Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2023-12-15 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:05:45 → Square2 joins (~Square4@user/square)
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01:32:36 <sm> ha ha you joke but it's true
01:33:11 <sm> don't forget to press the keys far enough down, and for the right length of time
01:36:24 × sagax quits (~sagax_nb@user/sagax) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
01:36:54 <johnw> what about my hybrid-mechanical Topre switches?
01:37:05 <johnw> it's all about capacitance
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01:38:06 <c_wraith> I'm sure they do some quantum too
01:42:11 <duncan> Not all lambs enter text mechanically.
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02:14:43 ← arahael_ parts (~arahael@1.145.73.104) ()
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02:25:17 × euleritian quits (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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02:59:42 <albet70> Module `Network.Wai.Handler.WarpTLS' does not export `certFile'
02:59:55 <albet70> Module `Network.Wai.Handler.WarpTLS' does not export `keyFile'
02:59:56 → peterbecich joins (~Thunderbi@047-229-123-186.res.spectrum.com)
03:00:17 <albet70> help, I do not find certFile and keyFile on hackage
03:00:40 <albet70> in Web/Scotty/TLS.hs:17:47: error:
03:02:18 × FinnElija quits (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija)))
03:02:19 → FinnElija joins (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643)
03:04:51 <glguy> albet70: What are you doing that generates that error? What is the actual error? Can you put that stuff on a pastebin?
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03:47:45 × edr quits (~edr@user/edr) (Quit: Leaving)
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04:00:32 × FinnElija quits (~finn_elij@user/finn-elija/x-0085643) (Killed (NickServ (Forcing logout FinnElija -> finn_elija)))
04:00:32 finn_elija is now known as FinnElija
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04:26:10 <albet70> glguy , https://paste.tomsmeding.com/0DWUhtax
04:27:11 <glguy> albet70: that package doesn't bother listing the bounds of packages it supports because the author would rather you figured that out
04:27:35 <glguy> so you'll need to just hunt back through old versions until you find one that works
04:28:00 <glguy> scotty-tls doesn't give lower bounds, so that's probably a good place to start looking
04:28:55 <glguy> does give*
04:29:44 <glguy> this package was uploaded in 2015, so you might end up needing to use an older GHC from that time to get everything working together
04:30:28 × euleritian quits (~euleritia@dynamic-089-204-137-128.89.204.137.pool.telefonica.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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04:30:45 → euleritian joins (~euleritia@ip4d16fc38.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
04:32:33 <albet70> I use the same GHC 8.8.4 on server and local, it's fine on server
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05:13:04 <probie> albet70: Unless you _really_ need to do it in your Haskell program, I'd recommend outsourcing ssl termination to something like nginx
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06:19:35 <albet70> it's the warp-tls problem, I have fix it
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09:02:06 <mauke> love getting spam mail from "Jonathan Haskel"
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09:03:59 mauke wibbles
09:05:17 <mauke> heh. the matrix bridge is kinda broken with ACTIONs. instead of turning it into a matrix action, it makes the haskellbridge bridge bot say "* haskellbridge <mauke> wibbles"
09:05:24 <mauke> why is it repeating its own name? :-D
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09:07:44 haskellbridge 14<m​auke> wobbles
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09:27:19 <dminuoso_> mauke: Perhaps for parity in IRC?
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09:57:16 <srk> hmm, if an old user can't migrate their old hackage account from basic auth, should they just contact support?
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10:05:14 <albet70> is MVar efficent?
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10:08:33 <dminuoso_> srk: Are you saying that Hackage in 2023 has moved away from HTTP Basic Authentication?
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10:09:35 <srk> dminuoso_: seems like it! https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server/issues/1153#issuecomment-1370308832
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10:09:55 <srk> for legacy accounts whatever it means
10:10:05 <srk> hmm, there's #hackage as well
10:16:41 <srk> dminuoso_: I want to add 2FA to it https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server/issues/1265
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10:17:18 <dminuoso_> Hackage in a really strange state. :S
10:17:29 <dminuoso_> The code base is old and strangely written.
10:17:55 <srk> yeah, it is interesting! I like that it uses acid-state and plugins
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10:18:50 <dminuoso_> Recently Ive just bitten the bullet and accepted that Haskell is just not the ideal language for easy web development.
10:19:04 <dminuoso_> And Im being very nice here.
10:19:19 <danse-nr3> because there is no good javascript solution?
10:20:02 <srk> recently I've stumbled on some mailicious package listed in Reverse dependencies that was removed from db but not everywhere it seems
10:20:40 <srk> dminuoso_: https://joeyh.name/blog/entry/Haskell_webassembly_in_the_browser/
10:20:49 <dminuoso_> danse-nr3: No, its just the only real solution for quickly prototyping stuff is yesod, which puts you in a world of quasiquoters, template haskell, opioninated stuff, etc..
