19:22:38 <EvanR> person
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19:23:00 <EvanR> and Bounded
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19:23:49 <ash3en> me again.. sorry, but any chance someone dealt with ld.lld errors on windows? full log here: https://privatebin.net/?1d95cc51613ef84e#Fj4Rpie9nKfZuLkxAk9bQChSZZftiiz9uj4jEM9Fiyor
19:23:58 <EvanR> is there a way principled or not to get every Float
19:24:59 <Inst_> > minBound :: Char
19:25:01 <lambdabot> '\NUL'
19:25:31 <Unicorn_Princess> bitwise hackery? afaik every bit pattern is a valid float (valid includes Nan).. but i'm not 100%
19:26:37 <EvanR> > map unsafeCoerce ([minBound .. maxBound] :: [Word32]) :: [Float]
19:26:39 <lambdabot> error:
19:26:39 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: unsafeCoerce :: Word32 -> Float
19:26:49 <EvanR> % map unsafeCoerce ([minBound .. maxBound] :: [Word32]) :: [Float]
19:26:49 <yahb2> <interactive>:25:46: error: ; Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Word32’ ; Perhaps you meant ‘Word’ (imported from Prelude)
19:27:09 <Unicorn_Princess> I think default haskell float is 64 bits?
19:27:16 <EvanR> Double is
19:27:20 <Unicorn_Princess> ah
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19:27:30 <Unicorn_Princess> must be thinking of python
19:28:34 <int-e> % import Data.Word
19:28:34 <yahb2> <no output>
19:28:54 <EvanR> % map unsafeCoerce ([minBound .. maxBound] :: [Word32]) :: [Float]
19:28:55 <yahb2> <interactive>:29:5: error: ; Variable not in scope: unsafeCoerce :: Word32 -> Float
19:29:11 <int-e> % import Unsafe.Coerce
19:29:11 <yahb2> <no output>
19:29:13 <EvanR> it's not meant to be done
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19:33:41 <EvanR> ash3en, cabal file?
19:39:02 <ash3en> https://privatebin.net/?a0805c6c7cb6313d#8DuPDNrQ6RrWjt4B8B2SpAB9ryTL53Nv5GH831GTEskk :) here
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21:46:31 <Inst_> question: is this outdated?
21:46:33 <Inst_> https://chrisdone.com/posts/whats-wrong-with-implicitparams/
21:48:38 <c_wraith> Nah, that's all correct.
21:48:47 <c_wraith> Also, they just don't solve the problems that I'd like them to
21:51:51 <Inst_> okay, reproduced it
21:52:23 <Inst_> not my problem short-term, was thinking about -XBraceArguments which desugars to implicit params and gives defaulting ability
21:52:53 <Inst_> as well as varargs
21:53:19 <Inst_> varargs are just great when you're designing an API, since you can hide everything behind a single function
21:53:45 <geekosaur> we like types though, and varargs plays havoc with typing
21:55:34 <Inst_> could not reproduce behavior described in ChrisDone's post
21:55:40 <Inst_> on GHCI, could with a cabal script
21:57:13 <Inst_> geekosaur: well, tbh, mid-term, it's a question of what a potential haddock overhaul might look like
21:57:57 <geekosaur> ghci's scoping rules differ enough that things might well not reproduce
21:59:25 <Inst_> and maybe it's just a lib design issue, i.e, people seem much less oriented on writing, say, a "how to write a lib api" vs a "how to use type families" tutorial
21:59:59 <Inst_> btw, lucid can supersede https://hackage.haskell.org/package/html-parse this except for speed, right?
22:00:46 <Inst_> welp, looks like lucid doesn't provide parsing
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22:00:51 <Inst_> and html-parse is dead for 9.6, afaik
22:01:45 <c_wraith> that doesn't look like a dependency set that would break on higher GHC versions
22:01:51 × sansk quits (~sansk@user/sansk) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
22:02:06 <c_wraith> It just looks like the base constraint is unnecessarily tight
22:02:40 <Inst_> attempting build with --allow-newer
22:03:19 <EvanR> implicit params is great, except for the implicit part
22:03:22 <Inst_> tagsoup also installs
22:03:28 <probie> Inst_: If you want varargs, you can always use a list. You lose currying though, and there's a potential performance hit
22:03:28 → sansk joins (~sansk@user/sansk)
22:03:42 <Inst_> i know there's old libraries that do it via varargs
22:03:43 <EvanR> great idea number 17 which is easier to pull off by just passing a parameter
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22:06:23 <c_wraith> yeah... html-parse tries to use older versions of libraries that aren't compatible with the newest ghc. But compiling it with --allow-newer will build with only a warning about the import of Data.Monoid being redundant
22:06:46 <c_wraith> It could use an update fixing some bounds, but the code is fine.
