Logs on 2023-10-26 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:35 | <Axman6> | I love coming across cool packages you've hever heard of, replace-attoparsec looks amazing, I love (and am also terrified by) this example: streamEditT (char '{' *> manyTill anyChar (char '}')) (fmap T.pack . getEnv) "- {HOME} -" ==> "- /home/jbrock -" |
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| 00:16:14 | <yin> | is MVar really needed in the websockets sample server example? https://github.com/jaspervdj/websockets/blob/master/example/server.lhs |
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| 00:17:39 | <yin> | my understanding is that withPingThread is concurrent but I'm not sure (only today i started looking into concurrent haskell) |
| 00:20:08 | <EvanR> | you really need multiple threads to handle simultaneous client dialogs |
| 00:20:29 | <EvanR> | you can do any concurrent set of tasks with 1 thread by interleaving manually but it's a pain in the ass |
| 00:21:03 | <EvanR> | splitting it into dedicated threads spawned on client connect simplifies it a lot |
| 00:22:02 | <EvanR> | if the threads need to coordinate at all you need something like MVar, or TVar, or sometimes just an IORef will work |
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| 00:36:32 | <jackdk> | Axman6 often raves about the `atomicModifyIORef'` trick in place of using `MVar` |
| 00:46:03 | <geekosaur> | if that's all you need, sure |
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| 01:17:48 | <c_wraith> | they have really different operational semantics under write load. it's important to have both options available depending on your use cases |
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| 02:02:03 | <[Leary]> | nyc: In principle, Data.IntSet should be generalised to sets of arbitrary bit strings (there may be a package for this; data-inttrie looks promising), but in practice you can perhaps get away with `IntMap (IntMap (IntMap IntSet))`. If you want to represent dense regions compactly, a finger tree of dense intervals (membership bit arrays with offsets) is extremely efficient. |
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| 03:04:34 | <Axman6> | My preference for the single atomically modified IORef thing came form a paper looking at implementing concurrent data structures in Haskell using all the usual tricks you'd see in imperative languages, and the highest performing implementation IIRC across the board was just using an immutable structure in an IORef, because the contention on that ref is much cheaper to deal with than pretty much any opther scheme that usually needs multiple atomic variables |
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| 03:08:59 | <lockywolf> | Is there a way to not make cabal hardcode paths when building/installing? |
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| 03:34:38 | <monochrom> | lockywolf: No. But there is a way to set environment variables at run time to change them. |
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| 03:40:47 | <lockywolf> | hackage server |
| 03:41:17 | <lockywolf> | issues |
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| 03:55:49 | <lockywolf> | sorry, wrong window |
| 04:00:52 | <lockywolf> | If I may ask someone to cosider this issue, it would be great: https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server/issues/1261 |
| 04:03:45 | <Axman6> | Finally found the paper for the concurrent data structures/IORef stuff above: http://simonmar.github.io/bib/papers/concurrent-data.pdf |
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| 04:04:34 | <Axman6> | lockywolf: this probably isn't the best place to get the attention of the hackage developers, #hackage or #haskell-infrastructure might be better places |
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| 04:45:10 | <c_wraith> | Axman6: I've had highly concurrent services fall over on the thundering herd caused by atomic CAS retries on a single hyper-overloaded IORef. admittedly, pushing everything through one IOref was a bad design, but the quick fix of changing it to an MVar worked to keep the service from collapsing in those conditions. |
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| 04:50:29 | <Axman6> | Yeah there are definitely situations where it makes sense - I feel that if your updates to ther IORef are relatively expensive, you might be able to spread out that contention (particularly when using atomicModifyIORef') |
