Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-02-02 (liberachat/#haskell)

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01:03:51 <johnw> it sounds like the forall k was over the function, not the argument
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08:41:23 <cheater> is there a way in the runtime to say "give me a list of all strings you know of"?
08:41:34 <cheater> or "all bytestring", "all floats" etc
08:44:55 <c_wraith> it really doesn't keep type information around for ordinary data types.
08:45:36 <cheater> hmm right that's true, what about "give me all things that have the shape of a bytestring and cast them to bytestrings"?
08:46:40 <c_wraith> you might be able to find all the ByteArray# values, and guess which of them correspond to bytestrings.
08:46:50 <c_wraith> I don't remember if those are tracked specially.
08:47:13 <cheater> oh, i'd probably be fine just getting *all* of them and just interpreting them as bytestrings
08:47:35 <cheater> same with texts or strings
08:47:54 <cheater> how would i go about "tell me all ByteArray# values"?
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08:52:00 <kuribas> cheater: you mean, in a module? There could be some template haskell function to do that. But then the question is why?
08:52:26 <kuribas> sounds rather XY problem-ish.
08:53:30 <cheater> no, i mean in the runtime.
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08:57:02 <cheater> as in, what's in memory, right now, while the program is running.
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09:23:16 <tomsmeding> shot in the dark, but: ghc-debug?
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09:45:36 <yotta> is it possible to pin unpinned bytearray ?
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10:14:23 <lyxia> this comment in bytestring suggests that there are different representations for "shared" and "unshared" bytestrings. Does anyone have a clue what this is talking about? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.12.0.2/docs/Data-ByteString-Short.html#g:2
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10:17:00 <lyxia> afaik ByteString is a ForeignPtr and a length, and I don't see what could be "shared" about that
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10:19:26 <danse-nr3> hmm... this https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-plain-0.1.0.2/docs/Data-ByteString-Plain.html is also referencing "shared" ByteString
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10:20:55 <danse-nr3> maybe the fromStrict doc gives some clues? "If possible, the internally used MutableByteArray# is shared with the original ByteString in which case the conversion is cheap."
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10:47:47 <tomsmeding> lyxia: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bytestring-0.10.4.0/docs/src/Data-ByteString-Internal.html#ByteString
10:47:51 <tomsmeding> note the age of 0.10.4.0
10:47:57 <tomsmeding> that's the first version that had Data.ByteString.Short
10:48:12 <tomsmeding> back then, strict ByteString was ForeignPtr + offset + length
10:48:20 <tomsmeding> I suspect the comment you're talking about is outdated :p
10:49:16 <danse-nr3> maybe send an issue about that then lyxia, otherwise the next one stumbling upon that will be equally puzzled
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12:30:10 <carbolymer> cabal haddock --haddock-hoogle should generate hoogle database right? I cna't find any '*.hoo' files after that command
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13:41:08 <lyxia> tomsmeding: the difference to now is just the lack of an offset though, so I don't see how that comment would apply back then and not now
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13:42:10 <lyxia> danse-nr3: I did ask about it, bodigrim has no idea either. I'm asking because I want to fix the comment :)
13:42:12 <tomsmeding> lyxia: perhaps when there was an offset, two bytestrings could share the same ForeignPtr, thus taking up less memory than having two separate ForeignPtrs
13:42:39 <lyxia> ah, that could be it
13:42:50 <tomsmeding> I haven't done the computations, so please check all that I say
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13:43:20 <lyxia> that would be the 4 words of the extra ByteString constructor indeed
13:44:05 <tomsmeding> they would be separate ByteString constructors anyway, right?
13:44:12 <tomsmeding> just shared or unshared ForeignPtrs
13:44:17 <lyxia> oh yeah
13:44:25 <tomsmeding> dunno how large a ForeignPtr is
13:48:36 <probie> It probably depends on how many finalizers are attached to it (unless you want to count those separately)
13:49:16 <tomsmeding> presumably the assumption is that it's allocated by the bytestring library, meaning that there's probably exactly one finaliser attached
13:59:45 <probie> (I haven't actually looked at what bytestring does, so take this with a grain of salt) Probably 0 finalizers, and you'll end up with `ForeignPtr someUnboxedAddress (PlainPtr someMutableByteArrayAtTheSameAddress)`
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14:33:46 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> what does `listThreads` from `GHC.Conc` actually list?
14:33:53 <haskellbridge> 15<J​ade> because in ghci the output seems to grow continously
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14:37:27 <danse-nr3> not sure i do not seem to have that in my machine
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14:46:12 <int-e> It looks like if you `listThreads` repeatedly, the result (`it`) will keep the threads alive. With `ghci -fno-it` the list grows a bit until GC kicks in and collects inactive threads with no reference to them (thread ids act as references, I think)
14:47:30 <int-e> "inactive" - finished, that is.