10:21:36 <srk> possibly IHP as well https://ihp.digitallyinduced.com/ (but no experience with that)
10:21:39 <dminuoso_> srk: Sure, I mean my issue is not that its fundamentally impossible. Its just that there is no good ecosystem of easy-to-use, extensible web-related packages you can plug together.
10:21:42 <srk> I've only used miso for frontend before
10:21:55 <srk> indeed
10:22:04 <srk> (purescript! :D)
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10:22:15 <srk> but it's a very large investment
10:22:30 <dminuoso_> The things you do have will toss a dependency closure of 127 packages at you.
10:23:36 <srk> recently I've opted for javascript, npm, nix for fronted with just haskell backend. for implicitcad web editor https://editor.staging.48.io/
10:24:08 <srk> because otherwise I would have to wrap d3.js and monaco via purescript or miso
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10:30:26 <danse-nr3> yeah, no good solution for the javascript problem yet, purescript and backends being my best bets. I have been told that web assembly is far from being a complete spec, while haskell-to-javascript moving out of GHCJS and into an embedded backend gives me some hope. Possibly stuff like miso will become more reliable with that. Yesod seems dead to me, it failed being haskell's django. Server side rendering is of less and less worth since ... almost 10
10:30:26 <danse-nr3> years now? And yesod's concept of "batteries included" seems to be more "all ghc features included". But it was a brave attempt
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10:36:25 <srk> fun, I've never used yesod but persistent is great
10:37:42 <hc> Indeed, persistent is great!
10:38:02 <hc> And there's another library if you need more sql features but retain the type safety... cannot remember the name but it works together with persistent
10:38:48 <srk> esqueleto?
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10:39:04 <hc> yes indeed
10:40:09 <danse-nr3> this is a nice post about SQL solutions that appeared on haskell weekly some time ago dev.to/zelenya/series/24889
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10:41:51 <Rembane> Lets make it clickable: https://dev.to/zelenya/series/24889
10:42:31 <danse-nr3> it is clickable also without protocol for me on hexchat
10:42:36 <dminuoso_> For me, Im just offloading everything into Django for web right not at $work
10:42:45 <dminuoso_> But we dont care for SPA, so there's that.
10:43:20 <danse-nr3> django is not great for client side logic, but it has sooo many other advantages...
10:43:52 <dminuoso_> Its dead simple, very low complexity abstractions, but very extensible/hookable. And it comes with a rich ecosystem of utility things.
10:43:56 <dminuoso_> And it has a near zero dependency footprint.
10:44:06 <dminuoso_> That last bit is what sometimes really annoys me about Haskell.
10:44:57 <dminuoso_> So many packages will drag 1/3 of hackage alongside, which introduces issues with updates, supply chain trust, portability, cross compilation, mere compile time, etc..
10:45:21 <danse-nr3> its ecosystem is ridicolous, and it made some great design choices. That default interface you get ... is that called the admin app? You can model data while your clients fill it in
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10:45:34 <danse-nr3> *ridiculous
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10:46:01 <srk> +!
10:47:00 <dminuoso_> danse-nr3: Not quite, the admin app is rather a very simple CRUD interface that you can register models with.
10:47:17 <dminuoso_> So it allows for some extremely rapid CRUD interface from a superadmin point of view.
10:47:45 <danse-nr3> exactly. So you can model data while your clients browse that interface and play writing stuff in
10:47:49 <dminuoso_> It certainly beats having to drop into psql to quickly manage data in ways you havent designed a user interface for
10:48:21 <dminuoso_> The thing I just mainly like is that for the most part its abstraction fre.
10:48:26 <dminuoso_> A view? Function that returns a HTTP resposne.
10:48:29 <dminuoso_> It's very functional
10:49:51 <dminuoso_> Django middleware? Exactly the same as a WAI middleware
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10:50:10 <danse-nr3> now something that seems promising to me is the new `mig` library, as it tries to limit abstractions. Too bad they picked such a painful name
10:50:32 <dminuoso_> Which library is that?
10:50:43 <danse-nr3> @hackage mig
10:50:43 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mig
10:50:58 <dminuoso_> Says lightweiht, first dependency aeson.
10:51:03 <dminuoso_> :>
10:51:08 <danse-nr3> it's early stage still
10:51:28 <danse-nr3> not sure which direction will take
10:51:37 <dminuoso_> But seriously, aeson is perhaps my most disliked package of all hackage.
