Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-01-15 (liberachat/#haskell)

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02:21:31 <c_wraith> sm: what sort of "poor durability" do you mean?
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02:44:11 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> c_wraith: I mean fragility of the site build/update process due to compiler and deps churn and resource costs
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02:47:21 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> eg, "can't fix a typo on my site because I can't build the generator"
02:47:41 <c_wraith> so.. stuff "cabal freeze" fixes?
02:49:22 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> we have more workarounds for it these days but I think it's still a real concern
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02:50:47 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> leave your site for a few years.. maybe upgrade your os.. now can you still build it ? if you're not a haskell expert ? you get my drift I think
02:51:05 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> (it happened to me)
02:54:59 <EvanR> is it that the compiler updates so fast, or chad operator can't stick with 1 ghc version for more than 1 year
02:56:55 <jackdk> My hakyll blog is under nix control, so I get the same GHC and library versions whenever I come back to it
02:57:04 <yushyin> roughly follows the same line as some devs labelling their haskell projects as unmaintainable and rewriting it into something else after all.
03:00:39 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> obviously sufficiently motivated people can make it work just fine, but it's a relatively costly tool chain to run and maintain, so a drag on adoption
03:01:40 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> and I suppose beyond that the creator moved on, so nobody really pushing it forward
03:01:52 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> in an organized way
03:02:04 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> stop me if I'm out of date here
03:02:46 <c_wraith> It's definitely got some weird design things. I don't know how much of that is imported from jekyll and how much is just inexperience when building hakyll
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08:53:30 <Btw> just wanted to ask if i map over a array and to create a new array , is that a functor?
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08:54:37 <[exa]> Btw: yeah `fmap` should be the perfect way to do that. May depend on the exact type of the array but for all sensible ones `fmap` should just work
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11:41:23 <z_erica> hello! i am currently packaging ghc for a new linux distribution, and im running into snags related to unresolved dependencies im not sure at all how to investigate
11:41:39 <z_erica> for the record, two things of note about this distribution are that it uses clang instead of gcc, and musl instead of glibc
11:42:18 <z_erica> the most obvious way this problem shows is probably running something like `System.Posix.Env.getEnv "USER"` through ghci
11:42:32 <z_erica> in which case it spits out `Could not load 'unixzm2zi8zi1zi0_SystemziPosixziEnv_getEnv_closure', dependency unresolved.`
11:43:16 <z_erica> i feel like this has to be some unix symbols not getting linked in at _some_ point, but im unsure where to even begin looking
11:43:18 <z_erica> any pointers?
11:44:09 <z_erica> and of course if theres a better room for this kind of question please let me know
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11:51:01 <danse-nr3> not sure, maybe #ghc
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11:52:48 <z_erica> ohh ill repost that there just in case, thank you!
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11:57:14 <danse-nr3> cool
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13:25:15 <ncf> data D n = forall a. Eq a => D (Vec n a)
13:25:20 <ncf> puzzle: show that the number of elements of D n follows a sequence on the OEIS
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13:25:42 <ncf> puzzle': do it with Ord
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13:47:34 <int-e> That's misstated... you're treating D (fromList [(),()]) and D (fromList [42,42]) as equivalent.
13:48:00 <int-e> (maybe abusing notation; Vec n won't have a fromList)
13:48:27 <ncf> they are indistinguishable, aren't they
13:48:43 <ncf> a cannot escape its scope!
13:48:49 <int-e> but they're not the same
13:49:05 <ncf> they're the same enough
13:49:17 <ncf> D n is isomorphic to Fin m and i'm asking what m is
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13:49:22 <[Leary]> They look the same to me.
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13:49:50 <int-e> I'd much prefer "distinguishable".
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13:53:12 <int-e> > map (\xs -> [x == y | ys@(x:_) <- tails xs, y <- ys]) [[0/0],[1]]
13:53:13 <lambdabot> [[False],[True]]
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13:54:59 <ncf> > map (\xs -> [x == x | x <- xs]) [[0/0],[1]]
13:55:01 <lambdabot> [[False],[True]]
13:55:07 <int-e> Anyway I guess you want Bell numbers (I forgot) and Fubini numbers (I never heard of those I think)
13:55:23 <ncf> oh yeah, i forgot to add that all instances should be assumed lawful (this one fails reflexivity)
13:55:24 <int-e> ncf: I wanted a full characteristic result
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13:56:01 <ncf> yes, Bell and Fubini is correct
13:56:20 <ncf> there's an interesting subtlety, imo, when trying to argue this formally
13:56:24 <int-e> With lawless instances you'll get 2^(n(n+1)/2) and 3^(n(n+1)/2) or more if you include bottoms.
