Logs on 2023-12-28 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:23:40 | <haskellbridge> | 04<oak> In the past year I've worked with a client writing Nix code everyday, we also considered using Guix at some point. But the quick glance at Guix looks like it's "lessons learned" from Nix and they try to do better in the core technological choices. It's just "a bit too GNU-style project", and you need to separately add non-guix. Then politically it is hard because talking about |
| 00:23:41 | <haskellbridge> | non-guix in offic… |
| 00:23:41 | <haskellbridge> | 04<oak> ial guix channels is considered a "hate speech" |
| 00:25:49 | <haskellbridge> | 04<oak> Some core parts of Nix/NixOS are quite horrible or they have lot of tecnhological debt in some of the core nixosModules. They are not so much usable to the everyday NixOS user, but when you want to start to strip off the stuff from the base system, it gets quite hard |
| 00:26:07 | <haskellbridge> | 04<oak> s/usable/visible |
| 00:28:58 | <geekosaur> | there's been some discussion of nix in -offtopic, the innards sound kinda horrid |
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| 00:34:26 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> presumably nix fans should be helping nickel.. ? |
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| 00:34:39 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> it sounded like a way forward |
| 00:35:09 | <exarkun> | There isn't really agreement abut which direction is foreward |
| 00:35:49 | <exarkun> | Nix core hasn't managed to scale development to match the size of the community |
| 00:35:59 | <yushyin> | but it is not nickel ... |
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| 01:02:56 | <haskellbridge> | 05<irregularsphere> I'm wondering, if RealWorld is magical, what does a non-bottom value _look_ like? |
| 01:03:59 | <haskellbridge> | 05<irregularsphere> Ah nevermind there's none |
| 01:04:36 | <geekosaur> | RealWorld isn't even very magical |
| 01:05:15 | <haskellbridge> | 05<irregularsphere> The documentation says so |
| 01:05:27 | <haskellbridge> | 05<irregularsphere> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.0.0/docs/GHC-Exts.html#t:RealWorld |
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| 01:06:27 | <haskellbridge> | 05<irregularsphere> Yea just realized I was looking at *data* RealWorld, not a type declaration |
| 01:06:37 | <haskellbridge> | 05<irregularsphere> what was I thinking |
| 01:07:04 | <haskellbridge> | 05<irregularsphere> i mean it's all that type declaration* |
| 01:07:23 | <haskellbridge> | 05<irregularsphere> does the bridge handle redactions well? |
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| 01:07:44 | <geekosaur> | it doesn't do edits or deletes |
| 01:08:09 | <geekosaur> | edits just echo the edited line, deletes are ignored because IRC doesn't have history |
| 01:09:02 | <geekosaur> | afaik the only magic is (1) `runRW#` and (2) its size is zero so it gets dropped during code generation |
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| 01:15:12 | <int-e> | But "it" isn't `RealWorld`, it's `State# s` (where it doesn't really matter whether s = RealWorld or not) |
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| 01:21:55 | <monochrom> | Technically, "magical" just means the compiler has hardcoded special treatment. But the special treatment can still be trivial. |
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| 01:30:39 | <geekosaur> | it says "deeply magical". afaik all the deep magic now lives in runRW# |
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| 02:19:54 | <Lycurgus> | what does deletes? |
| 02:20:31 | <Lycurgus> | or 'redactions' |
| 02:20:45 | <Lycurgus> | other than ppl |
| 02:21:04 | <geekosaur> | matrix and discord support editing and deleting messages |
| 02:21:15 | <Lycurgus> | i c |
| 02:21:15 | <geekosaur> | the bridge is to matrix |
| 02:21:53 | <Lycurgus> | do some channels turn that off? |
| 02:22:12 | <Lycurgus> | sounds 1984ish |
| 02:22:42 | <geekosaur> | I don't think so |
| 02:23:17 | <geekosaur> | in any case IRC doesn't support them so nothing happens when the bridge receives them |
| 02:24:18 | <Lycurgus> | it's appropriate to a transcript but not to live dialog |
| 02:25:34 | <Lycurgus> | transcript/captioning |
| 02:26:06 | <Lycurgus> | in real time |
| 02:26:43 | <geekosaur> | as to 1984, there are more 1984ish features than that, like server-side persistent history |
| 02:27:03 | <geekosaur> | that, at least, can be disabled |
| 02:27:14 | <Lycurgus> | well that was winstons job at minitruth |
| 02:33:52 | <geekosaur> | most people can only edit or deletee their own messages. moderators can do it to any message, but at least in the rooms I'm in it's reserved for spam |
| 02:34:38 | <geekosaur> | other rooms may operate under different rules, but yeh no, nobody made me god so I only moderate obvious spam |
| 02:38:20 | <haskellbridge> | 06<sm> clients like Element normally show when a message has been edited, and the full history of edits. So not quite like 1984. I find it a godsend for fixing my (and tools') content flaws |
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| 03:03:31 | Lycurgus | looks forward to macrodata refinement |
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| 10:03:55 | <haskellbridge> | 15<Jade> The way I understand the "magic" of `RealWorld` is that it's a dummy value so the compiler doesn't reorder things that are in IO |
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| 10:10:39 | <c_wraith> | Jade: It has some other properties that used to be unique - it compiles down to a zero-size representation at runtime, for instance. That's no longer unique, as GHC finally added ways to defined types like that for your own uses, but for a long time it was special. |
| 10:12:27 | <haskellbridge> | 15<Jade> ah interesting, thank you |
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| 10:24:32 | <causal> | how rough is binding to c/cpp in haskell land? |
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| 11:09:50 | <mauke> | causal: C is pretty nice.I haven't tried C++ yet |
