Logs on 2023-10-27 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:01:46 | <Inst_> | yeah, for whatever reason, i mapM_ (flip hSetBuffering NoBuffering) [stdin, stdout) |
| 02:01:47 | <Inst_> | ] |
| 02:02:32 | <EvanR> | sometimes when presented with stuff you can do, it's better to just not xD |
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| 09:25:04 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> like I was hinting the other day, there are so many weird hard details with small terminal I/O games.. makes me pine for the old 8 bit computers |
| 09:27:40 | <tomsmeding> | the matrix bridge has now decided to colour the nick prefix, meaning my script _again_ doesn't pick it up >.> |
| 09:27:56 | <tomsmeding> | but perhaps this is a good status quo |
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| 09:32:41 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> How does the renamer work in terms of keeping track what variable is what internally? does it keep representing it as a string and just appends some garbage at the end of shadowed names or is there a more introcate way with having ids or whatever? |
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| 09:59:28 | <Jon> | I have a type that looks like this: data Variant = Variant { variantGraph :: Graph, rule : : String, parent :: Variant } | Original Graph . I have a function :: Variant -> Graph (i.e., it handles both constructors). Is there a good convention to name it? The trouble is I've already used 'variantGraph' for the accessor. |
| 10:00:17 | <tomsmeding> | fromVariant is a typical name, but that assumes it's in a module that deals solely with Graph, and is typically imported qualified |
| 10:01:53 | <Jon> | thank you I forgot about 'from' |
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| 10:13:21 | <merijn> | Jon: Alternatively, there's NoFieldSelectors which disables the generation of accessors so the name is free (whether that's a price worth paying in your code is unclear) |
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| 10:22:26 | <ski> | Jon : `data Variant = Variant {variantGraph :: Graph,rule : : String,parent :: Variant} | Original {variantGraph :: Graph}' ? |
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| 10:23:36 | <tomsmeding> | clever |
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| 11:23:04 | <Jon> | ski, that's a far simpler solution, thank you; for some reason I thought that couldn't work. |
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| 11:34:49 | <ski> | Jon : well .. i was thinking you might've considered it already, and decided you didn't want it .. but decided to mention it nonetheless |
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| 11:37:10 | <danse-nr3> | reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/17bneno/best_wayresource_to_learn_haskell_with_a_week_to good luck with that hiring policy |
| 11:40:09 | <danse-nr3> | but of course only hiring newcomers is a great way not to get questioned and to make them feel really humble |
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| 11:56:52 | <exarkun> | danse-nr3: How did you conclude the company _only_ hires newcomers? |
| 12:00:11 | <danse-nr3> | good point, i wanted to say "hiring", without only. I guess this is a policy one applies in most cases or in no case, but i have no evidence about that so could be wrong |
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| 12:16:03 | <kokomop3n0r> | Geddy Lee, Edna Skilton, and the Gay Dogs - Mrs. Skilton had always loved dogs, and when she learned that many of them were being abandoned or put down because of their sexuality, she knew she had to do something. She started a shelter for gay dogs in Regina, but she faced a lot of opposition from the local Muslim Iman at Darul Falah Islamic Centre, who believed that homosexuality was a sin and |
| 12:16:07 | <kokomop3n0r> | that dogs were impure animals. Read all about it here: https://pastebin.com/MDeBRL0Y |
| 12:16:37 | <tomsmeding> | ozone?! |
| 12:16:59 | <tomsmeding> | dibblego: you still have your @ |
| 12:17:14 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> hello people with experience with the katip library how do i close the file handle of the file scribe? |
| 12:17:41 | <kokomop3n0r> | eldritchcookie Do you like gay dogs? |
| 12:18:15 | <danse-nr3> | yeah gay dogs are cute kokomop3n0r |
| 12:18:18 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> sure why no gay dogs straight dogs bisexual dog asexual dogs all dog are cute |
| 12:18:34 | <tomsmeding> | eldritchcookie: closeScribe? (I have no clue, just peeked at the haddocks) |
| 12:18:40 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> why not? |
| 12:18:58 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> let me show the test |
| 12:20:10 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> https://play.haskell.org/saved/BfmY3P0P |
| 12:20:25 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> this is failing with a file closed exception |
| 12:20:32 | <tomsmeding> | where |
| 12:21:05 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> on the first readfile if i remove it then the test passes |
| 12:21:20 | <tomsmeding> | what is the exact exception being thrown? |
| 12:21:44 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> *** Failed! Exception: 'scribeKCT.log: withFile: resource busy (file is locked)' (after 1 test): |