13:56:51 <int-e> err
13:56:59 <int-e> n^2 not n(n+1)/2
13:57:08 <ncf> namely: a naive approach might be to say "well, Eq is a contravariant functor, so by coyoneda that's Eq (Vec n), so you count the lawful instances of Eq (Vec n)"
13:57:18 <int-e> (why did I still assume symmetry, that's so silly)
13:57:37 <ncf> but there's supposed to be exactly one instance of Eq (Vec n), so this can't be right
13:57:41 <ncf> lawful instance*
13:58:15 <ncf> (the reason of course is that this "strict" interpretation of Eq is not functorial; you have to weaken it to "equivalence relation" for it to be functorial)
13:58:15 <int-e> hmm is that true?
13:58:29 <int-e> you can just compare *some* of the elements
13:58:49 <ncf> er sorry i mean Eq (Fin n)
13:58:56 <ncf> well one of the laws is extensionality, and that seems like it fails if you randomly choose to identify 0 and 1 in Fin n
13:59:16 <int-e> I'm not quite sure what you can do with an arbitrary set partition here
13:59:16 <ncf> (namely it fails for the function (> 0) :: Fin n -> Bool)
13:59:50 <int-e> eh extensionality fails a lot
14:00:06 <int-e> it's more of a spiritual requirement than an actual one
14:00:15 <ncf> where does it fail?
14:00:30 <int-e> Take Data.Map.Map if you use internals
14:01:04 <ncf> right
14:01:34 <int-e> It's more prominent with Ord, where you have uses for stuff like Keyed k v = Key k v ordered just by the key.
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14:02:07 <ncf> so i guess for the subtlety to arise you really have to insist that instances are lawful to the letter
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14:13:34 <alycidyne> Hello, can Haskell's class constraints be considered bounded quantification or not?
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14:26:15 <danse-nr3> after quickly skimming through en.wikipedia.org/wiki/bounded_quantification i would say yes, although calling it "quantification" seems a bit improper to me, as one cannot choose whether to apply existential or universal quantification with a class constraint
14:27:45 <danse-nr3> i understand quantification as something orthogonal to the predicate that goes with it
14:27:56 <alycidyne> danse-nr3: yeah of course, but the gist of the idea is there, though AFAIK Haskell doesn't have subtyping per se
14:28:06 <alycidyne> Or is that more a question of terminology?
14:28:47 <danse-nr3> yeah the gist seems to be there
14:30:32 <alycidyne> FWIW subtype polymorphism often is considered only wrt the actual run-time type of the function arguments (i.e. in the context of dynamic dispatch), which might be the major sticking point
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15:14:23 <kuribas> man, Python is so easy... The loops I need to go to make recursive generators work, as opposed to a lazy list...
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15:24:21 <monochrom> See my https://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/cont.xhtml#yield for how to do that in Haskell!
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15:41:40 <kuribas> well, I meant sarcastically...
15:41:53 <monochrom> haha OK!
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15:45:05 <kuribas> but still neat :)
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17:21:26 <carbolymer> @pl \_ -> pure ()
17:21:26 <lambdabot> const (pure ())
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17:22:23 <carbolymer> nah, more characters
17:23:51 <nullie> are you golfing?
17:25:21 <tromp> how do I output a byte (value 0..255) to stdout?
17:26:34 <carbolymer> nullie: always
17:27:04 <nullie> carbolymer: is there a good codegolfing service?
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17:28:54 <carbolymer> nullie: I was actually joking, I believe somewhere out there it is ;)
17:29:16 <tromp> is there a function with type Word8 -> IO () ?
17:29:30 <ncf> BS.putStr . BS.singleton
17:29:47 <ncf> where BS = Data.ByteString
17:29:55 <geekosaur> the elephant in the room being encodings
17:32:08 <EvanR> or hPut
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17:40:00 <tromp> thanks
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18:06:40 mauke sets stdout to latin-1, outputs (chr n)
18:13:12 <ncf> not a Word8!
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19:12:23 <haskellbridge> 14<m​auke> toEnum . fromEnum
19:13:17 <EvanR> how Word8 ruined an entire movie: this dialog from black panther 2 "it's protected with 265 bit encryption"
19:14:07 <haskellbridge> 06<s​m> lol oh no! not 265 bit
19:15:24 <nullie> Maybe it involved Dutch people. Tweehonderdzesenvijftig
19:15:31 <duncan> How else would you protect assets?
19:16:33 <c_wraith> tesla coils
19:16:58 <darkling> Trained ferrets.
19:17:08 <duncan> What is the haskellbridge account bridged.. to?
19:17:20 <c_wraith> matrix
19:17:28 <c_wraith> I think you can /whois it for more details
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19:30:15 <[exa]> EvanR: c'mon that's 9 bits better!!1111
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23:59:30 <qrpnxz> Where can I read about non-source files that GHC handles such as .o (object files), .hi (interface files?), etc., what they are for, and so on?

All times are in UTC on 2024-01-15.