Logs on 2023-10-30 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:08:50 | <Axman6> | I wonder how hard it would be to come up with a type safe grammar for roman numerals; could be a fun homework question (ping monodoom, who I assume is monochrom) |
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| 00:11:02 | <newsham> | hello haskell. I was wondering if the Pan image manipulation library is stilled maintained and works in modern haskell, or if there are any more recent libraries with a similar approach and philosophy that are maintained and working for modern haskell. |
| 00:13:31 | <EvanR> | Axman6, is IIII allowed? |
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| 00:23:35 | <TMA> | Axman6: remember that the original Romans used numbers like XIIX for 18 (the words are "duo de viginti" which means "two off twenty" i.e. 20-2) |
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| 00:26:03 | <TMA> | Axman6: but IIX was not permissible for 8. Sometimes they even mixed the subtraction and addition: XLIIII for 44 |
| 00:29:47 | <EvanR> | data N = I | V | X | L, type RN = Bag N |
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| 00:31:33 | <geekosaur> | what about C, D, M? |
| 00:31:56 | <EvanR> | those too |
| 00:32:59 | <newsham> | are you defining operations over that N datatype? |
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| 00:36:05 | <TMA> | what about | Ↄ Φ Ψ ↀ ↁ ↂ ↈ ↇ ...? |
| 00:36:41 | <TMA> | and ↆ and ↅ ... :) |
| 00:42:05 | <EvanR> | might as well |
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| 00:59:43 | <yin> | are Maps subject to fusion? |
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| 01:13:15 | <geekosaur> | how would that work? |
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| 01:19:19 | <EvanR> | fromList [('a',1),('b',2)] `union` fromList [('b',2),('c',3)] = fromList [('a',1),('b',2),('c',3)] ? |
| 01:19:49 | <EvanR> | fromList xs `union` fromList ys = fromList (xs ++ ys) ? |
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| 01:34:04 | <Axman6> | EvanR: No, absolutely not =) |
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| 01:34:51 | <EvanR> | philistines! |
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| 02:26:32 | <monodoom> | % Data.Map.fromList [('a',1),('b',2)] `Data.Map.union` Data.Map.fromList [('b',20),('c',3)] |
| 02:26:33 | <yahb2> | fromList [('a',1),('b',2),('c',3)] |
| 02:26:42 | <monodoom> | % Data.Map.fromList [('a',1),('b',2),('b',20),('c',3)] |
| 02:26:43 | <yahb2> | fromList [('a',1),('b',20),('c',3)] |
| 02:26:48 | <monodoom> | Unfortunately. :) |
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| 02:47:47 | <jackdk> | would also be nice if we had `instance (Ord k, Semigroup v) => Monoid (Map k v)`, but alas. |
| 02:48:06 | <jackdk> | I know that `monoidal-containers` exists, but I don't always want to pull in `lens` just to have that instance. |
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| 02:55:11 | <Guest7> | howdy |
| 02:55:16 | <geekosaur> | hi |
| 02:55:23 | <Guest7> | im disgruntled! |
| 02:55:28 | <Guest7> | about build systems |
| 02:55:43 | <Guest7> | i cant get openCV to install |
| 02:56:14 | <Guest7> | i had similar problems with various other C ports |
| 02:56:23 | <Guest7> | i would like to understand an approach to this |
| 02:56:40 | <Guest7> | do we eventually write everything in pure haskell, just to get reproducable builds? |
| 02:57:16 | <Guest7> | is there another tool, in the realm of build chain tools, that could be applied to this issue? |
| 02:57:17 | <geekosaur> | rewriting every C library in Haskell would be a massive amount of effort and a lot of duplicated work, so we bind to C libraries a lot |
| 02:57:51 | <Guest7> | it places a fault in an otherwise robust build chain |
| 02:57:52 | <geekosaur> | if you mean "something that will figure out my system's native package tool and do the work for me", good luck. there are too many different possibilities |
| 02:58:32 | <Guest7> | idk, what to suggest, my brain vaguely conjours something like nix or stack but with the C libs also |
| 02:58:52 | <geekosaur> | google has the resources to do that with go. nobody else does |
| 02:58:58 | <Guest7> | even hackage is buggy with versions, like why stack in the first place |
| 02:59:13 | <Guest7> | with go? |
| 02:59:17 | <geekosaur> | stack is pretty much obsolete, and the fault was never with hackage |
| 02:59:29 | <Guest7> | go as a high level build system? |
| 02:59:42 | <geekosaur> | golang uses all-golang dependencies, because google can afford to duplicate work |
| 03:00:04 | <Guest7> | hackage had some ghc versioning mismatch issue, stack was supposed to get the correct ghc to avoid backwards dependency issues, iiuc |
| 03:00:18 | <geekosaur> | you understand wrong |
| 03:00:23 | <Guest7> | derp, nvm |
| 03:00:45 | <Guest7> | yeah, tbh i never really understood stack, what about nix though, actual snapshots seem robust |
