Logs on 2023-11-24 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:17 | × | eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:2831:95f0:1fbb:6972) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 00:09:53 | × | xff0x quits (~xff0x@178.255.149.135) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
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| 00:38:31 | × | eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:79e8:e4b2:d:f0e6) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 00:48:04 | × | Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-68-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 00:49:46 | × | eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:79e8:e4b2:d:f0e6) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 01:57:15 | ubert1 | is now known as ubert |
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| 03:51:52 | × | FinnElija quits (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija))) |
| 03:51:52 | finn_elija | is now known as FinnElija |
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| 03:57:36 | × | eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:79e8:e4b2:d:f0e6) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 04:22:53 | × | eggplantade quits (~Eggplanta@2600:1700:38c5:d800:79e8:e4b2:d:f0e6) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 04:26:02 | × | thegeekinside quits (~thegeekin@189.217.90.224) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
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| 09:19:41 | <Guest56> | Hello there, how the different XML libraries compare to each other? Are there some " legacy" one? is there the one most people pick? |
| 09:20:42 | <Guest56> | for example xml, xmo-conduit or HaX? |
| 09:21:32 | <Rembane> | Guest56: The least complex but most SAX one is Xeno, here's an article about it: https://chrisdone.com/posts/fast-haskell-c-parsing-xml/ |
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| 09:21:46 | <Rembane> | Guest56: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/xeno |
| 09:22:38 | <Guest56> | I was taking a look at xml-conduit-writer, but it didn'r compile against 9.4.8, not good thing |
| 09:24:14 | <Guest56> | some of the old libraries generate haskell code from xml schemas, was sondering how usefult was that |
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| 09:27:10 | <Rembane> | How much XML do you need to parse? |
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| 09:27:48 | <Guest56> | I actually mostly want to write MusicXML 4.0 |
| 09:28:02 | <Rembane> | How big grammar is it? |
| 09:28:20 | <Guest56> | A bit large |
| 09:28:42 | <Guest56> | but if I'm just writing, it could be simplified I guess |
| 09:29:33 | <Guest56> | https://www.w3.org/2021/06/musicxml40/musicxml-reference/element-tree/ |
| 09:29:38 | <Rembane> | You could just parse or generate the parts you are interested in right now |
| 09:30:28 | <Guest56> | So xeno would be a good start? I'll check it out |
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| 09:31:54 | <Guest56> | what' s the purpuse of xml-conduit comparing to xeno? |
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| 09:33:05 | <Rembane> | I don't know if xeno would be a good start, but I really like the kind of pain that SAX parsers give. |
| 09:34:14 | <Guest56> | The quasiquoters of xml-conduit had my attention |
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| 09:49:07 | <stefan-__> | xeno can only be used to parse xml not to generate xml afair |
| 09:50:03 | <stefan-__> | other than that it is a really performant parser, together with hexml |
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| 09:55:38 | <Guest56> | I want to write/generatel XML (musicXML)... what are the options? |
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| 10:00:06 | <dminuoso_> | Pick a different language. |
| 10:00:43 | <Guest56> | really? |
| 10:00:51 | <kuribas> | dminuoso_: ??? |
| 10:01:26 | <kuribas> | Guest56: I use xmlgen. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/xmlgen-0.6.2.2/docs/Text-XML-Generator.html |
| 10:01:43 | <kuribas> | It's fairly simple to use. A bit over board on typeclasses, but otherwise fast and simple. |
| 10:02:17 | <kuribas> | You could make haskell ADT representing the music, then exporting that to xml. |
| 10:02:39 | <kuribas> | Or just write combinators that produce the xml directly... |
| 10:02:49 | <Guest56> | I could do a minimal test with xml-conduit-writer here |
| 10:02:49 | <Guest56> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/onPf8dgn#file-1 |
| 10:04:19 | <Guest56> | kuribas I'll check it out thanks |
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| 10:07:30 | <Guest56> | Than maybe I could use intances of ToXML like this? |
