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Logs on 2024-01-04 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:58:51 <iphy> is there an equivalent to (fmap . fmap . fmap) for "for_"?
01:00:01 <iphy> I want to do a 3 levels deep for_, so right now I have `for_ xxxs $ \xxs -> for_ xxs $ \xs -> for_ xs -> do something`
01:03:24 <EvanR> energizer, "record of functions" or just type classes accomplishes "uniform interface which could be implemented many ways"... which is more like intersection types than union
01:04:50 <energizer> EvanR: i mean if i want to make a union of T and R then i can define a class UnionTR and implement it for T and R
01:05:54 <EvanR> then some function says I expect to be handed a thing that satisfies UnionTR, i.e. T AND R, i.e. intersection not union
01:06:03 <EvanR> whereas union is like T OR R
01:06:42 <EvanR> at least that's how interfaces are described in oop nowadays
01:06:51 <monochrom> Rewrite "for_ xs f" to "traverse_ f xs", which is actually the OG (OK the real OG is mapM_). for_ was an afterthought syntax sugar.
01:08:13 <monochrom> Then you will find that you're looking at "traverse_ (traverse_ (traverse_ something)) xxxs" so it is amenable to using (.)
01:10:06 <monochrom> This is why mapM_ is the OG. It is directly analogous to fmap, complete with analogous argument order. forM_ and for_ are imposters.
01:11:17 <[Leary]> You could also use `for_ . Compose . Compose`.
01:11:33 <monochrom> :(
01:12:14 <iphy> right, thanks :)
01:12:45 <EvanR> we need a programming language where argument order doesn't matter
01:13:00 <EvanR> to finally solve it
01:13:31 <EvanR> and yes it's HTML
01:14:26 <energizer> PL with only commutative functions probably exists
01:18:09 <monochrom> Here are some reasons people have trouble clarifying between "and" and "or".
01:19:55 <monochrom> If I have a set S = {x,y}, then both of the following hold: "if z in S, then z=x or z=y" which harps on "or"; "x in S and y in S" which harps on "and".
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01:21:17 <monochrom> Every function of type "Either X Y -> Z" (which harps on "or") can be factored into a pair (X -> Z, Y -> Z) (which harps on "and").
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01:23:37 <EvanR> when math descriptions of situations annoyingly decide to explain "x has some property P" as "x is in set P"... is that and or or xD
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01:28:27 <monochrom> Oh yeah that is one more reason, which goes way back to what Aristotle realized.
01:30:43 <monochrom> He realized that there are two dual ways to characterize a notion. For example if you want to characterize cars. You could enumerate all instances of cars. Or you could enumerate all traits of cars. (The OO people end up doing the latter, s/trait/method/ )
01:31:24 <monochrom> Naturally, union of trait sets becomes intersection of instance sets.
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06:52:13 <dminuoso_> energizer: To continue on your union topic. Well you can of course just use Dynamic, and write some `unsafeFromDynamic :: Dynamic -> a`, and enjoy the bottoms in your program.
06:52:43 <dminuoso_> Err that is missing a `Typeable a` constraint of course.
06:53:12 <energizer> dminuoso_: it's not the dynamism that i'm looking for, it just so happens that dynamic languages tend to have support for those types
06:53:50 <dminuoso_> I dont understand.
06:53:59 <dminuoso_> How is `Dynamic` not exactly that all-encompassing union type?
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07:36:48 <monochrom> I don't think there is consensus whether it is "dynamic languages can support union types" or "dynamic languages support no types at all, instead can support dynamic ad hoc dispatch".
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07:41:27 <monochrom> But it's an unproductive rabbit hole because every time you take a solution method optimized for one language and try to replicate it in another language it is always going to be an unproductive rabbit hole.
07:42:44 <monochrom> Like I said, the converse also holds, it is just as silly to replicate Haskell's favourite algebraic types and pattern matching in Python and refuse to use OO there.
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07:46:51 <dminuoso_> monochrom: Sure. I think trying to pin any single description to python is helpful, they are ultimately just mind models.
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07:47:27 <dminuoso_> Especially if a language doesnt outright start with denotational semantics
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08:03:41 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> Does it matter?
