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Logs on 2024-01-23 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:01:40 <ph88> is there a way to search for functions which calls another function ?
00:01:40 <jackdk> EvanR: DSum certainly, but DMap's going to need its flavour of Ord (GCompare) to put things into the map
00:02:17 <jackdk> I'm not aware of any call-graph tools, but grep is a crude hammer
00:02:27 <EvanR> er,
00:02:30 <d34df00d> ph88: haskell-language-server has support for finding references, so if your editor has LSP support, you're golden.
00:02:45 <d34df00d> (works great in my (neo)vim)
00:03:10 <EvanR> Ord for the keys makes sense
00:03:18 <EvanR> I don't see why GCompare is involved
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00:30:30 <dmj`> mauke: is there any way partial evaluation could be used to bound the number of specialized functions created during monomorphization. For example, error if the max tuple size is reached
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00:33:23 <dmj`> mauke: to allow polymorphic recursion to be monomorphized, for a subset of polymorphic recursive functions
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00:51:22 <ph88> how can i step into functions defined in other modules ?
00:51:30 <ph88> with a debugger
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00:56:28 <geekosaur> you have to load them as source, which will be difficult if they're in other libraries/packages
00:57:54 <geekosaur> in general you can :add a module prefixed with a * to load it as source
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01:10:13 <dmj`> mauke: "test.rs:27:0: 34:1 error: overly deep expansion of inlined function" what rust does
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03:27:31 <dmj`> c_wraith: no existentials is fine with me :)
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03:29:44 <dmj`> c_wraith: wouldn't that also mean disabling recursive calls within typeclass instances though
03:30:02 <c_wraith> No
03:30:34 <c_wraith> polymorphic recursion is something else.
03:31:16 <c_wraith> polymorphic recursion is when the thing you're writing *isn't* part of the class
03:31:32 <c_wraith> So it's the same value even after the renaming pass
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03:33:52 <c_wraith> err. the renamer doesn't rename class values. Eh. Whatever. It's when it's the same value, not a different one that happens to share the same name.
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03:58:22 <c_wraith> dmj`: relevantly, polymorphic recursion is the main way (in Haskell) to get types that depend on runtime values. And that means if that type has a class constraint, the exact code to run simply isn't known at compile time. There's no way to monomorphize it
04:00:04 <c_wraith> > let f :: Show a => a -> Int -> String ; f x 0 = show x ; f x n = f (x, x) (n - 1) in f "hi" 3
04:00:06 <lambdabot> "(((\"hi\",\"hi\"),(\"hi\",\"hi\")),((\"hi\",\"hi\"),(\"hi\",\"hi\")))"
04:00:26 <c_wraith> you don't know at compile time what specific instance of Show `f` will be using there.
04:00:37 <c_wraith> And while that's a very contrived example, it's enough to show the problem
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04:18:40 <dmj`> c_wraith: okay great, yea the goal would be to remove all dynamic determination of what code should get executed. If that means no existential, higher rank types or polymorphic recursion, that’s okay. It does exclude things like ST and requires different way to handle exceptions (Haskell 98), way.
04:18:58 <c_wraith> ST isn't excluded
04:19:17 <c_wraith> It only excludes those things when they quantify over a constrained type variable
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04:20:05 <c_wraith> the universally quantified type variable in runST is even phantom
04:21:31 <dmj`> c_wraith: for polymorphic recursion yes, but monomorphization is also prohibited by higher rank types according to Oleg K
04:24:01 <c_wraith> in a technical sense, yes. But if you keep types lifted, you'll never see the difference.
04:24:17 <dmj`> c_wraith: you’re saying full monomorphization can be had with rank n types ?
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04:24:45 <c_wraith> No, but I'm saying you can generate the same code in some cases if you aren't also eliminating laziness.