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| 04:54:20 | <lockywolf> | I think this patch should be more or less what is needed: https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server/issues/1261#issuecomment-1780412728 |
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| 05:50:18 | <liamzy__> | tomsmeding: what happened to your mergesort? |
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| 10:16:07 | <danse-nr3> | runtime system crashes always shock me a bit |
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| 11:25:29 | <srk> | I've managed to produce one today using unsafeCoerce. I wonder it this is a valid use for it https://paste.rs/3jD0W.hs and if it is possible to rewrite it using just coerce. (it seems to work currently, unsafeCoerce seems fine for a testsuite only instance but still) |
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| 11:26:50 | <srk> | (forall is redundant, leftover from previous attempts) |
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| 12:04:03 | <coco> | hi |
| 12:04:34 | <coco> | I'm passing --no-install-ghc to stack, but it still downloads ghc. What am I doing wrong? |
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| 12:23:21 | <danse-nr3> | srk, which type of crash was that? Segmentation fault? |
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| 12:25:35 | vpan | is now known as Guest2756 |
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| 12:30:06 | <srk> | danse-nr3: yes, but that's kind-of expected when you mis-use unsafe* stuff |
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| 16:16:07 | <danse-nr3_> | what is the term of part of a module path as in Term1.Term2.Module? |
| 16:16:51 | <c_wraith> | as far as Haskell-the-language is concerned, it's all just the module name. |
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| 16:17:15 | <danse-nr3_> | yeah did not find anything more specific in haskell.org/onlinereport/modules.html. Cheers |
| 16:17:15 | <c_wraith> | module names may contain dots. those dots do not imply any sort of hierarchy or relationship, internally |
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| 16:19:09 | <EvanR> | I don't understand the context-free grammar for that |
| 16:19:18 | <EvanR> | modid |
| 16:19:36 | <EvanR> | it's defined as a conid, but those don't have periods? |
| 16:20:29 | <c_wraith> | err. I'm seeing "modid → {conid .} conid" |
| 16:21:06 | <EvanR> | ok I was looking at haskell 98 |
| 16:21:19 | <c_wraith> | ah, yes. Haskell98 did not allow . in module names |
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| 16:21:48 | <c_wraith> | Though that was added very shortly thereafter |
| 16:21:48 | <EvanR> | a simpler time! |
| 16:22:14 | <danse-nr3_> | my fault had that link in my history ... |
| 16:22:56 | <c_wraith> | "Because they are allowed to be mutually recursive, modules allow a program to be partitioned freely without regard to dependencies" |
| 16:23:15 | <c_wraith> | Oh, if only that were practically true in GHC.... |
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| 16:26:03 | <EvanR> | GHC is imperfect, my code runs on platonic haskell |
| 16:26:14 | <EvanR> | in the platonic realm |
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| 16:37:41 | <carbolymer> | a nix related question, how can I add tools to my devshell here: https://gitlab.com/carbolymer/haskell-sandbox/-/blob/master/flake.nix?ref_type=heads#L45 ? |
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| 16:43:47 | <srk> | carbolymer: mkShell |
| 16:44:46 | <tomsmeding> | @tell liamzy__ https://github.com/haskell/play-haskell/issues/25 |
| 16:44:47 | <lambdabot> | Consider it noted. |
| 16:45:03 | <tomsmeding> | not that I think they'll take that nick again, but perhaps |
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| 16:52:10 | <carbolymer> | srk: doesn't seem to be exactly what I need - it tries to recompile packages: https://bpa.st/ABIA |
| 16:54:33 | <[Leary]> | carbolymer: Try `devShells.default = pkgs.haskellPackages.shellFor { packages = hp: [ hp.haskellSandbox ]; nativeBuildInputs = [ tool1 tool2 ... ]; };` |
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| 16:57:07 | <carbolymer> | [Leary]: seems to be it, thanks! |