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08:08:59 <[exa]> energizer: "tend to have support for these types" I tend to read as "for whatever reason they didn't decide to kill the wide spectrum of subtle atrocities right at the source"
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08:11:20 <energizer> anyway i found a paper about union and intersection types, i figure it'll be more productive to read that than doing another round on irc https://arxiv.org/pdf/1206.5386.pdf
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08:34:35 <[exa]> energizer: btw most people who actually want "union-ish" types are pretty happy with existentials, e.g. the polymorphic lists etc. The main challenge is to represent the information that is really available at compile-time reasonably; and with unions that's quite hard
08:36:06 <[exa]> cf. julia -- they try to do unions everywhere and it kinda works BUT suddenly there are packages with loading time around 10 seconds where the whole time is wasted by the runtime on literally searching through the type unions and trying to figure out what is what
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13:46:52 <haskellbridge> 04<A​rtem> Julia is slow to load not because of union types. It's the whole compilation strategy and LLVM working at load time. The union stuff is pretty efficient. You can read a paper of my colleague Ben Ching on it https://benchung.github.io/papers/jlalgo.pdf
13:51:34 <[exa]> Artem: that's another issue. I spent a lot of time benchmarking this one, don't worry
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13:55:27 <[exa]> as in, try doing `import JuMP` and profile; 85% time spent is in `intersect_all` of runtime just walking&backtracking through the types
13:56:30 <[exa]> the LLVM precompilation used to be a lot worse (esp. in 2019 from the paper date) but they did a pretty good job on precompiling and caching reasonably, so it's by far not as painful nowadays
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16:08:10 <Fansly> Hello
16:08:57 <[exa]> hi there
16:17:12 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> hi
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16:38:07 <Dmitry44> Hello! I try to install ghcid and have the same problems on all my machines (under vanilla Arch).
16:38:12 <Dmitry44> [1 of 6] Compiling Language.Haskell.Ghcid.Escape ( src/Language/Haskell/Ghcid/Escape.hs, dist/build/Language/Haskell/Ghcid/Escape.o, dist/build/Language/Haskell/Ghcid/Escape.dyn_o )
16:38:13 <Dmitry44> src/Language/Haskell/Ghcid/Escape.hs:12:1: error:
16:38:13 <Dmitry44>     Could not find module ‘Data.Either.Extra’
16:38:14 <Dmitry44>     There are files missing in the ‘extra-1.7.14’ package,
16:38:14 <Dmitry44>     try running 'ghc-pkg check'.
16:38:15 <Dmitry44>     Use -v (or `:set -v` in ghci) to see a list of the files searched for.
16:38:15 <Dmitry44>    |
16:38:16 <Dmitry44> 12 | import Data.Either.Extra
16:38:16 <Dmitry44>    | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
16:38:17 <Dmitry44> src/Language/Haskell/Ghcid/Escape.hs:13:1: error:
16:38:17 <Dmitry44>     Could not find module ‘Data.List.Extra’
16:38:18 <Dmitry44>     There are files missing in the ‘extra-1.7.14’ package,
16:38:18 <Dmitry44>     try running 'ghc-pkg check'.
16:38:19 <Dmitry44>     Use -v (or `:set -v` in ghci) to see a list of the files searched for.
16:38:19 <Dmitry44>    |
16:38:20 <Dmitry44> 13 | import Data.List.Extra
16:38:20 <Dmitry44>    | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
16:38:21 <Dmitry44> src/Language/Haskell/Ghcid/Escape.hs:15:1: error:
16:39:00 <exarkun> Dmitry44: irc is not great at large blobs of text. Try pasting on something like gist.github.com or codepad.org and then pasting a link here.
16:39:13 <EvanR> @where paste
16:39:13 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
16:39:29 <Dmitry44> i tried both ways: install Cabal / GHC with ghcup, or to install it from Arch repo (ghc 9.0, cabal-install, ghc-static, ghc-extra)
16:39:46 <Dmitry44> got it!
16:40:01 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> arch repo is broken trash
16:40:26 <Dmitry44> ok. which linux distro is most stable for haskell?