10:51:51 <danse-nr3> arguable statement
10:51:56 <dminuoso_> The dependency list is getting so large, I nearly have to start scrolling.
10:52:43 <dminuoso_> danse-nr3: Id be interested in how you can argue about what I dislike. :-P
10:52:57 <danse-nr3> by overlooking the "my" :P
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10:55:14 <danse-nr3> meh persistent does not even have its own doc hackage.haskell.org/package/persistent-2.14.6.0#readme. With snoyman detaching from haskell, i wonder whether persistent will develop outside yesod well enough
10:55:52 <dminuoso_> Huh, did I miss something? Snoyman is detaching from haskell?
10:56:18 <danse-nr3> i got that impression but i am not very well informed
10:56:49 <dminuoso_> Last I checked he was taking a year off for his kid.
10:57:14 <dminuoso_> But at the end you raise a still relevant point. Much of hackage are in reality just one-man shows.
10:57:37 <dminuoso_> While Haskellers tend to care much better for their packages on average it seems, the bus factor is still a considerable risk.
10:58:29 <danse-nr3> when i went to mainstream into haskell, that was giving me panic. Any library i would like to use seemed super-fragile
10:58:44 <danse-nr3> *from mainstream
10:58:57 <dminuoso_> Honestly, the fragility of packages is much worse in other ecosystems.
10:59:12 <srk> indeed
10:59:17 <danse-nr3> different type of fragile so to speak
10:59:44 <srk> danse-nr3: you can possibly co-maintain some to increase the bus factor
11:00:02 <dminuoso_> danse-nr3: What I found interesting is how sometimes package maintainers build a really fancy facade in other ecosystems.
11:00:56 <danse-nr3> that's why "all ghc features included" is a bad idea, unfortunately still popular srk. What do you mean dminuoso_?
11:01:28 <dminuoso_> If you look at python fastapi, it looks all fancy and very actively developed. But in reality its hanging 600 pull requests behind, is maintained and written by one singular person, and the author has built a machinery that generates so many commits a day, that it looks really really active.
11:01:53 <dminuoso_> But the community perceives the package to be in a good state. Objectively its really not.
11:02:16 <int-e> dminuoso_: "lightweight" is meaningless. You can write a lot of Haskell code before you compete with the size of node.js for example :) (libnode.so is a 46MB shared object here...)
11:02:17 <dminuoso_> The commit count facade is absurd.
11:02:26 <danse-nr3> that's because the trend is for free software development to become a star system
11:02:46 <dminuoso_> int-e: Oh I dont know that, aeson adds 46MiB of ELF symbols to my binary....
11:02:52 <dminuoso_> :-)
11:03:05 <int-e> that you can strip?
11:03:19 <dminuoso_> If you remember to split sections, and are on Linux, and have luck..
11:03:26 <int-e> (also emacs is a lightweight editor. 20 years ago it wasn't.)
11:03:48 <Rembane> danse-nr3: A star system as in having many stars on GitHub?
11:04:14 <danse-nr3> that is a clue about its design, yes
11:04:15 <danse-nr3> which entails unfair resources distribution... something i think i found referred as the "Madonna effect", although i cannot find it on the web anymore. Basically madonna makes a lot of money, while most other singers starve
11:04:20 <int-e> Anyway, my main point is that you need a reference for such claims, and here there is no obvious one. So it's just a fluffy marketing term.
11:04:27 <int-e> "lightweight" that is
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11:30:12 <dminuoso_> int-e: Oh, everything is just fluffy marketing terms. :-P
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11:30:55 <danse-nr3> yeah and they can be useful to state intended design
11:31:25 <dminuoso_> Though if megaparsec being industrial strength means I can run it on embedded controllers in a factory, that wouuld be funny
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11:32:41 <danse-nr3> it just means "serious enough for business/enterprise/buzzword"
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11:38:24 <albet70> why Map can not concat?
11:38:44 <danse-nr3> %t :i Map
11:38:51 <danse-nr3> huh
11:38:55 <danse-nr3> % :i Map
11:38:55 <yahb2> <interactive>:1:1: error: Not in scope: ‘Map’
11:38:56 <albet70> fromList [(1,2)] <> fromList [(1,3)]
11:39:24 <danse-nr3> % import Data.Map
11:39:24 <yahb2> <no output>
11:39:27 <danse-nr3> % :i Map
11:39:27 <yahb2> type role Map nominal representational ; type Map :: * -> * -> * ; data Map k a ; = Data.Map.Internal.Bin {-# UNPACK #-}Data.Map.Internal.Size ; !k ; ...
