Logs on 2023-10-29 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:29:32 | <Guest37> | I am trying to understand lenses, but I am not getting a clear answer as to what they exactly are! Some say they are getters and setters, and some say they are Turing complete, and I have seen some examples of them being used on JSON data like a query language. So, what exactly are they? |
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| 02:32:49 | <EvanR> | functional references on steroids |
| 02:33:20 | <EvanR> | they let you reach into a data structure and do stuff |
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| 02:35:52 | <EvanR> | Guest37, this documentation has a guided tour of using lenses, called optics here because there's more than just lenses going on https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optics-0.4.2/docs/Optics.html |
| 02:35:52 | <Guest37> | I read on reddit that someone used lenses to manipulate json easily (instead of using some xpath/xquery style query language) |
| 02:36:07 | <Guest37> | So, do they replace query languages? |
| 02:37:58 | <Guest37> | EvanR, thanks for that link. I'll go through it. |
| 02:38:10 | <geekosaur> | you can think of them as a query language but they're more flexible than that |
| 02:38:13 | <EvanR> | a set of combinators for your data structure could act as a query language easily, if all you want to do is extract pieces |
| 02:38:31 | <EvanR> | but lens lets you go in and update pieces |
| 02:38:36 | <EvanR> | and other things |
| 02:39:00 | <geekosaur> | I suspect the reason you can't find "what they exactly are" is that you're trying to cram them into a box you already know about, and they refuse to fit |
| 02:39:34 | <Guest37> | geekosaur, yes exactly! I want to know which box they fit into. |
| 02:39:41 | <geekosaur> | good luck |
| 02:40:04 | <geekosaur> | the box they fit into is called "profunctor lenses". it's *bigger* than the boxes you know about |
| 02:41:04 | <EvanR> | stuff you know about, getter, setter, fits into lens |
| 02:41:12 | <EvanR> | query language, fits into lens |
| 02:41:21 | <geekosaur> | they are more than just getters and setters. they are more than just a query language. they are a general mechnism for manipulating data that is already almost a complete language — then they're embedded into, and can use the features of, Haskell for even more flexibility |
| 02:46:58 | <Guest37> | so, they are a family of combinators for data manipulation? I say a family because, I suppose lenses themselves are pretty limiting. But once we have lenses, prisms, traversals, etc., we get a lot of power. |
| 02:48:29 | <geekosaur> | essentially, but with more power |
| 02:49:34 | <Guest37> | can you give an example (even an abridged one or even a description) of such power in action? |
| 02:49:45 | <geekosaur> | "a family of combinators for data menipulation" was Conal Elliot's semantic editor combinators (http://conal.net/blog/posts/semantic-editor-combinators). Lenses generalized that. |
| 02:51:49 | <EvanR> | thanks to the type system a lot of power comes from being able to direct the power of lens usefully, if it type checks, it probably does something interesting |
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| 02:54:27 | <Guest37> | If Lenses generalize semantic editor combinators (which are combinators for data manipulation), in what way are they generalizing them? Are they generalizing they in terms of being a uniform description or are they generalizing them by being able to do more things? |
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| 02:56:21 | <geekosaur> | for example, they work over more data types (although they sometimes need help in the form of template haskell to build new combinators on the fly) |
| 02:56:34 | <EvanR> | some lenses (optics) aren't really editors, for example Iso represent an isomorphism between types |
| 02:56:50 | <EvanR> | but you can use an Iso as part of a larger edit |
| 02:56:51 | <geekosaur> | also any Haskell Functor is automatically a lens, as I understand it |
| 02:58:38 | <geekosaur> | (I'm actually not a very good person to talk to about lenses; I only very rarely work with anything that really needs lens) |
| 02:59:09 | <EvanR> | there's an isomorphism between Word32 and a vector of 32 Bits. So you can edit individual bits using a combination of Iso and a lens for vector |
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| 03:00:19 | <EvanR> | but that example is mentioned on conal's blog post, so it doesn't answer your question about generalizations |
| 03:01:56 | <Guest37> | Ah, that's an interesting example. I still haven't read Conal's blog post; l'll read it. |
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| 03:15:00 | <geekosaur> | much of the generalization is that you can _have_ things like Prisms and Traversals, and they all fit together seamlessly |
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| 03:25:27 | <Guest37> | Thank you for your answers EvanR and geekosaur. |
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| 03:40:35 | <EvanR> | for how dense lens stuff can seem, I just found the motherlode of truths. The instances for class `Is' in optics https://hackage.haskell.org/package/optics-core-0.4.1/docs/Optics-Optic.html#t:Is |