| 12:21:58 | <tomsmeding> | that's not a "file closed" execption ;) |
| 12:22:20 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> sorry i meant to say file not closed |
| 12:23:00 | <tomsmeding> | okay yeah I don't know :) |
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| 12:23:40 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> would more context help? i can publish my full code to github it is less than 200 lines total |
| 12:24:43 | <tomsmeding> | not for me I guess -- I'm not actually familiar with katip, just peeked at the haddocks |
| 12:25:32 | <lortabac> | Celestial: names in GHC are not just strings, they are structured |
| 12:26:42 | <lortabac> | there are various kinds of names, one of them is 'Name': https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-9.8.1/docs/GHC-Types-Name.html#t:Name |
| 12:26:54 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> question can i perform multiple writes in a handle simultaneously? i think the problem is opening the file while it is already open |
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| 12:32:23 | <merijn> | eldritchcookie: Is that readFile from base? i.e. `String -> IO String`? |
| 12:32:55 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> yeah |
| 12:33:14 | <merijn> | That uses lazy IO, which means it won't be closed until the entire output is forced |
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| 12:33:24 | <merijn> | It is a Bad (TM) function, best avoided |
| 12:33:37 | <merijn> | Not to mention String is a bad datatype for reading in entire files :p |
| 12:34:32 | <haskellbridge> | 14<mauke> But the readFile is after the withFile |
| 12:34:37 | <merijn> | You probably want to use `Data.Text.IO.readFile :: FilePath -> IO Text` which 1) is strict and will close the file before returning and 2) is a more efficient format |
| 12:35:15 | <merijn> | hmm |
| 12:36:29 | <merijn> | I don't know what logEnvWithScribe and closeScribes are actually doing |
| 12:36:46 | <merijn> | also, which OS is this? and are there other test interacting with the same paths? |
| 12:37:09 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> yeah i guess it only closes the handle later because after switch mkFileScribe to mkHAndleScribe it worked |
| 12:37:19 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> *switching |
| 12:37:38 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> it is on Linux more specifically NixOS unstable |
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| 12:47:19 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> ok what are the steps before uploading to hackage what should i keep in mind? |
| 12:48:42 | <tomsmeding> | eldritchcookie: 'cabal check', in any case |
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| 13:01:40 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> cabal gen-bounds isn't generating bounds for my test dependencies |
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| 13:05:57 | <merijn> | eldritchcookie: It's because you don't have --enable-tests set :p |
| 13:06:38 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> Error: cabal: unrecognized 'gen-bounds' option `--enable-tests' |
| 13:06:39 | <merijn> | "cabal configure --enable-tests --enable-benchmarks" should make a cabal.project.local that ensures they're set to true for every command |
| 13:07:06 | <merijn> | hmm, maybe gen-bounds isn't smart enough to know about it |
| 13:08:15 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> ok how do i choose the bounds manually? |
| 13:16:31 | <merijn> | Generally I just use ^>= (PVP compatible) for the latest version unless I have reasons to do something different |
| 13:17:16 | <merijn> | See also: http://pvp.haskell.org |
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| 13:42:05 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> ok when will hackage accept packges with cabal 3.4 at least? |
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| 13:42:30 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> is there a schedule or is it in the future? |
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| 13:52:27 | <merijn> | What makes you say it doesn't? |
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| 13:56:16 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> i tried to upload a package candidates and it gave me an error saying the max version accepted is 3.0 |
| 13:57:01 | <merijn> | hmm |
| 13:57:09 | <merijn> | Pretty sure I've stuff uploaded newer than that |
| 13:57:22 | <merijn> | What's the full error? |
| 13:59:24 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> 'cabal-version' must be at most 3.0 |
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| 14:02:36 | <zero> | GHC2021 enables OverloadedStrings by default? |
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| 14:11:05 | <tomsmeding> | zero: no https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/control.html#extension-GHC2021 |
| 14:11:06 | <merijn> | zero: Consult the User's Guide? :) |
| 14:11:31 | <tomsmeding> | I have this thing bookmarked, it appears if I even type "lan"(guage) in my URL bar https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/table.html |
| 14:14:23 | <merijn> | In general I consider the GHC User's Guide one of the most underrated documents for beginners |
| 14:14:40 | <merijn> | (or experts, tbh :p) |