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11:40:04 <danse-nr3> % :t concat
11:40:04 <yahb2> concat :: Foldable t => t [a] -> [a]
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11:40:33 <dminuoso_> What would concat even do for a map?
11:40:34 <danse-nr3> is Map Foldable albet70?
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11:41:03 <albet70> I don't know
11:41:04 <sshine> dminuoso_, megaparsec is only applicable for some types of welding.
11:41:07 <dminuoso_> Or maybe I misunderstand. Do you expect `concat :: Map (Map k v) -> Map k v`?
11:41:27 <albet70> I mean <>
11:41:37 <danse-nr3> % :t (<>)
11:41:37 <yahb2> (<>) :: Semigroup a => a -> a -> a
11:41:43 <danse-nr3> is Map Semigroup?
11:41:45 <dminuoso_> sshine: : Does that mean megaparsec needs a computer with 3 phase 230V power connection?
11:41:49 <albet70> how to you pronounce <>?
11:41:53 <albet70> ++
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11:41:58 <dminuoso_> albet70: mconcat
11:42:32 <sshine> it's not mappend?
11:42:34 <albet70> can Map do mconcat?
11:42:35 <sshine> :t mappend
11:42:36 <lambdabot> Monoid a => a -> a -> a
11:42:58 <dminuoso_> albet70: check out merge :: Ord k => SimpleWhenMissing k a c -> SimpleWhenMissing k b c -> SimpleWhenMatched k a b c -> Map k a -> Map k b -> Map k c
11:43:35 <albet70> what data is like dict in python?
11:43:36 <dminuoso_> albet70: it needs to be a bit more complicated because there's no clear universal strategy by which to merge two maps that would satisfies everyones expectations.
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11:45:52 <albet70> wait a sec, tuple list like [(1,2)] can concat, but Map can not?
11:46:25 <danse-nr3> what is unclear about what dminuoso_ just wrote?
11:47:07 <albet70> Map is a monad?
11:47:27 <danse-nr3> use `:i Map` in ghci to find out
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11:52:43 <sshine> albet70, Data.HashMap is kind of like Python's dict.
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11:54:55 <__monty__> <> is mappend, yeah, not mconcat. Don't think the latter has an operator form?
11:55:36 <sshine> a <(° °)︵> b
11:56:01 <__monty__> I like it, let's put it in the Prelude.
11:56:36 <sshine> {-# LANGUAGE KawaiiOperators #-}
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12:04:13 <dminuoso_> :t mconcat
12:04:14 <lambdabot> Monoid a => [a] -> a
12:04:25 <dminuoso_> __monty__: The number of arguments would be a one reason why there is no operator form.
12:04:39 <dminuoso_> (Sadly? Luckily?) we dont have the freedom of idris operators.
12:05:27 <__monty__> You're right, unary minus is already enough of a thorn. Where's my (- x) operator slice?!
12:05:32 __monty__ shakes his fist
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12:54:18 <albet70> danse-nr3 , Map is not Monad? there's no instance of Monad
12:55:12 <albet70> sshine , Data.HashMap does not come with ghc?
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12:56:43 <dminuoso_> albet70: Mmm, so containers is a boot library. That means a GHC installation will come with that package pre-installed.
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12:57:03 <dminuoso_> However, HashMap is not from `containers` but from `unordered-containers`
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13:06:39 <albet70> Map [String] ByteString is ok?
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13:33:41 <kuribas> dminuoso_: do you mean overloading of operators in idris?
13:33:59 <dminuoso_> kuribas: Sorry I actually meant Agda.
13:34:08 <kuribas> right
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13:34:51 <dminuoso_> Its perhaps the coolest trick that `if_then_else_` is not a builtin magic syntactic construct, but a user definable function.
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13:46:23 <albet70> is Chan better than MVar? I have two thread share one variable, one is read-only, one is write-only, which should I use? since there're lots of IO at the same time, which should I use?
13:46:54 <dminuoso_> Is a screwdriver better than a hammer?
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13:47:02 <dminuoso_> At some tasks certainly.
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13:50:44 <albet70> is MVar efficient? takeMVar and putMVar is enough when lots of IO at the same time?
13:51:23 <dminuoso_> Profile your code and tell for yourself if its efficient enough.
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13:56:01 <albet70> let c = aMap ! k; let a = g c; let b f c; is better than let a = g (aMap ! k); let b = f (aMap ! k); ? more efficient?
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14:21:45 <albet70> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/containers-0.7/docs/Data-Map-Strict.html#v:-60--62-
14:21:57 <albet70> Map do have mappend, but why it's not like list?