04:27:01 <c_wraith> like, my example from earlier... I have a data type like this in it: data Pack m = forall a. Pack (m a) (TMVar (Either SomeException a))
04:27:33 <c_wraith> Ok, the SomeException part would break without classes. But if you ignore the error reporting, and focus on the other part
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04:28:12 <dmj`> c_wraith: if ST can be implemented without rank n types safely I’m all for it. Doing mutability in IO might be good enough. ST is just a self imposed restriction over IO anyway. The types will stay lifted, and lazy by default. The optimizer would try to lower the types therefore removing unnecessary laziness by inlining / simplifying / unpacking. But monomorphization should open the door to SIMD easily.
04:28:16 <c_wraith> The code that uses that doesn't need to monomorphize to generate optimal code. It just copies a pointer from one spot to another
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04:30:00 <c_wraith> You only run into problems with that when you remove the uniform lifted representation of data types
04:30:13 <c_wraith> which is usually what people *actually* want when they say they want to monomorphize
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04:36:02 <dmj`> c_wraith: regarding the existential types, keeping type inference decidable would be nice. Existentials and rank n types can lead to some tough type errors for beginners.
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04:37:21 <c_wraith> beginners get near those topics?
04:38:27 <dmj`> c_wraith: via libraries, yea I think so
04:39:40 <dmj`> c_wraith: the uniform representation should still be there. I’d like to lambda lift, closure convert and defunctionalize into a first order language where closures turn into data constructors, then optimizations can try to lower everything
04:40:18 <c_wraith> I'm very wary of doing anything "for beginners". My experience is that beginners stop being beginners and start asking how to do things, and it's much better to say "oh, learn this new thing" than "we removed it because beginners were sad"
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04:44:39 <dmj`> c_wraith: type checking / inference should be a lot faster too with a simplified system, not just for beginners. It could be cool to experiment with a staging or macro system to produce types / constructors as an alternative to GADTs, type families, TH and generics
04:46:07 <dmj`> c_wraith: my experience with beginners is they want to try everything (which is normal for learning) and experienced people already have tried everything and know when *not* to use something… beginners don’t necessarily ime
04:49:27 <dmj`> c_wraith: both ST and exceptions will expose people to the existentials and rank n . Maybe rank 2 could be used if things stay decidable
04:49:47 <c_wraith> only SomeException exposes people to existentials
04:50:18 <c_wraith> (though without it, exceptions really have to have a fixed set of constructors in a Haskell-like language)
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04:54:22 <tri> hi, im having trouble understanding this piece of code that reads line from CSV.and prints them out
04:54:28 <tri> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/P2kywWyv
04:55:12 <tri> so the code is in the do notation, and i know the last expression of the IO () do notation has to be an IO ()
04:55:43 <tri> in the case of Left, i understand because putStrLn is an IO ()
04:55:56 <c_wraith> The outermost function in the Right case is V.forM_
04:56:09 <tri> yea so here's what im stuck at
04:56:38 <tri> forM_ is running the lambda against all the item in the vector
04:56:52 <tri> so coming from C#, it's like a ForEach on a List
04:57:04 <tri> and the result of this code is like a vector of IO ()
04:57:19 <c_wraith> ah. it's V.forM_ , not V.forM
04:57:27 <c_wraith> that _ is part of the name
04:57:43 <tri> yea and it sayd something like discarding the result
04:57:49 <tri> but anyway
04:57:52 <c_wraith> and it's an idiom that means "don't create a new data structure, just run this for the effects"
04:59:23 <dmj`> c_wraith: maybe we could be better at keeping pure code from throwing exceptions, totality checks. Haskell98 didn’t have SomeException, just IOError afaik
04:59:46 <c_wraith> Yeah, SomeException was part of making the exception mechanism support user-defined exception types
04:59:52 <tri> so after reading the type signature of forM_ again, it's kinda make sense
05:00:16 <c_wraith> tri: and especially contrast with forM
05:00:29 <tri> so, is it safe to say 95% of using forM_ is to run IO for each item in a vector?
