Logs on 2024-02-10 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:01:42 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
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| 00:12:51 | <energizer> | i guess that's a no |
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| 00:14:00 | <energizer> | cuz that returns an IntOrFloat, not an int or a float |
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| 00:14:37 | <ski> | what would the type of the operation be ? |
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| 00:15:53 | <ski> | you can have it produce a `Dynamic', if you want to .. |
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| 00:16:50 | <energizer> | does Dynamic know that it can only be an int or a float, or does it think the result could be anything? |
| 00:17:29 | <ski> | > fromDynamic (toDyn (1 :: Int)) :: Maybe Int |
| 00:17:31 | <lambdabot> | Just 1 |
| 00:17:43 | <ski> | > fromDynamic (toDyn False) :: Maybe Bool |
| 00:17:45 | <lambdabot> | Just False |
| 00:18:19 | <ski> | but you don't know that, statically, in Python, either |
| 00:18:45 | <energizer> | depends which type system you're using |
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| 00:19:13 | <ski> | if you want guarantee to only have an `Int' or `Float', then `Either' seems reasonable to me |
| 00:19:36 | <ski> | (or `IntOrFloat') |
| 00:20:45 | <ski> | there is no "check type of result", in Haskell. you must already know which type the result is, to be able to get information out of it |
| 00:21:55 | <ski> | ("types don't exist at run-time", is the usual way to express this) |
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| 00:22:28 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> Id ask, when would, the python ecample you gave, be useful? Having a variable be either a float or int randomly sounds like a nightmare (even in python) |
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| 00:25:09 | <energizer> | that is of course just a minimal proof of concept demo |
| 00:26:25 | <ski> | (there is no guarantee that the machine representation for `Int' is disjoint, non-overlapping, from the one for `Float'. iow, there could conceivably be a value of type `Int', and a value of type `Float', which would be represented exactly the same, at the machine level. in that case, it would, even thinking at the level of what's possible in machine code, be impossible to tell those two apart) |
| 00:26:52 | <ski> | it's unclear what you want to express, really |
| 00:27:10 | <ski> | (including how to use it, in that) |
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| 02:14:54 | <meejah> | energizer: at some point, you have to "use the thing" -- that's presumably when you care whether it's a Float or Int, right? (So, at that point you decide ... whether haskell or python) |
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| 02:37:53 | <energizer> | meejah: do i? print(x) works either way |
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| 02:55:18 | <monochrom> | That is why when my university decided to switch from Python to C for a 1st-year course, I supported it. |
| 02:56:19 | <monochrom> | Python simply has too many of these magics that you can take for granted and stop needing critical thinking and become anti-ready for the rest of CS. |
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| 02:58:42 | <meejah> | energizer: well, so would print in haskell .. but what's the point of the example if you don't care about the type? |
| 02:59:19 | <energizer> | and so would printf in C |
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| 03:04:29 | <energizer> | meejah: the example shows a function that returns an instance of either of two types, and continues the program without me having to branch like i would have to for a discriminated union |
| 03:04:34 | <geekosaur> | printf in C very much cares |
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| 03:12:10 | <monochrom> | On the dark side, I recently made an assignment question that said "return true if condition foo, otherwise return a pair of numbers". >:) |
| 03:13:02 | <monochrom> | The question asked for pseudocode only, so I felt that we could be lax about that. |
| 03:13:21 | <monochrom> | But we had good students who asked "what madness is that????!!!" :) |
| 03:13:50 | <int-e> | data DarkerBool = True | False | Pair |
| 03:13:51 | <monochrom> | (So I felt like I brought up "C has union types..." haha) |
| 03:14:22 | <int-e> | . o O ( Or should I name the last one APair ) |
| 03:14:54 | <monochrom> | Since there is no BPair, you don't need APair, just Pair. :) |
| 03:15:50 | <int-e> | But you wanted to return *a* pair. |
| 03:16:51 | <energizer> | i guess TAPL doesnt have union types |
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| 04:23:24 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> sm: I agree, why 'cabal install --lib' hasn't been killed with fire yet is beyond my understanding |