14:48:44 <danse-nr3> @hoogle (Foldable f, Semigroup s) => f (s a) -> f a
14:48:44 <lambdabot> No results found
14:49:07 <Hecate> y'all
14:49:14 <Hecate> read this: https://hexdocs.pm/elixir/compatibility-and-deprecations.html#deprecations
14:49:28 <Hecate> amazing, a language whose culture include a clear and actionable deprecation policy
14:49:42 <Hecate> predictible ecosystem changes!
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14:51:03 <int-e> Hecate: Predictable, hmm. So when will they make a 2.0 or 2.1 release? :-P
14:51:43 <Hecate> int-e: when they break shit up in a major way
14:51:56 <int-e> (And which deprecated features will they keep when that happens? :-P)
14:52:13 <Hecate> int-e: https://github.com/elixir-lang/elixir/milestone/19
14:52:39 <int-e> "No due date"
14:53:43 <Hecate> int-e: yes but look at the items
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14:54:05 <Hecate> in truth there are some changes that have been deemed to be disturbing enough that this would warrant an inclusion in a v2
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14:57:16 <int-e> Anyway. It's a policy, but I'm wondering how close it is to "we'll depreceate features but never remove them".
14:58:16 <int-e> And the answer to that seems to be... you won't know until it happens. You'll have some warning if you actually follow Elixir's development.
14:59:12 <Hecate> warnings are good
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15:09:48 <tomsmeding> danse-nr3: what would that return if the foldable is empty
15:10:38 <danse-nr3> an empty foldable?
15:11:56 <danse-nr3> real problem seemed to be how to turn a semigroup to a. I think i was looking for Foldable1
15:17:27 <ski> @kind Semigroup -- danse-nr3
15:17:29 <lambdabot> * -> Constraint
15:17:50 <danse-nr3> so?
15:18:11 <ski> `s a' makes no sense, if `Semigroup s'
15:18:37 <danse-nr3> ^^;
15:19:51 <ski> i guess, by `Foldable1', you mean one working on non-empty collections, rather than one working on some kind of higher-order collection (cf. `Eq1')
15:21:18 <danse-nr3> yes i found it in semigroupoids. So my Semigroup a was a Foldable1 actually
15:21:30 <danse-nr3> Foldable1 a
15:25:55 <danse-nr3> thanks ski had not noticed that
15:28:04 <ncf> so you have a Foldable of Foldable1 of as, and you want a Foldable of as?
15:28:50 <danse-nr3> yep, did that with a maybe and fold1
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15:30:00 <danse-nr3> but actually i needed a [e] coming from [NonEmpty e] so solved with toList
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15:36:48 <ski> danse-nr3 : yea .. which makes me wonder what you actually intended, in place of that
15:37:50 <danse-nr3> something like
15:37:54 <danse-nr3> @hoogle (Foldable f, Foldable1 s) => f (s a) -> f a
15:37:55 <lambdabot> No results found
15:38:21 <danse-nr3> but now that i solved the concrete problem i have less steam to think that through in class terms
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15:40:27 <tomsmeding> I don't think you can have that signature in general
15:40:57 <tomsmeding> no reason for f to allow the full set of results as elements
15:41:08 <tomsmeding> e.g. a vector of length 5 is also Foldable
15:41:41 <tomsmeding> in this case you could `foldMap toList` or `toList . fold`
15:42:37 <danse-nr3> i don't follow you, i am afraid
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15:51:12 <ski> > let fragments :: MonadPlus m => [a] -> m [NonEmptyList a]; fragments [ ] = return []; fragments (x:xs) = do yss <- fragments xs; return (NonEmpty [x] : yss) `mplus` case yss of NonEmpty ys:yss -> return (NonEmpty (x:ys):yss); [] -> mzero in (map . map) getNonEmpty (fragments "abcd") :: [[String]]
15:51:14 <lambdabot> [["a","b","c","d"],["ab","c","d"],["a","bc","d"],["abc","d"],["a","b","cd"],...
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21:15:36 <tomsmeding> in what way is 'x `seq` return () :: IO ()' different from 'evaluate x >> return ()'?
21:16:33 <tomsmeding> I have often blissfully used the former, but now my benchmark consistently measured at ~0 seconds despite it actually taking a long time; using the latter ('evaluate') fixed it
21:16:53 <tomsmeding> is there a good explanation for this?
21:17:02 <beogrif> would an exception thrown in the seq one bubble up through the IO monad like evaluate would?
21:17:30 <tomsmeding> this code doesn't throw exceptions (at least not in my experiments); I'm not terribly interested in the behaviour around exceptions
21:17:32 <tomsmeding> but good point
21:17:56 <beogrif> yeah, I do wonder if perhaps it generates different exception handling code though in either case
21:18:01 <monochrom> The doc shows an example. But it is a pretty rare case.
21:18:48 <tomsmeding> monochrom: note that I'm not doing 'return (x `seq` ())', I'm doing 'x `seq` return ()'
21:18:55 <tomsmeding> and also that the code in question doesn't throw exceptions
21:19:17 <tomsmeding> (if you were referring to the haddocks of 'evaluate')
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21:21:06 <monochrom> Then there is a theoretical difference that I don't know how often it shows up in practice. (I don't usually scaremonger about this.) Basically similar to seq vs pseq. seq does not guarantee "right now", only "soon enough". evaluate guarantees right now.