| 03:41:29 | <EvanR> | clinton was famous for emphasizing the importance of what the definition of Is is, and there it... is |
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| 03:50:43 | <EvanR> | UndecidableInstances, nvm, don't look |
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| 05:58:23 | <Inst> | is there a reason I should like Rust? ?:( |
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| 06:03:10 | <Inst> | at least it's helping me understand why people hate static typing |
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| 06:04:57 | <EvanR> | check out the rust channel for more |
| 06:10:21 | <Inst> | no, it's more that the weird correctness semantics are screwing me over |
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| 06:19:27 | <EvanR> | if I'm not mistaken that's the correctness semantics *stopping* you from screwing yourself over |
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| 06:34:43 | <Inst> | it feels like the first thing i'm going to do is to learn some unsafe rust |
| 06:43:38 | <Inst> | EvanR: more that it was a pain to refactor from Vec to array / [] |
| 06:44:46 | <Inst> | which is sort of ironic given that arrays in Rust resemble DT vectors in Haskell |
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| 08:04:02 | <Inst> | the real reason i'm not that fine with Rust is because Rustacaeans told me to get recursion out of a quicksort |
| 08:04:19 | <Inst> | okay, so I did, converted the function calls to pushing and popping onto a stack |
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| 08:04:38 | <Inst> | performance suffered |
| 08:05:22 | <Inst> | but it was a fun exercise |
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| 08:39:28 | <davean> | Inst: why would you have a stack at all for quicksort? |
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| 08:41:19 | <mauke> | what else would you use? a queue? |
| 08:41:35 | <davean> | A fixed set of variables |
| 08:41:44 | <nullie> | quicksort requires stack |
| 08:42:24 | <davean> | No? |
| 08:42:46 | <davean> | You have the bounds of the overall array, you have the size blocks you're currently quicksorting |
| 08:42:53 | <davean> | you step down the sizes and then back up |
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| 08:43:18 | <nullie> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quicksort#Space_complexity |
| 08:43:57 | <mauke> | davean: that doesn't make sense to me |
| 08:44:39 | <mauke> | I sort my subarray and get two smaller blocks of size n1 and n2. then what? |
| 08:45:00 | <mauke> | (and by "sort" I mean partition) |
| 08:46:04 | <Inst> | davean: because I wanted to see what it'd look like |
| 08:46:34 | <davean> | Right quicksort is the one with the variable value pivot |
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| 14:06:41 | <John_Ivan_> | geekosaur, I decided yesterday to switch to a different network library. wreq. I get the same reference errors. what does one do in a situation like this? |
| 14:07:45 | <geekosaur> | like I said yesterday, this sounds like a corrupted cabal store |
| 14:08:07 | <geekosaur> | if you go around removing things, you need to remove everything or you get errors like this |
| 14:08:43 | <geekosaur> | @@ or use tools like @where cabal-gc |
| 14:08:43 | <lambdabot> | or use tools like I know nothing about cabal-gc. |
| 14:08:47 | <geekosaur> | bah |
| 14:08:51 | <geekosaur> | @where cabalgc |
| 14:08:51 | <lambdabot> | https://github.com/treblacy/cabalgc |
| 14:09:09 | <geekosaur> | whihc know how to remove things from the cabal store safely |
| 14:09:43 | <John_Ivan_> | geekosaur, but I reinstalled cabal. unless "cabal clean" is what actually broke my code. |
| 14:09:47 | <John_Ivan_> | store* |
| 14:10:17 | <John_Ivan_> | geekosaur, reinstalling cabal + cabal build didn't throw errors. i got errors after a cabal clean. |
| 14:10:42 | <geekosaur> | cabal clean only cleans dist-newstyle, that should not cause problems like this unless you vendored the library |
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| 14:11:16 | <John_Ivan_> | then I'm very confused. geekosaur aren't cabal projects treated isolated with their own dependencies? |
| 14:12:28 | <geekosaur> | cabal tracks specific builds needed and keeps them in its store, so it can reuse them when possible |
| 14:13:06 | <John_Ivan_> | I'll take that as a "no". |
| 14:13:15 | <geekosaur> | https://cabal.readthedocs.io/en/3.8/nix-local-build-overview.html#nix-style-local-builds |
| 14:14:58 | <geekosaur> | they are isolated, but the kind of isolation you are thinking of is kinda useless when making new libraries that you intend to use for something else; you want isolation but you also want the exact versions of dependencies to be kept around for future use |
| 14:15:19 | <geekosaur> | cabal keeps track of this for you |
| 14:17:12 | <John_Ivan_> | geekosaur, I think I'm going to give cabal the middle finger and try stack. if that does the same thing, I'll just supply my own libraries in C |
| 14:17:31 | <geekosaur> | it will, in its own way |
| 14:17:37 | <John_Ivan_> | geekosaur, because this is apt all over again. |
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| 15:18:20 | <tomsmeding> | John_Ivan_: try removing ~/.cabal/store/ghc-<GHCVERSION> |
| 15:18:23 | <tomsmeding> | in its entirety |
