Logs on 2023-12-13 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:03:10 | <EvanR> | there's two halves of people in this channel, the below average half that don't understand statistics, and those that do |
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| 00:03:47 | <monochrom> | heh |
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| 00:10:19 | <glguy> | ?quote 50% |
| 00:10:19 | <lambdabot> | Tac-Tics says: Haskell is 50% style and 60% research... and -10% code bloat |
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| 00:11:01 | <monochrom> | haha cute |
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| 00:15:33 | <iqubic> | If both the Travesable and the Applicative are [], then sequenceA ~ transpose, right? |
| 00:15:44 | <iqubic> | Is that correct? |
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| 00:30:02 | <iqubic> | If both the Travesable and the Applicative are [], then sequenceA ~ transpose, right? |
| 00:30:08 | <iqubic> | I might be wrong about that. |
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| 00:31:35 | <geekosaur> | no, because there's a Cartesian product involved in the Applicative |
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| 00:32:50 | <monochrom> | You can easily come up with a simple test case. |
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| 00:34:16 | <[Leary]> | @check \xss -> sequenceA xss == transpose xss |
| 00:34:17 | <lambdabot> | *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test): |
| 00:34:17 | <lambdabot> | [] |
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| 01:08:34 | <glguy> | [Leary]: I think perhaps the only time that's true is for [[x]] |
| 01:09:05 | <glguy> | @check \xss -> sequenceA xss /= transpose xss |
| 01:09:06 | <lambdabot> | *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 2 tests and 1 shrink): |
| 01:09:06 | <lambdabot> | [[()]] |
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| 01:16:01 | <Joao003> | Am I the only one that uses `toEnum' to coerce types of class `Enum'? |
| 01:20:40 | <monochrom> | s/coerce/convert/ but nothing wrong with toEnum. |
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| 01:23:54 | <mosul> | 9 |
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| 03:38:42 | <Square2> | What would you say is the biggest reason Haskell hasn't gained more industry use? |
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| 03:42:16 | <c_wraith> | it requires learning something actually new, instead of another syntax for C or perl |
| 03:42:34 | <c_wraith> | that terrifies people who are really into words like "meritocracy" |
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| 04:03:55 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> good question.. the most often state reason is difficulty of hiring (large numbers of cheap) developers |
| 04:05:19 | <Square2> | c_wraith, I feel there must be other reasons. Manay developers who get into Haskell fall in love with it. Me included. I wonder if you end up in hard to debug situations. Or some friction that shows up in enterprise situations. Just guessing. |
| 04:05:33 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> another is just the perception and somewhat fact that it's too exotic and risky, industry usually has a limited novelty budget |
| 04:06:07 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> another is the reputed frequency and difficulty of avoiding space leaks and memory hogging |
| 04:06:18 | <EvanR> | haskell is ivory tower nonsense you need a PhD to understand. And there are way too many operators |
| 04:06:29 | <EvanR> | actual testimony |
| 04:07:17 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> but it's getting there |
| 04:07:42 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> (industry) |
| 04:10:52 | <Square2> | sm, thanks for your input. |
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| 04:29:21 | <probie> | Square2: There are gaps in the ecosystem, the tooling is nothing exceptional, and it's very easy to forget to add a strictness annotation somewhere and end up with a space leak |
| 04:30:23 | <Square2> | probie, Do you have an example of "gaps in the ecosystem"? |
| 04:31:30 | <probie> | Most recently, I couldn't find a GraphQL server library that I was comfortable with using in production |
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| 04:37:20 | <probie> | Also, I don't think there's up to date llvm bindings, which isn't a show stopper for an AOT compiler (just do what GHC does and generate the LLVM IR yourself), but that's not good enough if you writing an interpreter and want to use LLVM as a JIT |
| 04:38:37 | <probie> | At least last time I checked, the machine learning libraries available weren't that great (although I think hasktorch is getting better) |
| 04:43:44 | <probie> | Also, being insufficiently mainstream means that most third party services you might want to integrate with won't have a Haskell SDK, which can be an issue if their "REST API" is poorly documented |
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| 04:59:27 | <probie> | and back to gaps - there's not really any maintained GIS libraries (at least not that I could find) |
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| 05:51:07 | <phma> | I'm preparing a library package for first release. It consists of two modules which I expect people to import, seven internal modules, a main program, two modules used by the main program, and a test suite. |