14:22:39 <albet70> Semigroup have sconcat function
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14:24:40 <danse-nr3> % :t sconcat
14:24:40 <yahb2> <interactive>:1:1: error: ; • Variable not in scope: sconcat ; • Perhaps you meant one of these: ; ‘mconcat’ (imported from Prelude), ‘concat’ (imported from Prelude)
14:24:59 <danse-nr3> % :t mappend
14:24:59 <yahb2> mappend :: Monoid a => a -> a -> a
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14:26:22 <danse-nr3> not sure i understand the "why it is not like list" question. Every instance is a different specialisation, following rules
14:26:27 <albet70> semigroup need mappend, monoid need mempty and mappend
14:27:14 <dminuoso_> albet70: For the same reason that an airplane moves differently from cars. Different things behave differently. Expecting (Map k) to behave like [] is like expecting a Car to behave like an Airplane.
14:27:49 <danse-nr3> yet they do behave the same, for what the class definition is concerned
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14:30:38 <kuribas> I am doing some meta programming in Python using type annotations, but man, meta-programming in haskell or idris is so much easier.
14:31:05 <kuribas> People who say Python is easy only know superfical python IMO.
14:31:31 <kuribas> I think Python is easy because it just pushes complexity under the rug.
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14:32:12 <kuribas> haskell and idris are difficult because they make you deal with it right away.
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14:33:18 <danse-nr3> nah, python does a good job at avoiding unnecessary complexity, but is still object-oriented. Therefore people used to object-oriented dumbness find it easier than changing paradigm
14:33:31 <[exa]> danse-nr3: did you read "The Zen of Python" ?
14:33:43 <kuribas> danse-nr3: I am talking about necessary complexity.
14:33:57 <[exa]> danse-nr3: (you can show it by `import this` in any python version afaik)
14:33:57 <danse-nr3> huh i think so, long time ago [exa]
14:34:18 <kuribas> But IMO Python has a lot of unnecessary complexity. Just look at pydantic for validation.
14:35:14 <[exa]> danse-nr3: it's got this "explicit is better than implicit", which totally went up in smoke
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14:35:45 <[exa]> that alone is the biggest problem of python, people assume implicit-ness and hiding of complexity is OK
14:35:54 <danse-nr3> *shrug*
14:35:56 <[exa]> (instead of taming the complexity down using proper tools)
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14:36:42 <danse-nr3> go to java or c# or whatever you like then
14:38:27 <[exa]> ah wait might have mishighlighted.. kuribas ^^ :D
14:38:38 <albet70> what cabal take the package? I saw someone fix a patch on github, but the cabal still use the old package
14:38:54 <albet70> where
14:39:01 <[exa]> albet70: from hackage
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14:39:18 <[exa]> albet70: https://hackage.haskell.org/
14:39:45 <[exa]> albet70: but you can clone the package from github, put the path to it into your `cabal.project` config, and play with the fixed version from github
14:40:03 <albet70> and do hacakge take from github? if the source is from github? and how long it will retrieve?
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14:40:26 <[exa]> albet70: someone needs to manually versionbump and push it there
14:40:31 <[exa]> usually the maintainer
14:41:18 <[exa]> which package is it? (just curious)
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14:41:56 <albet70> [exa] , scotty-tls
14:42:42 <[exa]> ok that didn't get uploaded for quite some time
14:43:58 <albet70> there's a patch for scotty-tls in 2020, since warps-tls removed certFile and keyFile, scotty-tls is patched on 2020, but cabal doesn't install the patched-version
14:44:35 <danse-nr3> see the method [exa] mentioned above about installing your local checkout
14:45:05 <dmj`> albet70: I merged it
14:45:26 <[exa]> ah here we go. :]
14:45:33 <danse-nr3> v
14:45:40 <albet70> today I fixed it again, and suddently I found someone fixed it on 2020...
14:46:51 <albet70> but cabal still install the un-patched version...
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16:11:20 <carbolymer> is there a maybe wrapper `Biggest a` for `Ord a` things?
16:12:11 <c_wraith> There's Data.Semigroup.Max
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16:14:47 <carbolymer> `Max (Maybe a)` should be what I need, thanks c_wraith
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16:46:04 <c_wraith> carbolymer: you might prefer `Maybe (Max a)`. I think it has the better Monoid instance.
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17:36:40 <ephemient> certainly `Min (Maybe a)` likely doesn't have the behavior you want
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18:11:27 <Joao003> Serious discussion: Do you chain functions like `putStrLn . show $ 1' or `putStrLn $ show $ 1'?
18:11:51 <monochrom> I use f . g
18:12:08 <monochrom> In fact, (f . g) x, screw $
18:12:28 <Joao003> Nah, no brackets looks prettier
18:12:40 <Joao003> I do f . g $ x
18:12:55 <monochrom> Unpopular opinion: Brackets look prettier.
