Logs on 2023-11-14 (liberachat/#haskell)

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01:01:46	<haskellbridge>	08<tewuzij> The opposite of constitution
01:02:08	<ski>	destitution ?
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03:30:08	<hammond>	https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/performance/fannkuchredux.html
03:30:26	<hammond>	i find this hard to believe, pyhton and php faster than haskell?
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03:42:17	<yushyin>	run the benchmark yourself for php,python and haskell and see :)
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03:53:27	<EvanR>	look at the cpu load column
03:53:47	<[Leary]>	hammond: If you look at the CPU load, clearly something is going very wrong with the parallelism in that particular piece of code. If you also look a bit lower, there are more competitive Haskell entries in the "unsafe" category.
03:55:07	<EvanR>	also PHP 8 might not be a badly implemented as I remember from last time I used php (like php4)
03:56:52	<[Leary]>	Python can also be very fast when all the glue code falls away and it's just BLAS underneath. I'm actually surprised it's so low in the ranks.
03:58:40	<EvanR>	haskell code has this, flop (7:x1:x2:x3:x4:x5:x6:t) = x6:x5:x4:x3:x2:x1:7:t. I wonder if at this point using a vector or a strict data type with 8 fields would be better
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04:00:45	<EvanR>	nvm, it seems to be a longer list
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08:15:17	<Inst>	is a program of main = undefined tautologically correct in type theory?
08:15:41	<Inst>	i.e, is it a vacuous truth?
08:17:16	<Inst>	or main = main ;)
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09:42:50	<danse-nr3>	i thought `sort` could leverage non-strictness in order to be more efficient when parts of the returned list are not used, but it does not seem to be the case
09:43:05	<danse-nr3>	also, good morning from this slice of the world
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09:50:32	<Hecate>	morning danse-nr3
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09:50:43	<danse-nr3>	^^
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10:23:58	<mauke>	danse-nr3: how did you measure it?
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10:26:01	<danse-nr3>	not very accurately, i just did a quick test sorting a reversed list [0..<bignumber>] and calling head on it, and compared with the same + force
10:26:15	<danse-nr3>	and compared with `minimum`
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10:28:48	<mauke>	I think you'd have to time 'head (sort list)' for increasingly longer lists
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10:29:25	<mauke>	if it sorts the whole list, the time taken should grow faster than O(n)
10:29:48	<danse-nr3>	yeah not a bad idea, but if comparing with `force` for a long list does not show any advantage, it is enough for me i guess
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10:41:18	<__monty__>	wg 16
10:41:26	<__monty__>	>.< disregard
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10:59:48	<tomsmeding>	danse-nr3: head (sort list) cannot be better than O(n) because it has to locate the minimal element in the list
11:00:01	<tomsmeding>	and it'll do it less efficiently than `minimum` because, well, it's also sorting :p
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11:01:26	<danse-nr3>	sure, what i had hoped is it being faster than head . force . sort
11:02:06	<danse-nr3>	which it seems to be, but by less than 1%
11:04:08	<[Leary]>	danse-nr3: Try a random list. `sort` has special handling for ascending/descending runs, so you're sorting the whole list in linear time anyway.
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11:05:51	<danse-nr3>	does it? Had not expected that. I will try, thanks. In any case, it could be that an algorithm that works efficiently with `take` is not convenient in the general case, and maybe there is a sorting functions in some other package that works better for that case. I will try with random, thanks
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11:09:13	<xerox>	https://www.stackage.org/haddock/lts-21.20/base-4.17.2.0/src/Data.OldList.html#sort
11:09:50	<danse-nr3>	oooh. Thanks xerox
11:09:56	<xerox>	I was curious as well
11:10:39	<[Leary]>	Well, rather than "special handling", it would be better to say that it leverages the structure of the input list to provide better best-case and average-case performance. That involves pulling out these runs instead of merging up from singletons.
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11:11:34	<[Leary]>	Otherwise mergesort is always in the worst-case.
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13:06:17	<ski>	Inst : "tautologically correct" ? "is it a vacuous truth" ?
13:07:10	<Inst>	Just curious, it was something that came up when someone commented on some other handle
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13:09:14	<Inst>	i mean, is there any other way to make it so that main :: IO a?
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13:09:40	<Inst>	well, forget it, it's a silly brain fart on my end
13:10:13	<ski>	main = exitSuccess -- ?
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13:34:38	<bwe>	how can I replace single char of a ByteString? I did it with T.replace for Text. There is no BS.replace.