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| 14:27:58 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> if am correct ghci can load compiled code how does it do that? |
| 14:28:52 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> yeah according to the manual ghci can load ghc compiled modules |
| 14:29:16 | <geekosaur> | it can load them but it can't do much with them; it has to load interpreted to set breakpoints, for instance |
| 14:29:27 | <geekosaur> | or to see anything that wasn't exported |
| 14:30:24 | <geekosaur> | and it loads them the same way ghc does, loading the .hi file for type information and linking the .o / .a file into the ghc instance |
| 14:30:36 | <geekosaur> | ghci has its own linker |
| 14:31:52 | <geekosaur> | (well, shared with TH) |
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| 14:33:42 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> oh hello geekosaur do you know something amazing? do you remember that old package that loaded dynamically code? it compiles like something from 2016 compiles in modern ghc it is amazing i immediately get a segmentation fault but it is an error that seem resolvable |
| 14:33:42 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> placeholder-test: test/Test.o: unknown symbol `base_SystemziIO_putStrLn1_info' |
| 14:33:43 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> if i am correct i just need to find out how to load base on via the rts |
| 14:34:26 | <geekosaur> | the plugins package? |
| 14:34:51 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/dynamic-loader |
| 14:34:56 | <geekosaur> | oh |
| 14:35:00 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> yeah |
| 14:35:06 | <geekosaur> | I guess there's several then |
| 14:35:21 | <geekosaur> | plugins is probably the best known but I don't think it was updated to ghc 9.x |
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| 14:36:29 | <geekosaur> | you can also use hint but it's more work; plugins wraps hint functionality |
| 14:37:56 | <geekosaur> | also you can't load base as such, you have to link to the existing instance, aiui |
| 14:38:26 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> does plugins load compiled code or does it interpret code? |
| 14:39:35 | <geekosaur> | compiled code |
| 14:39:53 | <geekosaur> | hint can load interpreted code as well, but plugins doesn't use that functionality |
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| 14:40:38 | <sansk> | Is there a way to turn [IO a] -> IO [a] inside a do block? |
| 14:40:51 | <geekosaur> | :t sequence |
| 14:40:52 | <lambdabot> | (Traversable t, Monad m) => t (m a) -> m (t a) |
| 14:41:11 | <geekosaur> | also known as sequenceA since it really only needs Applicative |
| 14:41:38 | <geekosaur> | @src sequence |
| 14:41:38 | <lambdabot> | sequence [] = return [] |
| 14:41:38 | <lambdabot> | sequence (x:xs) = do v <- x; vs <- sequence xs; return (v:vs) |
| 14:41:39 | <lambdabot> | --OR |
| 14:41:39 | <lambdabot> | sequence xs = foldr (liftM2 (:)) (return []) xs |
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| 14:43:10 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> above you said i can't load base as such why? |
| 14:43:17 | <sansk> | thank you, i will try that |
| 14:43:30 | <sansk> | btw what is this bridging from? |
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| 14:44:02 | <geekosaur> | matrix #haskell-irc |
| 14:44:23 | <geekosaur> | eldritchcookie, because base is wired into the compiler and as such is always loaded |
| 14:44:33 | <sansk> | ah ok |
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| 14:44:57 | <geekosaur> | but you sometimes need to do some gymnastics to get at already-loaded symbols |
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| 14:54:28 | <ski> | sansk : also `sequence (map f xs) = mapM f xs' (and `sequence_ (map f xs) = mapM_ f xs') |
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| 15:05:39 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> yeah you arer wrong i added base then ghc prim then ghc-bignum and it actually worked |
| 15:06:10 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> unbelievable |
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| 15:27:03 | zero | is now known as yin |
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| 15:36:30 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> was i rude ? |
| 15:37:27 | <EvanR> | I know one thing, your nick is the only thing with a weird color in this channel xD |
| 15:38:10 | <haskellbridge> | 06<eldritchcookie> it is because i am on matrix xD |
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| 15:40:26 | <geekosaur> | I turned on nick coloring on the bridge |
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| 15:40:58 | <tomsmeding> | 1c2o3l4o5u6r7s |
| 15:41:21 | <geekosaur> | (also no, I'm just clearing out my inbox) |
| 15:42:05 | <int-e> | . o O ( quick, somebody set +c ) |
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| 15:42:52 | <EvanR> | all our technology is from early 20th century so this channel should get a sepiatone filter or something |
| 15:43:29 | <int-e> | Sounds like a client feature. (my client does filter colors, I'm happier that way) |
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| 15:48:02 | <rgw> | or irssi running cool-retro-term |
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| 15:53:58 | <int-e> | rgw: I would consider the terminal emulator to be part of the client stack. |