05:00:54 <tri> or run IO for an item wrapped in a monad, if I use Control.Monad.forM_ ?
05:01:21 <c_wraith> Well forM_ is a name that's used with a lot more things than Vector. Vector needs its own special version because it can't be an instance of Foldable.
05:01:26 <tri> in other word, if i were to use forM_, 95% of the time is to do some sideeffect?
05:01:45 <c_wraith> But yes, it's just about running side effects with the contents of a collection
05:02:54 <c_wraith> (ok, Data.Vector.Vector is an instance of Foldable, but none of the others are.)
05:03:26 <tri> ok
05:03:30 <tri> so about forM
05:04:20 <tri> Monad m => Vector a -> (a -> m b) -> m (Vector b)
05:04:30 <dmj`> c_wraith: wonder if that could have been done with type classes
05:04:43 <tri> im interpreting it as...
05:05:08 <tri> sorry forget what i said
05:05:20 <tri> that forM looks like a traversable
05:05:25 <c_wraith> dmj`: it's part of the Data.Vector.Generic.Vector class
05:05:54 <Axman6> tri: yes, it is basically the traverse instance for Vector
05:05:59 <c_wraith> tri: mapM and traverse are the same function. forM = flip mapP
05:06:08 <Axman6> M*
05:06:09 <tri> oh ok so that's from the traversable
05:06:14 <tri> i didn't read to that chapter
05:06:15 <c_wraith> err. yes. mapM
05:06:29 <Axman6> a slightly more "friendly" name (and a bit shorter)
05:06:30 <tri> but from my experience with F# that looks like a traversable so i took a guess
05:06:49 <Axman6> :t map
05:06:50 <lambdabot> (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
05:06:51 <Axman6> :t mapM
05:06:52 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m (t b)
05:06:55 <Axman6> :t forM
05:06:56 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Monad m) => t a -> (a -> m b) -> m (t b)
05:06:57 <Axman6> :t forM_
05:06:58 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monad m) => t a -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
05:07:08 <Axman6> :t traverse
05:07:10 <lambdabot> (Traversable t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
05:07:12 <dmj`> c_wraith: meant for me? :)
05:07:49 <c_wraith> nope! typing is not working well!
05:07:59 <Axman6> tri: looks like you have the right intuition there - I feel like your next question might be "why do we have so many names for the same thing"
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05:09:01 <tri> well idk yet. That's question is going to be for a more experienced me
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05:09:35 <tri> anyway, is the forM_ related to traversable?
05:09:37 <Axman6> the answer is half historical, and half convenience. sometimes mapM is more convenient to write than forM: mapM somethingSimple [a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h] is often more clean than forM [a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h] somethingSimple, but forM someList $ \x -> do\n ... looks more for loop-y and often nests much more nicely
05:09:51 <Axman6> :t forM_
05:09:52 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monad m) => t a -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
05:10:06 <tri> it's a foldable so im not sure
05:10:12 <tri> and i haven't read the Foldable chapter yet
05:10:15 <Axman6> forM_ is Foldable, because we don't care about building a new structure, we just want the values inside
05:10:24 <Axman6> :t foldMap
05:10:25 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
05:10:56 <Axman6> give me all the a's, let me turn them into some Monoid (things which can be easily combined together) and combine them all together.
05:12:21 <tri> well that went over my head but thank you for your help
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05:13:44 <tri> Axman6: is there anything equivalent to forM_, just like forM and mapM?
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05:19:43 <xacktm> equivalent? like, since `forM = flip mapM`, then `forM_ = flip mapM_` ?