18:13:44 <Joao003> But sometimes they get too much nesting
18:13:58 <monochrom> I don't always go "(f . g) x". I start with "f (g x)" and until I have like 4 functions instead of 2 I feel no need to split hair on this.
18:14:50 <Joao003> Instead of f x = g . h $ x I do f = g . h, the so called eta-reduction
18:15:05 <exarkun> by itself, `(f . g) x` and `f . g $ x` mean the same thing - but once you're in a bigger context, they don't necessarily
18:15:11 <Joao003> Yes
18:16:02 <Joao003> Brackets have max precedence while ($) has min precedence
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18:16:04 <exarkun> so I think eta reduction, $, and () are all fine sometimes (and use them all)
18:16:19 <Joao003> Yes
18:16:31 <exarkun> much to the annoyance of my learning-haskell-coworkers who wish there were exactly one way to do everything
18:16:58 <exarkun> (and sometimes one way to do two things, too)
18:17:13 <Joao003> Yesterday I learned: Some named functions (like `div`) actually have infix precedence and association
18:19:14 <exarkun> (foo `isPrefixOf` bar) much nicer than (isPrefixOf foo bar) for many people
18:19:21 <Joao003> yes
18:19:26 <Joao003> and it makes more sense
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18:20:39 <Joao003> @check \f x -> (==) (f $ x) $ id f x
18:20:41 <lambdabot> +++ OK, passed 100 tests.
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18:41:35 <monochrom> One way to do two things isn't bad. It drives unified theories and abstractions.
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18:41:56 <monochrom> But wanting that for mere syntax is superficial.
18:45:31 <monochrom> Perhaps it's human greed. I want to get paid. And yet if there is one single way to do everything, I no longer have any responsibility.
18:48:34 <EvanR> putStrLn (show 1)
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18:48:50 <EvanR> (ignoring print 1 for the sake of argument)
18:49:45 <EvanR> in non throw away code I will sometimes factor out a . chain into its own function then apply it (or not) elsewhere
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18:51:54 <hc> What does wanting to get paid have to do with being greedy? I thought greedy was a property of the kleene star
18:52:44 <EvanR> your code wants to get paid, so use $ syntax
18:53:20 <idgaen> :D
18:53:56 <monochrom> You need to read the whole sentence. The conjunction of getting paid and bearing zero responsibility.
18:55:05 <monochrom> Compared to other people, programmers are surprisingly context-free.
18:56:08 <int-e> what are you talking about
18:56:41 <monochrom> haha
18:57:13 hc is even regular most of the time
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19:04:50 <EvanR> in f . g . h $ x, oop brain might read this as x dot h dot g dot f, i.e. do dot h first. But this is haskell. So it actually says f . (g . (h $ x)), and applying caveman understanding of laziness, the f . ( is evaluated first. I wonder if this could be exploited to get the same results as oop without changing the order xD
19:07:21 <monochrom> I think OOP people would be OK with "x & h & g & f" modulo s/&/./
19:07:39 <EvanR> yeah that's not a dot at all
19:07:55 <EvanR> period.
19:08:19 <monochrom> But hey both & and . are user-definable library functions. One can simply load an alternative prelude.
19:08:37 <d34df00d> I like my . to do string concatenation.
19:08:39 <d34df00d> PHP FTW
19:09:08 <exarkun> is there some good reason hlint tells me to use mapAndUnzipM when I use `unzip <$> mapM ...`? I see that mapAndUnzipM uses traverse, not mapM, and the implementation talks about fusion ... ?
19:09:14 <monochrom> But haha on the pun on "period".
19:10:17 <monochrom> Do you take "author of hlint likes it this way" as a reason? ("reason")
19:10:41 <monochrom> Because it is an open secret that that's the real reason.
19:10:49 <exarkun> It's a reason, yes, but not a good one :)
19:10:56 <tomsmeding> there's a variety of lints in hlint that are basically subjective style
19:10:57 <exarkun> I know a lot of hlints are like that.
19:11:09 <tomsmeding> (also a number of hints that have separate good reasons behind them)
19:11:19 <monochrom> It is just very confusing that 70% of his preference aligns with most of ours so it looks like rational rather than personal.
19:11:51 <exarkun> I rewrote my expression to be `unzip <$> traverse ...` instead and it stopped bugging me. `mapAndUnzipM` seems like an obscure combination of things, I don't feel like using it.
19:12:36 <monochrom> Related to how someone who consistently always lies is not untrustworthy (recall those crossroad sentinel logic puzzles). It is those who tell the truth 90% of the time and lie 10% of the time that are truly treacherous.