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| 17:12:10 | <srk> | carbolymer: I think it would work using inputsFrom = [ pkgs.haskellPackages.haskellSandbox.env.buildInputs ]; but [Leary]s solution is better for sure |
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| 17:21:13 | <carbolymer> | srk: what's the advantage of shellFor? |
| 17:28:30 | <dostoyevsky2> | Beginner question: When you look at code like <<ParseSuccess r' s'' n' m' → ParseSuccess r' s'' (n + n') (furthest m (offset n . m'))>> -- how do you know what's a string? (This is from geordi's source code, #c++ eval bot) |
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| 17:29:33 | <EvanR> | is that actual haskell |
| 17:29:54 | <geekosaur> | with UnicodeSyntax |
| 17:30:28 | <EvanR> | is it type level or term level |
| 17:30:36 | <EvanR> | I can't read it |
| 17:30:57 | <carbolymer> | is there a type level dot? |
| 17:30:57 | <EvanR> | I am skeptical of this being a beginner question |
| 17:31:10 | <dostoyevsky2> | EvanR: https://github.com/Eelis/geordi/tree/master <- github says it's Haskell 78.6% |
| 17:31:32 | <ghoulguy> | That looks like a case branch |
| 17:32:00 | <EvanR> | oh, is << and >> quotation marks in your language |
| 17:32:13 | <geekosaur> | yeh |
| 17:32:22 | <geekosaur> | «» |
| 17:33:22 | <dostoyevsky2> | EvanR: Normally I'd quote LaTeX-style `' but that's confusing if the code itself contains ' |
| 17:33:23 | <EvanR> | dostoyevsky2, it's very helpful to look around for type signatures to help you identify what is what type |
| 17:34:17 | <EvanR> | hopefully they put type signatures |
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| 17:34:52 | <dostoyevsky2> | > if before' == before then mzero else return $ before' ++ (if c == ']' then "" else " [with") |
| 17:34:53 | <lambdabot> | error: Variable not in scope: before'error: Variable not in scope: beforeerr... |
| 17:35:19 | <dostoyevsky2> | I can guess that before' is probably a derived variable and ']' is a char... but not sure what the actual syntax rules are here |
| 17:35:44 | <EvanR> | before' and before are variables, ']' is a Char literal |
| 17:36:20 | <EvanR> | that they are being compared for equality doesn't narrow down the types much |
| 17:36:52 | <EvanR> | > [3.14 == 7.3, 'a' == 'a', False == True] |
| 17:36:53 | <lambdabot> | [False,True,False] |
| 17:37:02 | <mauke> | before' is being concatenated with a String, which helps |
| 17:37:10 | <dostoyevsky2> | https://github.com/Eelis/geordi/blob/master/src/ErrorFilters.hs <- it mentions String a lot (since it's cleaning up gcc error messages) so I guess they are Strings |
| 17:37:13 | <geekosaur> | but the rest does; absent OverloadedTypes it looks like before' and therefore before are String |
| 17:37:42 | <mauke> | also, it's using ++ to do so, which nails down the type to [a] in any case |
| 17:37:57 | <geekosaur> | true |
| 17:39:13 | <mauke> | dostoyevsky2: in your original question, nothing is a string |
| 17:39:13 | <EvanR> | dostoyevsky2, 94 is where before is introduced, and comes from manyTill, which produces a list, anyChar is a parser which produces a Char, so you have [Char]. Which String is a synonym of |
| 17:39:21 | <mauke> | it's pretty generic code |
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| 18:02:07 | <Inst> | what does ghc --info do? |
| 18:02:17 | <Inst> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/using.html#ghc-flag---info |
| 18:02:48 | <geekosaur> | dumps the settings with which ghc was built |
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| 18:05:04 | <geekosaur> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/k0bDPZjI |
| 18:06:53 | <srk> | carbolymer: just a shorthand, you could even ditch shellFor or mkShell for mkDerivation like this https://github.com/HaskellEmbedded/ivory-tower-nix/blob/master/makeshell.nix |
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| 18:54:15 | <ash3en> | hi, me again: anyone got ld.lld errors when trying to compile for windows? error started to show up when i added aeson to my code. something about undefined symbol. on mac it helped to update to ghc 9.6.2, but no luck on windows with that.. |
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| 19:50:19 | <Inst> | performance wise, what does having a phantom type do with regard to performance? |
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| 19:51:32 | <EvanR> | nothing, types don't exist at runtime |