05:20:09 <tri> :t MapM_
05:20:10 <lambdabot> error:
05:20:10 <lambdabot> • Data constructor not in scope: MapM_
05:20:10 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant variable ‘mapM_’ (imported from Data.Foldable)
05:20:15 <tri> :t mapM_
05:20:16 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m ()
05:20:23 <tri> :t forM_
05:20:24 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monad m) => t a -> (a -> m b) -> m ()
05:20:49 <tri> xacktm: as tested above, yes you are right. Thank you
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05:22:11 <xacktm> np the word you were looking for is analogue btw
05:22:14 <xacktm> :t flip
05:22:15 <lambdabot> (a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c
05:23:54 <tri> thank you
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05:28:16 <Axman6> tri: if you understnad traversable, you can definitely understand Foldable (it's a simpler class that does a similar things, but is just about extracting values, rather than mapping them, like Traversable)
05:28:20 <Axman6> :t toList
05:28:21 <lambdabot> Foldable t => t a -> [a]
05:28:47 <tri> i mean i kind of understand from the name
05:28:47 <Axman6> that's the canonical Fldable function IMO, if you have a foldable which contains a's, you can get all the a's.
05:28:57 <tri> because i know how to use fold function
05:29:14 <tri> but i still need to read the chapter to have a full understanding
05:29:38 <Axman6> > fold (\x -> [a,a]) [a,b,c] :: [Expr]
05:29:39 <lambdabot> error:
05:29:39 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘[Expr]’ with ‘[Expr] -> [Expr]’
05:29:39 <lambdabot> Expected type: p0 -> [Expr] -> [Expr]
05:29:49 <Axman6> > fold (\x -> [x,x]) [a,b,c] :: [Expr]
05:29:51 <lambdabot> error:
05:29:51 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘[a0]’ with ‘[Expr] -> [Expr]’
05:29:51 <lambdabot> Expected type: a0 -> [Expr] -> [Expr]
05:30:00 <Axman6> ok I'm bad at this
05:30:09 <Axman6> > foldMap (\x -> [x,x]) [a,b,c] :: [Expr]
05:30:10 <lambdabot> [a,a,b,b,c,c]
05:30:15 <tri> also in F#, there's a thing called sequencing which iirc is related to traversable.
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05:30:43 <haskellbridge> 05<i​rregularsphere> does an existential `exists a` basically mean "some `a` satisfy this, some don't" or "only applies for some `a`"
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05:55:01 <tri> Hi im having trouble parsing csv. im using this https://hackage.haskell.org/package/cassava-0.5.3.0/docs/Data-Csv.html#g:4
05:56:00 <tri> this is my code so far https://paste.tomsmeding.com/c8xitufW
05:56:11 <tri> im having trouble on the very last line
05:57:03 <tri> basically, i know that i have to use decodeByName to decode the string read from csv file to my Haskell record
05:57:23 <tri> :t decodeByName
05:57:24 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: decodeByName
06:00:05 <tri> this is the type of decodeByName https://paste.tomsmeding.com/Yj5vLbJH
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06:00:50 <tri> in my case of expression, in the Right case, i would have a Vector of ANY
06:01:10 <tri> so how do i turn that vector of any to a vector of my data record Position?
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06:17:20 <tri> actually i got it
06:17:21 <tri> nvm
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09:00:05 <Hecate> If anyone has got any question regarding object linking with GHC, would you mind seeing if it's answered here: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/Linking ?
09:00:17 <Hecate> and if it's not, can I get a link to the answer so that I may reference it?
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13:30:23 <ski> i​rregularsphere : skip the "some don't" part
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14:23:13 <haskellbridge> 05<i​rregularsphere> ah right
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14:25:52 <haskellbridge> 05<i​rregularsphere> though does an existential allow for no types to be valid
14:26:27 <haskellbridge> 05<i​rregularsphere> I'm not sure how to construct an example but I'm expecting GHC/others to let it slide
14:29:17 <tomsmeding> irregularsphere: an existential variable can be any type, that's the point of an existential
14:30:09 <haskellbridge> 05<i​rregularsphere> what I mean is that no types ever satisfy the conditional/predicate after an existential
14:30:40 <tomsmeding> the type class constraints inside the quantifier, you mean?