| 10:07:31 | <Guest56> | https://paste.tomsmeding.com/3iGBdsDq |
| 10:08:00 | <Guest56> | Maybe it's too naive, but I've never worked with xml |
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| 10:33:16 | <simardeep-singh> | hello everyone, just wanted to know how can i start contributing to and know more about current projects undergoing at haskell |
| 10:33:52 | <Guest56> | Realtime GC |
| 10:34:09 | <simardeep-singh> | what is realtime gc ? |
| 10:34:40 | <Guest56> | garbage-colector. make GHC work with realtime scheduling at very low latencies |
| 10:34:50 | <Guest56> | that's what is missing |
| 10:36:04 | <dminuoso_> | Guest56: Its an option I would sincerely consider if I had to deal with XML. |
| 10:36:25 | <simardeep-singh> | can you share repo link ? |
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| 10:36:46 | <Guest56> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/atom |
| 10:36:58 | <dminuoso_> | simardeep-singh: Contribute to projects you use frequently or enjoy. |
| 10:37:02 | <Guest56> | dminuoso_ is trolling |
| 10:37:11 | <dminuoso_> | If that's what you think *shrugs* |
| 10:37:26 | <dminuoso_> | What do I know about Haskell |
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| 10:38:20 | <Guest56> | simardeep-singh tell us about your background, it would be helpful |
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| 10:40:12 | <simardeep-singh> | i am a beginner or noob currently started learning haskell and thought should explore some haskell projects to contribute side by side, currently i have knowledge of web frameworks, web sockets, web rtc, flutter and c++ |
| 10:40:37 | <dminuoso_> | simardeep-singh: Pick any haskell library you are using, then. |
| 10:40:56 | <dminuoso_> | Contributing to projects you dont know will likely not keep you motivated. |
| 10:41:40 | <dminuoso_> | If you focus on stuff you use, you improve your knowledge of your tools and you get to make your own life easier by fixing stuff that annoys you, |
| 10:41:53 | <dminuoso_> | Or by implementing features you actually need. |
| 10:43:09 | <simardeep-singh> | ok,it means i should probably start contributing to haskell after gaining some experience |
| 10:43:22 | <simardeep-singh> | on working with haskell |
| 10:43:33 | <dminuoso_> | Depends, plenty of libraries have issues that even beginners can fix. |
| 10:44:00 | <dminuoso_> | Besides, if you cant, perhaps the experience of trying and figure out how to fix it will actually improve your haskell experience |
| 10:44:14 | <dminuoso_> | All while you are being exposed to how Haskell code is (usually) written. |
| 10:44:36 | <danse-nr3> | also, contributing documentation is easier done as a beginner |
| 10:44:39 | <dminuoso_> | Even if its just mundane things like fixing Haddock documentation, adjusting bounds |
| 10:45:00 | <Guest56> | read Real World Haskell, and take a look at Yesod |
| 10:45:17 | <danse-nr3> | i would not recommend yesod nowadays |
| 10:45:23 | <dminuoso_> | Real World Haskell I would probably not recommend, either. |
| 10:45:55 | <Guest56> | Learn You a Haskell for Great Good? What do you recommend??? |
| 10:46:24 | <danse-nr3> | well that is shifting topics, we were talking projects and contributions |
| 10:47:12 | <Guest56> | yesod is a popular webframework, another one is snap |
| 10:48:00 | <dminuoso_> | CIS194 (both versions by Brent Yorgey and Joachim Breitner) is my generally favoured learning material. It's structured well from a pedagogic point of view, and better suited for modern Haskell. |
| 10:48:17 | <dminuoso_> | Though I would ask for a background before making a recommendation, there's some other learning material. |
| 10:48:42 | <danse-nr3> | Guest56's suggestions make me think that even updating the wiki would be valuable. I think the page about web frameworks there and the page about the javascript problem might use some adjustments here and there |
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| 10:52:06 | <opqdonut> | I humbly recommend having a look at my course - haskell.mooc.fi |
| 10:52:13 | <opqdonut> | it's been pretty well received among students |
| 10:52:39 | <opqdonut> | it has automated grading of exercises and an online textbook |
| 10:52:42 | <dminuoso_> | opqdonut: Ive been meaning to ask. Will I get get credits if I complete your course? :-) |
| 10:53:07 | <opqdonut> | you'll get a certificate, which might be good for credits depending on your university |
| 10:53:30 | <opqdonut> | if you're studying at a finnish university, you'll get actual honest credits, after a bit of paper pushing |
| 10:53:39 | <dminuoso_> | Oh Im not a student. |
| 10:54:23 | <opqdonut> | well then the certificate is probably what you want :) |