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13:37:17	<danse-nr3>	there is no char in byte strings i think, without an encoding
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13:51:15	<exarkun>	bwe: ByteString is made out of Word8
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13:52:05	<exarkun>	bwe: You might be looking for Data.ByteString.map
13:52:08	<bwe>	hell, the chaos of String, Text, ByteString, Word8 makes me wanna leave Haskell…
13:52:29	<danse-nr3>	it is a commonly shared disappointment
13:52:34	<hc>	Huh? It's very simple, except maybe that String shouldn't be the default
13:52:40	<exarkun>	It's a lot to keep straight.
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13:53:56	<hc>	I'm guessing a lot of people understand all the straingforward concepts like monoids in the category of endofactors and higher kinded types, then despair because they don't know they should have used Texts instead of Strings %}
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13:55:32	<bwe>	I am coming from an implementation with Text and consider changing Text to ByteString for performance. What's the improvement in your experience if I switch from Text to ByteString?
13:56:07	<exarkun>	bwe: "Performance" is not the reason to switch from Text to ByteString.
13:56:16	<exarkun>	Text is for unicode. ByteString is for bytes.
13:56:28	<bwe>	I need a guide when to use what
13:56:38	<exarkun>	Use Text for unicode. Use ByteString for bytes. ;) (sorry)
13:57:01	<exarkun>	(Of course you also have the strict vs lazy dimension to consider...)
13:57:22	<bwe>	exarkun: I assume you personally did not create that mess, nor whoever did planned to do so.
13:57:26	<hc>	Don't forget about ShortByteStrings btw ;p
13:57:32	<exarkun>	Did you do some profiling to determine that your Text operations are the bottleneck?
13:58:52	<bwe>	exarkun: yes, but I couldn't identify the bottleneck with profiling, except that TagSoup is slow.
13:59:37	<bwe>	exarkun: so, my I reasoned to provide it ByteString instead of Text to see what happens.
14:00:01	<bwe>	exarkun: however, if I get you right I will not get any benefit out of it in execution time, right?
14:00:23	<exarkun>	okay, reasonable I guess. But ByteString doesn't readily support all the same operations as Text so the transition might be tricky while preserving correctness.
14:00:40	<exarkun>	bwe: No, I don't mean to suggest Text and ByteString will always perform the same under the same operations.
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14:00:59	<exarkun>	I just meant to point out that a naive substitution of ByteString for Text might break your program.
14:01:02	<bwe>	exarkun: well, my use case is parsing HTML and text.
14:01:15	<bwe>	exarkun: that's exactly where I am in right now
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14:01:42	<exarkun>	bwe: Indeed. Sadly, HTML often carries non-ASCII code points, eg UTF-8 encoded, so using ByteString to deal with it is tricky.
14:02:08	<exarkun>	Do you know that there will be no non-ASCII, or that none of your operations will break if they run on the encoded form of those code points?
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14:02:30	<bwe>	exarkun: no, I don't know
14:02:49	<bwe>	exarkun: so, then does Text handle UTF-8 encoded input?
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14:03:07	<exarkun>	bwe: You can decode a ByteString using UTF-8 into a Text
14:03:16	<exarkun>	bwe: I assume that's what tagsoup does.
14:03:31	<exarkun>	(Or maybe it even reads the encoding from the input and decodes using the correct codec)
14:03:55	<exarkun>	Functions for that kind of thing are in Data.Text.Encoding
14:04:23	<exarkun>	Hum
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14:04:38	<stefan-__>	bwe: I found this quite helpful: https://gist.github.com/dino-/28b09c465c756c44b2c91d777408e166
14:04:39	<exarkun>	However, looking at tagsoup, I see that it parses with a `StringLike` typeclass .. which has both Text and ByteString instances
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14:05:21	<exarkun>	So, I dunno, maybe tagsoup knows how to safely operate directly on ByteString through the whole process.
14:05:41	<exarkun>	Then you only have to take care not to spoil that with whatever you add on top.
14:05:59	<exarkun>	(But also, maybe StringLike is where part of your runtime costs come from?)
14:06:22	<bwe>	exarkun: that's my feeling.
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14:08:29	<exarkun>	I wish I already had more experience with profiling in Haskell. I've probably now said everything useful I can say about it.
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14:10:21	<bwe>	exarkun: thanks for your time :)
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14:15:20	<carter>	The bottleneck is usually wherever you’re doing lots of allocations
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14:24:05	<bwe>	carter: how can I locate those? well, profiling is not trivial for the uninitiated.
14:24:36	<carter>	So you do a profiling build of your code
14:24:56	<carter>	And then run the program with various choices of profiling flags to get more info
14:25:39	<carter>	Handily enough, most profiling types are around what’s allocating data, what retaining data, and so forth
14:26:09	<carter>	Plus what type is being allocated etc
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14:26:47	<carter>	With text and bytestring slicing isn’t a copy, so there’s possibly the issue that you aren’t copying those. Or maybe you should!
