Logs on 2023-11-18 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 07:44:45 | mrmr15533 | is now known as mrmr1553 |
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| 12:50:32 | <haskellbridge> | 08<tewuzij> What are tuple types? |
| 12:55:51 | <ncf> | (A, B) |
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| 12:59:36 | <mauke> | nameless ad-hoc records |
| 13:00:36 | <probie> | Are they nameless, or is that the names are natural numbers? |
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| 13:12:40 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> How does one work with Aeson to parse either one of two possible JSONs? |
| 13:12:41 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> Specifically I expected |
| 13:12:42 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> ``` |
| 13:12:43 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> ghci> data Test = A {a :: String} | B {b :: Int} deriving Show; $(deriveJSON defaultOptions ''Test) |
| 13:12:44 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> ghci> decode "{\"a\": \"abc\"}" :: Maybe Test |
| 13:12:46 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> Nothing |
| 13:12:47 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> ``` |
| 13:12:48 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> to work, but I'm not sure where to find the relevant docs |
| 13:19:07 | <ncf> | Celestial: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/aeson-2.2.1.0/docs/Data-Aeson.html#t:SumEncoding |
| 13:21:03 | <ncf> | with the default options you'd need something like {"tag": "A", "contents": {"a": "abc"}} |
| 13:22:37 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> How would I change the options to do that based on the parameter names if possible? |
| 13:22:48 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> I'm not sure how to work with the "Untagged" constructor there |
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| 13:30:32 | <ncf> | defaultOptions { sumEncoding = UntaggedValue } |
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| 13:57:23 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> oh amazing, thank you |
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| 14:16:58 | <Inst> | hmmm |
| 14:17:00 | <Inst> | here's a question |
| 14:17:14 | <Inst> | if IntMap outperforms both HashMap and (normal) Maps |
| 14:17:28 | <Inst> | shouldn't there be an Enum key => IntMap key value interface? |
| 14:19:55 | <haskellbridge> | 14<mauke> Last time I did advent of code, Map was faster |
| 14:21:52 | <int-e> | > map fromEnum [0.0, 0.1] |
| 14:21:54 | <lambdabot> | [0,0] |
| 14:22:45 | <int-e> | (Enum has a number of questionable instances if you expect toEnum . fromEnum == id) |
| 14:25:07 | <Inst> | ah :( |
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| 14:28:45 | <Inst> | so there's an Double a => Enum a instance where fromEnum = floor and toEnum = fromIntegral |
| 14:28:49 | <Inst> | erm |
| 14:29:01 | <Inst> | Actually, I don't think you can Floating a => Enum a, right? |
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| 15:33:30 | <haskellbridge> | 14<mauke> Isn't Floating for stuff like exp and sqrt? That would include complex numbers and more exotic things |
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| 15:44:25 | <Inst> | RealFrac is linked to floor, and it looks like the instances for Enum etc are manually placed |
| 15:45:34 | <Inst> | or rather floor is implemented by RealFrac |
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| 16:36:01 | <erty> | I've just opened a text file in ReadWriteMode without storing the handle and now I am locked out of the file (file is locked). Guess have to restart ghci. |
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| 16:36:59 | <Rembane> | erty: What's in the it variable? |
| 16:38:47 | <erty> | Rembane: It was a mistake, i did `λ> openFile "haskell.hs" ReadWriteMode` instead of `λ> file <- openFile "haskell.hs" ReadWriteMode |
| 16:39:32 | <geekosaur> | still, ghci binds to `it` automatically unless you start it with `-fno-it` |
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| 16:39:41 | <geekosaur> | so you could still access the handle that way |
| 16:39:59 | <geekosaur> | or `closeFile it` |
| 16:40:59 | <erty> | I did not knew about `it` variable BUT NOW I KNOW. thanks for telling me :-) |
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| 16:43:46 | <erty> | geekosaur: I have to use `hClose it` to close the file. For `closeFile`, ghci says variable not found. I did `:m +System.IO` |