| 03:00:59 | <geekosaur> | packages which have specific dependencies on haskell's base library must be built with the ghc version that includes that version of base |
| 03:01:15 | <geekosaur> | stack sorts this for you as part of a resolver, but then you need to know which resolver to use |
| 03:01:45 | <geekosaur> | \cabal leaves it to you to install the appropriate ghc, but then does the rest. with ghcup this isn't usually a problem |
| 03:01:58 | <Guest7> | well, if you know how |
| 03:02:14 | <Guest7> | i could just about manage to get stack to work, and then it just fell off the face of the earth! |
| 03:02:22 | <geekosaur> | stack exists because early versions of cabal could cause complicated dependency issues (diamond dependencies). that was fixed long ago |
| 03:02:37 | <geekosaur> | hm? stack's still there |
| 03:03:14 | <Guest7> | nix seemed really robust though, and from what i understand about its completeness as a language, it looked like, idk how youd say it, like, a good external language in which builds could be expressed using a functional paradigm (right?) |
| 03:03:42 | <Guest7> | ahh, so it was a solution to a problem that nolonger exists, fair enough |
| 03:03:46 | <geekosaur> | impure function and with a very high learning curve, but otherwise yes |
| 03:03:55 | <geekosaur> | *functional |
| 03:04:17 | <jackdk> | Nix does indeed solve that problem well, and the language is a servicable-but-somewhat-janky lazy ML-style language |
| 03:04:18 | <Guest7> | and then im missing the point to think this makes it a candidate for expressing a robust dependable build system including for C deps? |
| 03:04:37 | <geekosaur> | it's also got its own share of problems, like when you want to combine two different derivations that solve the same configuration issue in incompatible ways |
| 03:04:50 | <Guest7> | couldnt get backpack to work with nix |
| 03:05:13 | <Guest7> | talked about it with both comunities that deffered the issue to the other! |
| 03:05:14 | <geekosaur> | and then there's the isk space requirement |
| 03:05:16 | <geekosaur> | *disk |
| 03:05:41 | <Guest7> | iv seen openCV projects being built using makefiles! |
| 03:05:56 | <Guest7> | and various incomplete ports in different branches |
| 03:06:02 | <Guest7> | none of which are buildable |
| 03:06:14 | <Guest7> | or at least, not without some crazy unknown steps |
| 03:06:36 | <Guest7> | im thinking, like, what would a future solution to this actually look like |
| 03:06:47 | <Guest7> | and, is it even within the remit of the haskell comunity |
| 03:06:58 | <Guest7> | like, what happened to all the gnu, sort of thing |
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| 03:07:29 | <Guest7> | it cant be, literally write pure ports |
| 03:07:44 | <Guest7> | but then, its, be stuck with highly unstable build systems |
| 03:08:46 | <Guest7> | "oh its unix, so you have to use pkg-config, oh all thosee packages nolonger exist, its broken" |
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| 03:10:09 | <Guest7> | and then like, even if the C libs install using apt-get, by the time its updated man-db then cabal just gives some crazy error like it cant access the pkg-config database correctly |
| 03:10:37 | <Guest7> | weird workarounds that involve manually creating files and placing them in obscure destinations in the linux filesystem |
| 03:10:52 | <Guest7> | which as a windows user is lie, this is starting to get frustratingly specialist |
| 03:10:59 | <Guest7> | might as well be arch by that point |
| 03:12:07 | <Guest7> | which leads me to suspect a solution might consist of simply a better approach to integrating cabal with pkg-config essentially |
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| 03:12:41 | <Guest7> | im sure this must be a common issue too |
| 03:12:52 | <monodoom> | Oh arch? We've pretty much given up on arch. |
| 03:12:53 | <Guest7> | since that seems to be the accepted approach |
| 03:13:11 | <Guest7> | monodoom: id call it intermittent at best |
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| 03:13:45 | <jackdk> | I have never seen anything like you describe on well-behaved native packages which provide a .pc file |
| 03:14:06 | <Guest7> | i could probably reproduce the issue |
| 03:14:32 | <jackdk> | Which is not to say that your problem isn't real, but that we're probably looking at very different library bubbles. Is the root problem that opencv has a lot of research code in it, and research programmers are often not software engineers who are good at build systems? |
| 03:14:33 | <Guest7> | but it seems like this happens *every* time! so im not sure how you could not have encountered that! |
| 03:15:09 | <Guest7> | jackdk: probably could explain the use of makefiles! ill try and find a link hangon |
| 03:15:31 | <Guest7> | there was some fork that had them adjusting the focal distance of a webcam, ill see if i can find it hangon |