| 04:24:01 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> In general I find a lot of design decisions questionable. XDG was a disaster too. |
| 04:24:26 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> stackage support is half baked |
| 04:24:55 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> There's no clean replacement for cabal sandbox workflow |
| 04:25:03 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> There's no GC |
| 04:27:05 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Installing libraries is one of the main use cases. But people keep saying "create a project and write a cabal.project file". Now you have to know about 'cabal install --lib --package-env=.' to avoid that unnecessary foo |
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| 04:28:36 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> cabal.project format doesn't even have a specification. It's ad-hoc |
| 04:30:45 | <sclv> | we should improve env support until it is a clean sandbox replacement |
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| 04:34:44 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> should we though |
| 04:34:56 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Since cabal is becoming more modular, I think it might make sense to write an alternative cli interface |
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| 04:36:36 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> or port the good bits (solver..) to stack ? |
| 04:36:52 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> That's something I thought about too |
| 04:37:14 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> But I don't like stacks defaults |
| 04:37:32 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> well, that's two of us. It seems to be gaining ground :) |
| 04:38:10 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> (the idea) |
| 04:38:15 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> In a sense, ghcup integrates better with stack now than with cabal ;) |
| 04:38:30 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> cabal still doesn't have any shell hooks |
| 04:38:41 | <sclv> | well my view is the lib approach is 90 percent there so lets make tickets enumerating the issues and fix them |
| 04:39:08 | <sclv> | and if you want a shell hook make a ticket for it, but i don’t know what we would want for it |
| 04:39:15 | <sclv> | or want it for |
| 04:39:37 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> There's already a ticket for it |
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| 04:39:49 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> People have been asking about it many times |
| 04:39:57 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I realise you (both) know cabal much better than I, but do you think that's really possible ? It seems like people have been trying to get there for many years |
| 04:40:34 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/7394 |
| 04:41:20 | <sclv> | just saw that. i bet with the new cabal custom setup redesign they’re working on we can implement shell hooks as a library! |
| 04:43:23 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> sm: the thing is... I find contributing to stack easier, but cabal overall has more development traction |
| 04:44:27 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> but is it reaching the goal of a clean inner & outer design and UX that makes users happy do you think |
| 04:45:07 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> is tech debt going down or is it keeping pace |
| 04:45:21 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> The other problem is the disconnection between stack and Cabal (the library) development, leading to frequent issues |
| 04:45:56 | <sclv> | the tech debt is going down |
| 04:46:28 | <sclv> | its just that every fix has three knock on consequences to obscure use cases so its slow and painful |
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| 04:47:14 | <sclv> | eg someone just did a super nice cleanup to a feature that seemed weird and unused and it turned out there was a single user — but it was hls! so it had to be reverted |
| 04:47:16 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> stack codebase is magnitudes cleaner than cabal-install imo. Most of the dragons are in pantry. |
| 04:47:27 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> I don't understand why they designed it at all |
| 04:47:31 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> It's overengineered |
| 04:47:52 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> cabal just uses files and that works well |
| 04:47:55 | <sclv> | pantry? yeh. there was a period where lots of people just fell in love with content addressable stores |
| 04:48:16 | <sclv> | they’re such a fun idea that people just want to put em everywhere |
| 04:48:29 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> That shit is really hard to understand how it interacts with Cabal |