| 15:18:44 | <tomsmeding> | then you'll need to rebuild dependencies again, but at least you'll get a consistent store so that you can rule out a corrupted store as the source of trouble |
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| 16:29:37 | <monochrom> | It is easy to hypothesize "corrupted cabal store" but how to corrupt it is not so clear. cabal itself doesn't corrupt it. Someone else has to actively try that. |
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| 16:36:47 | <akshitkr> | hey |
| 16:37:29 | <akshitkr> | i'm finding it hard to wrap my head around the different versions of ghc and cabal |
| 16:38:09 | <akshitkr> | specifically: whenever i use cabal install it asks me to change my ghc version since its not compatible with the one I've installed |
| 16:38:34 | <akshitkr> | my ghc: 9.4.7 and cabal: 3.6.2 |
| 16:38:40 | <akshitkr> | (marked recommended on ghcup tuie) |
| 16:39:51 | <sclv> | do nor change your ghc version |
| 16:39:51 | <c_wraith> | monochrom: well, there are some cases where no one did it intentionally, like a system crash in the middle of an installation. |
| 16:40:08 | <sclv> | just use the latest cabal and it is compat with all prior ghcs |
| 16:40:38 | <c_wraith> | or even "by actively making a choice" in place of "intentionally" |
| 16:41:03 | <akshitkr> | sclv: thanks, will do that |
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| 16:41:13 | <akshitkr> | can you also help me get around installing new packaged |
| 16:41:16 | <akshitkr> | packages* |
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| 16:41:19 | <geekosaur> | akshitkr, some projects do need different ghc versions because they need different base versions and base is wired into ghc. |
| 16:41:40 | <akshitkr> | lets say i want to install backprop https://hackage.haskell.org/package/backprope, i know the latest version is 0.2.6.5 |
| 16:42:07 | <akshitkr> | so i updated the .cabal to have backprop ^>=0.2.6.5 in the build depends |
| 16:42:21 | <akshitkr> | but it doesn't seem to install it when i run ~cabal install backprop~ |
| 16:42:35 | <akshitkr> | `cabal install backprop` |
| 16:43:03 | <geekosaur> | you don't typically install libraries directly, you let cabal install them as dependencies. if you want to access cabal's version in ghci you do something like `cabal repl -b backprop` |
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| 16:43:25 | <akshitkr> | do i just do cabal install then? |
| 16:43:37 | <geekosaur> | (raw ghci is unprincipled and will do things like linking multiple versions of a package in) |
| 16:43:58 | <akshitkr> | ok doing `cabal build` seems to do something |
| 16:44:26 | <akshitkr> | gotcha |
| 16:46:35 | <akshitkr> | alright so my build-depends is this |
| 16:46:38 | <akshitkr> | build-depends: base ^>=4.17.2.0, backprop ^>=0.2.6.5 |
| 16:47:01 | <akshitkr> | but putting this import in my hs files doesn't seem to work: Import Numeric.backprop |
| 16:48:38 | <c_wraith> | "doesn't seem to work" is missing a lot of details. What does happen? |
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| 16:51:37 | <akshitkr> | Import Numeric.backprop |
| 16:51:37 | <akshitkr> | module Main where |
| 16:51:37 | <akshitkr> | main :: IO () |
| 16:52:00 | <akshitkr> | "parse error on input 'module'" |
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| 16:56:35 | <monochrom> | Put the "module" line before the "import" line. |
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| 16:57:16 | <akshitkr> | getting "Parse error: module header, import declaration" |
| 16:57:20 | <akshitkr> | after doing that^ |
| 16:57:50 | <geekosaur> | @where paste |
| 16:57:50 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 16:57:54 | <monochrom> | Perhaps it's Backprop instead of backprop? |
| 16:58:03 | <akshitkr> | lemme check |
| 16:58:12 | <akshitkr> | yeah i'll use a pastebin, apologies |
| 16:58:16 | <geekosaur> | you import a module, not a library |
| 16:58:44 | <geekosaur> | you may want `import Numeric.Backprop` |
| 16:59:10 | <geekosaur> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/backprop-0.2.6.5/docs/Numeric-Backprop.html |
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| 16:59:19 | <akshitkr> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/P7UqWmXe |
| 16:59:21 | <monochrom> | Is this a "dive-in project"? This is what's wrong with dive-in projects. |
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| 17:00:09 | <akshitkr> | diving into haskell perhaps, I have experience with fp in OCaml |
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| 17:00:40 | <geekosaur> | also `import` has to be lowercase |
| 17:01:08 | <akshitkr> | ah right |
| 17:01:11 | <akshitkr> | that was the issue |
| 17:01:29 | <akshitkr> | only getting "Could not find module Numeric.Backprop" now |
| 17:03:17 | <geekosaur> | can you pastebin your cabal file? |
| 17:04:23 | <akshitkr> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/cRtY2JDh |
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| 17:06:37 | <geekosaur> | oh. cabal.project is not the same as your cabal file, it specifies information applicable to all libraries in a project |
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| 17:06:45 | <geekosaur> | rename it to something like `myapp.cabal` |