19:14:04 <exarkun> Is someone working on a version of hlint that is either 100% wrong or 100% right then? :)
19:14:22 <tomsmeding> you could write your own hints file
19:14:26 <exarkun> true
19:14:48 tomsmeding is not sure how much of hlint's hints are specified in a separate file and how much is hard-coded
19:15:08 <tomsmeding> I guess you can at least _disable_ any you don't like
19:15:18 <[exa]> someone experienced with haskell-gi (aka the gtk bindings) ? I'm getting: `gobject-2.0>=2.32, not found in the pkg-config database` error on cabal configure, but my `kg-config gobject-2.0 --modversion` clearly says 2.78.0 ... any good place to start looking at/fixing?
19:15:20 tomsmeding doesn't use hlint at all, it's one of the first things that gets disabled on a new machine with HLS
19:15:33 <monochrom> Warning: You wrote f x. Why not (do y <- f; pure y) x.
19:15:47 <tomsmeding> lol
19:16:08 <tomsmeding> [exa]: have you tried 'cabal configure --verbose'?
19:16:45 <tomsmeding> oh wait, pkg-config and cabal, that verbose output is going to be useless
19:16:57 <tomsmeding> can someone fix the cabal solver to call pkg-config lazily already
19:17:05 <tomsmeding> to hell with purity
19:17:20 <[exa]> what's the problem there
19:17:33 <tomsmeding> cabal first calls pkg-config --modversion with the entire database of packages (which takes, like, _seconds_)
19:17:43 <tomsmeding> then pkg-config errors because there are a few packages on the system with missing dependencies
19:17:47 <tomsmeding> so no output
19:17:59 <tomsmeding> so then cabal invokes pkg-config once for each package on the system
19:18:03 <tomsmeding> which takes some more seconds
19:18:08 <tomsmeding> and then it actually starts doing cabal stuff
19:18:12 tomsmeding is annoyed
19:19:37 <monochrom> I am sure the following is a joke but it sounds like if you just make a PR that merely adds an "unsafeInterleaveIO" somewhere, it will fix this issue. >:)
19:19:53 <tomsmeding> [exa]: perhaps the cabal --verbose output does show the exact pkg-config invocation; something like 'pkg-config --modversion "gobject-2.0>=2.32"' is not valid pkg-config syntax but I'd see cabal doing that
19:20:15 <tomsmeding> monochrom: people have suggested that, but cabal maintainers aren't happy about introducing more impurity into the solver
19:20:28 <tomsmeding> which, like, I get the point
19:20:30 <[exa]> omigoood
19:20:31 <tomsmeding> but ._.
19:20:55 <[exa]> can we pls apply some minor pythons here
19:20:58 <[exa]> and just ignore the error
19:21:06 <tomsmeding> what's happening
19:21:07 <tomsmeding> ?
19:21:21 <tomsmeding> oh, pkg-config not printing anything if an error happens?
19:21:30 <[exa]> yeah, I strac'd instead
19:21:43 <tomsmeding> I mean, the point of invoking pkg-config is that you want all the packages that you ask for
19:21:52 <tomsmeding> if some of them are broken, the idea is kind of that the call fails
19:22:05 <tomsmeding> it's cabal that is weird in asking for ALL packages before it knows what it actually needs
19:22:36 <[exa]> ok well at least it told me which .pc files to nuke :D
19:22:51 <tomsmeding> be careful, they might belong to system packages
19:22:52 <exarkun> why is it doing that? so that it can consult that single consistent (supposedly?) result ever after, instead of making repeated calls that might give different answers?
19:22:58 <tomsmeding> yes
19:23:34 <tomsmeding> but if you cache your unsafePerformIO pkg-config calls, you get the same consistency
19:23:36 <exarkun> does anyone think the output of a single pkg-config invocation for multiple packages is self-consistent? or is the hope just that the window for the race condition is much smaller that way
19:23:38 <tomsmeding> without the madness
19:23:46 <tomsmeding> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
19:24:04 <tomsmeding> it's a good argument though
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19:24:10 <tomsmeding> against the current madness, that is
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19:25:18 <[exa]> like, on some certain systems with hyperactive package management I guess I can kinda understand it
19:25:37 <[exa]> ok booom, there we go
19:25:39 <[exa]> thanks all!
19:25:52 <[exa]> the error was literally missing .pc dependency files
19:26:02 <[exa]> I should probably report this to distro
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19:26:20 <tomsmeding> for gobject-2.0?