| 03:15:41 | <Guest7> | (proper driver level stuff i was after) |
| 03:15:55 | <Guest7> | kind of mimics openGL in that respect |
| 03:16:15 | <Guest7> | yes, i think actually its unfair to lump these driver containing packages in with "all C progs" |
| 03:16:32 | <Guest7> | pure ports to driver level C libs? |
| 03:16:34 | <jackdk> | These days I rely on Nix a lot, so I guess much of this stuff gets hidden by the hard work of nixpkgs people |
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| 03:20:39 | <Guest7> | heres one |
| 03:20:40 | <Guest7> | https://github.com/sinelaw/HOpenCV/blob/master/demo/cannyVideo.hs |
| 03:21:13 | <Guest7> | heres tother |
| 03:21:15 | <Guest7> | https://github.com/acowley/HOpenCV/blob/master/src/Examples/VideoFunhouse/VideoFunhouse.hs |
| 03:21:42 | <monodoom> | I haven't used nix. I just use ubuntu. I am among the silent majority who have had none of those issues or even know what they are talking about. (What is "C port"?) |
| 03:21:58 | <Guest7> | jackdk: yeah i found some of the openCV work used nix, but i think the hopenCV are more obscure? |
| 03:22:42 | <Guest7> | monodoom: most things are written in C. haskell advocates to use the FFI to port these bindings |
| 03:22:59 | <Guest7> | porsts spring up but are not maintained, they get bitrotten |
| 03:23:15 | <Guest7> | haskell offers a build environment that is more robust |
| 03:23:33 | <Guest7> | but because these packages escape that realm, so they introduce a point of common failiure |
| 03:23:44 | <Guest7> | beyond the remit of the haskell comunity to engage in |
| 03:23:48 | <monodoom> | Huh "port" does not mean that. |
| 03:24:02 | <Guest7> | please excuse my ignorance |
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| 03:24:35 | <Guest7> | you "port" a C lib, pretty sure thats just the word for making it usable in haskell |
| 03:25:28 | <Guest7> | i mean, again, this is specifically for driver level stuff |
| 03:25:42 | <Guest7> | otherwise mostly we would just be using C for mallocation |
| 03:26:30 | <jackdk> | I don't think that's right. I read "port" as "rewrite all the functions in a different language, so that you can do equivalent work without FFI". I read "bind" as "write a bunch of `foreign import` declarations" or whatever so that the library can be called from a higher-level language" |
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| 03:32:24 | <Inst> | I'm just curious, though, where do you guys see Haskell in 5 years? |
| 03:32:30 | <Inst> | yandere |
| 03:32:36 | <Inst> | folks, excuse me |
| 03:33:00 | <Inst> | There doesn't seem to be a plan, and everything is ad hoc :( |
| 03:36:10 | <monodoom> | There was never a plan. |
| 03:36:55 | <monodoom> | Only capitalist corporations and communist regimes need those 5-year plans. |
| 03:37:18 | <Guest7> | and people dying |
| 03:37:43 | <Guest7> | haskell is built using a time machine, there is a huge paradox to do with what happens first |
| 03:38:06 | <Guest7> | youd wnt as many of the "eventual" developments to have been there the whole time |
| 03:38:24 | <Guest7> | like how i come on here and basically call for nix to be invented, which it already has |
| 03:39:26 | <Guest7> | ... |
| 03:39:37 | <Guest7> | my biggest call to arms is regarding levity recursion |
| 03:39:50 | <Guest7> | apparently haskell was designed buggy for some motivational reason |
| 03:40:23 | <Guest7> | while it supports graph expressions at top level, this is not straightforwardly mimicked at type level |
| 03:40:50 | <Guest7> | you basically want type level inference of the "complete" function expansion graph |
| 03:41:18 | <Guest7> | eg so that with an fpga, you could place fast circuits ahead of time, for commonly used patterns |
| 03:41:29 | <Guest7> | im not sure if this is called acceleration by static analysis |
| 03:42:04 | <Guest7> | but something to do with programs to express complex informationaful types that are shape indicating during compilation to enable acceleration... basically is what im getting at |
| 03:42:37 | <Guest7> | where then the discrepancy towards dynamic typing becomes the focus |
| 03:42:59 | <Guest7> | between type and value level. particularly the mechanisms of let and lambda binding in parsing |
| 03:43:41 | <Guest7> | there is some theory to do with how dereferencing and pattern matching essentially form some kind of turing completeness diagram |
| 03:44:01 | <Guest7> | so not having mature mechanisms for that at type level is "the deliberate error in haskell" |
| 03:44:08 | <Guest7> | id expect to see more work done around that |
| 03:45:03 | <Guest7> | ... and some caveat about terminating compilations being niche |
| 03:45:40 | <Guest7> | for the coends among us |
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| 03:47:11 | <Guest7> | aka we await type level inline binding |
| 03:47:43 | <Guest7> | the reason i suspect this as a deliberate error, is that it indicates the fundamentals at the heart of the issue |