| 17:07:00 | <monochrom> | But then it is also missing many fields. |
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| 17:07:34 | <akshitkr> | updated: https://paste.tomsmeding.com/4hiocmTQ |
| 17:08:22 | <monochrom> | Have you heard of "cabal init"? It is on the list from "cabal --help". |
| 17:08:46 | <akshitkr> | ive already done cabal init |
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| 17:08:55 | <akshitkr> | that is how i got this file anyway |
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| 17:09:09 | <geekosaur> | you're missing a lot of stuff that cabal init would have put in there |
| 17:09:30 | <monochrom> | There are multiple missing compulsory fields. "cabal init" does not omit them. |
| 17:09:36 | AlexNoo_ | is now known as AlexNoo |
| 17:09:49 | <[exa]> | good afternoon all |
| 17:09:54 | <akshitkr> | I am not sure how i got there :P |
| 17:10:00 | <akshitkr> | ill do cabal init again |
| 17:10:10 | <monochrom> | 2nd law of thermodynamics. |
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| 17:10:48 | <[exa]> | akshitkr: if you backup your current one you should be able to merge it with the freshly autogenerated one using e.g. gvimdiff or meld or so |
| 17:11:24 | <akshitkr> | didn't really do a lot yet so its fine for now to just nuke it and create a new project |
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| 17:17:14 | <akshitkr> | re-initialized the whole thing |
| 17:17:30 | <akshitkr> | seems to work except the language server has a problem with me importing Number.Backprop |
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| 17:18:05 | <EvanR> | what editor are you using, vscode? |
| 17:18:11 | <monochrom> | Number? Numeric? |
| 17:18:39 | <akshitkr> | using emacs |
| 17:18:57 | <akshitkr> | yeah Numeric*, sorry |
| 17:20:15 | <akshitkr> | killed the buffer and opened it again, works now |
| 17:20:26 | <akshitkr> | thanks for the help everyone! |
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| 17:25:06 | <[exa]> | o/ |
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| 17:50:16 | Katarushisu12 | is now known as Katarushisu1 |
| 18:07:49 | <EvanR> | > let x@[1,2,3] = [1,2,3] in x!!1 |
| 18:07:50 | <lambdabot> | 2 |
| 18:08:00 | <EvanR> | > let [1,2,3]@x = [1,2,3] in x!!1 |
| 18:08:01 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:12: error: parse error on input ‘@’ |
| 18:08:07 | <EvanR> | shucks |
| 18:08:37 | × | lisbeths quits (uid135845@id-135845.lymington.irccloud.com) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) |
| 18:08:45 | <EvanR> | that was almost the haskell version of C x[0] = 0[x] |
| 18:09:17 | <c_wraith> | you can only put an identifier before the @ |
| 18:10:22 | monochrom | is now known as monodoom |
| 18:10:38 | <c_wraith> | only one doom? that's down like 1700% from yesterday! woo! |
| 18:11:06 | <nullie> | 1700% down would be negative doom |
| 18:11:28 | <c_wraith> | not when you started at 1800% |
| 18:13:07 | <monodoom> | :) |
| 18:13:35 | <monodoom> | One way to doom them all. |
| 18:15:59 | <EvanR> | I wrote this haskell program with "no dependencies", but it uses ViewPatterns. Will it run on anything other than GHC |
| 18:16:17 | <monodoom> | Probably not even Hugs. |
| 18:16:22 | <EvanR> | cool |
| 18:17:18 | <monodoom> | We now have an axis for library dependencies and another axis for compiler dependencies. :) |
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| 18:39:00 | <EvanR> | in the wikipedia article for simply typed lambda calculus they detail a language which has lambdas like \x:T -> e, annotated with an explicit type. The type language is T = Unit | T -> T. Later they claim with a 1 paragraph blurb that there is an "alternative syntax" without the annotation, and inference is used to check the types |
| 18:39:36 | <EvanR> | with the example \x -> x would get the type alpha -> alpha. But alpha comes out of nowhere |
| 18:39:58 | <EvanR> | is this still simply typed lambda calculus or did they advance along a lambda cube axis by doing this |
| 18:41:55 | <monodoom> | You can choose either way. |
| 18:42:35 | <EvanR> | by introducing the alpha thing does that add any additional "power" |
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| 18:43:18 | <monodoom> | If you insist that the context allows you to monomorphize alpha to something actually in the type language (or else you declare "type error: polymorphism not supported"), then you can stay with simply typed. |
| 18:43:38 | <ncf> | could you link to the paragraph you're referring to? |
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| 18:43:56 | <monodoom> | If you add let-generalization, then yes you have to go rank-1 polymorphism. |
| 18:44:22 | <EvanR> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simply_typed_lambda_calculus#Alternative_syntaxes |
| 18:44:34 | <monodoom> | Yes and no. If you let alpha survive, yes. If you keep it internal and kill it eventually, no. |
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| 18:45:18 | <monodoom> | If you keep alpha internal and kill it eventually, you can call it a "meta variable", "placeholder", "for internal use only". |
| 18:46:11 | <ncf> | looks like whoever wrote that forgot the title of the article |
| 18:46:21 | <monodoom> | For example if the whole term is "(\x -> x) unit" then alpha is just an internal intermediate when you were zooming into "\x -> x". Later you will zoom out and realize alpha=Unit. |