14:27:09	<carter>	Or you’re writing code generic over the string like interface and you should commit to TEXT
14:27:26	<bwe>	carter: so which profiling flags do you recommend me to use? I've got the profiling to turn out the .prof file, already. But the results are not enlightening yet.
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14:27:36	<carter>	TRY ALL OD THEM
14:27:46	<bwe>	:)
14:28:00	<carter>	if you don’t know what’s happening, do each type, and read the what sortah info each does in the manual
14:28:10	<carter>	Also time profiling
14:28:26	<carter>	Dependent on the platform you can even use Linux perf or something
14:28:32	<carter>	Measure measure measure
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14:28:46	<carter>	Maybe start with time profiling
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14:53:09	<dmj`>	bwe: did you paste your code?
14:55:05	<bwe>	ok, the system ran out of memory (64 GB) with +RTS -p -pj params.
14:55:33	<bwe>	dmj`: No, I am just thinking which parts I could share.
14:55:54	<dmj`>	bwe: are you using strict or lazy bytestrings, or both
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14:58:55	<bwe>	dmj`: I am using req to save HTML files to disk. I write and read them as lazy ByteStrings. The remainder of the parser lib uses Text with Scalpel (that internally uses TagSoup which uses StringLike).
14:59:26	<dmj`>	bwe: how far do you get into that process before you get an OOM ?
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15:00:39	<dmj`>	bwe: how large is the html file on disk too
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15:02:53	<bwe>	HTML -> Dto -> ParsedEntity -- that's the process actually.
15:03:19	<bwe>	I do do a `scrapeStringLike (decodeUtf8 $ BL.toStrict bs) scraper` to realise the Dto.
15:03:31	<bwe>	dmj`: 800k on average
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15:08:27	<dmj`>	I was about to ask if you're using toStrict :)
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15:08:41	<bwe>	here's the profiling: https://uploadpie.com/jJipKZ
15:08:46	<dmj`>	bwe: that's going to force everything into the heap
15:09:16	<dmj`>	bwe: Data.Text.Lazy.Encoding
15:11:45	<bwe>	so, should I then turn any Text type into lazy Text through the scraping pipeline?
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15:13:46	<dmj`>	bwe: is 'bs' just a chunk here, or is it the entire file? Also, are you using concurrency to read all files from disk at the same time when you're doing this?
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15:15:48	<bwe>	dmj`: bs is the entire html file; no, I am doing a `mapM BL.readfile files`).
15:16:11	<bwe>	dmj`: I was thinking of cutting the html down before putting it into the parsing pipeline.
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15:16:42	<bwe>	dmj`: did you look into the profiling screenshot?
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15:45:18	<erty>	The inventor of unix-pipes Mcllroy have happened to use haskell
15:45:34	<erty>	https://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~doug/powser.html
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15:55:20	<danse-nr3>	he could not fail appreciating the composing power ;)
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16:55:25	<dmj`>	bwe: instead of "do { xs <- mapM BL.readFile files }", try doing -- "do { forM_ files $ \file -> do { bytes <- readFile file; processThing bytes } }"
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16:55:48	<dmj`>	bwe: the latter will ensure bytes gets GC'd before the next file is read
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17:21:57	<dmj`>	bwe: I assume you have two nested mapM calls, one to read all the files, and the other to process them all. This will guarantee that all bytes are read into memory before xs is discard, killing incremental processing, guaranteeing large heap growth
17:22:13	<dmj`>	since mapM is implemented in terms of foldr
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17:46:49	<EvanR>	you sometimes hear about lazy ML (LML), but it seems hard to find much info about it. There's an ftp site with some examples like executable semantics of lambda calculus
17:46:57	<EvanR>	but no compiler
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17:47:31	<Inst>	is it a bad thing
17:47:51	<Inst>	if all my attempts to use ReaderT end up with me refactoring to reuse StateT?
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17:48:40	<EvanR>	that's like changing your usage of "r" file open flags to "rw"
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17:48:54	<EvanR>	two different animals
17:49:54	<Inst>	I should just sober up instead and figure out what to do, I'm still playing around with Vty and this whole hexgrid experiment, written in 4 different styles
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17:50:53	<Inst>	https://github.com/haskript/big-book-of-small-haskell-projects/blob/master/35.HexGrid/HexGridVty.hs
17:51:07	<EvanR>	if you want to try more than 4 styles i could probably come up with a few more xD
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17:51:25	<EvanR>	evolution of a haskell GUI programmer
17:52:41	<Inst>	sure, why not
17:52:53	<Inst>	tbh I'd be happy if someone were to take control / be responsible for at least BBoSHP
17:53:10	<Inst>	I wouldn't mind if people were to toss random implementation of the originally python projects in there willy nilly, it'd be fun
17:53:12	<EvanR>	your usage of bare Reader could probably pretty easily just be 1 extra parameter of a bare function
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17:53:37	<Inst>	including Singletons based implementations of all of the original Py projects >:D
17:57:54	<EvanR>	what is BBoSHP
17:58:03	<Inst>	Big Book of Small Haskell Projects
17:59:45	<Inst>	but if I didn't use bare reader, how else would I get the opportunity to enjoy Gabriella Gonzalez's wonderful mmorph library?