| 05:51:39 | <phma> | Do the internal modules count as API for the purpose of changing the version number? |
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| 07:03:53 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> hmm.. if they're exposed, ie visible in the haddocks on hackage, I think they do, even if you call them Foor.Internal.Bar |
| 07:04:00 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> if not exposed, then no |
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| 07:08:55 | <Inst> | lol, I'm out in sunny Singapore, and I'm dressed for Beijing |
| 07:09:04 | <Inst> | nope, don't worry, have no intent to meet anyone here :3 |
| 07:09:26 | <Inst> | Anyways, do you guys know how to debug this issue with ghcup? |
| 07:09:39 | <Inst> | /usr/bin/ld.gold: error: cannot find -lgmp |
| 07:09:56 | <mauke> | install libgmp? |
| 07:10:53 | <danza> | are you a nomading haskeller now Inst? |
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| 07:13:25 | <Inst> | it should be working |
| 07:14:33 | <Inst> | “Kiyoaki Matsugae was caught by unpredictable love, Isao Iinuma by destiny, Ying Chan by the flesh. And you?” (p206) |
| 07:14:40 | <Inst> | @danza |
| 07:14:40 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 07:14:43 | <Inst> | Sorry about being neglectful |
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| 07:15:39 | <Inst> | and no, it's not the streamer, although she got back to me ("I'm learning foreign languages, but I'll also take up an interest in computer science" [after I sent her HTDP, SICP, various Haskell books, some Py books) |
| 07:15:47 | <Inst> | something darker |
| 07:16:08 | <phma> | sm: how do I make them visible or not? It's not on Hackage yet; I haven't even tagged a release. |
| 07:16:10 | <danza> | “Kiyoaki Matsugae was caught by unpredictable love, Isao Iinuma by destiny, Ying Chan by the flesh. And you?” |
| 07:16:22 | <danza> | don't know... Mishima? |
| 07:17:21 | <Inst> | yayaya |
| 07:17:35 | <Inst> | god I love you guys, best culture ever <3 |
| 07:18:25 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> phma: you list each module in the cabal file as either an exposed file or other file (IIRC) |
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| 07:18:32 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> other are hidden |
| 07:19:06 | <phma> | sm: what do I do in package.yaml? |
| 07:19:30 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> it's similar there.. check the hpack readme |
| 07:19:38 | <phma> | ok |
| 07:20:01 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> https://github.com/sol/hpack#library-fields |
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| 07:22:50 | <mauke> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2NXAk-XkoQ |
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| 07:35:25 | <ski> | > (map getZipList . getZipList . sequenceA . ZipList . map ZipList) [[0,1,2],[3,4,5],[6,7,8]] -- iqubic, "If both the Travesable and the Applicative are [], then sequenceA ~ transpose, right?" |
| 07:35:26 | <lambdabot> | [[0,3,6],[1,4,7],[2,5,8]] |
| 07:35:51 | <danza> | what did you refer to with "it's not the streamer [...] something darker"? Inst |
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| 07:49:38 | <danza> | what did you refer to with "it's not the streamer [...] something darker"? Inst (repeating because i think your connection was down) |
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| 13:58:06 | <hasevil> | Hey guys, Is there a way to selectively insert values in a list of a custom type from another list of custom types. |
| 13:58:11 | <hasevil> | WIP code https://paste.tomsmeding.com/aJC39Oow |
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| 14:00:00 | <carbolymer> | but do you want to get them out later? |
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| 14:06:02 | <hasevil> | carbolymer: ? |
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| 16:13:56 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> you can match on your list like `[str1, str2, str3]`, which would make the code a lot cleaner for a start |
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| 18:52:57 | <d34df00d> | Hi! |
| 18:53:25 | <d34df00d> | How do I lens-golf a `Lens' a b` into a `Lens' (Maybe a) (Maybe b)`? Or a Getter instead of a Lens', if that's simpler. |
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| 18:56:18 | <glguy> | > Just ('a','b') ^? folded . _2 |
| 18:56:20 | <lambdabot> | Just 'b' |
| 18:56:46 | <glguy> | > Just ('a','b') %~ mapped . _2 $ succ |
| 18:56:48 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 18:56:48 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match type ‘Maybe (Char, Char)’ |
| 18:56:48 | <lambdabot> | with ‘((a1 -> f1 b1) -> Identity (f0 a0 -> f1 (f0 b0))) |
| 18:57:19 | <glguy> | It's been a while since I lensed |
| 18:57:31 | <d34df00d> | I wish I didn't have to lens. |
| 18:58:34 | <glguy> | > over (mapped . _2) succ (Just ('a','b')) |
| 18:58:35 | <lambdabot> | Just ('a','c') |
| 18:59:15 | <glguy> | ah! |
| 18:59:15 | <glguy> | > mapped . _2 %~ succ $ Just ('a','b') |
| 18:59:17 | <lambdabot> | Just ('a','c') |
| 18:59:28 | <d34df00d> | gosh |
| 18:59:45 | <d34df00d> | I only need to get the field anyway, so I'll probably stick with folded. |