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| 18:47:27 | <ncf> | or i guess what this really says is that adding rank-1 polymorphism is a *very* thin layer on top of STLC |
| 18:47:30 | <monodoom> | haha ncf. |
| 18:47:46 | <ncf> | you just pretend that metavariables don't have to be solved |
| 18:48:00 | <monodoom> | But yeah you could use the HM inference algorithm and then ban polymorphism after the fact. |
| 18:49:36 | <monodoom> | I actually did that in a toy. :) |
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| 19:01:06 | <EvanR> | so to be clear, if you add HM and judge \x -> x to have type alpha -> alpha, it's not STLC anymore |
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| 19:01:30 | <EvanR> | unless you are being monodoom, and allowing that internal to a term only and no one ever knows |
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| 19:02:33 | <EvanR> | maybe this is like is or is pluto not a planet, which is annoying |
| 19:03:05 | <monodoom> | Nah, this is less ambiguous than Pluto. |
| 19:03:39 | <monodoom> | Wikipedia contributors can get carried away, too. |
| 19:05:59 | <monodoom> | You know what, the right stance in this case is "[citation needed]". Really, I have not seen any textbook or paper that says STLC allows "\x -> x". |
| 19:06:14 | <EvanR> | so \x:T -> x is canonical |
| 19:06:23 | <monodoom> | or even "(\x -> x) unit" despite my remark on it being well-defined. |
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| 19:06:46 | <dolio> | I don't think it's that unusual to not have to annotate variables. |
| 19:07:30 | <EvanR> | (\x -> x) unit, it's well defined. (\x -> x) it's not? |
| 19:08:08 | <dolio> | It is. There just isn't a principal type for `\x -> x` in the STLC. |
| 19:08:36 | <dolio> | If you're presenting it that way. |
| 19:10:02 | × | mc47 quits (~mc47@xmonad/TheMC47) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 19:10:54 | <dolio> | There's a principal schema, which you could think about as a sort of meta-reasoning about actual STLC derivations. Which is probably what is typically done if you really have just STLC with some ground type, because it's kind of an impoverished system. |
| 19:11:54 | <dolio> | HM internalizes that with let. |
| 19:15:32 | <dolio> | Anyhow, in actual derivations, you can judge `(\x -> x) : () -> ()` and `(\x -> x) : (() -> ()) -> () -> ()` and so on. The derivations all have the same structure, but you have to do each one separately, because there's no common type that insantiates to all the others. |
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| 19:19:58 | <EvanR> | that makes sense, but since there's no explicit signature on \x, the 4 typing rules given don't work literally. I guess you can just remove that from the language and the rule still works |
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| 19:22:58 | <EvanR> | but doesn't suggest a deterministic course of action for a type checker |
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| 19:31:05 | <EvanR> | I found some course notes on stlc where the instructor decided to put explicit types on every subexpression xD |
| 19:31:12 | <dolio> | Well, HM can calculate the schema. You don't really even need all of HM, because there's no let. |
| 19:32:19 | <EvanR> | does let really add anything |
| 19:33:04 | <dolio> | You can do better than HM, too, I think. STLC probably has 'principal typings.' So you can judge whether or not any open expression admits typings, without context. |
| 19:33:17 | <EvanR> | isn't let x = term1 in term2 = (\x -> term2) term1 |
| 19:34:05 | × | sm quits (~sm@plaintextaccounting/sm) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 19:34:37 | <dolio> | Like, in HM, with some base types, you can't know whether `(x "hello", x 5)` is valid without knowing if x is lambda or let bound. But in STLC it will never be well typed. |
| 19:35:32 | <EvanR> | ok let is important in HM |
| 19:35:40 | <EvanR> | let generalization |
| 19:36:52 | vulpine | is now known as ghoulpine |
| 19:37:58 | <dolio> | Principal typings are nice because you can just run the algorithm on arbitrary open subexpressions and merge the results, instead of having to e.g. check the stuff in a let first because it supplies context necessary to check the body. |
| 19:39:08 | <EvanR> | principal typings, with an s, is what exactly |
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| 19:40:30 | <EvanR> | for being simply typed this is getting pretty deep |
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| 19:50:25 | <EvanR> | by detecting that no type could possibly check, does that indicate "no principle typings", otherwise "yes principle typings" |
| 19:50:37 | <EvanR> | principal* |
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| 19:56:09 | <dolio> | Principal typings are like most general derivable judgment schemas for an open term. |
| 19:58:01 | <dolio> | So, like, given an open term E, you can calculate a most general `Γ ⊢ E : T` for it. And every type derivation involving E will have an instantiation of that judgment. |
| 19:59:12 | <dolio> | And the typings for compound terms can be calculated by combining the typings of the subterms. |