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| 16:44:04 | <geekosaur> | yeh, I thinkoed sorry |
| 16:44:12 | <erty> | :-) |
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| 17:40:06 | <Maxlelyonai> | hello |
| 17:40:09 | <Maxlelyonai> | I have a small problem |
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| 17:43:18 | <Hecate> | Rembane: hey did you listen to the latest episode of the Haskell Interlude? |
| 17:43:23 | <Hecate> | Maxlelyonai: sure, tell us |
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| 17:50:34 | <geekosaur> | … |
| 17:51:05 | Clint | nods. |
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| 18:03:01 | <Rembane> | Hecate: Yes! John McFarlane? Markdown? Pandoc? |
| 18:03:17 | <benmachine> | @pl \x -> f x |
| 18:03:17 | <lambdabot> | f |
| 18:04:34 | <Rembane> | @botsnack |
| 18:04:34 | <lambdabot> | :) |
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| 18:07:05 | <benmachine> | I'm curious if people use @pl a lot / at all, I started work on a version of it that operates on ASTs but in deciding whether to work on it more I have to confront the fact that I don't use it and don't know who I'd recommend it to |
| 18:08:54 | <geekosaur> | not really, it sometimes produces useful things but it usually just makes a mess |
| 18:08:59 | <benmachine> | https://github.com/bmillwood/pointfree-hse for those among you who are curious |
| 18:09:02 | <geekosaur> | and it doesn't know about Applicative |
| 18:09:08 | <int-e> | pointless code full of dots |
| 18:09:20 | <geekosaur> | dotty and flipped out 🙂 |
| 18:09:38 | <monochrom> | I have become better than @pl, so I don't need it any more. |
| 18:09:51 | <benmachine> | also @pl as-is is really a pointfree algorithm glued onto a general expression optimizer, which is a bit odd |
| 18:09:58 | <benmachine> | @pl 2 + 2 |
| 18:09:58 | <lambdabot> | 4 |
| 18:10:12 | <int-e> | @pl \a b c d -> a (b (c d)) |
| 18:10:12 | <lambdabot> | (. (.)) . (.) . (.) |
| 18:10:30 | <monochrom> | And also one @pl doesn't fit all sizes. There are still many design choices for many different use cases and audiences. |
| 18:11:30 | <int-e> | it's called "pointless" rather than "pointfree" for a reason :) |
| 18:11:31 | <benmachine> | I feel like my advice for most people would be that if you need a tool to work out the pointfree form you probably should stick to the pointful one |
| 18:11:43 | <benmachine> | int-e: fair |
| 18:12:08 | <int-e> | there are very rare cases where it actually produces something pretty but non-obvious. |
| 18:12:14 | <int-e> | @pl \f x -> f x x |
| 18:12:14 | <lambdabot> | join |
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| 18:12:57 | <benmachine> | I wonder if it has pedagogic value or something, but even for that I'm not sure why it matters |
| 18:13:29 | <monochrom> | It has pedagogical values. (Until it doesn't.) |
| 18:13:30 | <int-e> | (I find that instructive, even if you don't use it. Basically @pl is a tool for learning about the bare reader monad (r ->).) |
| 18:13:30 | <EvanR> | I've been limiting my point free to stuff of the form e1 . e2 . e3 . e4 where each e is a straight application chain |
| 18:13:47 | <EvanR> | no one can argue with that! |
| 18:13:52 | <monochrom> | One should learn all possibilities. Then one chooses when to use which. |
| 18:14:07 | <int-e> | EvanR: those are tree excellent points |
| 18:14:09 | <benmachine> | monochrom: learning all possibilities may not take finite time |
| 18:14:21 | <monochrom> | On top of that, it opens your mind to new ways of thinking. |
| 18:14:22 | <int-e> | @quote dots |
| 18:14:22 | <lambdabot> | No quotes match. Just what do you think you're doing Dave? |
| 18:14:48 | <int-e> | EvanR: *three, not tree |
| 18:14:58 | <EvanR> | and I hesitate to stick a flip on the front of the application chain |
| 18:15:23 | <EvanR> | I don't want to be called before the haskell-is-ivory-tower-elitist-nonsense tribunal |
| 18:15:24 | <int-e> | @pl \a b c d -> d c b a |
| 18:15:25 | <lambdabot> | flip (flip . (flip .) . flip (flip . flip id)) |
| 18:15:30 | <int-e> | <3 |
| 18:15:41 | <monochrom> | For example, \x -> f x (g x) = f <*> g is actually non-obvious and enlightening. This learns you the Reader functor or the hom functor. |
| 18:16:09 | <geekosaur> | or would if @pl knew about <*> |
| 18:16:14 | <EvanR> | it's unfortunate that <*> chains risks you getting called before the tribunal :( |
| 18:16:23 | <int-e> | @pl \x -> f x (g x) |
| 18:16:24 | <lambdabot> | ap f g |
| 18:16:26 | int-e | shrugs |