18:00:50	<EvanR>	is it big book of getting things done or big book of using stuff because you can
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18:01:49	<EvanR>	so you want to make textmode board game, let me introduce you to some category theory xD
18:03:18	<EvanR>	in elixir they have barely any features beyond recursion and pattern matching, so they have the luxury of not wondering which combination of arcane abstractions to use for tasks
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18:04:13	<EvanR>	(they do have lisp-like metaprogramming, but I think it's discouraged for day to day tasks)
18:05:33	<cstml>	EvanR: ReaderT is useful when you want some static resources through the life of your App. If you need to change them, then they're probably not a Reader usecase. (also) Don't feel bad about using StateT
18:06:33	<EvanR>	Inst, ^
18:06:40	<dmj`>	unless you're using concurrency w/ StateT
18:07:08	<cstml>	If you really feel like it, stack a couple StateT's - break the "rules". You'll get a better sense of what works and what doesn't.
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18:07:18	<EvanR>	(and then, ReaderT over IO is kind of redundant since you can put IORefs in the resources)
18:07:30	<EvanR>	er StateT over IO
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18:07:43	<EvanR>	vs ReaderT IO with IORefs in the resources
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18:10:17	<cstml>	EvanR: I'd go down STM path + TVar having seen that ~ but maybe your usecase is better with IORefs.
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18:10:38	<EvanR>	dmj`, ^
18:11:55	<John_Ivan>	anyone else ever get a build by ghc that just "seems to run an endless loop"?
18:12:10	<dmj`>	John_Ivan: did you compile w/ -v
18:12:16	<John_Ivan>	nope.
18:12:33	<John_Ivan>	"cabal build" \| "cabal run"
18:12:35	<John_Ivan>	is what I did.
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18:12:55	<John_Ivan>	my program hangs. even though it compiled succesfully. and I don't see any code here that might run into an endless loop...
18:13:05	<John_Ivan>	I don't even have loops
18:13:25	<dmj`>	John_Ivan: can you paste your code, and just try `cabal run`, it should build if it needs to
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18:14:48	<c_wraith>	John_Ivan: are you compiling with -Wall? a good number of infinite loops are the result of accidental shadowing
18:15:03	<c_wraith>	and -Wall would tell you about shadowing
18:15:19	<John_Ivan>	main :: IO ()
18:15:19	<John_Ivan>	main = do
18:15:19	<John_Ivan>	let dirPath = "C:\\Ruby31-x64"
18:15:19	<John_Ivan>	setWorkingDirectory dirPath
18:15:19	<John_Ivan>	getWorkingDirectory >>= putStrLn
18:15:20	<John_Ivan>	files <- getFiles dirPath
18:15:22	<John_Ivan>	putStrLn $ show files
18:15:42	<John_Ivan>	that's all my code
18:15:55	<John_Ivan>	compiles and links. hangs when I run it. process being at 100% cpu
18:16:22	<Inst>	thanks cstml
18:16:31	<Inst>	EvanR: why not both?
18:16:57	<EvanR>	both what
18:17:01	<Inst>	that's Haskell for me, at least, you can be knuckle-dragging, you can be responsible, you can be astronauting
18:17:11	<Inst>	"big book of getting things done" vs "big book of just because you can"?
18:17:40	<exarkun>	John_Ivan: setWorkingDirectory and getWorkingDirectory and getFiles aren't in Prelude. Where are they from?
18:18:15	<EvanR>	because they are counterproductive to each other, so a book that unfocused is less useful
18:18:26	<dmj`>	John_Ivan: maybe getFiles is recursively looping over the same directory, causing an infinite loop
18:19:14	<c_wraith>	there's also the remote chance it's a hardware failure. I've had drives fail in ways that resulted in trying to access them causing 100% CPU use
18:19:30	<John_Ivan>	exarkun, they're just wrappers over getCurrentDirectory, setCurrentDirectory and getDirectoryContents from `directory` lib. nothing special.