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16:41:35 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> stable? Haskellers hate stable
16:41:38 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> let's see
16:41:45 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, Mint
16:42:14 <Dmitry44> i'm a beginner, so i prefer something smooth and gentle ))) joking
16:42:18 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> I'm leaning towards Fedora
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16:44:19 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> I like smooth too, but some Haskellers don't
16:44:22 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> they like it rough
16:44:34 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> they want things to break, because it's cool :D
16:45:34 <Dmitry44> thanks
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16:49:58 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> "ar: .stack-work/dist/aarch64-osx/ghc-9.8.1/build/cbits/c_fsevents.o: No such file or directory" - does it ring any bells ?
16:50:10 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> (building hfsevents.. I guess I should check their tracker)
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16:56:38 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> lots of haskellers want things to not break, let's not make people forget we exist :)
16:56:46 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> think we don't exist
16:57:18 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> gosh why would anyone pick Fedora over Debian ? well, off topic I guess
16:57:52 <[exa]> way to break stuff
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17:00:35 <[exa]> re fsevents, is there any previous error or log from anything that made the c_fsevents.o ?
17:00:54 <[exa]> (kinda wondering, why would the source file have a suffix `.m` ?)
17:03:09 <EvanR> we're blaming arch's haskell issues on haskell?
17:03:33 <EvanR> smh
17:04:27 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> [exa] I don't think so, I'm also getting this from just `stack build hfsevents`
17:04:29 <geekosaur> [exa], looks like Objective-C
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17:05:00 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> I would compare with cabal but I am not smart enough to make cabal (re)build this package and confirm that it worked
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17:07:01 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> sm: Fedora never break OpenSSL? xD
17:07:07 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> *broke
17:07:15 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> can think of many other reasons
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17:11:56 <duncan> It is not the case that Fedora breaks things like package dependencies
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17:12:24 <duncan> It adds new Linux sauce and changes a way of doing a thing, but it's not actually broken
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17:12:33 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> debian also likes to mess with SONAMEs and pkg-config files
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17:19:40 <duncan> If you consider Linux changing things like network, sound as a breakage, then sure, Debian breaks those too. If you aren't considering something like BSD or Solaris/Illumos as a serious alternative in this case (which they absolutely are), then that's on you, and your loss
17:20:37 <duncan> Debian LTS is also really good BTW, and it's in most circumstances free of charge. I'd use that sooner than Ubuntu or its derivatives.
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17:21:10 <haskellbridge> 14<m​aerwald> or Gentoo ;P
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17:23:52 haskellbridge 06<s​m> throws https://changelog.complete.org/archives/10620-consider-security-first into the pot
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18:28:05 <exarkun> there isn't a deriving strategy for a record type that derives an instance using the instance for a specified record field, is there?
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18:33:34 <glguy> exarkun: seem very unlikely
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19:26:45 <[exa]> is there some shortcut syntax for making functions that update a few named record fields, like `\record -> record{field1=xxx, field2=yyy}`
19:26:58 <glguy> no
19:27:19 <[exa]> but I'd love to abuse this for various devilish purposes. :(
19:28:02 <geekosaur> (lens…)
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19:31:02 <monochrom> lens or maybe something from the HasField system.
19:31:03 <EvanR> define that function
19:31:15 <monochrom> That too. :)
19:32:05 <Rembane> Isn't it possible to pattern match on records if using some nice modern extensions?
19:32:52 <monochrom> Yes, but this question doesn't want to get fields, it wants to set fields.
19:33:53 <[exa]> yap. I'll probably go with lenses but the operator glue there isn't that nice
19:34:09 <[exa]> the syntax \{f1=val1, f2=val2} is used for anything?
19:34:34 <[exa]> ok apparently it's reserved for a parse error
19:35:54 <monochrom> I expect "\R{f1=val1, f2=val2} -> ..." to be vanilla Haskell 2010 pattern matching for record syntax, if R is a data constructor.
19:36:38 <monochrom> "\{f1=val1, f2=val2}" is way too close to that, and I would not like it to mean setting fields instead of getting fields.