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22:13:33 <Inst_> no reason to bug ben gamari about it
22:13:56 <Inst_> > import Network.HTTP.Conduit
22:13:58 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘import’
22:14:09 <Inst_> @import Network.HTTP.Conduit
22:14:09 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
22:14:34 <Inst_> % import Network.HTTP.Conduit
22:14:35 <yahb2> <no location info>: error: ; Could not find module ‘Network.HTTP.Conduit’ ; It is not a module in the current program, or in any known package.
22:14:43 <Inst_> % :set -package http-conduit
22:14:43 <yahb2> cannot satisfy -package http-conduit ; (use -v for more information)
22:14:49 <Inst_> smart move :)
22:21:04 <Inst_> I'm probably a reprobate for using global env
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22:21:23 <Inst_> but still love being able to call any package i want on ghci via ghci -package foo
22:27:37 <nyc> Is there something better than a Data.Set from containers for moderate-sized fixed-width/size data structures e.g. 256-bit multiple precision integers? I've got a vague idea that things should exist for this.
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22:42:42 <sansk> What's the difference between Data.Map and Data.HashMap?
22:43:21 <Inst_> map is a treemap, hashmap is a hashmap
22:44:34 <sansk> So hashmap is more performant?
22:45:39 <Inst_> depends on usecase, no?
22:46:28 <sansk> For mainly insertion and lookup, which is better then?
22:46:40 <EvanR> Word256 is a thing in some crypto packages
22:47:08 <EvanR> I don't know what a 256-bit multiple precision integer is
22:47:40 <EvanR> sansk, HashMap requires keys to be Hashable, Map requires keys to be Ord
22:48:04 <EvanR> if hashing is cheaper than comparing, maybe HashMap is better
22:48:33 <EvanR> if the key is Int, then IntMap is probably better
22:48:36 <sansk> To be honest, I am not quite sure what hashing means exactly EvanR
22:48:54 <sansk> I've only ever dealt with Map
22:48:57 <EvanR> a hash function maps your key to a number
22:49:32 <EvanR> a good hash function maps different keys to different numbers with high probability
22:49:35 <sansk> so it's an abstraction over an array?
22:49:48 <EvanR> HashMap and Map have the same API
22:50:14 <EvanR> you can think of an array as a map from 0..N to values
22:50:28 <EvanR> but in Map the keys don't need to be continguous
22:50:35 <EvanR> contiguous
22:51:41 <sansk> What do you mean by contiguous?
22:52:05 <EvanR> no holes between the min and max key
22:52:38 <EvanR> you could have (0,'a') (1,'b') (7,'c') in your map and that's it, unlike an array
22:53:09 <sansk> would a hashmap hash it as 0, 1, 2?
22:53:14 <EvanR> no
22:53:37 <EvanR> since Int is an instance of Hashable you can just use Int keys if you want
22:53:42 <EvanR> it works
22:54:09 <sansk> so basically HashMap just converts your map to IntMap?
22:54:30 <EvanR> I don't think so, no, but you can think of it like that if you want
22:54:42 <EvanR> it uses hash array-mapped tries
22:55:56 <sansk> what are the practical performance differences though between hashmap and map? ie what usecase would you use each for?
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22:56:50 <EvanR> I've never used a HashMap for anything. aeson used to? use it for the string-like keys of json objects
22:57:33 <EvanR> you can find benchmarks of the various container structures around if you search, but they are benchmarks so have many grains of salt to eat while looking at
22:58:06 <EvanR> because of the Ord container on Map you can treat the contents as being ordered by key which is nice. Not so with HashMap
22:58:10 <EvanR> Ord constraint*
22:58:45 <sansk> well im using a Map to store variables in an interpreter i am writing
22:59:10 <EvanR> what type of key
22:59:15 <sansk> Text
22:59:51 <EvanR> Map is a good default container, if you wanted more performance you might want to not use Text as variable keys
23:00:20 <EvanR> just because I know it's possible to use Int keys for that
23:01:34 <sansk> i guess performance doesn't matter too much, i will probably continue using Map since its convenient
23:01:44 <EvanR> it's pretty great
23:04:11 <sansk> yeah, and very intuitive
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23:50:15 <yin> is there a reason to prefer shared mutable state explicitly with MVar etc to passing state around in true functional style?
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23:51:15 <jackdk> You might want multiple concurrent threads sharing the state
23:52:41 <geekosaur> or shared with callbacks, which can't receive the current value (only the value when the callback was registered) in pure functional style, and certainly can't update it
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All times are in UTC on 2023-10-25.