| 03:48:06 | <Guest7> | highlighting the importance of the expressibility of graphs via the ability to handle recursive definitions |
| 03:48:35 | <Guest7> | recursive datatypes obviously go some way towards this, but its more to do with top level syntax infact |
| 03:48:47 | <Guest7> | just about binding into scope |
| 03:49:21 | <Guest7> | and it being amazing how profound the (PRESUMABLY CATEGORICAL) formalism surrounding these scope issues actually are |
| 03:49:50 | <Guest7> | at the point where "everything you want is just pattern matching" |
| 03:50:04 | <Guest7> | and then, like, whats up with the type system!? |
| 03:50:14 | <Guest7> | i hope that makes sense! |
| 03:50:27 | <Guest7> | i cant really speak to the intricacies of the formalisation of what i just said |
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| 03:51:12 | <Guest7> | something like "how pattern matching gives graphs and some far reaching completeness indications" |
| 03:51:20 | <Guest7> | somehow |
| 03:51:37 | <Guest7> | id love to see that properly developed by someone other than me within my lifetime |
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| 04:09:05 | <Inst> | ummm, okay |
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| 04:42:11 | <Guest7> | like, a while back everyone was on about dependent types |
| 04:42:21 | <Guest7> | what im saying is, that this is essentially a misnomer |
| 04:42:32 | <Guest7> | and what we actually want, is very close to what we already have |
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| 04:42:51 | <Guest7> | what we want is the ability to express recursive type level programs *not at TOP level* |
| 04:43:15 | <Guest7> | that basically, haskell is graphically complete at type level, but only using top level syntax |
| 04:43:33 | <Guest7> | the fact that this distinguishes it from value level syntax, is actually the only problem we have |
| 04:44:18 | <Guest7> | there is an idiom in which all type level programs that are expressable in haskell can have similar expressions for terms, but that by not using where, let, or lambda bindings, and constraining all expressions to top level, that this is a significant difference |
| 04:44:30 | <Guest7> | its basicaly just a syntax "sugar" issue |
| 04:44:40 | <Guest7> | but where these scoping considerations have profound ramifications |
| 04:44:41 | <Inst> | Guest7, it's a really long monologue, no? |
| 04:44:54 | <Guest7> | its a detraction, no? |
| 04:45:01 | <Guest7> | just talk to the issue |
| 04:45:06 | <Guest7> | please |
| 04:45:32 | <Guest7> | it would be wrong to discourage others that may be interested or that could assist |
| 04:45:35 | <yandere> | Inst: what's up? |
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| 04:46:24 | <Guest7> | probably haskell has become too politicised to advance! :-D |
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| 04:47:01 | <Inst> | just me wishing for Haskell Foundation to help set a sense of direction |
| 04:47:12 | <Guest7> | could anyone comment on the points i raise about scoping considerations regarding haskells near term objectives |
| 04:47:53 | <Guest7> | Inst: the fact they did this by leaving it essentially *broken* to draw attention to something *important* |
| 04:48:03 | <monodoom> | Nope. |
| 04:48:13 | <Guest7> | ? |
| 04:48:19 | <Guest7> | im i missing something here? |
| 04:48:46 | <Guest7> | its about dependent types being a misnomer surrounding type level scoping considerations |
| 04:48:57 | <Guest7> | like do you want it any more clearly expressed!? |
| 04:49:30 | <Guest7> | as far as i can tell this has been the principle misdirection in the development of functional programing in recent years |
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| 04:50:21 | <Guest7> | as far as i can tell its as serious issue as idris is a mature language |
| 04:50:22 | <Inst> | monodoom: is the new name permanent? |
| 04:50:34 | <monodoom> | It's for Halloween. |
| 04:52:15 | <Guest7> | i should appologise slightly for my accusatory tone, basically im insisting that we were misled into producing AGDA, idris and COQ by considerations regarding halting, graphical completeness as isomorphic to turing completeness (turing tapes express a graph in a weird linearised way) |
| 04:53:02 | <Guest7> | and that the scoping considerations that would allow inline recursive definitions at type level should always have been our focus, since it was what was ommited to motivate those segways |
| 04:53:24 | <Guest7> | if the comunity cannot speak to these issues i am at a loss, which i resent as an imposition |
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| 04:55:52 | <Guest7> | im fielding a question regarding the 5 year plan for haskell, with a retrospective to the essentially sidelined efforts into dependently typed languages, that attempt to unify type and term level in a way other than simply facilitating recursive type level definitions in restricted scope, and indicating that this clearly motivates those |
