Logs on 2023-11-21 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:57:58 | <Axman6> | I've actually had discussons with the dtrace devs before... I should learn more about dtrace |
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| 01:30:54 | <m257> | duncan: Who needs girls when you have Haskell? |
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| 15:37:42 | ChanServ | sets mode +v haskellbridge |
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| 15:51:07 | <Square2> | Iirc on can only debug one file at a time in ghci?! If so, are there ways to do full program debugging? |
| 15:51:14 | <Square2> | one can* |
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| 15:52:51 | <danse-nr3> | oh really? That's surprising |
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| 15:54:52 | <Square2> | I mean, I could be wrong. Just have some vague memories from a debug session 3-4 years ago. |
| 15:55:10 | <L29Ah> | > breakpoints and single-stepping are only available in interpreted modules; compiled code is invisible to the debugger |
| 15:55:12 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:52: error: parse error on input ‘in’ |
| 15:55:32 | <Square2> | L29Ah, ah thanks. |
| 15:56:04 | <Square2> | Can you interpret a whole program? |
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| 15:56:55 | <L29Ah> | i think you do when you :l the main module |
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| 15:57:36 | <L29Ah> | at least then ghc interprets everything it doesn't find compiled in installed packages afaik |
| 15:57:54 | <Square2> | okok. Sounds promising then. |
| 15:57:57 | <danse-nr3> | why ghci rather than gdb? |
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| 16:00:40 | <Square2> | danse-nr3, have you tried it with Haskell? If so, was it good enough? |
| 16:01:58 | <geekosaur> | re interpreting a whole program, `:main` in ghci or `runghc` |
| 16:02:17 | <danse-nr3> | nope i have not tried it, but it seems to be the go-to solution from the docs https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/debug-info.html |
| 16:03:02 | <geekosaur> | gdb still doesn't work that well because it needs a patch to understand ghc's debug information |
| 16:03:13 | <geekosaur> | there's a short remark about it there |
| 16:03:24 | <danse-nr3> | oh i see |
| 16:03:27 | <geekosaur> | (unless you're debugging an FFI call) |
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| 17:03:39 | <carbolymer> | @pl \x -> "txins" <> show x |
| 17:03:39 | <lambdabot> | ("txins" <>) . show |
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| 17:47:52 | <erty> | For some reason, the $HOME env variable is replaced in first command but not in the second one |
| 17:48:00 | <erty> | λ> (_,b,_,_) <- createProcess $ proc "echo" ["home dir is","$HOME"] |
| 17:48:00 | <erty> | λ> (_,b,_,_) <- createProcess $ shell "echo home dir $HOME" |
| 17:48:20 | <erty> | `:m +System.Process` |
| 17:48:59 | <erty> | *sorry works in later but not in former |
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| 17:51:32 | <geekosaur> | yes, it's handled by the shell |
| 17:51:49 | <geekosaur> | so if you use `proc` the shell is not involved and environment variables will not be expanded |
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| 17:55:14 | <erty> | geekosaur: thank you for the answer |
| 17:56:21 | <erty> | I was not able figure this out by reading the docs |
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| 17:56:46 | <geekosaur> | right, it's less a Haskell thing than a Unix thing |
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| 17:58:32 | <erty> | geekosaur: I don't understand, how the shell is not involved for `proc`. I ran `proc "env"` and it showed /bin/bash as the shell |
| 17:59:27 | <erty> | I am sorry If I am asking something very basic |
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| 17:59:44 | <erty> | :-| |
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| 18:00:37 | <geekosaur> | if you specify `proc` then it calls C's `execvp()`. if you specify `shell` then it calls `/bin/sh -c "your command line"` |
| 18:00:41 | <exarkun> | erty: env doesn't know what the shell is |
| 18:00:46 | <exarkun> | erty: env only knows what the environment is |
| 18:01:09 | <geekosaur> | /bin/sh does the environment expansion |
| 18:01:11 | <exarkun> | ❯ SHELL="flying monkeys" env | grep SHELL= |
| 18:01:13 | <exarkun> | SHELL=flying monkeys |
| 18:02:26 | <exarkun> | erty: The shell is the program that reads in commands you type and decides what they mean and then does something about it (like running a loop in process, or launching a new child process). |
| 18:02:41 | <exarkun> | It is generally good at running child processes but it isn't /necessary/ to do so |
| 18:03:36 | <geekosaur> | you generally use `proc` when you want to prevent the shell from expanding special characters like `$` |
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| 18:05:45 | <exarkun> | And (imo) often you should want that. Haskell (and most languages) are easily capable of controlling most aspects of process creation, so the shell is mostly extra complexity. |
| 18:05:52 | <geekosaur> | anyway this is all Unix/Linux basics; in particular `execvp()` and friends |
| 18:06:02 | <erty> | ... |