| 19:51:47 | <monochrom> | Bayesianly I could claim that 90% of phantom types don't add any cost because 90% of phantom types I've seen don't add any cost. |
| 19:52:30 | <monochrom> | But honestly you should just look at how a specific phantom type is actually defined, then it is obvious because you already know how "data" works and how "newtype" works. |
| 19:52:55 | <Inst> | i'm assuming phantom type parameters affect optimization |
| 19:52:56 | <monochrom> | Proxy is the other 10%. |
| 19:53:40 | <EvanR> | if proxy is costing something, it's not because of phantom types |
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| 19:53:58 | <EvanR> | but because of type class and ad hoc polymorphism |
| 19:54:11 | <EvanR> | which is something at runtime |
| 19:54:16 | <monochrom> | Well, Proxy is the other 9%, :~: is the remaining 1%. Or something. |
| 19:55:05 | <EvanR> | Inst, care to elaborate |
| 19:55:45 | <Inst> | 斯塔特# 佛日instanceis泼了一抹热平衡ic, 日光和他？ |
| 19:55:51 | <Inst> | State for instance is polymorphic, right? |
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| 19:57:17 | <Inst> | State#, I mean |
| 19:57:26 | <Inst> | but it's all weird polymorphism tricks afaik |
| 19:58:21 | <EvanR> | newtypes don't exist at runtime, phantom type params or not |
| 19:58:56 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.0.0/docs/GHC-Exts.html#t:State-35- |
| 19:59:20 | <c_wraith> | monochrom: I'm not sure I buy that the arguments to :~: are actually phantom, because the constructor *does* use them. |
| 19:59:28 | <monochrom> | Pretty sure this kind of qualitative reasoning gets you nowhere. |
| 19:59:34 | <Inst> | look at https://github.com/haskell/cabal/blame/master/Cabal/src/Distribution/GetOpt.hs |
| 20:00:00 | <EvanR> | what am I looking at |
| 20:00:01 | <Inst> | ArgOrder a, it had its polymorphic error type factored out |
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| 20:00:23 | <Inst> | so i'm surprised when that got factored out, no one thought to change it to ArgOrder instead of ArgOrder a, with a phantom |
| 20:00:38 | <Inst> | compare: |
| 20:00:39 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.0.0/docs/src/System.Console.GetOpt.html#getOpt |
| 20:01:03 | <monochrom> | c_wraith: Fortunately under Bayesianism I have factored in an estimate of how many people consider it a phantom type in my total probability >:) |
| 20:01:47 | <EvanR> | removing the phantom from ArgOrder a only affects the type checking and that's it |
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| 20:02:33 | <EvanR> | and then you can write more programs by mixing ArgOrders differently, affecting performance, I guess |
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| 21:36:34 | <shapr> | @quote tromp |
| 21:36:34 | <lambdabot> | tromp says: the number of legal 17x17 Go positions is 9895749638558742166 modulo 18446744073709551577 :) |
| 21:37:25 | <tromp> | @quote shapr |
| 21:37:25 | <lambdabot> | shapr says: I can has lambda now? |
| 21:37:29 | <shapr> | haha |
| 21:37:34 | <shapr> | howdy tromp, how's life? |
| 21:37:51 | <tromp> | jolly good, but missing the summer weather |
| 21:37:55 | <shapr> | yeah, same here |
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| 22:29:39 | <Inst_> | playing around with DLists |
| 22:29:42 | <Inst_> | they're not functors, are they? |
| 22:29:46 | <Inst_> | they seem to be invariant functors? |
| 22:30:08 | <EvanR> | not functors? |
| 22:30:23 | <EvanR> | they're isomorphic to list |
| 22:30:54 | <Inst_> | a fmap on a dlist would be |
| 22:31:14 | <Inst_> | define a fmap on a dlist, then? |
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| 22:32:45 | <int-e> | :t \f xs -> (++) (f <$> xs []) |
| 22:32:46 | <lambdabot> | (a1 -> a2) -> ([a3] -> [a1]) -> [a2] -> [a2] |
| 22:33:01 | <exarkun> | which DList do you mean? |
| 22:35:38 | <int-e> | Inst_: note that DList isn't simply any function d :: [a] -> [a]; it also maintains the invariant that d xs = d [] ++ xs. |
| 22:36:07 | <Inst_> | fine, i saw the RWH implementation |
| 22:36:10 | <Inst_> | but that's O(n) |
| 22:36:10 | <int-e> | And that in turn allows you to define a functor instance by going via lists. |
| 22:36:11 | <Inst_> | yuck |
| 22:36:58 | <int-e> | you're going to apply the function for each list element anyway... and it is lazy |