| 18:16:34 | <int-e> | it just uses the other name :-P |
| 18:16:54 | <EvanR> | f `ap` g `ap` h |
| 18:16:57 | <int-e> | (yes I know that `ap` is restricted to Monad) |
| 18:17:04 | <monochrom> | Civilization advances because some people are brave enough to find and use unfamiliar, "unnatural", "unintuitive" things, despite social pressure on conformance. |
| 18:17:19 | <EvanR> | pronounced fap-gaf |
| 18:17:26 | <geekosaur> | and then people bitch about "kids these days" |
| 18:17:46 | <int-e> | kids these days, always complaining about kids these days |
| 18:18:15 | ← | erty parts (~user@user/aeroplane) (ERC 5.4 (IRC client for GNU Emacs 28.2)) |
| 18:18:34 | <geekosaur> | re the tribunal, if I wanted to write Python I'd write Python |
| 18:18:45 | <geekosaur> | I graduated from Playskool in the 80s, tyvm |
| 18:18:51 | <monochrom> | Did you know that large banks in Singapore disallow recursion "because we are hiring grads from 3rd rate colleges who don't understand it"? That is how you stagnate civilization. |
| 18:18:55 | <Hecate> | Rembane: yes that one :) Quite nice, wasn't it? |
| 18:19:21 | <EvanR> | I learned recursion in a 3rd rate college |
| 18:19:28 | <monochrom> | "pointfree is obscurity don't use it" "recursion is obscurity don't use it". What's next, anything except COBOL is obscurity don't use it? |
| 18:19:55 | <monochrom> | Obscurity is an inverse function of your education. |
| 18:20:18 | <int-e> | recursion can't be implemented by patching the target address of the branch instruction in the function epilog, don't use it |
| 18:20:18 | <monochrom> | Just 400 years ago, even multiplication was obscurity. |
| 18:20:26 | <benmachine> | monochrom: not every slope is slippery |
| 18:20:28 | <int-e> | stacks are so expensive |
| 18:20:31 | <monochrom> | Just 1000 years ago, even literacy itself was obscurity. |
| 18:20:41 | <benmachine> | "making things better? what's next, making them worse?" :P |
| 18:20:55 | <int-e> | I wonder whether people resented punched cards. :) |
| 18:24:25 | <monochrom> | OK, you know what, here is another angle I wrote a long time ago. https://www.vex.net/~trebla/weblog/pointfree.html |
| 18:24:32 | <Rembane> | Hecate: It was indeed! Very concrete and like: "this is how I have been using Haskell to build something useful for the last 16 years." |
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| 18:26:09 | <monochrom> | There is also John Hughes's paper "why functional programming matters". Later, there is even a youtube video. |
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| 18:27:25 | <monochrom> | That represents the minimal level of pointfree-ness one must embrace. It is really worth it. I can agree that beyond that level it is less clear and it depends. |
| 18:29:31 | <Hecate> | Rembane: yes, and how lovely is it to see a professor of philosophy use Haskell?? |
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| 18:31:50 | <Rembane> | Hecate: That's so cool! |
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| 18:50:43 | <Hecate> | Rembane: indeed! |
| 18:51:37 | <benmachine> | @pl \x -> x + f x |
| 18:51:37 | <lambdabot> | ap (+) f |
| 18:52:20 | <Rembane> | :t ap (+) |
| 18:52:21 | <lambdabot> | Num a => (a -> a) -> a -> a |
| 18:53:12 | <benmachine> | @pl \x -> g x + f x |
| 18:53:13 | <lambdabot> | liftM2 (+) g f |
| 18:54:11 | <benmachine> | @pl \x -> g x + x |
| 18:54:12 | <lambdabot> | (+) =<< g |
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| 18:55:15 | <EvanR> | pl should not only know about Applicative but also everything in the aviary of combinators? xD |
| 18:55:52 | <ncf> | it should also have a ring solver why not |
| 18:56:16 | <ncf> | it's basically a category solver anyway |
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| 18:57:04 | <ncf> | @pl (f . g . id) . (id . h) |
| 18:57:04 | <lambdabot> | f . g . h |
| 18:57:22 | <Rembane> | EvanR: I think it should only know about birds, and express everything in terms of birds. |
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| 18:58:51 | <EvanR> | works in any category |
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| 20:38:30 | <benmachine> | int-e: inspired by your examples, https://github.com/bmillwood/pointfree-hse/tree/main/test/output (each one is approximately unlines . pointfreeSteps from my library) |
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| 20:39:44 | <benmachine> | though getting the step-by-step output doesn't help the flips example much tbh |
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