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| 12:57:10 | <sshine> | causal, it depends, but initially it can be simple; https://wiki.haskell.org/Foreign_Function_Interface |
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| 13:18:13 | <haskellbridge> | 15<Jade> I'm starting to appreciate `ReaderT` at the moment |
| 13:18:47 | <haskellbridge> | 15<Jade> it's such a cool pattern which makes carrying state throughout the application so much easier |
| 13:19:04 | <haskellbridge> | 15<Jade> I'm also starting to grasp the underlying concepts of monad transformers and such which is really cool |
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| 13:34:23 | <haskellbridge> | 14<mauke> We had ReaderT in C, but we called it a "function parameter" |
| 13:34:48 | <__monty__> | Constant state? |
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| 13:37:39 | <haskellbridge> | 14<mauke> const struct context *ctx |
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| 13:48:02 | <haskellbridge> | 15<Jade> yeah but it's an implicit parameter which makes it cool :P |
| 13:48:11 | <haskellbridge> | 15<Jade> or rather a parameter that's hidden but still there |
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| 14:34:36 | <haskellbridge> | 15<Jade> uhhh, when using `gi-*` bindings do you have to free/manage memory? |
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| 14:37:55 | <exarkun> | How do I do this polymorphic return thing? https://gist.github.com/exarkun/77622a77b8ba98b78882939554f39c6f |
| 14:41:04 | <exarkun> | I see how I could get rid of the Action class and just have a sum type. But is that the only path? I just want to expose the Cls instance to the caller, the different types involved don't otherwise matter |
| 14:42:01 | <trev> | should i use GHC.Arr or Data.Array (hidden)? |
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| 14:47:02 | <Rembane> | exarkun: I would use a sum type but that's not very exciting and won't give you the extensibility you might seek? |
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| 14:49:21 | <Rembane> | exarkun: Is there any specific reason for why you want to use type classes? |
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| 14:50:23 | <exarkun> | no particular reason I want to use type classes, but I was hoping to avoid making a centralized ever-growing sum type |
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| 14:51:21 | <exarkun> | (as much to understand the extent to which this is possible as for any practical purpose) |
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| 14:56:18 | <Rembane> | exarkun: There's a paper called something with Tagless Final Encoding that handles that but the code looks funny. Lets see if I can find the paper because I believe it describes how to do the same thing using GADTs too. |
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| 14:58:04 | <Rembane> | I thoght this was easier to understand than it seems now. https://okmij.org/ftp/tagless-final/JFP.pdf |
| 14:58:31 | <Rembane> | This is a bit easier to get through: https://serokell.io/blog/introduction-tagless-final |
| 15:01:18 | <Rembane> | This also seems interesting in this context: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/zx8ycc/extensible_asts_with_extensible_types/ |
| 15:01:48 | <exarkun> | nice, thank you |
| 15:02:36 | <[Leary]> | exarkun: It sounds like you want an existential, e.g. `data Some cls where Some :: cls a => a -> Some cls`. You can also encode it with a polymorphic continuation: `load :: String -> (forall c. Cls c => c -> r) -> Maybe r`. |
| 15:07:10 | <exarkun> | [Leary]: is the casing of all of the cls variables in that example correct? in particular, `cls a => ...` looks like a new thing to me |
| 15:08:58 | <[Leary]> | Yes, it's correct. You could hard-code `Cls` there, but it's fine to take a `* -> Constraint` parameter instead. |
| 15:09:21 | <boxscape_> | If I activate any GHC plugin for my project, even a plugin that does nothing, it takes an additional 30 seconds or so at the beginning and end of the compilation process, regardless of how much is being compiled. Is that normal? |
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| 16:05:47 | <boxscape_> | Ah, interestingly it only happens in Windows, if I compile in WSL this doesn't happen |
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| 21:30:20 | <TMA> | :t ($) |
| 21:30:21 | <lambdabot> | (a -> b) -> a -> b |
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| 22:05:00 | <waldo> | :t (<<) |
| 22:05:01 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 22:05:01 | <lambdabot> | • Variable not in scope: << |
| 22:05:01 | <lambdabot> | • Perhaps you meant one of these: |
| 22:06:17 | <waldo> | this bot is a disgrace |
| 22:06:52 | <enikar> | :t (>>) |
| 22:06:53 | <lambdabot> | Monad m => m a -> m b -> m b |
| 22:07:15 | <geekosaur> | why? (<<) doesn't exist |
| 22:07:28 | <waldo> | shouldn't it though |
| 22:07:36 | <enikar> | I think it exists |
| 22:07:58 | <geekosaur> | :t (<*) |
| 22:07:59 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => f a -> f b -> f a |
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| 22:08:29 | <enikar> | Finally it doesn't exist in Control.Monad at least |
| 22:09:00 | <enikar> | it's odd. |
| 22:09:59 | <geekosaur> | (>>) only exists because do notation desugars into it (and (>>=)) |
| 22:10:54 | <geekosaur> | @undo do {a; b; c} |
| 22:10:55 | <lambdabot> | a >> b >> c |
| 22:11:29 | <monochrom> | Entitled people gonna define universal truth by personal favouritism. |
| 22:13:33 | <exarkun> | a certain symmetry would be satisfied by the existence of (<<) surely |
| 22:13:58 | <enikar> | we can use (<*) instead |
| 22:14:33 | <monochrom> | It's probably too late to add (<<) because (<*) is already around. |
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| 23:37:38 | <crats> | Is there a way to specify a different history file for ghci per invocation? Thanks. |
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| 23:44:05 | <monochrom> | I have only found: -flocal-ghci-history creates/uses currentdirectory/.ghci_history |
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All times are in UTC on 2023-12-28.