18:19:37	<Inst>	it's not a book, though, more like feedstock
18:19:43	<Inst>	for potentially one
18:19:43	<exarkun>	John_Ivan: Details count, though. Let's see them.
18:19:53	<c_wraith>	John_Ivan: simple wrappers can have infinite loops in them
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18:20:32	<exarkun>	Or perhaps better yet, remove them from your pasted `main` and use the original functions instead and see if it still loops (and if so, share the new `main`)
18:20:33	<c_wraith>	John_Ivan: also, please use a pastebin. IRC isn't good for code. (it's not collapsable, and multi-line sends aren't atomic)
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18:21:07	<John_Ivan>	fair enough - https://i.imgur.com/ESd0BLS.png
18:21:18	<John_Ivan>	c_wraith, .. a bit late.
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18:23:14	<EvanR>	you could even implement that with setWorkingDirectory = setCurrentDirectory
18:23:22	<EvanR>	and getFiles = getDirectoryContents
18:24:01	<John_Ivan>	any idea why it hangs though?
18:24:02	<EvanR>	and because of the type on getWorkingDirectory, the liftIO doesn't do anything
18:24:04	<ski>	EvanR : hm, i think the HBC distribution may include LML. try <https://web.archive.org/web/20060902080757/http://haskell.org/hbc/hbc-2004-06-29.bin-i386-linux.tar.gz>,<https://web.archive.org/web/20060618025811/http://haskell.org/hbc/hbc-2004-06-29.src.tar.gz>,<https://archive.org/details/haskell-b-compiler> (also see
18:24:09	<ski>	<https://web.archive.org/web/20100526120524/http://www.cs.chalmers.se/pub/users/hallgren/Alfa/Haskell/>,<https://cth.altocumulus.org/~hallgren/software.html>,<https://web.archive.org/web/20060718204135/http://www.cs.chalmers.se/pub/users/hallgren/Alfa/Haskell/snapshot/2003-02-11>,<http://www.altocumulus.org/~hallgren/untested/Source_code/old>,..)
18:24:43	<EvanR>	John_Ivan, is it a stdio buffering issue, it just appears to hang?
18:25:31	<dmj`>	John_Ivan: try filtering out "." and ".." from getFiles
18:26:29	<dmj`>	ah, its not recursive, nvm
18:26:50	<ski>	.. too bad augustss/lennart doesn't hang out on IRC anymore
18:26:53	<EvanR>	John_Ivan, your code is loading all the files into a giant linked list, each element being it's own linked list (String = [Char]), and it must all be loaded before the IO action completes and you can start to print anything
18:27:36	<EvanR>	so it's a very large amount of list nodes
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18:27:39	<EvanR>	one for each char
18:27:57	<EvanR>	it shouldn't freeze, but it is consistent with 100% CPU
18:28:30	<EvanR>	ski, oh, that is worth a look
18:28:57	<John_Ivan>	I guess I'll just do more testing. thanks.
18:29:17	<John_Ivan>	I assumed it was something stupid I was doing that I couldn't see. guess there's more to it than that.
18:29:30	<dmj`>	ski: yea I wonder what he thinks about GRIN
18:29:45	<EvanR>	hrm... but you are only loading 1 directory, so it's not like it's trying to load your entire hard drive
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18:30:02	<John_Ivan>	EvanR, and there's barely anything in it. yeah.
18:30:05	<geekosaur>	yeh, I was thinking it'd need to be a really big directory for lists to matter
18:30:10	<John_Ivan>	not even recursively.
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18:30:26	<EvanR>	could be a windows issue!
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18:30:48	<John_Ivan>	it could very well be a windows issue indeed....
18:30:51	<exarkun>	What is "barely anything"? 3 files? 3000 files?
18:30:59	<John_Ivan>	exarkun, 4 files. 3 directories.
18:31:05	<cstml>	John_Ivan: try an empty directory. Does it still hang?
18:32:08	<John_Ivan>	cstml, just did now. yeah.
18:32:32	<John_Ivan>	let me add a bunch of print statements...
18:32:43	<geekosaur>	hm, I'd add some `traceIO`s in there to see where it's hanging
18:33:03	<cstml>	try and add error statements, and see where you get to.
18:33:18	<cstml>	or as geekosaur suggested.
18:33:36	<John_Ivan>	it hangs before even the first "let" even makes it's way.
18:33:37	<geekosaur>	come to think of it, setCurrentDirectory with a drive letter doesn't do what unixers expect; make sure you're running it from drive C
18:34:00	<John_Ivan>	what bothers me is that CTRL+C doesn't work in the console
18:34:02	<geekosaur>	(current dir is per drive on Windows)
18:34:06	<John_Ivan>	I have to kill the process myself.