19:26:54 <[exa]> no, for something entirely unrelated
19:27:00 <[exa]> (xfce4ui-2)
19:27:00 <tomsmeding> that should not trip up cabal
19:27:13 <[exa]> yeah but it's a distro bug anyway
19:27:14 <tomsmeding> it makes the big call fail, but then cabal falls back to package-per-package calls
19:27:31 <tomsmeding> some of those failing is fine, cabal should not care about those and just consider those broken packages not existing
19:27:39 <tomsmeding> so removing unrelated .pc files should not fix your issue
19:27:49 <[exa]> it did
19:27:55 <[exa]> (same as installing the missing ones)
19:28:10 <tomsmeding> ... what cabal version is that? Did it do the package-by-package thing?
19:28:33 <tomsmeding> my complaint is that cabal's approach to pkg-config is horrendously slow, not that it's incorrect
19:28:33 <[exa]> btw the big pkgconfig call didn't fail (that works), just some of the smaller ones did
19:29:02 <[exa]> cabal 3.8.1 btw
19:29:07 <tomsmeding> weird?
19:29:19 <tomsmeding> I have a permanently broken pkg-config database because arrch
19:29:26 tomsmeding is going to leave that typo in
19:29:33 <tomsmeding> distro policy
19:29:38 <tomsmeding> cabal works fine for me, it's just slow
19:30:54 <tomsmeding> exarkun: https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/8930#issuecomment-1744798180 and the message by andreabedini two down
19:33:16 <exarkun> also really tempting to think about how expensive it would be to discover and parse all of the .pc files natively with haskell instead of calling pkg-config at all ... probably extremely cheap at runtime, and maybe periodically very expensive when you discover some bizarre quick of pkg-config that you forgot to support on some obscure platform
19:33:26 <exarkun> s/quick/quirk/
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19:34:56 <tomsmeding> cheap at runtime?
19:35:04 <tomsmeding> I have 1525 .pc files
19:35:19 <tomsmeding> pkg-config only takes a few seconds because this is an nvme drive
19:35:53 <exarkun> I barely need three hands to count to 1525
19:36:15 <monochrom> I have a feeling we are on the verge of a breakthrough that reinvents autoconf.
19:36:22 <exarkun> :)
19:38:00 <[exa]> c'mon no one is going to repeat m4 as EDSL, right [padmeface.gif]
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19:38:29 <tomsmeding> dnl no
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19:44:24 <monochrom> Haha I see why 3 hands for 1525. OTOH (pun!) it reminds me of an exercise in CLRS about randomized programming.
19:45:42 tomsmeding does not get the joke and is sad
19:45:48 <monochrom> Fix an increase sequence of naturals but it must start with 0, e.g., A = [0, 2, 4, 15, 100, ...]
19:46:30 <monochrom> OK 2 hands is only 10 bits, not enough for 1500ish. 3 hands is enough (and more).
19:46:39 <exarkun> not _so_ funny :)
19:46:56 <monochrom> And my pun? OTOHand...
19:47:53 <monochrom> Continuing... Have a mutable variable initialized to 0.
19:49:22 <monochrom> Have this procedure "increment": With probability 1/(A[current val + 1] - A[current val]), increase the variable by 1. (No change in the other case.)
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19:49:54 <monochrom> Theorem: After calling increment n times, E(A[final val]) = n.
19:50:29 <tomsmeding> % let factor 1 = [] ; factor n = let d = head [k | k <- [2..n], n `mod` k == 0] in d : factor (n `div` d) in factor 1525
19:50:29 <yahb2> [5,5,61]
19:50:45 <monochrom> So the variables uses only a few bits to count up to a huge number but it's a probabilistic estimation.
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23:54:02 <prasad> Hi I am trying to parse a string "1 2 3 4 | 9 5 6 7" into ([Int], [Int]) tuple. But facing a issue unidentified character | found. If I remove the space between 4 & "|" and 9 and "|" it works here is my code. https://paste.tomsmeding.com/88Ndzrxh I guess the extra space is causing the issue but I am not able to figure out how to fix it
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23:55:51 <monochrom> 1. Amend integerParser to slurp trailing spaces. Perhaps: (read <$> many1 digit) <* many space
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23:56:08 <monochrom> 2. Likewise, Amend "char '|'" to slurp trailing spaces.
23:57:16 <monochrom> 0. Have a top-level parser that slurps leading spaces, e.g., many space *> listParser.
23:57:56 <monochrom> That is the general idomatic strategy for dealing with whitespace-insensitive syntax.
23:58:02 <dminuoso_> The general idiom is to have a `token :: Parser a -> Parser a` kind of parser that always consumes either leading or trailing whitespace.
23:59:13 <dminuoso_> And then define your token parsers (in the sense of a lexer/tokenizer) in terms of that combinator.

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