| 10:54:59 | <opqdonut> | I don't actually handle the credit stuff, and I haven't been involved in university politics for some time, so I don't _actually_ know how any of this works |
| 10:55:13 | <opqdonut> | but both helsinki university and the helsinki open university offer this as a Real Course |
| 10:55:19 | <opqdonut> | (self-study, but real credits) |
| 10:55:26 | <simardeep-singh> | thanks opqdonut for the learning resource |
| 10:55:28 | <stefan-__> | Guest56: I did some benchmarking of haskell xml libraries, might be interesting to you: https://github.com/dozed/basic-xml-benchmark-hs/ |
| 10:56:26 | <Guest56> | stefan-__ thanks, I'm not terribly concerned at optimizations at this point, but good to know |
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| 15:46:01 | <duncan> | Big issue with OSS libraries is lack of anyone to test them, since that costs a lot of money |
| 15:46:40 | <kuribas> | tests? we don't need tests, if it compiles, it works! |
| 15:48:18 | <int-e> | "I've only compiled the code, not proved it correct" |
| 15:48:19 | <danse-nr3> | actually i think the success of unsafe languages is largely related to the free testing they get by popularity |
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| 15:49:53 | <kuribas> | I think it's about the compiler/interpreter not telling you about all the things that may go wrong. |
| 15:50:08 | <kuribas> | Making you feel all warm and cozy. |
| 15:50:46 | <int-e> | What's it supposed to say? "Did you know that when you run code, things may happen?" |
| 15:51:35 | <kuribas> | Yeah, a dynamic language compiler with disclaimer would be nice. |
| 15:52:07 | <danse-nr3> | "make sure this code gets very successful and used by many otherwise better to throw it away" |
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| 15:56:43 | <kuribas> | Don't all dynamic languages have type systems now? |
| 15:58:18 | <danse-nr3> | isn't that a contradiction in terms? |
| 15:58:37 | <kuribas> | No, they are just optional. |
| 15:58:53 | <kuribas> | javascript => typescript, python => type annotations |
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| 15:59:11 | <int-e> | Perl? Lua? |
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| 15:59:33 | <kuribas> | Ruby => Sorbet |
| 15:59:41 | <kuribas> | perl is obsolete :) |
| 15:59:58 | <danse-nr3> | typescript is not javascript, and the dynamic language is what one is left with when the types are missing. Otherwise it is not dynamic anymore. Although this definition of dynamic sounds flawed |
| 16:00:19 | <int-e> | kuribas: Dare I even mention PHP? |
| 16:00:35 | <danse-nr3> | "dynamic" languages often still have types, just very few of them |
| 16:02:13 | <kuribas> | s/all/most popular/ |
| 16:02:45 | <raehik> | Is there something like `foldMap` for contravariant? I've written some weird generics which combine all fields of a data type using `divide`. It does what I want, but I don't know how to name it (and foldMap seems closest) |
| 16:04:39 | <ncf> | type? |
| 16:05:32 | <raehik> | I'm not sure how best to present. here is the product handling https://paste.tomsmeding.com/7lGlRwIY |
| 16:07:00 | <raehik> | this is in a lib with a "generic foldmap" because that works by turning each field of a type into a monoid, and combining them |
| 16:08:20 | <kuribas> | They all have the same types? |
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| 16:09:50 | <raehik> | kuribas: what do sorry? (foldmap or contravariant code?) |
| 16:10:06 | <kuribas> | the fields of the data type. |
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| 16:11:11 | <raehik> | no, they can be different. the generics take in a class to resolve "valid" types in the generic structure |
| 16:12:14 | <raehik> | e.g. for a serializing lib, you might have a class with a `a -> Bytes` function. you pass that class & func into the generics so it can serialize each field it finds |
| 16:14:17 | <raehik> | it feels like generic foldmap where `(a -> m)` is a dictionary, and `t a` is the generic rep |
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| 16:15:31 | <raehik> | I wrote similar using contravariant instead, products are combined using `divide`. I don't really know how to name the generic though. |
| 16:16:10 | <raehik> | further code here but not great clarity https://github.com/raehik/generic-data-functions/pull/4 |
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| 16:58:57 | <raehik> | anybody have a good name for a contravariant functor like: `data X b a = XNeedA (a -> b) | XJustB b` |
| 16:59:42 | <raehik> | it seems like a sensible common contravariant but I can't find any similar-looking definitions |
| 17:03:38 | <ski> | raehik : reminds me of <https://twanvl.nl/blog/haskell/non-regular1>,<https://stackoverflow.com/questions/64935210/what-subclasses-of-profunctor-does-funlist-support> |