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| 20:20:55 | <Guest7614> | hello |
| 20:21:01 | <Guest7614> | Is this for haskell, right? |
| 20:21:07 | <geekosaur> | yes |
| 20:21:15 | <Guest7614> | Because I have a problem and i don't know how to solve it |
| 20:21:22 | <Guest7614> | I tried searching and using chat gpt |
| 20:21:27 | <Guest7614> | but nothing seems to work |
| 20:21:41 | × | Tlsx quits (~rscastilh@187.40.125.21) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 20:23:01 | <geekosaur> | @where paste |
| 20:23:01 | <lambdabot> | Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 20:23:13 | <Guest7614> | ld.lld: error: undefined symbol: ghczuwrapperZC0ZChashablezm1zi4zi3zi0zm1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276ZCDataziHashableziLowLevelZChashablezufnvzuhashzuoffset |
| 20:23:13 | <Guest7614> | >>> referenced by libHSaeson-2.2.1.0-02a1c0fee0861df53ac8d1042bdad68d6b54029a.a(Internal.o):(aesonzm2zi2zi1zi0zm02a1c0fee0861df53ac8d1042bdad68d6b54029a_DataziAesonziTypesziInternal_zdwhashValue_info) |
| 20:23:14 | <Guest7614> | >>> referenced by libHSscientific-0.3.7.0-b454375fe5cb0412b0580304d35c6fc2921f8c46.a(Scientific.o):(scientificzm0zi3zi7zi0zmb454375fe5cb0412b0580304d35c6fc2921f8c46_DataziScientific_zdwzdchashWithSalt_info) |
| 20:23:14 | <Guest7614> | >>> referenced by libHSscientific-0.3.7.0-b454375fe5cb0412b0580304d35c6fc2921f8c46.a(Scientific.o):(scientificzm0zi3zi7zi0zmb454375fe5cb0412b0580304d35c6fc2921f8c46_DataziScientific_zdwzdchashWithSalt_info) |
| 20:23:15 | <Guest7614> | >>> referenced 30 more times |
| 20:23:15 | <Guest7614> | ld.lld: error: undefined symbol: hashablezm1zi4zi3zi0zm1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276_DataziHashableziLowLevel_hashInt_closure |
| 20:23:16 | <Guest7614> | >>> referenced by libHShashable-1.4.3.0-1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276.a(Class.o):(hashablezm1zi4zi3zi0zm1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276_DataziHashableziClass_zdfHashableInt_closure) |
| 20:23:16 | <Guest7614> | ld.lld: error: undefined symbol: ghczuwrapperZC1ZChashablezm1zi4zi3zi0zm1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276ZCDataziHashableziLowLevelZChashablezufnvzuhash |
| 20:23:17 | <Guest7614> | >>> referenced by libHShashable-1.4.3.0-1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276.a(Class.o):(hashablezm1zi4zi3zi0zm1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276_DataziHashableziClass_zdfHashable2ConstzuzdcliftHashWithSalt2_info) |
| 20:23:17 | <Guest7614> | >>> referenced by libHShashable-1.4.3.0-1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276.a(Class.o):(hashablezm1zi4zi3zi0zm1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276_DataziHashableziClass_hashPtr1_info) |
| 20:23:18 | <Guest7614> | >>> referenced by libHShashable-1.4.3.0-1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276.a(Class.o):(hashablezm1zi4zi3zi0zm1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276_DataziHashableziClass_zdwzdchashWithSalt4_slow) |
| 20:23:18 | <Guest7614> | >>> referenced 1 more times |
| 20:23:19 | <Guest7614> | ld.lld: error: undefined symbol: hashablezm1zi4zi3zi0zm1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276_DataziHashableziLowLevel_hashWord64_closure |
| 20:23:19 | <Guest7614> | >>> referenced by libHShashable-1.4.3.0-1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276.a(Class.o):(hashablezm1zi4zi3zi0zm1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276_DataziHashableziClass_zdfHashableWord64_closure) |
| 20:23:20 | <Guest7614> | ld.lld: error: undefined symbol: hashablezm1zi4zi3zi0zm1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276_DataziHashableziLowLevel_hashInt64_closure |
| 20:23:20 | <Guest7614> | >>> referenced by libHShashable-1.4.3.0-1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276.a(Class.o):(hashablezm1zi4zi3zi0zm1961fe79003fd705645c177b7f4aca0399a4d276_DataziHashableziClass_zdfHashableInt64_closure) |
| 20:23:21 | <Guest7614> | clang: error: linker command failed with exit code 1 (use -v to see invocation) |
| 20:23:21 | <Guest7614> | ghc-9.4.7.exe: `clang.exe' failed in phase `Linker'. (Exit code: 1) |
| 20:23:40 | × | falafel_ quits (~falafel@143.244.47.73) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 20:23:44 | <monodoom> | Yeah please use https://paste.tomsmeding.com instead. |
| 20:23:45 | <Guest7614> | this is the error |
| 20:24:08 | <Guest7614> | done |
| 20:24:15 | → | falafel_ joins (~falafel@143.244.47.73) |
| 20:24:31 | <Guest7614> | it is a program used to read JSON data |
| 20:24:39 | <Guest7614> | and then print its content until the line 100 |
| 20:25:05 | × | falafel_ quits (~falafel@143.244.47.73) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 20:25:59 | <[exa]> | Guest7614: how do you measure lines in JSON? (or are these the lines in the input text stream?) |
| 20:26:35 | <[exa]> | because technically all json fits on a signle line |
| 20:26:58 | × | aljazmc quits (~aljazmc@user/aljazmc) (Quit: Leaving) |
| 20:27:30 | <int-e> | but apparently the program failed to compile (well, link) so is that even relevant? |
| 20:28:00 | <monodoom> | I was thinking that too. But then I was also OK with tangential discussions. :) |
| 20:28:03 | <int-e> | (more info needed... what is the failing command... it's probably also useful to know how ghc was installed) |