| 04:48:49 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> wasn't the point of that to improve caching and reuse of installed deps |
| 04:49:15 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> I'm not aware it actually made anything faster lol |
| 04:49:28 | <sclv> | pantry? it doesn’t do that. its just another store. it reinvents the filesystem |
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| 04:49:42 | <sclv> | people don’t appreciate how well engineered filesystems are |
| 04:49:57 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Agreed |
| 04:50:17 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I remember first experiencing proper reuse of deps with stack |
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| 04:50:50 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> so it did something right |
| 04:51:03 | <sclv> | stack existed without pantry for years. the cutover didn’t bring new features for end users |
| 04:51:18 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> They implemented nix style store earlier than cabal, that's all |
| 04:51:49 | <sclv> | its not nix style because its a single fixed set |
| 04:51:50 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> when you say nix style.. this is shorthand for content-addressable style right |
| 04:52:13 | <sclv> | pantry actually postdates cabal v2 |
| 04:52:34 | <sclv> | the store in cabal is for installed packages. pantry is a design for the package repo — the source |
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| 04:53:36 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> You can have different versions of one library installed with stack |
| 04:54:35 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> They even used to support the cabal sover via cli or something, but it was removed |
| 04:55:14 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> yes, that was a pity but understandable at the time. Someone should add it back |
| 04:55:55 | <sclv> | right but the different versions are just.. different versions. not nix hashed as far as i know, just like a classic packagedb |
| 04:55:56 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> I'm guessing the API is mostly stable of cabal-install-solver sclv? |
| 04:56:23 | <sclv> | oh yeah solver api very stable and now its a standalone lib even |
| 04:57:02 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> I might take a look at it when I fall sick again and have too much free time 😂 |
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| 04:59:24 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> hope you fall healthy and get a burst of energy instead! |
| 04:59:24 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> It's just the feature surface is so big of those tools. I wish it was more unix style pipeline of many small interfaces. |
| 05:00:14 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> re cabal success.. if inner tech debt is going down that's good, but outer UX debt seems to change at glacial pace. From the outside cabal doesn't seem to take that seriously. |
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| 05:00:46 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> E.g. one executable to create an install plan, another to consume and execute it, etc |
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| 05:00:58 | <sclv> | we need good ux proposals and designs. we mainly get under designed wish lists |
| 05:01:16 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> More like FreeBSD does things, but that also has difficult sides |
| 05:01:31 | <sclv> | and we have engineers as devs, not enough ux contributers |
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| 05:04:50 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> sm: it's hard to change UX fundamentally for something that's in wide use... v1 vs v2 was such an attempt and it did indeed cause a lot of churn |
| 05:07:00 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> That's why I like the idea of alternative projects doing different interfaces. If it doesn't work, the project just dies, if it works, we can deprecate the other or just keep both |
| 05:07:25 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> indeed, more experiments is good! faster evolution |
| 05:07:51 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Trying to retrofit all sorts of ideas onto existing cabal-install UX is just hard |
| 05:07:57 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> modularity++ |
| 05:08:05 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Yeah |
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| 05:13:29 | haskellbridge | <sm> wonders if Cabal and cabal-install manuals should be split |
| 05:13:51 | <sclv> | i would love that |
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| 05:26:54 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I would enjoy doing that, if it were my job. Too big for free work I think |
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| 09:51:14 | <tomsmeding> | okay apparently one cannot unsafeCoerce# between Word# and Double# |