19:37:36 <monochrom> At any rate in general I expect "\foo" to mean that foo is an input not an output.
19:37:57 <monochrom> or rather, foo describes an input.
19:41:10 <[exa]> yeah
19:46:12 <c_wraith> monochrom: am I remembering right, that you sometimes give students an exercise in making a probability monad?
19:47:06 <Franciman> is anybody using haskell with guix?
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19:47:56 <monochrom> c_wraith: You remember right, I did that.
19:48:34 <c_wraith> monochrom: did you ask them to model the Monty Hall problem to make sure they got it right? :)
19:48:47 <monochrom> I didn't.
19:48:59 <c_wraith> You may not be evil enough :)
19:49:15 <[exa]> Franciman: I've had a plan to try like 2 months ago but never got to it :D
19:50:07 <Franciman> i was trying, and it seems kinda "problemless" atm
19:50:17 <Franciman> issue being you have fewer packaged deps
19:50:33 <Franciman> but you also have the guix import hackage/stackage commodity
19:50:41 <Franciman> haven't tried them yet
19:51:14 <[exa]> you might hit this https://github.com/simonmichael/hledger/issues/1033#issuecomment-1005437746
19:51:25 <[exa]> but that's all the problems I know about
19:51:44 <Franciman> ty
19:51:49 <monochrom> As it happens, it is true that the dispute comes down to "Hall knows which door is unprized and opens it" vs "Hall picks a random door to open, oh it happens to be unprized". So it comes down to whoever posing the question making it clear or unclear.
19:53:07 <monochrom> Or did I misremember it? I need to check again.
19:53:42 <c_wraith> monochrom: I don't think that actually matters. I think it is sufficient to say "he opened a door, this is what was behind it".
19:54:09 <c_wraith> Whether he knew or not doesn't affect the decision tree
19:54:44 <__monty__> Also doesn't matter whether or not the prize is behind the revealed door.
19:55:20 <__monty__> If it is then switch or not doesn't matter. If it isn't then switching's optimal. That means regardless of what is revealed it's optimal to switch.
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19:56:51 <c_wraith> hah. also true.
19:57:59 <c_wraith> though if he reveals the winning prize, it *does* change the probabilities, even if not what choice is optimal
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20:36:59 <peutri> what if his alg is "only offer to switch if it results in a goat"?
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20:38:12 <monochrom> You are an evil game host. >:)
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20:39:00 <monochrom> Are you the Phantom of The Opera? Offering a lose-lose game?
20:40:36 <EvanR> if the prize is behind the open door, the probability is 100%. Otherwise 0%
20:40:42 <EvanR> duh
20:41:17 <peutri> my point is, if all you see is him switching, you don't know much more of the rules
20:41:19 <EvanR> veritasium has been having a field day with stuff like this
20:41:21 <EvanR> recently
20:42:14 <monochrom> All versions of the question insist that the revealed door has no prize. So if you model Hall as random, you have to throw in conditional probability "on condition that it is unprized".
20:42:37 <monochrom> Wait, recent? I think it has been years.
20:43:13 <EvanR> sleeping beauty paradox 10 months ago, ok not that recent
20:43:17 <EvanR> just me time warping
20:43:21 <monochrom> Definitely older than that time about the switch, the lightbulb just a metre away, and a very very long cable.
20:43:46 <monochrom> Oh sleeping beauty.
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20:45:25 <EvanR> I keep thinking the right answer is one which I never heard anywhere but probability 101, which posed probabilities as things you make up for a situation instead of discovering from a word problem, unless the word problem gives you the probabilities somehow
20:46:11 <monochrom> I agree.
20:46:13 <EvanR> so monty hall having 99.9999% prize in one of the doors is valid instead of 1/3
20:48:32 <monochrom> Well you make up assumptions, but you try to be reasonable, so for example you use the principle of indifference and assume uniform probabilities as much as possible.
20:49:48 <EvanR> the probabilities you make up could be better or worse by a practical metric once applied
20:49:55 <EvanR> if you can repeat experiments
20:50:15 <EvanR> maybe if you can't
20:50:42 <EvanR> i.e. I said probability is 0% and the one time we get to try it happens, my model sucks
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20:52:45 <monochrom> Yeah I just mean you do not start with 0.999 out of the blue, if you start with it it should be because you have data or previous experience favouring it.