| 18:59:47 | <d34df00d> | and ^? |
| 18:59:50 | <d34df00d> | Whatever that all means. |
| 18:59:50 | <glguy> | but you can't quite get a lens because you couldn't replace the Nothing with some Just b and get a sensible Just a |
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| 19:01:28 | <ncf> | (note that that's `Lens' (Maybe a) b`, not `Lens' (Maybe a) (Maybe b)`) |
| 19:02:34 | <d34df00d> | Eh. |
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| 19:03:40 | <d34df00d> | Yeah, doesn't type check. |
| 19:03:53 | <ncf> | er, Fold' (Maybe a) b i guess |
| 19:04:10 | <ncf> | or Traversal' (Maybe a) b if you use traversed |
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| 19:05:27 | <d34df00d> | So if I have `foo :: Lens' Env (Maybe Field)` and `bar :: Lens' Field Subfield`, how do I get a Getter (or something that can be passed to `view`, say) that'll take me from Env to Maybe Subfield? |
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| 19:07:39 | <ncf> | one way is to do foo.folded.bar as glguy suggested, which gets you a Fold' Env Subfield, from which you can get a function Env -> Maybe Subfield using `preview` |
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| 19:08:44 | <kaol> | https://github.com/frasertweedale/hs-jose/pull/120 I wrote some Haskell. We needed JWE support at work and I had spare time to expand on it. |
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| 19:09:47 | <d34df00d> | Ah, preview was missing! |
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| 19:13:22 | <d34df00d> | ncf: glguy: thank you folks. |
| 19:14:42 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> (I don't know anything about lenses really, so please excuse my ignorance) |
| 19:14:42 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> is there not some way to "combine" these using something like `view bar <$> view foo`? |
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| 19:15:35 | <ncf> | d34df00d: another way is foo.pre(folded.bar), which gets you a Getter' Env (Maybe Subfield) which you can use with (^.) |
| 19:16:04 | <monochrom> | kaol: Methinks they missed the opportunity of naming it "hose" instead of "jose". >:) |
| 19:16:53 | <d34df00d> | I really really need to catch up on lenses, especially since the code base I'm working on rn relies on them somewhat. |
| 19:17:02 | <ncf> | another way is what Celestial suggests, i.e. just get the field and then fmap your other getter on it |
| 19:17:12 | <kaol> | It wouldn't be doing favors for discoverability. Several other languages have libraries that have jose in their names. |
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| 19:17:40 | <monochrom> | :( |
| 19:17:54 | <kaol> | Yeah, I'm no fun. |
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| 19:21:41 | <kaol> | I'm a bit surprised that nobody else had yet had a go at adding JWE support. But I guess open source means that sometimes that someone just has to be you. |
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| 19:22:02 | <monochrom> | Yeah absolutely. |
| 19:22:19 | <monochrom> | Well, under the volunteer model. |
| 19:22:20 | <kaol> | https://xkcd.com/2347/ |
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| 19:23:45 | <monochrom> | You know, the corporate model suffers the equivalent problem one-company-going-bust-collapses-everything. |
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| 20:26:46 | <ggVGc> | what is haskellbridge bridging with? |
| 20:27:00 | <geekosaur> | #haskell-irc:matrix.org |
| 20:27:03 | <ggVGc> | Haven't kpt up with the times |
| 20:27:06 | <ggVGc> | ah, right, makes sense |
| 20:27:27 | <ggVGc> | Was hoping it wasn't a discord channel... |
| 20:27:59 | <geekosaur> | yeh, I'm only doing matrix, at least so far |
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| 20:40:23 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> hello from matrix side :) |
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| 20:49:07 | <EvanR> | operator here, we're working on getting you out of the matrix |
| 20:49:46 | <monochrom> | hee hee |
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| 20:52:04 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> I will take the purple pill (im grinding the red and blue pills into dist and putting them back into one pill) |
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| 20:52:46 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> s/dist/dust |
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| 20:53:10 | <monochrom> | Um that should give you two pills... |
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| 20:53:35 | <exarkun> | some always ends up on the floor |
| 20:53:47 | <monochrom> | But I guess you can then run the Banach-Tarski theorem backwards and transform two into one. |
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| 20:54:56 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> one big pill |
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| 20:55:18 | <dolio> | You can't run the Banach-Tarski theorem. :þ |
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| 20:56:40 | <monochrom> | But I think a better pun would be to continue the matrix...operator... line and make a superposed qubit pill (1/sqrt(2))red + (1/sqrt(2))blue. |
| 20:57:44 | <monochrom> | "Grinding into dust is so classical and passe"... |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-12-13.