| 04:55:52 | <Guest7> | developments be persued as part of the comunity effort |
| 04:56:09 | <Guest7> | if the comunity in response can only talk past the issues, then i think there is something wrong frankly |
| 05:02:15 | dibblego | remembers back in the day :) |
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| 05:27:27 | <haskellbridge> | 08<tewuzij> What is that misdirection? |
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| 05:47:25 | <Inst> | Where do I see Haskell in 5 years, though? |
| 05:47:58 | <Inst> | Tooling has become mature, certain tooling bases are highly maintainable and extensible, and error messages are at least comparable to Rust. |
| 05:48:32 | <Inst> | Ecosystem is pretty robust, and has a lot of libraries suited for quick hacking, alongside libraries built for building quality, maintainable code. |
| 05:48:52 | <Inst> | Haskell Foundation is pulling 5 million a year, and dependent types have been a thing for at least 12 months. |
| 05:49:29 | <Inst> | No one bothers posting "Haskell is dying", and the traditional correctness / math part of the community is healthy and not under siege by other parts, without pushing out the pragmatists either. |
| 05:50:03 | <Inst> | Size of the community is 2-3x current size, but growth has stalled awaiting community discussion as to whether further growth is worth it. |
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| 05:53:05 | <Inst> | Also, my other bug-bear? maybe, 20-30% of the Haskell community identifies as female. |
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| 06:10:07 | <yin> | which would be more efficient? IntMap String vs IntMap Text |
| 06:10:16 | <yin> | nope, sorry |
| 06:10:32 | <yin> | `Map String a` vs `Map Text a` |
| 06:14:13 | <Inst> | why would map string a be less efficient than map string text? |
| 06:15:31 | <dolio> | They're both probably not good. |
| 06:16:38 | <Inst> | data constructors are usually represented by an int, right? |
| 06:17:01 | <Inst> | i mean nullary data constructors |
| 06:18:18 | <Inst> | so in theory you can set up an EnumMap a type |
| 06:18:57 | <c_wraith> | not really. |
| 06:19:40 | <Inst> | ancient |
| 06:19:41 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/EnumMap |
| 06:19:43 | <Inst> | EnumMap a b |
| 06:19:51 | <Inst> | or rather EnumMap e a |
| 06:19:58 | <Inst> | where e is phantom |
| 06:21:31 | <c_wraith> | a portion of the object header is a tag indicating which constructor it is. But it's far less than word-size. |
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| 06:45:02 | <Inst> | why |
| 06:45:03 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/tag/catgirls |
| 06:45:11 | <Inst> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/nekos-best |
| 06:48:30 | <Inst> | the only thing I have to say for it is that I like the library API and documentation |
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| 07:00:04 | <Inst> | why is foldr in Data.List defined in terms of foldmap and appendo these days? |
| 07:01:01 | <c_wraith> | because Data.List is just re-exporting the Data.Foldable definition |
| 07:01:37 | <c_wraith> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.0.0/docs/src/GHC.Base.html#foldr is the actual *list* implementation |
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| 07:14:14 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> <geekosaur> stack is pretty much obsolete |
| 07:14:15 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> I disagree with this statement |
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| 07:51:33 | <[exa]> | EvanR: can you actually get a bogus numeral if you typecheck them numerals to satisfy (α→α)→(α→α) ? |
| 07:51:55 | <[exa]> | (note: in STLC they can't even diverge) |
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| 08:49:30 | <danse-nr3> | does anybody know whether nested definition lists are supported by haddock? |
| 08:51:14 | <danse-nr3> | (also ... good morning ...) |
| 09:01:27 | <danse-nr3> | well nevermind i can do without |
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| 09:20:01 | <faibistes_> | When installing on WSL, I'm getting ghcup: /home/faibistes/.ghcup/cache/ghcup-0.0.7.yaml.tmp: renameFile:renamePath:rename: does not exist (No such file or directory) |
| 09:20:12 | <faibistes_> | any clues? |
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| 09:27:41 | <danse-nr3> | nope. Which of those folders or files exist? Maybe some directory structure got corrupted |
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| 09:28:54 | <tomsmeding> | they're gone already :p |
| 09:29:31 | <danse-nr3> | oops |
| 09:29:50 | <danse-nr3> | thanks i had not noticed |
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| 10:14:25 | <haskellbridge> | 14<maerwald> Sounds like curl is broken |
