Logs on 2023-12-20 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 13:37:33 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> what kind of magic is happening for `Data.List.sort`??? I copied the source and testing it side-by-side, `Data.List.sort` is ~10x faster than "itself" |
| 13:38:09 | <mauke> | which source did you copy? |
| 13:38:40 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> the one hoogle pointed me to at https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.0.0/docs/src/Data.OldList.html#sort |
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| 13:41:14 | <mauke> | yeah, I don't see any magic there |
| 13:41:26 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> me neither, that's why I'm confused |
| 13:41:39 | <mauke> | did you compile with optimizations? |
| 13:43:00 | <Inst> | do you mind if I ask a basic programming question? |
| 13:43:09 | <Inst> | The difference between programming and other occupations, imo, is that you automate SO much |
| 13:43:25 | <Inst> | At least as an amateur, it seems most programming is about learning how to do a process, doing the process, then automating the process in the future |
| 13:43:26 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> mauke: I think that's it ... should have thought of that |
| 13:43:45 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> how do I time it outside of ghci though? |
| 13:43:51 | <Inst> | There isn't a lot of exercise, it seems sa though it's about how quickly you can learn a framework etc, or how quickly you can think up a solution to a problem |
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| 13:51:43 | <kuribas> | Inst: and how much time you'll spend in the future maintaining it. |
| 13:52:02 | <kuribas> | Sadly most people these time want to have quick solutions, but don't even consider maintainability. |
| 13:52:15 | <kuribas> | Which is why python and javascript are so popular. |
| 13:52:21 | <kuribas> | They give instant gratification. |
| 13:56:48 | <Inst> | It's Haskell culture that denies Haskell giving instant gratification, for the most part, I don't think Haskell is that hard |
| 13:58:24 | <kuribas> | Sure, and being pedantic doesn't help beginners. |
| 13:58:51 | <kuribas> | It's ok to make your first programs in IO using do notation, as long as you are aware that there may be more idiomatic ways. |
| 13:59:00 | <kuribas> | Just get shit done, and learn along the way. |
| 13:59:28 | <Inst> | the challenge is preserving Haskell culture while making it accessible to beginners, as I've said before, I think Haskell culture is wonderful |
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| 13:59:39 | <kuribas> | It's likely the academic roots. |
| 14:00:12 | <kuribas> | But as a way of programming, just thinking about what you are solving, then making it more elegant through program rewriting, is a nice way to work IMO. |
| 14:00:50 | <Inst> | thank you ben gamari for updating https://hackage.haskell.org/package/html-parse |
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| 14:01:12 | <kuribas> | I am sure most software (in any language) would be improved if people just focus on what they are solving, not on making all kinds of constructions around it. |
| 14:01:35 | <Inst> | I guess the method suits me, i.e, learn stuff, think the problem over, then in a span of hours, write the code, as opposed to bash my head in repeatedly |
| 14:01:49 | <Inst> | it's more fun this way, lots of prep, fast cooking, as opposed to prodding the chicken over and over again |
| 14:01:52 | <juri_> | you forgot write tests. |
| 14:02:09 | <juri_> | but that's ok, most developers fail to test. :) |
| 14:02:30 | <kuribas> | I need to fetch data from a dataservice, then do some calculations on it, ok then just do that. Not make a "datafetcher abstract class", create a pipelined calculator service, blah blah bullshit. |
| 14:03:05 | <kuribas> | juri_: I hardly write tests, and my code is way more robust that much "production" code I've seen with full test suites. |
| 14:03:07 | <Inst> | but the Haskell version is, learn the freaking libraries used for that |
| 14:03:12 | <Inst> | someone talked me into going into Haskell streaming |
| 14:03:29 | <Inst> | i'd aim to stream libraries, small projects using the libraries, etc |
| 14:03:35 | <kuribas> | Inst: well, first you solve it yourself, then you run into a wall, then you look for a relevant library :) |
| 14:03:54 | <Inst> | i guess that's why you have 8+ years more experience than me |
| 14:04:04 | <kuribas> | If you don't run into a wall, then you may not need that library. |
| 14:05:18 | <Inst> | the current project is scraping (with permission) a website's data, on the tune of multiple TB |
| 14:05:31 | <Inst> | should I be doing this by hand, especially since my knowledge of http is shoddy? |