| 17:03:59 | <ski> | (not exactly the same, though) |
| 17:06:33 | <raehik> | yeah it's got the same "maybe we use this typevar maybe we don't" |
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| 17:09:49 | <monochrom> | FreeMonadGeneratedFromReaderButIUseItBackwards |
| 17:10:32 | <duncan> | raehik: Prion |
| 17:10:53 | <duncan> | it folds. naughtily. |
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| 17:17:33 | <ncf> | curiously, that's not the free monad on Reader qua endofunctor, it's the free monad on Reader qua "semigroupad" (Bind) |
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| 17:18:39 | <ncf> | i.e. it's to Reader what Monoid (Maybe a) is to Semigroup a |
| 17:21:03 | <raehik> | thanks ncf, though I don't fully understand that... I know of free monads, but I don't know how to understand "free monad on Reader" |
| 17:21:23 | <raehik> | I get what you mean though |
| 17:21:55 | <ncf> | i'm just reacting to monochrom's joke with an annoying correction (that might happen to be interesting if you care about those things) but i don't know that it applies to the problem at hand |
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| 17:22:27 | <ncf> | but i mean Free (Reader a), where Free is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/free-5.2/docs/Control-Monad-Free.html#t:Free |
| 17:24:29 | <c_wraith> | It's kinda fun to compare (Free (Reader a) b) with ([a] -> b). They're similar but... opposite in a key way. |
| 17:25:31 | <monochrom> | Yes I have functor-to-free-monad in mind, not the bind one. |
| 17:25:47 | <c_wraith> | similar in that they're sort of functions that take some number of a values and return a b. Opposite in who gets to choose how many a values to pass. |
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| 17:27:45 | <raehik> | bah I don't know my monad algebra well enough |
| 17:27:54 | <ncf> | with the free applicative version it boils down to (∃ n. Vec n a → b) vs (∀ n. Vec n a → b), but the free monad also gives "opponent" the freedom to look at the first arguments before deciding if it needs more |
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| 17:32:45 | <monochrom> | raehik: The free monad for teletype I/O is "U a | Put Char a | Get (Char -> a)". You basically have the get half "U a | Get (Char -> a)" but then you say you don't read it as a functor applied to a, you read it as a contravariant functor applied to Char. |
| 17:33:55 | <ncf> | that's not a mona |
| 17:33:56 | <ncf> | d |
| 17:34:12 | <c_wraith> | well, it's the functor. you have to Free it |
| 17:34:24 | <ncf> | but presumably you don't include U in the base functor |
| 17:34:30 | <ncf> | unless that means something specific? |
| 17:34:48 | <monochrom> | I fused Free with the (->)Char functor. |
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| 17:35:57 | <ncf> | ? |
| 17:36:01 | <monochrom> | ? |
| 17:37:11 | <ncf> | that doesn't make any sense |
| 17:37:38 | <raehik> | I'm still surprised that Free applies to my type because of the recursion |
| 17:38:02 | <monochrom> | Err, oh, I see. My bad. |
| 17:38:12 | <ncf> | raehik: it doesn't, that was the point of my correction |
| 17:38:24 | <raehik> | aha right |
| 17:38:28 | <ncf> | you need a different Free, which is just Free f a = Pure a | Free (f a) |
| 17:38:30 | <monochrom> | Yeah I forgot the recursion. |
| 17:39:43 | <monochrom> | The correct free monad would be "Foo a = U a | Get (Char -> Foo a)" and I mistook "Foo a" with "a". |
| 17:40:12 | <ncf> | *nod* |
| 17:42:38 | <raehik> | a different Free? what do you mean by that ncf ? |
| 17:43:12 | <raehik> | (I have a vague understanding of free transformations but it's rusty) |
| 17:43:13 | <ncf> | a different type which i confusingly named Free but should really be named FreeMonadOnBind |
| 17:43:25 | <ncf> | or like, Maybe1 |
| 17:43:29 | <raehik> | Right |
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| 17:45:14 | <ncf> | (the idea being that Maybe1 f = f + 1 in the monoidal category of endofunctors we're interested in, just like Maybe a = 1 + a in the category of types, and that there is an instance Bind f => Monad (Maybe1 f) for endofunctors just like there is an instance Semigroup a => Monoid (Maybe a) for types) |
| 17:46:23 | <raehik> | ok |
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| 17:48:00 | <raehik> | is my original type even a monad/can it be massaged into one? on first glance it doesn't look like it |
| 17:48:34 | <raehik> | the types need to be in contravariant order (I think) |
| 17:49:17 | <raehik> | wait, no, you can't have Functor and Contravariant so ofc not |
| 17:49:32 | <EvanR> | if it can't be a Functor it can't be a Monad |