| 09:51:34 | <tomsmeding> | I'm getting ASSEMBLER errors from GHC, that it can't type-check the assembly it's generating |
| 09:52:03 | <tomsmeding> | er, not from GHC, from the assembler, I guess |
| 09:52:45 | <tomsmeding> | how _do_ I safely do this, though? I want to reinterpret the bits in a Double as a Word, and vice-versa |
| 09:53:01 | <tomsmeding> | must I alloca and write and read from a Ptr? |
| 09:56:19 | <tomsmeding> | look at this error and savor it https://paste.tomsmeding.com/AofqoE4E |
| 09:56:27 | <c_wraith> | stgWord64ToDouble ? |
| 09:56:42 | <c_wraith> | check out stuff in GHC.Float |
| 09:57:32 | <tomsmeding> | c_wraith: what's the difference between castWord64ToDouble and stgWord64ToDouble |
| 09:57:39 | <tomsmeding> | but thanks, seems that's what I was looking for |
| 09:57:40 | <c_wraith> | the #s |
| 09:57:45 | <tomsmeding> | _oh_ |
| 09:58:01 | <tomsmeding> | yay |
| 09:58:32 | <tomsmeding> | it's not every day you fuck up your haskell code so thoroughly that the assembler won't accept ghc's output :p |
| 09:59:07 | <c_wraith> | IIRC, x86 has different registers for floating-point values. Even when using the modern extensions |
| 09:59:20 | <tomsmeding> | yes that's true |
| 09:59:25 | <tomsmeding> | so it makes sense on reflection |
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| 10:01:56 | <tomsmeding> | (it's also visible in the error: %xmm1 is one of the SSE registers, also use for individual floats, and %rbx is an (integer) general-purpose register; 'cmp' is refusing to operate on mixed inputs here) |
| 10:02:18 | <tomsmeding> | s/cmp/cmpxchg/ |
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| 10:04:16 | <tomsmeding> | yay no more asm type errors |
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| 10:18:02 | <probie> | Even without the different register type issue, you can't safely `unsafeCoerce#` from `Word#` to `Double#`, since a `Word#` may only be 32 bits (e.g. on 32-bit x86 or armv7) but a `Double#` is _always_ 64 bits |
| 10:18:19 | <tomsmeding> | (I did check that sizeOf on Double and Word matches before) |
| 10:18:37 | <tomsmeding> | I specifically need Word because atomicCasWordAddr# is a Word operation |
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| 12:43:04 | <haskellbridge> | <Jade> what are the naming conventions for transformer stacks? |
| 12:43:36 | <haskellbridge> | <Jade> I have `type WhatShouldINameThis e m = IputT (ExceptT e m)` |
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| 12:43:48 | <haskellbridge> | <Jade> s/Iput/Input/ |
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| 12:45:10 | <int-e> | Hmm, they tend to be newtypes rather than type aliases; they tend to end in T for "transformer", and the rest is up to you... the name reflects a purpose you're using it for. |
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| 12:55:25 | <tomsmeding> | AppT |
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| 17:00:37 | <haskellbridge> | <magic_rb> AppT seems to be the go to for "application transformer stacks" |
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| 18:09:38 | <bzm3r> | What happened to the "Essential Haskell Compiler" project? Almost all of its links seem to be dead, except for a GitHub repoistory |
| 18:12:17 | <bzm3r> | Are there alternatives you'd recommend if I am interested in learning how to write a Haskell compiler in a sequence of small steps? |
| 18:13:55 | <geekosaur> | have you looked at https://smunix.github.io/dev.stephendiehl.com/fun/index.html ? |
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| 18:43:49 | <haasn> | is there a way to avoid getting "cannot load module X, it is a member of the hidden package blabla. you can run :set -package bla" without having to manually run "cabal install --lib <nameofpackage>" after every single ghc upgrade? |
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| 18:44:03 | <haasn> | it seems this happens even for packages that should be available system-wide (e.g. managed by system package manager) |
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| 18:44:55 | <haasn> | and it's really rather annoying as I have to do this for 20-30+ packages in order for basic things like xmonad reloading its configuration or even just `ghci` loading my ~/.ghci configuration to work |
| 18:45:14 | <haasn> | I feel like I'm missing something obvious about how this is *supposed* to work |
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| 18:47:10 | <geekosaur> | xmonad is what's missing it, it really wants cabal v1 semantics but that's a big footgun |
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| 18:47:36 | <haasn> | but ghci has the same issue |
| 18:47:45 | <geekosaur> | prob ably the easiest way around it is to use a stack-based setup b ecause xmonad will see the stack.yaml and use it and stack will do the rest |
| 18:47:48 | <haasn> | I wish I could do something like echo ":set -package *" >> ~/.ghci |
