Logs on 2024-02-17 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 07:40:43 | <Lycurgus> | I wonder about the relation, if any, between the Alloy hs pkg and the specification lang of that name |
| 07:43:35 | <Lycurgus> | insofar as there is a semantic overlap between generic programming and executable/model checking specifications |
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| 08:03:25 | <Lycurgus> | to be clear, not referring to call-alloy which is a binding for the spec lang |
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| 08:13:07 | <Lycurgus> | convergent name evolution i presume on the basis of the alloy conceit, a merger of logic/models and code |
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| 20:55:14 | <ncf> | ski, irregularsphere: i'm silly, of course the converse implication doesn't hold: Maybe is idempotent in ski's sense, but is not an idempotent monad (Maybe (Maybe a) is not isomorphic to Maybe a in general) |
| 20:57:23 | <ncf> | i've also seen edwardk use "idempotent monad" to mean "idempotent applicative" here https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/b7xsp1/comment/ejv1n88/ , so i guess the takeaway is that when haskellers say "idempotent monad" they mean something strictly weaker than when category theorists say it |
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| 20:58:54 | <ncf> | also this notion of idempotent applicative is annoyingly ad hoc: there are two notions of "idempotent monoid" that make sense in category theory, but if you see an applicative functor as a monoid wrt day convolution this is neither of them |
| 21:00:08 | <ncf> | 1. if you take "idempotent monoid" to mean "multiplication is iso" (just like for idempotent monads), then what you get is a "strong monoidal functor" (not in the sense of having a strength, but in the sense that (f a, f b) → f (a, b) is an isomorphism) |
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| 21:02:00 | <ncf> | 2. if you take "idempotent monoid" to mean "multiplication ∘ diagonal = id" (so, the categorical analogue of a · a = a) then you need to pick a way to define the diagonal for Day convolution; let's say you pick \a → Day a a snd, then what you get is a condition which duplode shows is different from "idempotent applicative" in this blog post |
| 21:02:01 | <ncf> | https://duplode.github.io/posts/idempotent-applicatives-parametricity-and-a-puzzle.html |
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| 22:02:14 | <dmj`> | is there a library where a parser will simultaneously construct a pretty printer |
| 22:03:21 | <davean> | Yes |
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| 22:03:50 | <dmj`> | davean: does it have a name? |
| 22:04:08 | <davean> | THere are lots of them, its a standardish technique, bidirectionality. |
| 22:05:15 | <dmj`> | davean: do you have a hackage link to one of them? |
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| 22:06:04 | <davean> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/profunctor-monad https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unjson https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bidirectional-0.1.0.0/docs/Data-IParser.html |
| 22:06:16 | <davean> | I mean I wouldn't specificly recomend those |
| 22:06:27 | <davean> | I don't use these techniques myself |
| 22:06:47 | <davean> | Because often I find parsers and generators are divergent |
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| 22:07:52 | <davean> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/roundtrip-0.2.0.7 that links to one of the papers that popularized it |
| 22:08:26 | <dmj`> | davean: Most haskell compiler source I've read do not use this technique, even for the IRs. Curious because it seems like it would save a lot of time. |
| 22:08:35 | <davean> | I tihnk iots a dumb idea |
| 22:08:45 | <davean> | They're probably experienced |
| 22:10:14 | <davean> | I think you'll find the idea falls appart immediately because they simply aren't the same problem |
| 22:11:09 | <davean> | Think about it for a moment, what happens when you have a slightly new version? Do you want to generate the optional whitespace? Etc |
| 22:11:30 | <davean> | You'll do a bad job of one of the sides |
| 22:11:53 | <davean> | and it'll end up more complicated in the end because you have to deal with the other code paths than the ones you're currently working with |
| 22:11:55 | <davean> | its just bad |
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| 22:16:36 | <dmj`> | davean: To your example, it depends if you lex away the whitespace up front. In theory printing is the inverse of parsing. Haskell for example becomes whitespace insensitive. In that case printing would become formatting as well. Ideally a function could be produced that takes the AST and layout options on how you'd like to pretty print. |
| 22:17:20 | <dmj`> | but yes you'd lose bidirectionality |
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