| 20:28:10 | <monodoom> | or generally curiosities. |
| 20:28:32 | <int-e> | (But I'm clueless about how these things work on Windows) |
| 20:28:32 | <[exa]> | int-e: you can save a lot of compile errors by coding a different program :D |
| 20:28:50 | <monodoom> | I don't envy Windows users and Mac users. >:) |
| 20:29:00 | <monodoom> | Haha nice. |
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| 20:29:09 | <[exa]> | Guest7614: btw how did you install your haskell? this looks ... ok they left |
| 20:29:25 | <int-e> | [exa]: Ah, so next you'll suggest just using Python instead? |
| 20:29:58 | <monodoom> | Noooo! Use the unix "head" program. It's just "head -100" no? >:) |
| 20:30:03 | <int-e> | ... |
| 20:30:20 | <[exa]> | int-e: oh no not puthon, but for some interpretations this might work with just `interact (unlines .take 100 . lines)` or so |
| 20:30:36 | <monodoom> | told you so :) |
| 20:30:37 | <[exa]> | monodoom: man what happened with your chrom |
| 20:30:51 | <monodoom> | Halloween. |
| 20:30:56 | <[exa]> | scary. |
| 20:31:25 | <monodoom> | I might not be around on Tuesday, so I start now. :) |
| 20:32:37 | <monodoom> | "ld.lld ... unresolved ..." seems to be pretty common recently. |
| 20:33:48 | <int-e> | . o O ( The Haskell cabal strikes again. (No, I don't know that, it's just a pun.) ) |
| 20:34:04 | <monodoom> | :) |
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| 20:35:30 | <Guest9064> | May it work reinstalling ghc? |
| 20:35:37 | <Guest9064> | it's me again |
| 20:36:30 | <[exa]> | Guest9064: what's your cabal version? |
| 20:36:46 | <Guest9064> | 2.4 |
| 20:36:54 | <[exa]> | Guest9064: anyway yeah looks like something is a tiny little bit off with the installation; there are similar reports here: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/22085 |
| 20:37:09 | <[exa]> | oh, can you try a recent one? (I think the above bugreport mentions 3.8) |
| 20:37:16 | <Guest9064> | okey |
| 20:37:21 | <Guest9064> | I will try it |
| 20:37:22 | <Guest9064> | thx |
| 20:37:28 | <Guest9064> | I think I will reinstalled it |
| 20:37:33 | <Guest9064> | So, things will be easier |
| 20:37:45 | <int-e> | "Oh, I'm told I need to use cabal 3.8 with GHC 9.4.1 on Windows. Sorry for the noise." |
| 20:37:49 | <Guest9064> | I am totally newbie in Haskell ahhaha |
| 20:37:56 | <int-e> | (as exa said) |
| 20:38:05 | <[exa]> | Guest9064: this is not much haskell related, more like, unfortunately stuff tends to break notoriously on windows so old versions often cease to work |
| 20:38:10 | <Guest9064> | Can I ask something else about the language? |
| 20:38:13 | <[exa]> | sure |
| 20:38:26 | <Guest9064> | What kind of programm is better to build in Haskell? |
| 20:39:19 | × | random-jellyfish quits (~tiber@user/random-jellyfish) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 20:39:20 | <Guest9064> | I come from programming language sucha s Python, Java, Javascript,etc |
| 20:39:24 | <Guest9064> | as* |
| 20:39:33 | <Guest9064> | And I wanted to learn something totally different |
| 20:39:49 | <Guest9064> | And I want to practice it by building a project |
| 20:39:49 | <[exa]> | well it's a general language so whatever you want should work. it's really good for text- and structure-chewing tools (think compilers or pandoc) and various web things (microservices, static content generators) |
| 20:40:01 | <Guest9064> | oh |
| 20:40:07 | <Guest9064> | What about machine learning? |
| 20:40:12 | <Guest9064> | Like Sentiment-Analysis? |
| 20:40:25 | <monodoom> | If you forget objects, everything is better in Haskell. |
| 20:40:30 | × | benjaminl quits (~benjaminl@user/benjaminl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 20:40:30 | <Guest9064> | hahahah |
| 20:40:44 | <Guest9064> | Make totally sense |
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| 20:40:47 | <[exa]> | machine learning is more like about preprocessing data (pain) and multiplying enough matrices (hardware hurts), I'd say language doesn't matter there a lot |
| 20:41:00 | <[exa]> | everything is shifted towards pythons in that community tho |
| 20:41:02 | <Guest9064> | I was thinking about the libraries |
| 20:41:33 | <Guest9064> | Like if there is a library with things done |
| 20:41:36 | <monodoom> | We don't have good or plentiful of machine learning libraries though. |
| 20:41:50 | <[exa]> | there's also nice projects for utilizing GPUs for whatever, incl. machine learning algorithms |
| 20:41:59 | <monodoom> | There ought to be something but I am not into that fad so I don't know. |
| 20:42:40 | <Guest9064> | mmm |
| 20:42:46 | <[exa]> | https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/#cat:Machine%20Learning |
| 20:42:48 | <Guest9064> | Well, something is better than nothing |
| 20:42:55 | <[exa]> | oh wow there's a typed pytorch clone |
| 20:43:00 | <Guest9064> | wow |
| 20:43:04 | <Guest9064> | nice |
| 20:43:11 | <Guest9064> | thank you very much |
| 20:43:23 | <monodoom> | Generally: Is Haskell good for writing programs properly? Yes. Is Haskell good for the latest fad? No. |
| 20:44:24 | <Guest9064> | Understandable |
| 20:44:46 | <Guest9064> | My teacher from college said that Haskell is quite used in finantial sector |