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| 18:51:24 | <geekosaur> | That said this sounds weird, anything from the system package manager should be in the global package db and always visible |
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| 18:53:15 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> you probably can do something like that but it will seriously screw up your projects in future when you have forgotten about it |
| 18:53:49 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> ghci's eager inheritance of parent .ghci files is a flaw I think |
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| 18:54:21 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> ghci is too eager to inherit from parent .ghci files I think |
| 18:54:47 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> you probably can do something like that but it will seriously waste your time in future when you have forgotten about it |
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| 18:56:47 | <c_wraith> | haasn: wait, after every *ghc* version change? Library code isn't shared between different versions of GHC, at all. |
| 18:58:00 | <geekosaur> | for cabal install --lib? yes, the environment file will only be valid for a particular ghc version since it points into that ghs version's store |
| 18:58:08 | <geekosaur> | *ghc |
| 18:58:22 | <c_wraith> | but why would it say anything about a hidden package in that case? |
| 18:58:24 | <geekosaur> | oh, I misread |
| 18:58:36 | <c_wraith> | the whole store is going to be for the wrong version of GHC |
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| 18:58:53 | <geekosaur> | I'm also thinking that mixing system-installed packages and cabal-installed packages is problematic |
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| 18:59:21 | <c_wraith> | oh. If they meant "system-managed version of GHC updated"... yikes |
| 18:59:52 | <geekosaur> | (and in fact buggy, per a comment in https://github.com/haskell/cabal/pull/9683) |
| 18:59:56 | <c_wraith> | system-managed versions of GHC are only for building system-level haskell tools. |
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| 19:04:23 | <haasn> | which ghci # /usr/bin/ghci |
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| 19:37:02 | <energizer> | is there a function like fmap but that doesn't necessarily preserve the exact type of the container? |
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| 19:38:26 | <tomsmeding> | energizer: how would that work |
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| 19:40:03 | <bzm3r> | geekosaur yeah, i have, although it seems to have burned out too :( |
| 19:40:29 | <energizer> | like for a unit-step range type (range 1 5) that represents 1,2,3,4,5 and `fleximap \x->x^2 (range 1 5)` that returns [1, 4, 9, 16, 25] because the `range` type can't handle non-uninform steps |
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| 19:41:31 | <tomsmeding> | energizer: with the danger of overfitting to the example: in your example it sounds like you really want to first 1. "weaken" the container to one with more inhabitants (range -> list), then 2. do a normal fmap |
| 19:42:02 | <geekosaur> | stopped being fun for him, I guess |
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| 19:43:18 | <geekosaur> | energizer, note that if the range type has a Foldable instance this would work automatically (since Foldable is basically toList) |
| 19:43:23 | <tomsmeding> | there is this https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/1992/01/student.pdf |
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| 19:43:37 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 19:43:39 | ski | . o O ( `(Foldable f,Unfoldable g) => f a -> g a' ) |
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| 19:43:49 | <tomsmeding> | :t \f -> fmap f . Data.Foldable.toList |
| 19:43:51 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => (a -> b) -> t a -> [b] |
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| 19:46:08 | <energizer> | that parses as `(fmap f) . Data.Foldable.toList`, i take it? |
| 19:46:13 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 19:46:17 | <tomsmeding> | fmap f (toList l) |
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| 19:55:23 | <monochrom> | I would prefer overfitting than overgeneralizing. |
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| 19:55:36 | <monochrom> | Ugh English is hard. s/than/to/ |
| 19:56:55 | <monochrom> | In a math channel I saw the ultimate epitome "Hi, how do I solve equations?" (Eventually, we found out that they just needed the likes of 3x+4=1) |
| 19:57:15 | <monochrom> | I would really rather they just said "3x+4=1" in the first place. |
| 19:58:06 | <tomsmeding> | well, they probably didn't know there was a world more in the word "equation" then they had seen yet :) |
| 19:58:25 | <tomsmeding> | *than |
| 20:00:04 | <darkling> | TBH, I'd probably have started from that point, as most people with more complicated equations to solve probably know enough to ask the more specific question. :) |