| 10:14:46 | <haskellbridge> | 14<maerwald> Download didn't succeed, but the exit codes don't indicate it |
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| 10:15:45 | <haskellbridge> | 14<maerwald> Try: curl https://raw.githubusercontent.com/haskell/ghcup-metadata/develop/ghcup-0.0.7.yaml |
| 10:15:55 | <tomsmeding> | maerwald: they're gone |
| 10:16:20 | <haskellbridge> | 14<maerwald> Such is life |
| 10:16:27 | <tomsmeding> | 'tis |
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| 14:41:57 | <Guest5809> | hello |
| 14:42:06 | <Guest5809> | How can i create a project with haskell? |
| 14:42:17 | <Guest5809> | like setting the environment |
| 14:45:19 | <exarkun> | That's a little vague. Can you be bit more specific? |
| 14:47:09 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> `stack new` or `cabal init` commands probably |
| 14:47:16 | <danse-nr3_> | it is a bit vague, but the main tools to start a project are cabal or stack, unless you mean an IDE project. If you are new to haskell, also make sure you are using ghcup, simplifies a lot of the management |
| 14:47:38 | <ddellacosta> | have you checked this out Guest5809 ? https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/steps/ May be helpful |
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| 14:48:49 | <Guest5809> | Yea, Cabal is what i was thinking |
| 14:48:50 | <Guest5809> | thx |
| 14:49:27 | <danse-nr3_> | we need a `,next` here like in #emacs |
| 14:49:53 | <ddellacosta> | danse-nr3_: what does that do, automatically dump out helpful beginner resources or something? |
| 14:50:31 | <danse-nr3_> | nope it just prints something along the lines of "Another satisfied customer. Next!" :P |
| 14:50:37 | <ddellacosta> | oh haha |
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| 15:07:06 | <EvanR> | what a giant polemic last night when everyone was asleep |
| 15:08:33 | <geekosaur> | we need more mods for when north america is asleep |
| 15:08:47 | <geekosaur> | candidates welcome in #haskell-ops |
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| 15:09:04 | <geekosaur> | of course, the US is awake now which means any candidates are probably asleep 🙂 |
| 15:09:40 | <c_wraith> | I object to being awake. |
| 15:09:48 | <EvanR> | me too |
| 15:09:52 | <geekosaur> | so do I, actually |
| 15:10:25 | <EvanR> | need a () -> ☕ |
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| 15:21:32 | <danse-nr3_> | what was the polemic about? |
| 15:22:24 | <danse-nr3_> | going offline, but i will check the logs upon rejoining |
| 15:25:18 | <EvanR> | hard to say |
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| 18:47:56 | <redmp> | What is the difference between mtl:Control.Monad.Error.Class and mtl:Control.Monad.Except these days? Is one recommended? |
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| 18:49:30 | <geekosaur> | Control.Monad.Error.Class is the framework. it's not very useful by itself; you need one of mtl, mtl-tf, or an effects system to make use of it. Control.Monad.Error is mtl (and mtl-tf) |
| 18:49:47 | <geekosaur> | oh, Except. Error is deprecated, Except is preferred |
| 18:50:21 | <geekosaur> | mtl removed support for Error and I thought transformers removed it as well |
| 18:50:28 | <monodoom> | In this case you can pretty much look at the export list and see which one you need. But one of them is a superset. |
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| 18:52:09 | <redmp> | iirc there used to be a deprecation warning at the top of the haddocks in one of the modules, but i don't see it anymore.. however, the readme does say .Error is deprecated, so I'll prefer .Except; thanks! |
| 18:54:43 | <ski> | importing `Control.Monad.Error' give a deprecation here |
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| 18:58:25 | <int-e> | I still find that deprecation disingenious because `fail` behaves differently in those two monads. |
| 19:00:05 | <int-e> | (or monad transformers) |
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| 19:14:06 | <redmp> | ski: so it does! |
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| 19:22:31 | ski | idly ponders `sameFringe :: Eq a => Tree a -> Tree a -> Bool' |
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| 19:25:37 | <ski> | (specification, `sameFringe t0 t1 = toList t0 == toList t1'. using `data Tree a = Empty | Leaf a | Branch (Tree a) (Tree a)' (although that's not too important)) |
| 19:27:03 | <[exa]> | (same-fringe? t1 t2) was more of a scheme call/cc problem no? |
| 19:27:20 | <ski> | it's in one continuation papers, using Scheme, yes |
| 19:27:30 | <ski> | s/one/one of the/ |
| 19:27:42 | <[exa]> | kinda wondering where I saw that |
| 19:27:54 | <ski> | (i forgot which. could probably hunt it down, have a rough idea of where it may've been) |
| 19:28:11 | <monodoom> | In lieu of lazy evaluation, yes deliminted continuations are the next best option. |
| 19:28:19 | <ski> | i'm playing around with implementing it in terms of coroutines |