18:34:07	<exarkun>	What does `main = pure ()` do?
18:34:14	<EvanR>	ctrl+z in cmd.exe right
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18:34:31	<geekosaur>	that doesn't surprise me; it's only responded to after an allocation, and if it's not looping on an allocation it will be ignored
18:34:33	<exarkun>	How are you running it?
18:34:36	<John_Ivan>	EvanR, CTRL+C in cmd.exe. it should do the same thing.
18:34:52	<exarkun>	Have you run any Haskell programs successfully in this environment?
18:35:02	<John_Ivan>	yup. the same program. with roughly the same code. about an hour ago.
18:35:11	<exarkun>	What changed? ;)
18:35:18	<EvanR>	the time
18:35:22	<EvanR>	at least xD
18:35:30	<John_Ivan>	me removing a mapM_ line
18:35:33	<John_Ivan>	which worked before.
18:35:42	<John_Ivan>	otherwise, nothing. probably the system/os/windows.
18:35:43	<exarkun>	Do you have the code from before? Maybe in vcs history? Can you run it again?
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18:35:51	<John_Ivan>	I'll try.
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18:36:52	<John_Ivan>	yeah. ok. I can confirm now. the same code which ran before, now doesn't work anymore. process hangs. so it sounds like an os issue.
18:37:12	<John_Ivan>	or just an "external" issue anyway.
18:37:22	<John_Ivan>	@exarkun,
18:37:22	<lambdabot>	Unknown command, try @list
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18:38:04	<John_Ivan>	Dr Dre - "Today was not a good day."
18:38:53	<John_Ivan>	sigh. Fuck this.
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18:39:39	<dmj`>	John_Ivan: are you on an NFS
18:39:50	<John_Ivan>	nope. local disk.
18:39:50	<EvanR>	stories of how for some reason the literal time of day would factor into windows bugs
18:40:16	<geekosaur>	hm, the only ones I recall of that were in excel
18:40:32	<dmj`>	John_Ivan: it doesn't print getWorkingDirectory >>= putStrLn ?
18:40:37	<John_Ivan>	I'll just move my code onto a linux vm
18:40:42	<John_Ivan>	dmj`, it "used to"
18:40:46	<John_Ivan>	I saw the result of the code
18:41:13	<dmj`>	are you using cygwin
18:41:26	<John_Ivan>	I'm not.
18:41:32	<dmj`>	I'd try it w/ cygwin
18:42:35	<John_Ivan>	dmj`, I'd be surprised if this just works if I reboot my machine. one moment. I'll do just that.
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18:50:11	<John_Ivan>	same issue. fuck it. in the linux vm it goes.
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18:51:02	<dmj`>	John_Ivan: try cygwin, I've had success using Haskell on Windows w/ iit
18:51:16	<John_Ivan>	dmj`, call cabal through cygwin?
18:51:29	<dmj`>	yea
18:51:40	<dmj`>	cabal run in there
18:52:17	<dmj`>	or I guess you could just use the WSL now
18:52:27	<John_Ivan>	dmj`, hangs there too.
18:52:37	<John_Ivan>	CTRL+C doesn't work here either. fuck.
18:53:18	<EvanR>	can you get haskell to print hello world
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18:53:43	<John_Ivan>	EvanR, no. it still hangs.
18:53:57	<EvanR>	maybe your haskell is just broken
18:54:01	<John_Ivan>	anyway I'm sick of this. I'll put it in a vm on linux. if it doesn't work there, i'm just cursed.
18:56:18	<dmj`>	John_Ivan: do we know if the problem is the compilation hanging, or actual program execution? Did -v show cabal had completed linking?
18:56:51	<John_Ivan>	dmj`, yes. the compilation and linking succeeds. execution hangs.
18:58:28	<dmj`>	even a simple hello world hangs?
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18:58:40	<John_Ivan>	yes.
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19:03:25	→	Guest\|22 joins (~Guest\|22@161.130.189.254)
19:04:12	<Guest\|22>	I am on macOS Sonoma 14.0 and finished installing the curl command on my terminal
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19:04:56	<Guest\|22>	after completing all downloads, I tried run command ghc --version or ghci on my command line then it says command not found
19:05:24	<xerox>	how did you install ghc?
19:06:24	<Guest\|22>	nevermind me. I fixed my problem by restarting my terminal.
19:06:44	<xerox>	wonderful :)
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19:09:44	<EvanR>	you probably had the old environment variables like PATH still set
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19:10:11	<EvanR>	oh they ragequit already
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19:16:29	<probie>	I don't think they rage quit per se, they simply had their problem fixed
19:17:23	<tomsmeding>	they glee quit
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19:21:07	<bwe>	dmj`: https://uploadpie.com/3XBLsy
19:22:49	<sm[i]>	John_Ivan: that's a good one. Have you isolated which line is hanging ? Eg which line lets it run when removed ?