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| 15:58:02 | <EvanR> | is parsec or read worse in terms of parsing performance |
| 15:58:12 | <EvanR> | or are they the same |
| 15:58:43 | <EvanR> | on show data type-like languages |
| 15:59:10 | <geekosaur> | read is significantly worse |
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| 16:00:24 | <EvanR> | why is that |
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| 16:13:13 | <geekosaur> | it does a lot of extra work to stay within Haskell98 compatibility, and because the underlying parser framework supports multiple parse results (that are never used, but may cause extra backtracking) |
| 16:14:45 | <EvanR> | what's with the multiple parse results |
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| 16:15:01 | <EvanR> | is that critical to the parsing strategy |
| 16:15:10 | <geekosaur> | "that are never used" |
| 16:15:25 | <EvanR> | I understand never used, so why does it exist |
| 16:15:33 | <geekosaur> | I'm not sure anyone knows |
| 16:15:36 | <EvanR> | lol |
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| 16:24:26 | <EvanR> | what about comparing Show and something like blaze-html, is show respectively "significantly worse" |
| 16:25:58 | <geekosaur> | it's not a whol lot worse but it's not going to be as optimized as blaze-html is |
| 16:26:20 | <geekosaur> | and I'd expect blaze-html to follow at least slightly different rules |
| 16:26:55 | <geekosaur> | since Haskell values as source and HTML are somewhat different |
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| 16:33:47 | <liamzy__> | hmmm, a bit unfortunate, looks like Chinese Haskell scene is dead |
| 16:33:50 | liamzy__ | is now known as Inst |
| 16:34:34 | <Inst> | there's a 1150 person QQ group, of which only 17 people are highly active :( |
| 16:35:09 | <EvanR> | that sounds better than this channel |
| 16:35:18 | <EvanR> | should I learn chinese |
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| 16:38:25 | <haskellbridge> | 08<tewuzij> What is Chinese Haskell scene? |
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| 16:53:10 | <ghoulguy> | geekosaur: is this new color-rendered, highlight breaking matterbridge configuration a standard matterbridge thing? |
| 16:53:32 | <geekosaur> | yes. I can turn it back off if it's causing problems |
| 16:54:06 | <geekosaur> | (but highlights should already be broken because I disabled that some time ago by having it insert nonbreaking spaces into nicks, which is another standard thing) |
| 16:54:17 | <ghoulguy> | it breaks my client support for making the messages look native, so I need to update my client. I mostly wonder what the range of options is and if its natively supported in matterbridge so I can undo it generically |
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| 16:55:20 | <geekosaur> | `Colornicks=true` is an option in standard matterbridge |
| 16:55:32 | <ghoulguy> | thanks |
| 16:55:39 | <Inst> | EvanR: I know someone ended up getting recruited for compilers in Nanjing, which is the nice part of China (the area clustered near Shanghai, but not Shanghai itself). |
| 16:55:44 | <geekosaur> | the only change I made to matterbridge was to update the version of girc it uses as part of trying to diagnose a crash |
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| 16:57:16 | <geekosaur> | I tried at one point to disable sending edits to IRC but it failed because the bridge apparently knows not to send edit notifications to IRC, just the edits as new messages 😞 |
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| 16:58:32 | <Inst> | is it true that Haskell is THE language for parsers? ?:( |
| 16:58:53 | <sansk> | well it is very easy to write a parser in haskell |
| 16:59:07 | <sansk> | *parsec libraries are great! |
| 16:59:09 | <geekosaur> | I would expect SML/NJ to be pretty good at it too |
| 16:59:15 | <Inst> | and flatparse can outperform nom <3 |
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| 16:59:50 | <geekosaur> | it just doesn't have the cachet that Haskell has |
| 17:00:51 | <sansk> | scala also has parsley which i have heard good things about |
| 17:01:16 | <int-e> | It has been said that Haskell is a DSL for writing compilers but I think that has more to do with A(lgebraic)DTs and to some extent with first-class functions than with anything relating to the ease or lack thereof of writing parsers. |
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| 17:02:15 | <int-e> | (ADTs come with pattern matching) |
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| 17:05:50 | <EvanR> | Inst, I just wrote a parser for the type signatures in STLC... without a library, but with ViewPatterns https://paste.tomsmeding.com/UTwTZ4BN, type = * | type -> type |
| 17:06:22 | <Inst> | i'm just wondering if Haskell is worth FFI-ing into for parsers :( |
| 17:06:37 | <exarkun> | Probably depends what the other side is. |
| 17:08:24 | <geekosaur> | I'm not sure I would bother, most languages have at least parser generators if not parser combinator libraries |
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| 17:09:00 | <sansk> | Yeah, most languages have libraries for that |
| 17:09:06 | <sansk> | Inst: what language? |
| 17:09:33 | <Inst> | nothing in mind, but i just get the impression that parsers is where Haskell is extremely developed |