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| 22:37:08 | <Inst_> | yeah, thinking it through |
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| 22:38:25 | <Inst_> | also, how do I get an analogue to replicate for DLists? |
| 22:38:42 | <EvanR> | @src replicate |
| 22:38:42 | <lambdabot> | replicate n x = take n (repeat x) |
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| 22:39:00 | <Inst_> | i defined my own replicate, I thought replicateM would solve my problem, but nooope |
| 22:39:31 | <Inst_> | my hanoi program is too unperformant, partially because i'm defining the screens via lists |
| 22:39:32 | <int-e> | fromList (replicate n x) is just fine? |
| 22:39:36 | <EvanR> | well, just use replicate directly and ++ on DList should work |
| 22:40:05 | <Inst_> | well, it's probably because i'm calling SGR functions from Console.Terminal.ANSI on every print char |
| 22:40:15 | <Inst_> | ColoredChar = MkCC [SGR] Char |
| 22:41:05 | <Inst_> | putColoredChar (MkCC sgr char) = setSGR sgr >> putChar char >> setSGR defaults |
| 22:41:06 | <EvanR> | towers of hanoi uses stacks right, so normal lists are the best choice |
| 22:41:16 | <int-e> | In many cases, DList isn't really faster than plain lists... its main benefit is that it cures the quadratic blowup from left-associative list concatenation. |
| 22:41:33 | <Inst_> | yeah and I'm using that to define my lists trivially :( |
| 22:41:35 | <int-e> | So if your code doesn't suffer from that, DList won't help you much. |
| 22:42:04 | <int-e> | (And possibly even hurt? I don't really know.) |
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| 22:42:46 | <Inst_> | three times I saw DLists, one, ben gamari dumped a dlist implementation for some lexer he was writing |
| 22:42:50 | <Inst_> | well, two times |
| 22:42:51 | <int-e> | Somehow my main use of DList (well, Endo [a]) is for the writer monad. |
| 22:42:52 | <Inst_> | second time, sort |
| 22:43:27 | <int-e> | (Which does suffer from left-biased nested concatenation.) |
| 22:44:23 | <EvanR> | if you only append 1 item at a time then finally start consuming from the beginning, you can use a prepend-then-reverse normal list |
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| 22:44:49 | <EvanR> | Endo [a] lets you append multiple items without having to pre-reverse them |
| 22:45:04 | <EvanR> | but in the end you still have to do something like a reverse on the thunks |
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| 22:53:58 | <Inst_> | i'm annoyed, i have a much nicer tower of hanoi app than the py original, but i can't get it to be performant :( |
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| 22:54:54 | <Inst_> | https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/968989726633779215/1167234894691307550/image.png?ex=654d6335&is=653aee35&hm=5c7fc338ec39ac3bccd6c7d165dfae211610b33f4a1087479a8e808e67d399b3&=&width=1288&height=660 |
| 22:55:51 | <Inst_> | https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/968989726633779215/1167235136258064434/image.png?ex=654d636e&is=653aee6e&hm=c1658cc1080286b4c76ef2ab019879e3bc572519033d0ee8731bac03a7d45385&=&width=1200&height=1128 |
| 22:55:54 | <EvanR> | what does "performant" mean here |
| 22:56:18 | <EvanR> | and did you compare it with the python version |
| 22:57:23 | <Inst_> | i mean that every time the screen updates, i get some kind of flicker because it's not printing the output image fast enough :( |
| 23:02:00 | <Inst_> | https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/968989726633779215/1167236641723793418/image.png?ex=654d64d5&is=653aefd5&hm=f2c87a400f5227f5dccef06aab24ab0cd0493417e360a15e62b2314a72e84565&=&width=916&height=1386 |
| 23:02:03 | <Inst_> | py original |
| 23:03:00 | <EvanR> | the performance implied by these screenshots is not apparent to me |
| 23:03:14 | <Inst_> | you can't see the performance issue with the haskell version, tbh |
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| 23:03:33 | <Inst_> | would need a screenshot, the problem is that it's updating the screen via clearScreen from Console.Terminal.ANSI, then prenting out new text |
| 23:03:41 | <EvanR> | can you like, quantify and measure the performance as you know a number or something |
| 23:05:48 | <Inst_> | do you know where cabal run dumps its profiler? ugh, this is going to suck |