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19:39:36	<Inst>	okay... evanr: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Ah4y1D7Mf/?spm_id_from=333.999.0.0
19:39:46	<Inst>	bleh, I got e-mailed back from her, but I think I blew it because I didn't watch enough of her vids
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19:56:50	<phma>	I've been working on a program where one function uses "par s01 $ par s23 $ par s02 $ par s13 $ par s03 $ par s12 $" and computes them in parallel,
19:57:24	<phma>	whereas another uses the exact same construction, but computes them sequentially, taking much longer. Can someone look at it?
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19:59:37	<phma>	I've looked at it in Threadscope and used Okteta to search the eventlog for events.
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20:01:19	<EvanR>	Inst, what
20:01:26	<Inst>	forget it
20:02:11	<EvanR>	my mandarin is a bit rusty, is there anything interesting being said
20:02:15	<int-e>	phma: I guess the stupid thing to rule out is... are both using the threaded RTS?
20:02:29	<Inst>	nothing, it's more that it's amazing that she's actually doing it, i screwed up because i asked her whether she was real
20:02:44	<Inst>	but it's not really a relevant discussion
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20:02:55	<EvanR>	I wonder if one of those holographic girlfriends would be better or worse at category theory
20:02:57	→	sm2n joins (ae95cb1267@user/sm2n)
20:03:33	<monochrom>	I don't know, I could be asking whether you are real, too. :)
20:03:34	<phma>	int-e: yes, and the program is calling both in the same run
20:03:50	<int-e>	. o O ( There are two categories of people, those who don't understand category theory, and those that do. )
20:04:04	<monochrom>	IRC is not exactly realer than random websites.
20:04:48	<monochrom>	And there are two categories of category theorists, those who work with n-categories and those who don't. >:)
20:04:51	<int-e>	phma: anyway, the usual thing applies... people are unlikely to commit up front, but if you have code to show people might look at it and tell you what they find.
20:05:04	<int-e>	always a shot into the dark
20:05:32	<phma>	https://github.com/phma/wring-twistree
20:05:58	<phma>	command line: stack run -- -c relkey +RTS -ls
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20:10:55	<hc>	Na ja, the original joke was that 10 could be read as ten (by those who don't understand binary) or as 2 (by those who do)
20:11:08	<hc>	Either I don't get the category theory adaption or it's just not funny, -v please
20:12:04	<EvanR>	there's a 2-category of people who don't understand category theory
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20:12:41	<monochrom>	I'm just going to change subject.
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20:12:47	<EvanR>	probably the second one hc
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20:13:02	<monochrom>	How do you visualize 6 dimensions? Answer: Visualize n dimensions then let n=6.
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20:14:17	<EvanR>	how do you visualize infinite dimensions. Visualize an ordinal number of dimensions and let n = omega
20:14:25	<monochrom>	Actually that's how I understood a particular hybrid discrete-continuous and highly dependent probabiliy distribution.
20:14:28	<geekosaur>	I use a zipper xD
20:14:57	<monochrom>	I understood measure theory and the Giry monad in general, then let mu be that particular distribution. :)
20:15:41	<monochrom>	This is the talk I gave after figuring it out: https://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~trebla/cpm.pdf
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20:26:09	<EvanR>	does/can probability of probability represent conditional probability
20:26:33	<monochrom>	No. But conditional probability is easy.
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20:27:49	<monochrom>	"randomly pick a parameter for binomial" is where you have probability of probabilities.
20:27:49	<EvanR>	P (a ∩ b) / P b
20:27:58	<EvanR>	you just need intersection types!
20:28:03	<monochrom>	:(
20:28:23	<int-e>	phma: you should change the base lowerbound to base >= 4.17 constraint to that code; the .>>. bit rotation operations aren't available in earlier versions
20:29:52	<monochrom>	Later when I have time, I will look into something like ContT ? Giry to absorb conditional probability.
20:31:09	<monochrom>	But it probably won't make anything easier.
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20:33:28	<EvanR>	P X is like a random variable yielding an X ?
20:34:19	<EvanR>	I should just take the tardis and attend that talk
20:34:24	<monochrom>	I decided to demote the whole notion of "random variable".
20:34:48	<phma>	int-e: done, didn't affect the parallelism
20:35:55	<monochrom>	Instead, P is either a monad from package random, or the Giry monad. In the latter case, P X is the set of all probability distributions over X.