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| 18:11:19 | <erty> | geekosaur: thanks for clarifactions and yes I will work on my basics |
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| 18:16:18 | <sshine> | erty, when you run programs through a shell rather than directly, you generally risk shell injection for user input. even with a lot of focus on sanitation, shells are complex and often unnecessary for running programs. |
| 18:17:46 | <sshine> | erty, it's like having a big, unrestricted eval() around all the input :) |
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| 18:24:13 | <erty> | exarkun: I appreciate those details, and I also agree (interms of Haskell) that it can handle process creation. As when I ran some command and it failed, the output was `Just (ExitFailure 127)` which makes things so much easier. |
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| 18:25:24 | <erty> | sshine: I will keep that in my notes :-) |
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| 18:36:41 | <haskellbridge> | 14<mauke> Perhaps not obvious: the shell is what handles (expands) $vars, I/O redirection with > and friends, as well as wildcards like * and ? |
| 18:37:41 | <haskellbridge> | 14<mauke> Programs only see a list of strings ("command line arguments") |
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| 18:38:14 | <geekosaur> | also word splitting, which is a large part of what makes it potentially dangerous: `proc` ensures the parameters are exactly as you specified them |
| 18:38:19 | <haskellbridge> | 14<mauke> Well, and another list of strings ("environment variables") |
| 18:40:37 | <haskellbridge> | 14<mauke> program :: ([ByteString], [ByteString]) -> IO Word8 |
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| 18:49:10 | <monochrom> | It's telephone games all the way down. |
| 18:54:28 | <sshine> | erty, yeah, stuff like `ls *.txt`, the `*` (glob expansion) is a shell feature. there's a rabbit hole of gotchas with this kind of stuff, best avoid it if you're dealing with any user input, and generally avoid shell scripting in the middle of your program, unless your program is a shell script, in which case you asked for it. :-D |
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| 18:57:27 | <sshine> | erty, there are some Haskell libraries that try to provide a better interface to shell scripting: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/turtle is probably the most popular one... I also see one library called 'handsy' and one called 'shh', but I haven't tried htem. |
| 18:58:33 | <sshine> | erty, I think it's a good attempt, because Unix pipes are also lazy. |
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| 19:02:51 | <geekosaur> | one that people often miss is that `~` is also expanded by the shell |
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| 19:12:53 | <juri_> | sshine: lazy, but in blocks. |
| 19:12:59 | <erty> | sshine: Thank you for proving those links, But I have a question, should I be wary of using createProcess command if it takes input from user? |
| 19:13:23 | <erty> | should I not be doing that |
| 19:13:39 | <EvanR> | is the user The User or some random input from the internet xD |
| 19:13:53 | <geekosaur> | `createProcess` is fine with `proc`, `shell` is not |
| 19:14:06 | <geekosaur> | that's why both are provided |
| 19:14:11 | <erty> | EvanR: eg ssh connection to remote or maybe to ghc process taling |
| 19:14:14 | <erty> | *talking |
| 19:14:39 | <erty> | geekosaur: ok I will pefer proc then :-) |
| 19:19:52 | <geekosaur> | so for example xmonad uses `shell` because the input comes from the person writing their config and they usually want normal shell commands (and it's exactly as dangerous as running them directly in the shell) |
| 19:20:32 | <geekosaur> | but we also have `safeSpawn` which wraps `proc` for when the input is untrusted for some reason (e.g. it came from `Prompt`) |
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| 19:25:38 | <erty> | geekosaur: yeah I believe as long as we are avoiding the bad actors, we should be fine |
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| 19:37:31 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> I like Shake's shell api https://hackage.haskell.org/package/shake-0.19.7/docs/Development-Shake-Command.html |
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| 19:42:42 | <sshine> | fixing a critical bug in untyped code on a time constraint is like walking through a minefield being asked to only pick up the purple mines. |
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| 19:44:29 | <sshine> | geekosaur, XMonad as a Service = XMaaS :-D |
| 19:46:20 | <sshine> | or if you just want randomly changing background pictures: XMonad Art as a Service Substitute = XMArtaaSS |
| 19:46:37 | <sshine> | s/Service/Software/ |
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| 19:53:01 | <cheater> | so what's the current accepted way to set package constraints for a cabal project? |
| 19:53:07 | <cheater> | just in the .cabal? |
| 19:53:11 | <cheater> | something in a project file? |
| 19:53:19 | <cheater> | all this new fangled stuff is making me dizzy |
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| 19:59:45 | <geekosaur> | cabal file. project file is for when you need to bend them for some reason (e.g. building under a new compiler) |