| 19:28:28 | <ski> | (using Haskell, yes) |
| 19:29:03 | <[exa]> | ah it was teach-yourself scheme |
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| 19:29:14 | <ski> | (a la my implementation of `zipWith' in terms of two calls to `foldr' for traversing the lists (no other deconstruction of them)) |
| 19:29:45 | <ski> | well, i didn't really read that one, so it must've come from elsewhere, prior to that |
| 19:29:53 | <[exa]> | likely |
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| 19:31:15 | <ski> | anyway .. solving it, without first transforming to those two intermediate lists isn't too hard. but i'd like to introduce no intermediate data structures at all |
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| 19:32:31 | <EvanR> | what is fringe, the leaves? |
| 19:32:37 | <ski> | yea |
| 19:32:44 | <ski> | the sequence of leaves |
| 19:34:01 | <ski> | (and it occured to me that this could be a good fit for the coroutine approach, to try it out on a different problem, see if it has to be adapted somewhat, or if one can learn something more) |
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| 19:35:33 | <Guest37> | using coroutines will introduce an intermediate data structure, except the user won't have to explicitly do it. |
| 19:35:50 | <Guest37> | yes, coroutines are good for doing this |
| 19:36:01 | <ski> | technically, yes |
| 19:37:19 | <ski> | (when i said "intermediate data structures", i excluded functions) |
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| 19:51:09 | <EvanR> | convert the fringe in a church-encoded list? xD |
| 19:51:16 | <EvanR> | into |
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| 19:54:52 | <ski> | kinda |
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| 19:56:58 | <Guest37> | https://legacy.cs.indiana.edu/~sabry/papers/yield.pdf |
| 19:57:17 | <Guest37> | That paper discusses a solution to the same fringe problem using coroutines |
| 19:57:41 | <Guest37> | But they first build the coroutine machinery using continuations. |
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| 19:58:57 | <ski> | hm, can't seem to find the paper, at a quick first stab |
| 19:59:21 | <Guest37> | link not working? |
| 19:59:44 | <ski> | ah, just noticed your link |
| 19:59:55 | <ski> | and no, i've definitely not read this one |
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| 20:00:41 | <ski> | (there was no C#,Ruby,&c. in it, i'm sure) |
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| 20:01:24 | <Guest37> | This one is done in haskell |
| 20:01:45 | <ski> | i was suspecting it may've been Thielecke or Filinski. or possibly Danvy (haven't checked yet) |
| 20:02:24 | <ski> | but it was years and years since i read it, too. more than fifteen, likely |
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| 20:02:46 | <ski> | i was thinking librafry.readscheme.org might've had it, as well, but no luck |
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| 20:03:00 | <ski> | s/librafry/library/ |
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| 20:03:59 | <ski> | (i think i probably have a printout of it lying around .. somewhere) |
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| 20:36:51 | <EvanR> | haskell is defined as non-strict, which supposedly leaves options open instead of dictating a particular evaluation order. In normal languages they also tend to not define their evaluation order. So are they necessarily strict? |
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| 20:37:45 | <EvanR> | or are they defact "not non-strict" |
| 20:37:50 | <EvanR> | o |
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| 20:40:45 | <geekosaur> | C has been tightening up its specification of evaluation order over the years iirc |
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| 20:48:36 | <mauke> | C has always been pretty restrictive when it comes to function calls |
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| 20:49:21 | <EvanR> | and you can't make restrictive without strict |
| 20:50:08 | <mauke> | f(g(h()), j()); has only 3 valid evaluation orders |
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| 20:50:43 | <EvanR> | j first, h first, and? |
| 20:51:15 | <mauke> | h, g, j, f; j, h, g, f; h, j, g, f |
| 20:52:34 | <mauke> | evaluation order is unspecified within the argument list of a function, but there are additional constraints: all arguments must be evaluated before a function body is entered; there is a sequence point before each call; and the execution of a function cannot overlap with other function calls (except for calls made from that function) |
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| 20:53:04 | <mauke> | so a function has to run through all the way and return before its caller can do anything else |
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| 22:51:46 | <EvanR> | how to write tail using foldr and not pattern matching on list |