20:35:56	<int-e>	phma: of course not, this comment was a result of me wasting a bunch of time building all the dependencies with ghc-9.2.7
20:36:21	<int-e>	phma: only to find out in the end that your code doesn't compile with that ghc version
20:37:08	<phma>	I'm running 9.4.5 in stack
20:37:28	<geekosaur>	you need to document that in the cabal file so people don't try to use older versions and fail
20:38:08	<int-e>	phma: Anyway, all those three calls show parallelism to me here... but the 6 "jobs" aren't the same cost, so CPU usage drops from close to 600% to about 100% as they finish one after another.
20:38:20	<geekosaur>	you waste the time of people trying to help you if your bounds are wrong
20:39:23	<int-e>	hmmm
20:39:51	<int-e>	sorry, ignore that, I'm not on the right branch here
20:41:35	<phma>	The marker with -con- in the middle is placed at the start of the computation; it looks like it starts each when the previous one finishes.
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20:42:58	<phma>	The ones with -diff- in the middle are placed nearly simultaneously, then activity goes up to 4ish and stays high until they all finish about the same time.
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20:44:20	<int-e>	> (undefined, undefined) `seq` 42
20:44:22	<lambdabot>	42
20:44:26	<phma>	The ones placed by traceMarkerIO show up as vertical lines in Threadscope; the ones placed by traceEvent show up only in the event log, and I had to use Okteta to find them.
20:45:21	<int-e>	phma: It's because of the different result type. Forcing a pair constructor doesn't force the values it holds, so your `par` essentially don't do anything.
20:45:33	<phma>	Ah!
20:46:46	<phma>	If I did "par (fst s01)" would it work?
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20:48:26	<int-e>	It would. Or a strict pair type instead of (Double,Double), or something like deepseq. (There's `rnf`, which package is that again?)
20:49:23	<phma>	Okay. I'll try par fst tonight; I have to go out and pick up a print job.
20:50:03	<int-e>	Oh, that is deepseq. With `rnf` you can do rnf s01 `par` rnf s02 `par` ...
20:50:13	<int-e>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/deepseq-1.4.8.1/docs/Control-DeepSeq.html#v:rnf
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20:51:35	<int-e>	(I prefer writing `par` as an infix operator. It even has a convenient fixity, infixr 0 `seq`.)
20:51:53	<int-e>	(which is the same as $)
20:52:30	<int-e>	sorry, `seq` was supposed to be `par`. `seq` also has the same fixity.
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21:54:06	<EvanR>	>par is generally used when the value of a is likely to be required later, but not immediately.
21:55:10	<EvanR>	it makes me think par might be beneficial to use in "normal code" in judicious places, rather than / in addition to programs that are intentionally trying to do a big parallel computation as parallel as possible
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21:57:53	<EvanR>	or in the former case it might at least less likely you make it worse by trying to make it parallel
21:58:01	<EvanR>	be
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22:00:36	<EvanR>	par x y = case (par# x) of { _ -> lazy y }, hmm where is this function lazy coming from
22:01:12	<c_wraith>	EvanR: are you familiar with https://hackage.haskell.org/package/speculation ?
22:01:43	<c_wraith>	EvanR: in other news, https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.0.0/docs/GHC-Exts.html#v:lazy (it's very much a GHC internal)
22:04:30	<EvanR>	not familiar no
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22:11:22	<EvanR>	spec :: Eq a => a -> (a -> b) -> a -> b, spec x f y evaluates to f x if x==y else f y. So kind of like memoization, but instead of remembering, you perform a speculative computation in parallel, which might be what you wanted by the time y is available
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22:16:04	<monochrom>	"lazy" is a pretended function to tell GHC to increase laziness.
22:16:42	<monochrom>	You can find it in some GHC.* module, but clearly, the real code is baked into the compiler not the library.
22:16:50	<EvanR>	the source is not found so I guess it's like lazy# or something
22:16:59	<EvanR>	lazy# _
22:16:59	<monochrom>	Or rather, there is no real code, it's a annotation.
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22:18:47	<monochrom>	It's times like this (and the RealWord# -> ... thing) that I wonder whether "use the source Luke" is harmful advice or people do not actually take it to its logical conclusion.
22:19:23	<monochrom>	Because the middle ground of using the library source code, but not one step further to also use the compiler source code, is the worst of both worlds.
22:19:34	<geekosaur>	actually the whole versioned package is missing on Hackage
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22:20:15	<monochrom>	Ugh pun opportunity on "world" haha.
22:20:28	<geekosaur>	https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-prim-0.11.0/docs/src/GHC.Magic.html#lazy
22:20:51	<geekosaur>	see the comment after its definition; the real magic is inside of ghc
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22:31:18	<zero>	source: was once beginner
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