| 23:06:38 | <EvanR> | even just timing how long it takes to run the program with the time command is better than what you've been presenting |
| 23:07:38 | <geekosaur> | is the python program clearing the screen between frames also? |
| 23:08:07 | <geekosaur> | or is it using something like ncurses? |
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| 23:10:35 | <Inst_> | it's not clearing the screen |
| 23:10:55 | <geekosaur> | I suspected not, because that *will* introduce flicker |
| 23:11:50 | <Inst_> | btw, just curious |
| 23:12:03 | <geekosaur> | I'm wondering if you would be better off using vty instead of raw ANSI |
| 23:12:06 | <Inst_> | with cabal, you can force the build-depends to follow -prof, right? |
| 23:12:17 | <Inst_> | well, at least the flicker version SHOULD work on windows |
| 23:12:26 | <geekosaur> | oh right, windows |
| 23:12:33 | <Inst_> | only thing, if you're somehow still on Billy Gates' antiquated moneymaker |
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| 23:12:40 | <Inst_> | what's the keypress result of up arrow? |
| 23:12:43 | <geekosaur> | I don't think the Windows compatible release has come out yet |
| 23:12:48 | <Inst_> | I think I need to code it to support windows up arrow presses |
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| 23:13:19 | <geekosaur> | raw? "\27[A" as a Haskell string |
| 23:14:47 | <geekosaur> | (that is, ASCII ESC, left square bracket, capital A. three characters) |
| 23:15:31 | <geekosaur> | I don't know if this differs on Windows |
| 23:17:06 | <EvanR> | oh windows has this too https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/console/console-virtual-terminal-sequences |
| 23:17:16 | <EvanR> | ESC [ A, unless you reconfigured it |
| 23:18:19 | <Inst_> | ehhh, i guess i might as well reboot and see what windows returns on getChar |
| 23:18:40 | <EvanR> | it's documented right there |
| 23:19:03 | <EvanR> | but verifying IRL is good |
| 23:19:20 | <EvanR> | it would be 3 chars though not 1 |
| 23:19:55 | <Inst_> | nah, my posix version is 3 chars |
| 23:21:01 | <EvanR> | no, it would be 3 actually |
| 23:21:10 | <EvanR> | there are 3 lights |
| 23:22:25 | <Inst_> | when did you jump off the Enterprise anyways? |
| 23:22:53 | <Inst_> | me? Picard, way too disappointing |
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| 23:32:32 | <Inst_> | yeah, i'm 100% sure it's an issue with how I'm constructing the display, maybe I've screwed up somewhere |
| 23:33:04 | <Inst_> | using the same clearScreen command in a different program, I don't see flicker |
| 23:34:17 | <geekosaur> | did you change output buffering in any way? |
| 23:34:44 | <geekosaur> | I would probably use BlockBuffering and hFlush after outputting a frame |
| 23:35:21 | <Inst_> | hmmm, this one is missing line buffering |
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| 23:36:05 | <Inst_> | okay, weirdness goes away with line buffering |
| 23:36:06 | <Inst_> | awesome |
| 23:36:43 | <Inst_> | thanks @geekosaur, for helping me to fix this weird flicker issue <3 |
| 23:37:16 | <EvanR> | I presume there's no performance problem after all |
| 23:37:34 | <Inst_> | just bad config on output :( |
| 23:37:54 | <geekosaur> | well, there was, but not the usual one. character at a time terminal I/O is painfully slow even on modern machines |
| 23:38:08 | <EvanR> | if haskell can't beat python at towers of hanoi that's bad |
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| 23:38:26 | <EvanR> | seemed unlikely |
| 23:38:40 | <EvanR> | but printing things out can be tricky |
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| 23:45:13 | <Inst_> | i mean the defaults seem questionable |
| 23:45:29 | <Inst_> | but w/e, being ultra-concise isn't a Haskell language goal, it's just a side effect of functional programming |
| 23:47:01 | <geekosaur> | LineBuffering is normally the default on POSIX, is something (maybe ansi-terminal) overriding it? |
| 23:50:03 | <Inst_> | weird |
| 23:50:39 | <Inst_> | probably ansi-terminal |
| 23:54:32 | <Inst_> | oh, it was a cockup on my part |
| 23:55:11 | <Inst_> | i turned it off for some reason |
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| 23:59:18 | <geekosaur> | make sure that's stdin instead of stdout |
| 23:59:42 | <geekosaur> | for key reads you want to disable buffering on stdin, but you want to leave it on stdout for output performance |
All times are in UTC on 2023-10-26.