14:30:47 <tomsmeding> the existential can still be any type
14:31:04 <tomsmeding> whether the thing under the quantifier has any inhabitants is a separate point :p
14:31:12 <tomsmeding> 'undefined' has a lot of types
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14:33:41 <tomsmeding> it becomes a bit more fuzzy if you have 'exists a. (a ~ Int) => ...'
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14:34:08 <tomsmeding> ghc is being annoying in letting me construct such a thing, even with undefined
14:35:20 <tomsmeding> in any case, it seems to me the most productive way to think about that is still that 'a' can be anything, including e.g. Bool; it's just that the term that has this type _must_ be bottom, because it will include evidence that e.g. Bool ~ Int, which does not exist
14:35:52 <tomsmeding> I'm assuming here that you encode the existential with something like 'data Exists c where Exists :: c a => a -> Exists c'
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14:44:00 <EvanR> there's a valid type for exists n such that (n ~ Int, IsEven n, IsOdd n), but no way to build it
14:44:14 <EvanR> nooo I messed that up
14:44:25 <EvanR> no dependent types
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14:54:32 <tomsmeding> heh
14:55:21 <__monty__> It's identical to the empty type no?
14:55:34 <__monty__> Void or such.
14:55:35 <tomsmeding> __monty__: it said `n ~ Int`, not `n : Int`
14:56:15 <tomsmeding> if it was (::) then it was dependent; if it said `n :: Nat` then it was type-level
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14:56:21 <tomsmeding> and we were talking about value-level Ints :)
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14:56:51 <ncf> yes, the type of even and odd integers is empty
14:57:42 <tomsmeding> in Agda the type Sigma Int (\n -> even n && odd n) is empty
14:57:50 <tomsmeding> good luck expressing that in Haskell
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15:00:42 <__monty__> Oh, because of bottom?
15:01:09 <tomsmeding> hm?
15:01:11 <tomsmeding> even ignoring bottom
15:01:17 <tomsmeding> there ain't enough dependence
15:01:22 <tomsmeding> unless you want to introduce singletons
15:01:42 <tomsmeding> (n ~ Int, IsEven n, IsOdd n) doesn't kind-check
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15:03:21 ncf . o O ( a type is even if it is finite and has even cardinality... )
15:03:46 <tomsmeding> :p I guess
15:08:30 <haskellbridge> 05<i​rregularsphere> ...so `exists` with `~` is basically a weaker form of dependency
15:08:46 <tomsmeding> haven't I just been trying to argue it's _not_ dependency? :p
15:09:00 <haskellbridge> 05<i​rregularsphere> emphasis on "weaker"
15:09:42 <ncf> exists is dependent
15:10:08 <ncf> it's just restricted to types
15:10:47 <ncf> or... things that have a kind, i guess
15:11:00 tomsmeding has always interpreted "dependent" as meaning "a type depending on a term"
15:11:20 <tomsmeding> types depending on types is just... polymorphism, right?
15:11:29 <tomsmeding> though this is a terminology discussion at this point
15:12:05 <ncf> you're right; i hate those
15:12:22 <tomsmeding> then let's not get into the weeds :p
15:12:45 <ncf> but e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_cube does use the weaker meaning of "dependency"
15:13:12 <tomsmeding> ah I see
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15:19:19 <kuribas> tomsmeding: but in a dependent language a type is a term.
15:19:26 <tomsmeding> which haskell is not!
15:19:50 <__monty__> Does Type-in-Type affect this?
15:19:59 <kuribas> right, so haskell doesn't have a dependent type, just things which look similar.