| 20:00:19 | <monochrom> | I can sympathize with that. The corollary is then we answerers never answer the 1st question. We always ask back "what do you really mean? do you have an example?" |
| 20:00:46 | <monochrom> | And then I would rather provide a solution that overfits that example than rabbit-hole generalize. KISS. |
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| 20:00:53 | <tomsmeding> | is that bad? |
| 20:00:59 | <tomsmeding> | oh right, you weren't saying it is |
| 20:01:22 | <[exa]> | there's a very interesting interplay of that rule (very pragmatic!) with "don't ask to ask just ask" (also very pragmatic!) |
| 20:01:29 | <tomsmeding> | if they were really asking the question in full generality, you'll find out soon enough after asking for an example :p |
| 20:01:55 | <monochrom> | [exa]: Have you heard my "don't answer to answer, just don't answer"? >:) |
| 20:02:05 | monochrom | is great at dualities! |
| 20:02:26 | tomsmeding | is unsure how to apply that one |
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| 20:03:02 | <monochrom> | Oh that's easy. If someone asks "hi can I ask a question? ne1 here?", give them absolute silence. |
| 20:03:05 | <[exa]> | monochrom: lol |
| 20:03:48 | tomsmeding | needed like 20 seconds to parse 'ne1' |
| 20:04:23 | <tomsmeding> | my first mental fix was 'en1', but I quickly discarded that as inappropriate |
| 20:04:24 | <monochrom> | I guess all the kids who once wrote "ne1" are now grown-up and have real lives. |
| 20:04:58 | <monochrom> | Remember "a/s/l?"? >:) |
| 20:05:12 | tomsmeding | is probably too young |
| 20:05:38 | <monochrom> | It meant "hi what's your age? gender? location?" |
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| 20:05:41 | <geekosaur> | I'm in a channel where it's still regularly used 🙂 |
| 20:05:47 | <geekosaur> | (ne1, not asl) |
| 20:05:56 | ski | 's replied "lsr" to that |
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| 20:06:23 | <ski> | ("arithmetical shift left","logical shift right") |
| 20:06:45 | <tomsmeding> | I've always seen those as sal and slr though |
| 20:07:03 | <ski> | 6502 |
| 20:07:06 | <tomsmeding> | not that the acronyms make any sense that way, but who said that ISAs needed to make any sense |
| 20:07:08 | <tomsmeding> | ah |
| 20:07:39 | <mauke> | "my other car is a cdr" |
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| 20:35:34 | <cheater> | hello |
| 20:35:46 | <cheater> | can someone upload some interesting haskell blackboards https://www.reddit.com/r/Blackboards |
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| 22:19:17 | <energizer> | what are some Functors that arent Foldable |
| 22:22:28 | <dsal> | IO |
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| 22:23:26 | <ski> | `(rho ->)',`Cont o',`Coyoneda f',`Codensity f' |
| 22:24:12 | <energizer> | anything more accessible ski |
| 22:24:25 | <int-e> | (r ->) is very accessible? |
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| 22:26:42 | <c_wraith> | three of those are essentially the same thing - the type variable only appears in the result of a function stored in the data type |
| 22:27:14 | <c_wraith> | Coyoneda, on the other hand, is complicated existential nonsense :) |
| 22:27:38 | <c_wraith> | But that also brings up... State |
| 22:27:49 | <c_wraith> | And of course, Reader r is the same as (r ->) |
| 22:29:06 | <int-e> | c_wraith: (a -> r) -> r <-- I wouldn't say that `a` appears in the result here :P |
| 22:29:14 | <int-e> | (which is Cont r) |
| 22:29:32 | <c_wraith> | eh. it's positive, but sure. |
| 22:29:41 | <ncf> | Coyoneda f is Foldable iff f is, innit |
| 22:31:08 | <ncf> | also this is probably silly but what's wrong with Foldable (Cont o) where toList k = k (:[]) |
| 22:32:05 | <ncf> | what are the Foldable laws again |
| 22:32:13 | <int-e> | ncf: it doesn't type-check |
| 22:32:26 | <int-e> | (you don't get to pick o) |
| 22:32:27 | <ski> | hm, i suppose that works, for `Coyoneda f' |
| 22:32:39 | <ncf> | oh right |
| 22:32:49 | <ncf> | what's the version where o is universal called |
| 22:33:32 | <int-e> | I'm not sure, would that be Codensity Id? |
| 22:33:36 | <ncf> | ye |
| 22:33:52 | <int-e> | s/Id/Identity/ |
| 22:35:01 | <c_wraith> | Honestly, I think Reader and State are the best "simple" examples |
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| 22:35:25 | <ncf> | or Yoneda Identity |
| 22:35:41 | <ski> | something like `Finite rho => Foldable (rho ->)' works, i suppose |
| 22:39:10 | <ncf> | i guess if Foldable doesn't have any laws then toList _ = [] always works... |
| 22:40:07 | <int-e> | > length (1,2,3) |
| 22:40:09 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 22:40:09 | <lambdabot> | • No instance for (Foldable ((,,) Integer Integer)) |
| 22:40:09 | <lambdabot> | arising from a use of ‘length’ |
| 22:40:19 | <int-e> | ah. |
| 22:40:22 | <int-e> | > length (1,2) |
| 22:40:23 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 22:40:52 | <int-e> | I forgot that that particular "madness" is limited. |