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| 17:09:46 | <Inst> | compilers, I'm guessing Rust went with OCaml because OCaml has a lower skill ceiling |
| 17:10:16 | <EvanR> | I get the impression many languages have parser libraries optimized for one sort of subject language over another, usually influenced by the language itself |
| 17:10:32 | <EvanR> | so megaparsec has a snazzy thing to parse an arbitrary expression language |
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| 17:13:01 | <EvanR> | what you make up for in the "ease" of writing the parser in haskell you will pay for in tooling complexity and marshalling the data across process or FFI boundary |
| 17:13:26 | <sansk> | Inst: yeah you can find a parser library in just about any language, don't worry about using haskell ffi |
| 17:13:56 | <Inst> | it's more my obsession with Haskell being more used :( |
| 17:14:15 | <EvanR> | wrote the parser in haskell, now I serialized it to source for so it can go over a link to C, now just gotta parse it xD |
| 17:14:36 | <sansk> | Inst: then just write the whole thing in haskell :) |
| 17:14:54 | <EvanR> | ^ |
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| 18:00:59 | <__monty__> | Inst: OCaml has a higher skill ceiling than Haskell? What does that mean? |
| 18:02:05 | <Inst> | i mean Haskell has a higher skill ceiling than OCaml |
| 18:02:37 | <__monty__> | The second question still remains. |
| 18:02:39 | <geekosaur> | you actually said OCaml has a lower skill ceiling |
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| 18:03:25 | <Inst> | in the sense that Haskell requires more effort to achieve mastery than OCaml |
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| 18:03:42 | <__monty__> | Yes they did, I might be reading challenged. |
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| 18:04:50 | <EvanR> | language mastery haha |
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| 18:04:57 | <__monty__> | Inst: So you mean the barrier to entry is higher for Haskell than OCaml? |
| 18:05:10 | <__monty__> | Or do you mean you can only get so leet in OCaml? |
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| 18:08:50 | <EvanR> | your progress bar in language X starts empty then takes a varying number of XP to reach 100% |
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| 18:09:04 | <EvanR> | at which point you put master programmer of that language on the resume |
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| 18:09:31 | <geekosaur> | yeh, I think they meant the first, although I would define "skill ceiling" to be the second |
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| 18:10:33 | <int-e> | The whole idea of a skill ceiling is so odd... there's always more to learn. |
| 18:10:53 | <int-e> | (programming isn't tic-tac-toe) |
| 18:11:54 | <[exa]> | I hoped the enumerability bois completely dismantled the whole idea of skill ceiling? |
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| 18:12:48 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> and if there isn't you have to be creative and make up stuff to learn |
| 18:12:52 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> science :D |
| 18:13:15 | <geekosaur> | first, enumerate every valid program… |
| 18:13:26 | <exarkun> | [0..] |
| 18:13:27 | <exarkun> | what next |
| 18:14:16 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> if you give me a finite character limit ... |
| 18:15:29 | <grimacer> | Read about Governor Samuel Garcia and Naruto's sexual relationship! Check out the exerpt here and click on the link to read the whole thing! |
| 18:15:29 | <grimacer> | But Samuel Garcia wasn't done yet. He pulled Naruto into one of the bathroom stalls and began to fist him with a rough, insistent force. Naruto cried out with a mix of pain and pleasure as Samuel Garcia's hand stretched him open, his body shaking with intense sensations. As they continued to explore each other's bodies, Naruto couldn't help but feel a sense of taboo excitement. He knew that what they were doing was dangerous and could |
| 18:15:29 | <grimacer> | ruin both of their reputations, but he couldn't resist the intense pleasure that Samuel Garcia brought him. |
| 18:15:29 | <grimacer> | After they finished, Samuel Garcia casually picked the little bits of undigested corn and shrimp tails from the ramen that Naruto had eaten earlier and licked them off his fingers, savoring the flavor. Naruto felt a mix of disgust and arousal as he watched Samuel Garcia, but he knew that he couldn't deny the passion that existed between them. https://justpaste.it/Naruto_Makes_Love_Samuel_Garcia |
| 18:15:38 | ChanServ | sets mode +o geekosaur |
| 18:15:43 | geekosaur | sets mode +b *!*@189.172.57.182 |
| 18:15:43 | grimacer | is kicked by geekosaur (grimacer) |
| 18:15:52 | geekosaur | sets mode -o geekosaur |
| 18:16:18 | <EvanR> | you don't need a finite character limit! |
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| 18:18:34 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> well yeah, you could produce infinitely many valud programs then |
| 18:18:47 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> s/valud/valid |
| 18:19:55 | <EvanR> | then filter by "makes the person who runs this program rich" |
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| 18:24:18 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> if you write that function for me, I will gladly `filter makesRich` |