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21:22:18 <monochrom> Or rather, seq just marks "strict in this" and let the optimizer make its choice.
21:22:34 <tomsmeding> right
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21:22:47 <tomsmeding> naive intuitive semantics of seq strike again
21:23:23 <monochrom> Of course 99% of the time it means "evaluate now" anyway so I don't like to emphasize the difference.
21:23:35 <tomsmeding> maybe this is a case where it matters!
21:24:20 <tomsmeding> I see that 'evaluate' doesn't use 'seq', it uses 'seq#', whatever that may do
21:24:33 <tomsmeding> ah, it's the fseq of https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/2273 except in IO
21:24:43 <tomsmeding> which is also suitable because the state monad has a continuation in there
21:24:57 <tomsmeding> okay I officially hate seq now and will cease using it
21:25:10 <tomsmeding> (this includes deepseq, which this question was really about)
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21:26:09 <tomsmeding> seq is a design mistake
21:26:22 <monochrom> I am a nice and accomodating person towards computers. If I just mean "it is more efficient if you evaluate this earlier, but this is just a hint", I use seq, I don't need the strong guarantee of evaluate or pseq.
21:26:50 <tomsmeding> right
21:26:59 <tomsmeding> well at the very least it has a bad name, then
21:26:59 <monochrom> If I do need the strong guarantee of evaluate (as in "I need the precise exception"), then I use evaluate.
21:27:21 <tomsmeding> or as in "I need my benchmark framework to see this work between its timing points"
21:27:43 <monochrom> I think it was a good name but bad revisionist semantics.
21:28:30 <monochrom> It's called "seq" because John Hughes invented it to really mean "seq" because only when you kill lazy evaluation do you get the memory-saving benefit of foldl'
21:29:09 <monochrom> But things went south when people realized that the Haskell Report cannot even talk about evaluation orders.
21:30:07 <monochrom> OTOH I'm OK with "don't be a control freak backseat driver to the optimizer; give strictness hints and let the optimizer consider all factors".
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21:31:22 <monochrom> Bird called it "strict" in his book. Maybe that's a good name under the revisionist history.
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21:32:07 <monochrom> But it is a bad name in the context of that chapter because it uses evaluation orders not denotational semantics.
21:32:28 <monochrom> (It explains why foldl' saves memory. Denotational semantic cannot tell you that.)
21:33:47 <tomsmeding> "strict" feels like a more appropriate name, indeed
21:34:02 <tomsmeding> and apparently (?) ghc treats it like "strict", not like "seq"
21:34:30 <monochrom> "strict" would be a good name in the Haskell Report and when we say "seq is a strictness hint".
21:34:53 <monochrom> But I still don't like "strict vs lazy". Level mismatch.
21:35:32 <johnw> so true monochrom
21:35:56 <monochrom> But since even Bird wrote like that, it's a lost cause. People worship opinion leaders.
21:36:02 <monochrom> To hell with opinion leaders.
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21:38:05 <tomsmeding> monochrom: because it's strict vs non-strict on the semantics level, and lazy is an evaluation strategy?
21:38:16 <johnw> indeed
21:38:19 <monochrom> Right.
21:38:21 <johnw> strict has a mathematical definition
21:38:31 <johnw> lazy is one way of doing it
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21:39:41 <johnw> reminds me of a presentation I was watching last week about "functions", where I quickly realized he wasn't really talking about functions, but the code sequences that processors execute -- even though it was a Haskell talk!
21:40:00 <johnw> levels, people
21:40:18 <tomsmeding> that just sounds like a terminology clash
21:42:07 <tomsmeding> as in, when talking about assembly, one also often talks about "functions", but those are indeed of course different things from "functions" in the haskell language
21:42:31 <johnw> I was just expecting him to say things about mathematical functions
21:44:22 <monochrom> It's a Haskell talk so one should not say "function" for machine code!
21:45:01 <tomsmeding> can they also not use "label" for labels in assembly code, because we have -XOverloadedLabels?
21:45:16 <johnw> let me restate: the title of the talk led me to believe it was about mathematical functions, but when I started listening I realized it was about operational functions. Not saying you shouldn't use the term for whatever audience you have.
21:45:28 <monochrom> I have -XNoOverloadedLabels so I'm fine. :)
21:45:40 <tomsmeding> right, then the title may have mismatched the audience :)
21:45:59 <geekosaur> -XMassivelyOverloadedLabels
21:45:59 <monochrom> Oh wait. -XOverloadedLabels is license to overload the word "labels", no? >:)
21:46:18 tomsmeding sighs
21:53:25 <johnw> hahaha
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22:24:13 <jackdk> @remember monochrom To hell with opinion leaders.
22:24:14 <lambdabot> It is forever etched in my memory.
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