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| 18:04:41 | <raehik> | my `data X b a = XNeedA (a -> b) | XJustB b` type is actually just `Op` with an extra constructor, hrm |
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| 20:23:06 | <c_wraith> | raehik: types can be both Functor and Contravariant. It means their last type parameter is phantom. |
| 20:24:17 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 20:24:28 | <monochrom> | E.g., data Proxy a = Proxy |
| 20:24:46 | <monochrom> | Of course, 99% of types are not degenerate like that. |
| 20:24:48 | <c_wraith> | or data Const a b = Const a |
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| 20:26:14 | <monochrom> | But this is why Moggi's papers have to paintakingly add one more condition (on top of the usual monad laws) that says, among other things, he wants pure to be injective, so that he doesn't have to worry about phantom monads. |
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| 20:35:04 | <c_wraith> | lens actually makes use of Applicative+Contravariant. That combination of constraints gives you a Fold, which can only be used to extract a summary of a data structure instead of rebuilding it. There aren't many things that actually use those constraints, though. |
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| 20:46:35 | <duncan> | I really thing this focus on naming the thing is... not helpfu |
| 20:47:48 | <duncan> | You can't massage a type into Monad if it's not a Monad. We have the monad laws and they're pretty simple. (Simpler than the online conversation about Monads which is thoroughly misleading and turns beginners off) |
| 20:48:15 | <duncan> | Call it whatever you like, I suggested Prion because we should be calling more types fun things. |
| 20:48:33 | <monochrom> | I hate prions. They are not fun. |
| 20:48:59 | <duncan> | Makes more sense thdan "LetMeSpecifyThisWonderfulWordSaladWhileIReferenceBrilliantConceptsCurrentInFunctionalProgramming" |
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| 20:51:04 | <jackdk> | a type that's often more useful than `Proxy` but is both `Applicative` and `Contravariant`: `newtype Const r a = Const { getConst :: r }`. Its `instance Monoid r => Applicative (Const r)` is how lens' folds work |
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| 21:00:18 | <monochrom> | GeneralizedGremlin. data GeneralizedGremlin g food = Daytime (food -> g) | NighttimeDontFeed g |
| 21:01:17 | <mauke> | > traverse (show . length) (words "Samuel Harris Altman") |
| 21:01:18 | <lambdabot> | ["666"] |
| 21:01:38 | <monochrom> | :( |
| 21:01:49 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 21:02:23 | <monochrom> | Is that how you generate random passwords? Choose 3 words of 6 letters each? >:) |
| 21:03:50 | <monochrom> | "That a hell of a password." >:) |
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| 21:06:00 | <darkling> | There are probably worse approaches. |
| 21:06:46 | <Rembane> | Yeah, you could consistently use hunter2 as password. |
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| 21:14:49 | <darkling> | Seven stars? |
| 21:15:41 | <Rembane> | That one's also really good, but I wrote hunter2 |
| 21:16:04 | <darkling> | That's seven stars. ;) |
| 21:17:11 | <Rembane> | :D |
| 21:17:36 | <int-e> | ✶✷✸✹✸✷✶ |
| 21:17:56 | <int-e> | (imagine a password prompt leaking bits like that :) ) |
| 21:18:57 | <darkling> | *⁑⁂☃ |
| 21:19:03 | <newsham> | there's an OS that prints *'s for each character of your password you type, but picks a random number of stars for each character. |
| 21:19:23 | <Rembane> | It's like Wordle but for passwords and the other way around. |
| 21:19:54 | <newsham> | but you know.. statistics.. you could still find out the length with some statistics and enough measurements |
| 21:20:07 | <newsham> | still, cute |
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| 21:31:58 | ski | . o O ( for the incognoscenti <https://web.archive.org/web/20050207014928/http://www.bash.org/?244321> ) |
| 21:32:50 | <darkling> | Wait... bash.org died? |
| 21:32:54 | <Rembane> | The nostalgia <3 |
| 21:33:09 | <Rembane> | It was well and alive just a few months ago. |
| 21:33:12 | <int-e> | So with password rotations we would be at something like hunter42 by now? |
| 21:33:13 | <darkling> | Indeed. |
| 21:33:24 | <ski> | darkling : dunno .. can't seem to access it from here, atm, anyway |
| 21:33:35 | <darkling> | Yeah, it's not responding here either. |
| 21:33:44 | <ski> | perhaps it's just a temporary thing |
| 21:33:44 | <int-e> | (it's an 8 star password!) |
| 21:35:32 | <darkling> | What witchery is this? |
| 21:35:53 | <int-e> | archive.org has a July 19th snapshot from this year. |
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