15:20:10 <tomsmeding> kuribas: that's what I'd say
15:20:23 <ncf> __monty__: not really
15:21:01 <danse-nr3> terminology discussions are annoying but they do help
15:21:07 <tomsmeding> % type T = forall n. (n ~ Int, Eq n, Ord n) => n
15:21:07 <yahb2> <interactive>:99:1: error: ; • Illegal equational constraint n ~ Int ; (Use GADTs or TypeFamilies to permit this) ; • In the type synonym declaration for ‘T’
15:21:11 <tomsmeding> % :set -XGADTs
15:21:11 <yahb2> <no output>
15:21:13 <kuribas> tomsmeding: not yet at least :)
15:21:13 <tomsmeding> % type T = forall n. (n ~ Int, Eq n, Ord n) => n
15:21:13 <yahb2> <no output>
15:21:25 <tomsmeding> ghc accepts this and only because of TypeInType I suspect :p
15:21:57 <ncf> seems to work without TypeInType
15:22:00 <tomsmeding> whether it has any useful meaning, however...
15:22:09 <tomsmeding> ncf: how are you turning off TypeInType?
15:22:13 <kuribas> tomsmeding: maybe never, but every once in a while I hear some progress has been made...
15:22:15 <ncf> :set -XNoTypeInType
15:22:22 <tomsmeding> ncf: https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/poly_kinds.html#extension-TypeInType
15:22:26 <tomsmeding> the thing cannot be turned off
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15:22:32 <ncf> ugh
15:22:40 <tomsmeding> that bridge has been burned a while ago
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15:23:11 <tomsmeding> kuribas: all hope is not lost but things are slow :p
15:25:07 <haskellbridge> 05<i​rregularsphere> reading this discussion felt like zoning out
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15:26:54 <haskellbridge> 05<i​rregularsphere> _...burned?_
15:27:18 <tomsmeding> it's not the right english idiom but I couldn't think of the right one
15:27:43 <danse-nr3> i thought /burning bridges/ was an idiom
15:28:08 <danse-nr3> oh i see
15:28:11 <tomsmeding> it is, but iirc it's more for leaving people leaving behind bad relations
15:28:25 <tomsmeding> this is more like "the choice has been made, no turning back now"
15:28:33 <danse-nr3> feels suited to all irreversible actions
15:28:33 <ncf> the ship has sailed
15:28:39 <tomsmeding> ncf: thank you
15:29:04 <tomsmeding> that's the one :)
15:29:05 <danse-nr3> i think cortez did burn some ships as well, by the way (=
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15:29:34 <danse-nr3> they were the crews' bridges to the old world
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15:42:45 <EvanR> that ship has sailed
15:43:03 <EvanR> that can of woopass was opened
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15:55:22 <mauke> that rubicon has been crossed
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19:14:12 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> why does the source of `Control.Category` a `RULE` `(p . q) . r = p . (q . r)`?
19:14:25 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> How does this help optimization specifically?
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19:34:16 <monochrom> Under lazy evaluation, `((f . g) . h) x` incurs one more step than `(f . (g . h)) x`
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21:26:58 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> ohh okay, thank you
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22:22:35 <yotta> Does anybody know the proper way to recover the file descriptor from FD? There is a mkFD function but there is not a reverse function to recover the low level file descriptor.
22:26:52 <mauke> which FD?
22:29:21 <tomsmeding> yotta: System.Posix.Internals.FD is just CInt, and GHC.IO.FD.FD has an fdFD field
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22:32:35 <yotta> I'm talking about GHC.IO.FD.FD. I'm aware of fdFD but FD also have the fdIsNonBlocking constructor. The later wraps around an Int not CInt
22:32:54 <tomsmeding> yotta: that's how haddock renders a record ;)
22:33:06 <tomsmeding> those are two fields of the record; there is just one constructor, called FD
22:33:21 <yotta> oh, my mistake
22:34:30 <mauke> how is that not a boolean
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22:34:55 <Axman6> True, False, NullPointerException
22:35:09 <mauke> isNonBlocking fd = fdIsNonBlocking fd /= 0
22:35:15 <mauke> ö_ö
22:35:15 <Axman6> wait, that's Java's bool
22:37:09 <Rembane> NullPointerException is a very long name for _|_
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23:49:40 <EvanR> except and unless some jackass is unironically catching NullPointerExceptions
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All times are in UTC on 2024-01-23.