| 18:25:15 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> while at it, please also write me a function that tells me whether a given haskell program terminates in finite time, thanks |
| 18:27:47 | <exarkun> | is `mapConcurrently id` the most direct thing to do with `[IO a]`? to get `IO [a]` concurrently? |
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| 18:28:52 | <exarkun> | The list comes from the applicative instance of [] so I don't know how to go directly from the function that makes the IO a to the mapConcurrently call |
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| 18:34:51 | <Inst> | __monty__: I actually mean the second, in the sense that in an OCaml codebase, it's reasonable for everyone to be expected to have proficient to master-level understanding of the language and its idioms |
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| 18:35:09 | <Inst> | in Haskell, the same doesn't apply, so that can create issues for onboarding and maintainability |
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| 18:46:12 | litharge | sets mode -bo *!*@189.172.57.182 litharge |
| 18:51:32 | <duncan> | Inst: It isn't clear to me that that is a real distinction |
| 18:52:09 | <Inst> | duncan: what is a real distinction? |
| 18:53:03 | <duncan> | Well, it's not a technical distinction, and there are (shockingly) people who are beginning to learn ocaml |
| 18:53:24 | <Inst> | but to get to proficiency, does it require more, less, or the same amount of effort? |
| 18:57:53 | <exarkun> | different people learn in different ways, at different rates, with different outcomes |
| 18:58:07 | <exarkun> | and effort is hard to measure anyway |
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| 18:58:17 | <c_wraith> | exarkun: can you make use of the Concurrently wrapper in the process? if that's not something you can work in easily, mapConcurrently id is fine |
| 18:58:29 | <exarkun> | and then how do you measure "mastery" |
| 18:58:55 | <exarkun> | c_wraith: hm! |
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| 19:03:48 | <duncan> | Inst: there are two different things going on, there's proficiency in the language and there's a commercial codebase |
| 19:04:20 | <duncan> | the latter is distinctly unlikely to require less effort in Haskell than ocaml |
| 19:04:28 | <geekosaur> | three, since a commercial codebase implies commercial users and you need familiarity with what they need |
| 19:04:34 | <geekosaur> | or are looking for |
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| 19:28:37 | <int-e> | Oh yeah what happened to ozone? |
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| 19:29:35 | <geekosaur> | left the channel because it didn't seem to be needed. we can /invite it again if needed |
| 19:30:57 | <geekosaur> | Oct 18 16:24:50 * ozone (ozone@libera/bot/ozone) has left (Leaving the channel. /invite ozone again if needed) |
| 19:31:02 | <int-e> | Would it help with that Samuel Garcia spam? That's the only recurring thing right now I think. |
| 19:31:43 | <tomsmeding> | that's what it was invited for in the first place, recently |
| 19:31:57 | <tomsmeding> | it was so-so effective with it |
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| 19:52:24 | <EvanR> | I was looking for the proper nomenclature for this thing back when we were talking about DList... data JList a = Empty | Single a | Join (JList a) (JList a), called a join list by ghc wiki |
| 19:54:04 | <EvanR> | O(1) concat! ooo ahh |
| 19:54:23 | <int-e> | "binary tree" |
| 19:54:55 | <exarkun> | int-e: so pedestrian |
| 19:55:11 | <int-e> | Just telling it how I see it. |
| 19:58:42 | <[exa]> | isn't it kinda isomorphic to a free Maybe? |
| 19:59:55 | <[exa]> | ah no it branches too much :D |
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| 20:01:41 | <c_wraith> | It's like Free Pair |
| 20:01:41 | <int-e> | It's more of a monoid over `a` without the monoid laws. |
| 20:02:08 | <c_wraith> | where data Pair a = Pair a a |
| 20:02:15 | <int-e> | (...which given that it captures a monoid shouldn't be surprising) |
| 20:02:49 | <c_wraith> | Oh, not quite. It needs an empty constructor too. Well that's not a common type at all. |
| 20:02:50 | <int-e> | wouldn't you need `Pair a a | Empty` |
| 20:03:05 | <int-e> | What's that, Compose Maybe Pair |
| 20:03:15 | <c_wraith> | yes |
| 20:03:24 | <c_wraith> | Free (Compose Maybe Pair) |
| 20:03:30 | <c_wraith> | ... that's way too awkward :) |
| 20:03:51 | <EvanR> | JList |
| 20:04:00 | <EvanR> | you're welcome |
| 20:04:04 | <int-e> | obfuscation++; insight--; |
| 20:04:28 | <EvanR> | @karma obfuscation |
| 20:04:28 | <lambdabot> | obfuscation has a karma of 0 |
| 20:05:23 | <int-e> | I don't think it triggers like that. |
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| 20:17:46 | <int-e> | I hate clients that do that. |
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| 20:21:01 | <DrKJeff16> | Pardon me? |
| 20:21:23 | <geekosaur> | verbose away |
| 20:21:30 | <geekosaur> | [27 20:16:58] * DrKJeff16 is away: AFK |
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| 20:22:06 | <EvanR> | sorry for barging in but I'm Away |
| 20:22:33 | <DrKJeff16> | Apologies, I'm getting the hang of using Weechat, will fix ASAP. |
| 20:22:56 | <mauke> | why is that even a thing? :-D |
| 20:23:02 | <int-e> | DrKJeff16: Sorry I could've pointed that out in a more friendly way. |