| 22:41:56 | <ncf> | i don't know why people think this is madness. surely you don't expect length ("a", 1) to be 2 if it is to work on a uniform container |
| 22:43:07 | <ncf> | python brain damage i suppose |
| 22:43:30 | <int-e> | ncf: I'd still rather have a type error. |
| 22:44:22 | <ncf> | why? |
| 22:44:42 | <geekosaur> | because it's pretty much never what I intend |
| 22:44:52 | <int-e> | Because while I understand how the length becomes 1, I see a pair as having length 2. |
| 22:45:04 | <int-e> | Or no length at all. |
| 22:45:48 | <ncf> | so should (e,) just not be Foldable? that's silly |
| 22:47:22 | <geekosaur> | I would be happier if it weren't, because from a practical as opposed to theoretical POV it's almost always a mistake |
| 22:47:23 | <int-e> | Well I don't have a use for that instance and it confuses me. YMMV. |
| 22:48:33 | <geekosaur> | if I want it for some reason I could import it, as with Text.Show.Functions etc. |
| 22:49:07 | <int-e> | (IIRC people find it useful in the context of lens, but I forgot why, or why they have to use (,) instead of a custom pair type) |
| 22:49:35 | <int-e> | Anyway. None of this will remove the existing instance... it's just an opinion. |
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| 22:52:33 | <c_wraith> | But I want to be able to traverse over a tuple. That's almost never a bug. |
| 22:53:45 | <c_wraith> | there's a tension there with no good resolution. Traversable is sufficient to implement Foldable, but it sometimes makes more sense than Foldable |
| 22:56:11 | <ncf> | no it doesn't |
| 22:57:27 | <monochrom> | I like the opt-in import-if-you-want idea. |
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| 23:10:05 | <Axman6> | 3/exit |
| 23:10:15 | <Axman6> | oops... goodbye! |
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| 23:33:30 | <energizer> | why does length (1,2) give 1? |
| 23:34:55 | <c_wraith> | Types |
| 23:35:02 | <c_wraith> | :t length |
| 23:35:03 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => t a -> Int |
| 23:35:34 | <energizer> | so we have a Foldable and length returns an Int. so far so good |
| 23:35:44 | <energizer> | why is that Int 1 |
| 23:35:54 | <c_wraith> | If you match that `t a` against `(,) b c` you get (t ~ ((,) b) and (a ~ c) |
| 23:36:15 | <c_wraith> | How many values of type c are there in a (b, c) value? |
| 23:38:14 | <c_wraith> | err, (t ~ ((,) b)) if I count my closing parens properly |
| 23:40:06 | <energizer> | oh that's pretty strange |
| 23:40:13 | <c_wraith> | length in terms of foldable gives the same result as (length . toList) does |
| 23:40:40 | <c_wraith> | > toList ("foo", False) |
| 23:40:41 | <lambdabot> | [False] |
| 23:41:08 | <energizer> | yeah that's just an unusual definition of , |
| 23:41:59 | <c_wraith> | It's more or less what you have to end up with if you follow the types and keep things as simple as you can. |
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| 23:46:23 | <energizer> | > foldr1 (+) (1,2) |
| 23:46:24 | <lambdabot> | 2 |
| 23:48:22 | <probie> | Is there a law for `Foldable` involving `length`? |
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| 23:49:58 | <probie> | `foldl' (+) 0 (1,2)` is necessarily 1, but given that a `Foldable` can define its own length, what's stopping it from being 2? |
| 23:50:22 | <yushyin> | "The length method must agree with a foldMap mapping each element to Sum 1" -- https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.0.0/docs/Data-Foldable.html#laws |
| 23:50:28 | <probie> | sadness |
| 23:52:19 | <dsal> | > foldr1 (+) ('a', 1) |
| 23:52:21 | <lambdabot> | 1 |
| 23:53:03 | <dsal> | There's not much else that could do other than refuse to compile which would be kind. |
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| 23:55:42 | <[Leary]> | Apart from one optional law relating to Functor, the Foldable laws seem to just be coherence conditions ensuring that the secondary methods have the expected semantics relative to `foldMap`; the actual core of Foldable is virtually unconstrained. It would be completely lawful to write `instance Foldable ((,) a) where foldMap f (_, x) = f x <> f x` and obtain `length (1, 2) = 2`. |
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| 23:56:53 | <c_wraith> | Yes, but then that instance would not be consistent with a lawful Traversable instance |
| 23:56:59 | <c_wraith> | which does in fact have more laws |
| 23:57:20 | <c_wraith> | and it's sort of expected that if you have a Traversable instance, your Foldable instance is consistent with it |
| 23:58:19 | <monochrom> | Javascript insists that sum ("1", 1) = 2 >:) |
| 23:58:27 | <ncf> | c_wraith: oh i guess that's true |
| 23:59:58 | <c_wraith> | I'm really not sure Traversable should have a Foldable requirement. There are a lot of cases where I want traverse or sequenceA where I think the consistent Foldable instance is sort of silly |
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