| 22:52:18 | <EvanR> | I got a way that goes through Int by subtracting one from length, terrible! |
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| 22:55:28 | <monodoom> | There isn't a way faster than Ω(list length). |
| 22:55:50 | <EvanR> | smh |
| 22:56:14 | <monodoom> | But there is a way to eliminate that Int. |
| 22:56:54 | <ncf> | > let tail = snd . foldr (\x (xs, _) -> (x:xs, xs)) ([], []) in tail [1..5] |
| 22:56:55 | <lambdabot> | [2,3,4,5] |
| 22:57:34 | <ncf> | or ([], error "tail: empty list") |
| 22:58:06 | <EvanR> | of course... so obvious now |
| 22:58:11 | <monodoom> | foldr (\x r -> case r of {Nothing -> Just []; Just xs -> Just (x:xs)}) Nothing |
| 22:58:17 | <dolio> | There might be a trick using weird types. |
| 22:58:31 | <elevenkb> | i wonder what are the most interesting papers on Haskell's cost semantics? |
| 22:58:52 | <[Leary]> | monodoom: Isn't that init? |
| 22:59:04 | <monodoom> | Oh oops. |
| 22:59:17 | <ncf> | safeTail = snd . foldr (\x (xs, _) -> (x:xs, Just xs)) ([], Nothing) |
| 23:00:37 | <int-e> | > foldr (\x xs c -> c x (xs (:))) (\_ -> []) [1..5] (\x xs -> xs) |
| 23:00:39 | <lambdabot> | [2,3,4,5] |
| 23:00:45 | <EvanR> | is the Ω(list length) coming from this pair, in ncf's first version |
| 23:01:02 | <EvanR> | you have to go all the way to the end of the list first before the pair with the whole list (minus head) is ready |
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| 23:01:44 | <EvanR> | what about a lazy pattern |
| 23:01:51 | <monodoom> | No, something about the fundamental limitations of using catamorphisms to obtain destructors. |
| 23:02:18 | <int-e> | Heck you can't even get an efficient id: foldr (:) [] |
| 23:02:20 | <ncf> | int-e: terrifying |
| 23:02:36 | <monodoom> | If all you have is catamorphisms, then destructors must clone and omit one field. |
| 23:02:40 | <dolio> | You don't have to 'go all the way to the end,' but that version rebuilds each cons. |
| 23:03:13 | <ncf> | i have no idea how that works but it reminds me of hyperfunctions *shudder* |
| 23:03:17 | <dolio> | So if you do force the whole list, it adds cost proportional to the list size. |
| 23:03:44 | <EvanR> | I've having a hard time accounting for the cost of foldr (:) [] |
| 23:03:46 | <monodoom> | See also Lambek's lemma. (Although, it just says "here is one way", it doesn't say "can't be faster".) |
| 23:04:46 | <EvanR> | if the cost of copying 1 node is constant, then processing a list of any length has constant cost per item... no one will notice if it's spread over infinite time |
| 23:04:50 | <ncf> | okay i see it. you're building an uncons function |
| 23:05:14 | <int-e> | Hmm, I've seen a recursion scheme that gives you access to the tail along with each list element, does that have a name? |
| 23:05:58 | <dolio> | They will notice when iterating the tail n times adds cost at each node proportional to n. |
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| 23:06:35 | <EvanR> | yes, for tail |
| 23:06:45 | <ncf> | paramorphism? |
| 23:07:05 | <ncf> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramorphism |
| 23:07:16 | <int-e> | ncf: yes, thanks |
| 23:07:47 | <EvanR> | > let tail = snd . foldr (\x (xs, _) -> (x:xs, xs)) ([], []) in tail [1..] |
| 23:07:52 | <int-e> | (not a fan of the pair in their implementation, but whatever) |
| 23:07:56 | <lambdabot> | mueval-core: Time limit exceeded |
| 23:08:10 | <EvanR> | big omega of infinity |
| 23:08:17 | <EvanR> | can it be lazy |
| 23:08:45 | <int-e> | ~(xs, _) |
| 23:08:51 | <EvanR> | > let tail = snd . foldr (\x ~(xs, _) -> (x:xs, xs)) ([], []) in tail [1..] |
| 23:08:53 | <lambdabot> | [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29... |
| 23:08:54 | <EvanR> | NICE |
| 23:09:00 | <EvanR> | costs be damned |
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| 23:09:14 | <int-e> | > foldr (\x xs c -> c x (xs (:))) (\_ -> []) [1..] (\x xs -> xs) |
| 23:09:17 | <lambdabot> | [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29... |
| 23:09:34 | <EvanR> | I was trying to think of that one earlier... wow |
| 23:10:16 | <ncf> | that foldr has type [a] -> (a -> [a] -> r) -> r if i'm not mistaken |
| 23:10:25 | <ncf> | :t foldr (\x xs c -> c x (xs (:))) (\_ -> []) |
| 23:10:26 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => t a -> (a -> [a] -> [a]) -> [a] |
| 23:10:28 | <EvanR> | oof |
| 23:10:33 | <EvanR> | you cheater |
| 23:10:34 | <ncf> | ah r is forced |
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| 23:11:02 | <EvanR> | nvm, perfectly cromulent |
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| 23:11:45 | <EvanR> | it's hard to judge how much stuff costs with lazy evaluation because stuff that would normally take infinite time happens instantly |
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| 23:12:04 | <EvanR> | sounds like a feature not a bug |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-10-30.