| 14:05:31 | <kuribas> | Inst: yeah, my *experience* showed me that most of those "solutions" follow the same pattern. Identify the problem, isolate the low level manipultations, and make an algebra out of it. |
| 14:05:56 | <kuribas> | Inst: you mean html? |
| 14:06:02 | <kuribas> | No, use a scraper library. |
| 14:06:03 | <Inst> | http, http-client rather |
| 14:06:07 | <Inst> | yeah duh |
| 14:06:11 | <kuribas> | tagsoup? |
| 14:06:29 | <Inst> | i'm hooking http-client / http-client-tls together with gamari's html-parse |
| 14:06:36 | <Inst> | since scalpel doesn't allow me to hook auth cookies in |
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| 14:09:45 | <ski> | "being pedantic doesn't help beginners" -- i think it definitely can, depending |
| 14:10:48 | <Inst> | i think it's important to be able to think in terms of values and types as soon as possible, and to be able to read type signatures |
| 14:11:04 | <ski> | yes |
| 14:11:50 | <ski> | also being able to "follow the types", doing basic type inference in your head, can be very useful, at times |
| 14:11:51 | <kuribas> | ski: well... yes, but not everything at once. |
| 14:11:56 | <ski> | yes |
| 14:12:35 | <ski> | getting fundamental distinctions in place, can help dispel various initial confusion |
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| 14:17:54 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> either I did something wrong and I'm gonna feel stupid or I improved `Data.List.sort` by like 1.5x? |
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| 14:18:40 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> where are you supposed to paste large messages? |
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| 14:21:33 | <Inst> | paste.tomsmeding.com |
| 14:21:42 | <Inst> | also, if it's ghci, ghci benchmarking is highly unreliable |
| 14:21:43 | <Inst> | no optimizations on |
| 14:22:51 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> no, I used `criterion` with optimizations and 7 different list sizes and randomized input |
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| 14:29:42 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/hmklD1c8 these are the benchmarks with various sizes and random inputs |
| 14:30:03 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> it looks like a 1.5-2x improvement |
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| 14:55:39 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> I added another optimization step but that only increased it marginally, but imo still pretty well. It seems to be more than 2x better in some cases but I'm not super sure about that. |
| 14:55:39 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> What it does is super simple and unless I overlooked something does not break anything? It might change the stability, but if it does it should be easy to adjust for that? |
| 14:55:40 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> The current implementation is just mergesort but it prescans increasing and decreasing sequences to optimize. |
| 14:55:41 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> What I did is simply add a three and four way merge which seem to improve the performance by up to 2x. The implementation is here, so please tell me if I overlooked something lol, I feel like I probably did. https://paste.tomsmeding.com/KYlkdbg2 |
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| 15:52:08 | <Inst> | is opaleye generally considered unusable? |
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| 16:07:31 | <danse-nr3> | huh how comes? |
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| 17:03:48 | <Inst> | opaleye it turns out is an sql generator |
| 17:03:51 | <Inst> | i was looking for something strictly typed |
| 17:04:16 | <Inst> | does anyone use postgresql-simple here? |
| 17:04:20 | <Inst> | I'm having difficulty connecting to things |
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| 19:37:17 | <monochrom> | Inst: https://dev.to/zelenya/how-to-use-postgresql-with-haskell-elephantine-library-review-2023-2836 reviews a whole lot of Haskell-postgresql libraries covering a lot of the design space. |
| 19:38:04 | <Inst> | thank you so much monochrom |
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| 20:35:55 | <haskellbridge> | 12<Celestial> re: faster sort, I opened an issue here https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/24280 |
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| 21:38:36 | <Inst> | not sure if anyone is on, but why does it seem that I can only insert 60 items at a time into a table? |
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| 23:21:17 | <Axman6> | Inst: maybe you should've bought a bigger table? Have you tried placing them on it? |
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| 23:32:43 | <Inst> | Axman6: it was an issue with the network element, I was looking at the wrong URL |
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