20:52:59 <EvanR> or perhaps you have an argument arguing for it xD
20:53:19 <EvanR> logos pathos ethos or something
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22:07:00 <phma> I submitted a package, but Hackage refused to build it because its compiler is too old to understand (.>>.). Is it time to upgrade the compiler?
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22:07:20 <phma> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/WringTwistree-0.0.1.0/reports/2
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22:08:45 <c_wraith> might be. I have no idea how they pick a GHC version to build with. In the interim, you can upload docs built offline
22:09:18 <phma> The docs build fine on my box. How do I upload them?
22:09:57 <c_wraith> check out how https://github.com/ekmett/lens/blob/master/scripts/hackage-docs.sh does it
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22:13:30 <jackdk> cabal haddock --haddock-for-hackage followed by cabal upload -d on the tarball it makes
22:14:17 <phma> will that work with stack too? cabal would use the old compiler, I think
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22:17:23 <sclv> cabal uses whatever compiler you specify with the -with-compiler flag
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22:18:00 <monochrom> Huh you can totally install a new compiler (eg with ghcup) and if it is the default (eg tell ghcup to make it default) then cabal will use it.
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22:21:32 <monochrom> In fact under a reasonablility assumption, since you have uploaded to hackage, you must have tested "cabal build" and observed that it have succeeded, therefore it must have used a new-enough compiler.
22:22:11 <sclv> i assume they tested with stack
22:22:42 <monochrom> Well then the reasonability assumption fails.
22:23:02 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> Heya, I'm trying to build a computer algebra system that focuses on type level stuff.
22:23:03 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> Specifically I have a `Function f` class which can be extended.
22:23:03 <monochrom> Naive of me to assume that people test things before uploading.
22:23:04 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> I want to be able to perform simplifications on them, for which I was considering an open type family, in order to add simplifications on the fly.
22:23:05 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> The problem is, that there are overlaps pretty quickly which makes this not very useful, as it doesn't work properly.
22:23:07 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> Specifically, if I for example have `instance Simplifies (Number :+ Number) where type Simplification (Number :+ Number) = Number; -- implementation` then it becomes impossible to have a recursive case `instance Simplifies (f :+ g) where -- ...` because those overlap.
22:23:08 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> I was trying multiple things (split up into multiple classes, Use newtypes) but none have worked out yet
22:23:32 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> I don't really know where to go from here, because I would like to be able to do type level extendable simplification
22:24:49 <monochrom> "computer algebra system that focuses on type level stuff" sounds like an oxymoron.
22:25:10 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> Let's call it a CAS library, does that make sense?
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22:26:29 <monochrom> Either you go all out on dependent typing, or you accept a large chunk of run-time checks.
22:26:48 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> yeah I want to try to do dependent types but I suck at it lol
22:26:55 <monochrom> In the former case, either way 10 more years for Haskell to get there, or switch to a real dependently typed language today.
22:27:04 <monochrom> s/way/wait/
22:27:20 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> heh
22:27:34 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> I mean, I can mostly get there with what I have using closed type families
22:27:44 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> but I want to have it extendable
22:28:04 <monochrom> But overlapping instances is not a crime, it is possibly the right thing to do in this case.
22:28:31 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> but it doesn't compile, at all
22:28:57 <monochrom> For example the Data Types a la Carte paper uses it. I think it uses undecidable instances too. This is just cause. I think that paper addresses what you're doing too.
22:29:17 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> okay thank you
22:30:54 <monochrom> Consult the GHC user's guide on how to enable overlapping instances. (It is no longer as simple as OverlappingInstances because it really shouldn't be that coarse-grained.)
22:32:17 <monochrom> (Although, for a quirky first try, just turn it on coarse-grained, worry about fine-tuning later. :) )
22:34:13 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> I'm also thinking about if I actually need all this typelevel stuff xd
22:34:23 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> I have learned a lot, that's a good thing I suppose
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