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| 20:31:36 | <Inst> | btw, was briefly discussing STRef with someone |
| 20:31:55 | <Inst> | I'm wondering if STUArray etc doesn't suffer a performance penalty? |
| 20:32:40 | <Inst> | or is STRef actually performant when working with unboxed values? |
| 20:34:18 | <EvanR> | you can't put an unboxed value in an STRef |
| 20:35:06 | <EvanR> | unboxed values have to be handled directly |
| 20:35:13 | <EvanR> | or packed into an array |
| 20:35:41 | <EvanR> | or in an unboxed field of a data structure! |
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| 21:26:38 | <davean> | EvanR: yah, you'd need a PrimVar ;) |
| 21:28:23 | <davean> | Inst: I'm not sure why you relate STRef and STUArray |
| 21:30:11 | <davean> | Inst: STUArray is one indirection faster. |
| 21:30:28 | <davean> | it does not use or relate to STRef |
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| 21:38:20 | <Inst> | except both are manipulated via ST type? |
| 21:40:19 | <EvanR> | STRef is like IORef but can't escape the ST thread |
| 21:42:09 | <davean> | Inst: Thats a pretty remote relationship? I mean you can say something similar about writeFile |
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| 21:42:49 | <Inst> | on, the context is that i'm trying to clean up a Jon Bontley quicksort ported to Haskell |
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| 21:43:17 | <Inst> | https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10049579/jon-bentleys-beautiful-quicksort-how-does-it-even-work |
| 21:43:36 | <Inst> | the point of doing a ST quicksort is so that it's in place |
| 21:43:48 | <Inst> | and switching to STref sort of defeats the point, no? |
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| 21:44:18 | <Inst> | on the other hand, the point of the bentley is that it's "elegant", and i'd want to get my Haskell in-place mutating quicksort to be as elegant |
| 21:44:49 | <EvanR> | STRef is mutated in place just like IORef |
| 21:45:14 | <davean> | Inst: no that doesn't defeat the point, its still in place and can require moving FAR less data to move the pointers. |
| 21:45:18 | <John_Ivan_> | does anyone else's "http-conduit" library give undefined symbol errors to it's dependencies like "ghczupwrapper", "hashablezml", "zzlib", when trying to compile "L.unpack <$> simpleHttp url" ? |
| 21:45:33 | <John_Ivan_> | I suspect the library's broken. Otherwise, might be me doing something wrong? |
| 21:46:06 | <Inst> | iirc there's some benchmarks that suggest that accumulating parameter is generally faster than STRef and by implication IORef when it comes to lots of writes |
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| 21:46:15 | <John_Ivan_> | all I did was add the dependency to my cabal file, imported the lib and did a "cabal build". |
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| 21:47:15 | <davean> | Inst: those are fundimently different things, doing fundimentally different things, of course they're different. |
| 21:47:19 | <EvanR> | Inst, if the thing in the accumulator can be efficiently updated in an immutable way (e.g. it's a single Int), then sure |
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| 21:47:55 | <EvanR> | mutable variables incur additional gc bookkeeping, but it might be worth it for your algorithm |
| 21:48:15 | <Inst> | my target is more to try to get it to look clean without cutting corners |
| 21:48:21 | <Inst> | if you wanted cleanliness at all costs, umm |
| 21:48:26 | <davean> | Inst: you really need to learn about trade offs, you are completely ignoring things like having to copy the data. |
| 21:49:05 | <EvanR> | so make it look clean and don't worry about performance? |
| 21:49:14 | <davean> | I can give you datatypes where a single copy will cost more than the entire sort. |
| 21:50:41 | <Inst> | quicksort xs = if null xs then xs else quicksort (filter (<= head xs) xs) ++ head xs ++ quicksort (filter (> head xs) xs) |
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| 21:51:02 | <EvanR> | nice |
| 21:51:17 | <int-e> | also a bit wrong |
| 21:51:23 | <Inst> | whoops quicksort xs = if null xs then xs else quicksort (filter (<= head xs) xs) ++ [head xs] ++ quicksort (filter (> head xs) xs) |
| 21:51:31 | <int-e> | still wrong |
| 21:51:44 | <Inst> | i mean that QS isn't even a quicksort, is that why it's wrong? |
| 21:51:47 | <int-e> | though now it should typecheck |
| 21:51:59 | <davean> | Also, seriously, filter not partition? |
| 21:52:23 | <Inst> | it's a one liner, and this isn't in place at all |
| 21:52:48 | <EvanR> | <= and > seems to exclude nothing |
| 21:52:48 | <davean> | oh I just find filter much less eligant than partitioning |
| 21:52:57 | <Inst> | oh, whoops |
| 21:53:07 | <int-e> | > let quicksort xs = if null xs then xs else quicksort (filter (<= head xs) xs) ++ [head xs] ++ quicksort (filter (> head xs) xs) in quicksort [42] |
| 21:53:11 | <Inst> | quicksort xs = if null xs then xs else quicksort (filter (<= head xs) (tail xs)) ++ head xs ++ quicksort (filter (> head xs) (tail xs)) |
| 21:53:13 | <lambdabot> | mueval-core: Time limit exceeded |
| 21:53:40 | <Inst> | > quicksort xs = if null xs then xs else quicksort (filter (<= head xs) (tail xs)) ++ head xs ++ quicksort (filter (> head xs) (tail xs)) |
| 21:53:42 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:14: error: parse error on input ‘=’ |