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| 20:05:00 | <haskellbridge> | 04<zwro> what about local packages? |
| 20:07:44 | <geekosaur> | still specified in the cabal file |
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| 20:11:44 | <haskellbridge> | 04<zwro> i used to do something like local-modules-dir: in the cabal file but i don't remember why i changed to putting the path to each package in the project file |
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| 20:12:16 | <haskellbridge> | 04<zwro> (i don't remember what was the exact .cabal field) |
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| 20:39:06 | <cheater> | ok |
| 20:39:08 | <cheater> | thanks |
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| 20:48:59 | <tomsmeding> | zwro: you aren't just referring to 'packages:'? |
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| 21:48:04 | <haskellbridge> | 04<zwro> i'm not sure. maybe i'm wrong |
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| 23:42:38 | <zzz> | it saddens me that one of these is a conflicting definition error and the other isn't |
| 23:43:34 | <zzz> | https://paste.jrvieira.com/1700610208728 |
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| 23:46:43 | <EvanR> | uh what is 1 <- x doing in that guard |
| 23:47:01 | <c_wraith> | It's true. You can't have multiple patterns without an argument to pattern match on |
| 23:47:07 | <c_wraith> | EvanR: it's a pattern guard |
| 23:47:15 | <EvanR> | pattern guards, damn |
| 23:47:16 | <c_wraith> | EvanR: just treat it as x == 1 |
| 23:48:03 | <c_wraith> | err. I should say you can't have multiple equations without an argument to pattern match on. |
| 23:48:13 | <c_wraith> | Multiple equations are a property of function definitions |
| 23:48:21 | <c_wraith> | *syntactic* function definitions |
| 23:48:34 | <EvanR> | > let go = 1; go = 2 in go |
| 23:48:35 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 23:48:35 | <lambdabot> | Conflicting definitions for ‘go’ |
| 23:48:35 | <lambdabot> | Bound at: <interactive>:1:5-6 |
| 23:48:42 | <c_wraith> | While guards are allowed on any definition |
| 23:48:45 | <EvanR> | > let go _ = 1; go _ = 2 in go |
| 23:48:47 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 23:48:47 | <lambdabot> | • No instance for (Typeable p0) |
| 23:48:47 | <lambdabot> | arising from a use of ‘show_M83401704667412676088’ |
| 23:48:50 | <EvanR> | frag |
| 23:49:20 | <EvanR> | > let go _ = 1; go _ = 2 in go () |
| 23:49:21 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 23:49:34 | <c_wraith> | It is a bit of an inconsistency in Haskell's syntax. |
| 23:49:42 | <c_wraith> | But it's a pretty minor one, all told |
| 23:50:45 | <EvanR> | > let [go,_] = [1,2]; [go,_] = [2,1] in go |
| 23:50:46 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 23:50:46 | <lambdabot> | Conflicting definitions for ‘go’ |
| 23:50:46 | <lambdabot> | Bound at: <interactive>:1:6-7 |
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| 23:52:35 | <ski> | > let go | False = True | True = False in go |
| 23:52:36 | <lambdabot> | False |
| 23:53:05 | <monochrom> | In this case, "| otherwise = 0" exists. |
| 23:53:06 | <ski> | pattern equations vs. function equations |
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| 23:53:58 | ski | has ideas for how to generalize |
| 23:54:19 | <EvanR> | > let [go,_] x = x + 1 |
| 23:54:21 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:5: error: Parse error in pattern: [go, _] |
| 23:54:29 | <ski> | > (\x x -> x) () () |
| 23:54:30 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 23:54:30 | <lambdabot> | • Conflicting definitions for ‘x’ |
| 23:54:31 | <ski> | > (\x -> \x -> x) () () |
| 23:54:31 | <lambdabot> | Bound at: <interactive>:1:3 |
| 23:54:33 | <lambdabot> | () |
| 23:54:40 | <c_wraith> | If you do generalize, can you also get rid of declarations that don't bind names? |
| 23:54:46 | <c_wraith> | > let 1 = 2 in 3 |
| 23:54:47 | <lambdabot> | 3 |
| 23:54:48 | <ski> | EvanR : that's just a type error, though |
| 23:54:54 | <monochrom> | This is why SML and Lean simply bans multiple function equations and provides an equivalent but different syntax sugar instead. :D |
| 23:55:29 | ski | misses `local'-`in'-`end' from SML |
| 23:55:56 | <ski> | c_wraith : that wouldn't be generalizing, now would it ? |
| 23:56:12 | <c_wraith> | it would be part of a greater mission to fix mistakes :P |
| 23:56:20 | <ski> | fair :b |
| 23:56:45 | <ski> | some of the ideas i'm toying with might be regarded as looking strange, though |
| 23:56:52 | <EvanR> | dr sam beckett should have been on the haskell committee |
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| 23:57:59 | <ski> | a taste : |
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| 23:58:12 | <ski> | index :: Stream a -> (Integer -> a) |
| 23:58:16 | <ski> | index (Cons (f 0) (index -> \n -> f (n + 1))) = f |
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| 23:59:11 | <ski> | (apropos "Conflicting definitions for ‘go’") |
| 23:59:33 | <zzz> | > (\x -> \x -> x) 0 1 -- though |
| 23:59:35 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 23:59:41 | <ski> | aye |
All times are in UTC on 2023-11-21.