| 20:44:50 | <[exa]> | Guest9064: btw for starting I always recommend to code a game in Gloss (easiest interface to graphics ever) and in Brick (same but for terminals) |
| 20:44:51 | <Guest9064> | more like security aspects |
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| 20:45:58 | <[exa]> | yeah that's a nice language property, if you manage to type your stuff well, the chances of making a stupid mistake are, like, small |
| 20:46:09 | <Guest9064> | Nice |
| 20:46:16 | <Guest9064> | Thanks for all the recommendations and tips |
| 20:46:32 | <[exa]> | financials love stuff that doesn't break |
| 20:46:37 | <Guest9064> | hahahah |
| 20:46:38 | <Guest9064> | make sense |
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| 20:46:50 | <Guest9064> | hope to see you guys frequently |
| 20:46:58 | <Guest9064> | nice to know that the community is quite active |
| 20:47:00 | <[exa]> | there was some bitcoin-related stuff (hledger?) |
| 20:47:06 | <Guest9064> | wow |
| 20:47:14 | <geekosaur> | hledger is plaintext accounting |
| 20:47:20 | <[exa]> | ah. :D |
| 20:47:21 | <Guest9064> | nice to know |
| 20:47:25 | <geekosaur> | cardano's the bitcoin thing |
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| 20:47:30 | <monodoom> | hledger is a spreadsheet. But there is blockchain stuff from IOHK. |
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| 20:48:05 | <monodoom> | err I guess "accounting" is more accurate than "spreadsheet". |
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| 20:50:11 | <[exa]> | smarter spreadsheets |
| 20:50:19 | <[exa]> | btw no idea how I assumed it's bitcoin |
| 20:50:34 | <[exa]> | interesting. |
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| 20:53:03 | <monodoom> | accounting -> money -> crypto money? :) |
| 20:53:25 | <monodoom> | "This is how LLMs work." >:) |
| 20:53:27 | <int-e> | there's also the "distributed ledger" keyword to cause confusion |
| 20:53:52 | <monodoom> | Ah that is a much stronger correlation. |
| 20:54:13 | <int-e> | . o O ( low-level machines ) |
| 20:55:09 | <monodoom> | Well, in light of SECD and STG being "high-level machines"... :) |
| 20:55:25 | <monodoom> | It's lasagna all the way down. |
| 20:56:14 | <int-e> | linguistic lasagna manufacturing |
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| 21:08:01 | <[exa]> | hm yeah looks like I got LLMcinnated by the distributed ledgers. |
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| 21:53:35 | <EvanR> | that's either the 2nd or 3rd ld.lld error dump issue this week |
| 21:53:51 | <EvanR> | did windows implode |
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| 22:00:03 | <[exa]> | last like 28 years I've been waiting patiently for the windows implosion to conclude |
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| 22:07:16 | <EvanR> | a common theme in esoteric programming languages is the ability to somehow get chars from standard input them somehow yield chars to standard output. If you take STLC with nothing but unit type and function type as an esoteric language, I'm wondering how to accomplish this xD |
| 22:07:58 | <EvanR> | extensionally it seems like there is exactly 1 function of any type |
| 22:10:00 | <EvanR> | you could say the input char determines the argument type, encoding one of 256 different possibilities |
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| 22:10:57 | <EvanR> | your program takes 256 arguments of the appropriate type xD |
| 22:11:05 | <EvanR> | wait no |
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| 22:16:13 | <[exa]> | for the pure calculus you have to interpret the chars into functions and then interpret the functions that you get back to chars |
| 22:17:28 | <EvanR> | if the function type representing chars is fixed, there would be no way to observe the difference |
| 22:17:34 | <EvanR> | from inside the language |
| 22:17:41 | <[exa]> | that's true |
| 22:18:15 | <[exa]> | you only get the functions that you can run on stuff, for observing the differences you need to smuggle in something observable |
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| 22:19:49 | <[exa]> | e.g. λ program gives you a church numeral (basically e.g. (λfx.f(f(f x))) standing for 3; to see what that does you push in an "ugly impure" function `increase` and value `0` to recover the integer |
| 22:20:02 | <[exa]> | which is funnily similar to what haskell does with IO |
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| 22:21:08 | <[exa]> | (s/"ugly impure"/"ugly"/ -- this one's actually pure but doesn't really need to be) |
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| 22:25:38 | <EvanR> | program returns a church numeral and rts interprets it as a number. Ok. For input rts converts number to church numeral. And this input can make a difference? |
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| 22:26:35 | <EvanR> | ok, it makes a difference if you can see the terms |
| 22:26:43 | <EvanR> | weird |
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| 22:30:21 | <EvanR> | ironically that setup is not well typed, since you can return a bogus numeral |
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| 23:52:49 | <duncan> | hledger is one of the flagship haskell programs, probably only pandoc and xmonad are more popular. |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-10-29.