| 21:54:19 | <Inst> | > let quicksort xs = if null xs then xs else quicksort (filter (<= head xs) (tail xs)) ++ [head xs] ++ quicksort (filter (> head xs) (tail xs)) in quicksort [44,43..1] |
| 21:54:20 | <lambdabot> | [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,... |
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| 21:55:35 | <davean> | I really think partition shows it off better |
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| 21:55:41 | <davean> | particular its symetry, etc. |
| 21:55:52 | <EvanR> | is the goal to be "clean", "in-place", or "\"performant\"", gotta decide |
| 21:56:04 | <Inst> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/bisFWB96 |
| 21:56:11 | <davean> | EvanR: Oh in Haskell we often can have all 3 with a little work. |
| 21:56:49 | <EvanR> | pick 3 |
| 21:56:52 | <EvanR> | lol |
| 21:57:18 | <Inst> | my version is a big improvement on earlier overgolfed versions |
| 21:57:19 | <davean> | Its really a choice of 4 things, and we just ignore "engenering time" is a factor we might ever pick. |
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| 21:58:07 | <davean> | Thats ok though, because maintance is so much lower! |
| 21:58:09 | <int-e> | Inst: lines 22-23 are needlessly cute |
| 22:00:27 | <Inst> | i like mapM_ :( |
| 22:00:35 | <Inst> | other needless cute options: |
| 22:00:42 | <int-e> | and meh, those do blocks on lines 18-19 is also ugly |
| 22:00:49 | <Inst> | first `qs` (pivSwapTo - 1) |
| 22:01:03 | <EvanR> | Arrows... |
| 22:01:23 | <EvanR> | Arrow code is an all-in or all-out thing xD |
| 22:02:07 | <geekosaur> | h-Arrow-ing |
| 22:03:08 | <int-e> | nice pun |
| 22:03:34 | <Inst> | unfortunately the function default precedence doesn't play well with addition / subtraction operators :( |
| 22:03:49 | <int-e> | that's what parentheses are for |
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| 22:05:41 | <EvanR> | parentheses?! what do you think this is, lisp? |
| 22:07:10 | <int-e> | > (+ 1 2) |
| 22:07:11 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 22:07:11 | <lambdabot> | • Could not deduce (Num t0) |
| 22:07:11 | <lambdabot> | from the context: (Num a, Num t, Num (t -> a)) |
| 22:07:18 | <int-e> | I rather suspect it isn't |
| 22:07:28 | <Inst> | > ((+) 1 2) |
| 22:07:29 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
| 22:08:05 | <EvanR> | we like to do railyard shunting to figure out how the expression is treed |
| 22:08:24 | <Inst> | i guess i should go convert the code to STRef and see how it works out? |
| 22:09:10 | × | merijn quits (~merijn@233-142-158-163.dynamic.caiway.nl) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 22:09:25 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> with a lisp that would be haßkell |
| 22:15:31 | <mauke> | > (+ 1 2) 1 |
| 22:15:32 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 22:15:32 | <lambdabot> | • Could not deduce (Num t0) |
| 22:15:32 | <lambdabot> | from the context: (Num a, Num t, Num (t -> a)) |
| 22:16:02 | <EvanR> | can the matrixers not use lambdabot |
| 22:17:14 | <ghoulguy> | All their messages are prefixed with a nickname, so probably not |
| 22:18:37 | × | Guest|17 quits (~Guest|17@068-186-020-129.res.spectrum.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 22:23:26 | <Unicorn_Princess> | https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/602 :| |
| 22:26:23 | <EvanR> | the gist I got is it would be nice if you could enable language pragmas only for certain pieces of a source file |
| 22:26:39 | <Unicorn_Princess> | perhaps my grandchildren will be able to |
| 22:26:45 | <Unicorn_Princess> | at this rate |
| 22:27:26 | × | hololeap quits (~quassel@user/hololeap) (Quit: Bye) |
| 22:27:41 | <EvanR> | I guess we need to switch to NeoHaskell |
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| 22:38:28 | <rgw> | wow that issue was created 19 years ago |
| 22:38:38 | <rgw> | i'm sure it will be handled any day now |
| 22:38:58 | <dostoyevsky2> | Is it true tht NeoHaskell uses Comic Sans as the default font? |
| 22:39:39 | <geekosaur> | they are in fact working toward selective warning suppression |
| 22:39:45 | <c_wraith> | no. if it did, it would have |
| 22:39:51 | <c_wraith> | some reason to use it |
| 22:39:56 | <rgw> | is neohaskell a haskell meme now? |
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| 22:53:24 | <yushyin> | always was |
| 22:54:18 | <yushyin> | or better, 'always has been' with this other meme image, https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Always-Has-Been.png |
| 22:54:34 | <rgw> | that's the way i read it |
| 22:58:15 | <dostoyevsky2> | I prefer EmojiHaskell more, though.. NeoHaskell sounds a bit dated imho |
| 22:59:18 | <yushyin> | rgw: https://i.imgflip.com/843d9w.jpg :P? |
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| 23:00:31 | <rgw> | posthaskell |
| 23:01:05 | <geekosaur> | emoji is so 3 years ago |
| 23:01:25 | <rgw> | it's all about animated gifs now |
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| 23:22:31 | <Inst> | davean, so, you were right about the STRef |
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| 23:27:09 | <Inst> | i'll probably cook it into a proper benchmark later |
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| 23:32:30 | <Inst> | I'm extremely annoyed that STRef is outperforming accum parameter, by up to 50%, in this case, however |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-10-27.