Logs on 2024-02-19 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 05:57:00 | <probie> | Does anyone here have strong opinions on xml parsers? |
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| 06:29:57 | <jackdk> | xml-conduit is fine and less conduity than you might expect from the name |
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| 07:00:40 | <probie> | xml-conduit seems especially convenient given that I get my xml documents from a conduit |
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| 11:31:04 | <cheater> | what is that succint term again for how in haskell you can write abstractions that don't impact runtime performance |
| 11:31:13 | <cheater> | something-free abstractions? |
| 11:31:29 | <cheater> | zero-cost abstractions. that's it |
| 11:31:29 | <ncf> | zero-cost? |
| 11:31:39 | <cheater> | yep thx |
| 11:32:02 | ncf | . o O ( zero-cost monads ) |
| 11:32:25 | <danse-nr3> | more a thing in rust than in haskell i am afraid |
| 11:32:29 | <cheater> | HVM purports to make free monads much less expensive due to its naturally-applicable semantics |
| 11:33:22 | <Hecate> | danse-nr3: "more" perhaps but we have zero-cost abstractions in Haskell too! Newtypes are zero-cost abstractions |
| 11:34:08 | <danse-nr3> | yup |
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| 11:39:11 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> danse-nr3: also from what i've seen isn't the haskell folk more concerned about type correctness than performance and safety and stuff |
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| 11:40:21 | <danse-nr3> | huh? Not sure what you mean. "Type correctness" and safety are almost synonyms to me |
| 11:42:12 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> type correctness as in "this value and this function will never go bottom" or that sort of stuff |
| 11:42:53 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> ...and rust's safety is to avoid segfaults, use-after-free, etc |
| 11:43:17 | <EvanR> | zero cost abstraction is buzzjargon from C++ and rust. While haskell has zero cost abstractions you don't hear that jargon a lot xD |
| 11:43:36 | <danse-nr3> | actually haskell enables things to go to bottom quite conveniently, to the point that i mean to learn to code with more bottoms |
| 11:43:48 | <EvanR> | another example are rewrite rules which cause a chain of operations to not exist |
| 11:44:16 | <ggVGc> | EvanR: how do you measure the cost of the 20 years of attempting to learn reasoning about GHC and runtime behaviour? |
| 11:44:23 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> danse-nr3: (... I thought that's unconventional) |
| 11:44:32 | <EvanR> | zero cost, I never learned it |
| 11:44:44 | <EvanR> | in 20 years |
| 11:44:50 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> EvanR: ...expected haskell to have zero cost abstractions to be honest |
| 11:45:28 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> even better `[a]`s are iterators by nature |
| 11:46:12 | <EvanR> | by default list will be highly non-zero cost |
| 11:46:26 | <danse-nr3> | i don't mean just purposely adding bottoms, but rather leveraging the meaning of bottoms. I think i stumbled upon some post where bottoms where initially introduced then removed while refining the types or something akin, but i really do not remember the context |
| 11:46:42 | <EvanR> | but you hope to get optimizations in a nest of list operations |
| 11:46:52 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> danse-nr3: oh, you mean putting `undefined` in function definitions as a sort of to-do? |
| 11:47:14 | <danse-nr3> | not really but nevermind, i do not really recall |
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| 11:55:01 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> EvanR: ...kind of like iterators |
| 11:55:57 | <EvanR> | yeah so that's an average cost above zero |
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| 11:56:44 | <EvanR> | in used car or TV salesperson language, zero-cost* |
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| 12:17:36 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> Does anyone know a way to get hlint to warn on all list comprehensions? |
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| 14:57:09 | <cheater> | is there a way where i can take some simple haskell functions (or core) and symbolically "solve for variables"? eg i have f x y = x+y, i know f x y = 2, i know y = 3, solve for x |
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| 15:00:07 | <ncf> | algebra? |
| 15:00:15 | <kuribas> | cheater: I wrote a solver that works like metafont. |
| 15:00:31 | <kuribas> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mfsolve |
| 15:00:33 | <cheater> | idk what metafont is |
| 15:00:39 | <cheater> | do you know of g2? i just stumbled upon it. |
| 15:01:05 | <cheater> | also i'm not just talking about math |
| 15:01:09 | <kuribas> | cheater: do you know (La)TeX? |
| 15:01:15 | <cheater> | i know of it |
| 15:01:22 | <kuribas> | Metafont is the companion app to design fonts by Donald Knuth. |
| 15:01:29 | <kuribas> | It has an builtin solver. |
| 15:01:36 | <cheater> | so i'm not talking about solving math problems |
| 15:01:40 | <cheater> | so i'm talking about stuff like general symbolic execution / manipulation of haskell code |
| 15:01:59 | <kuribas> | cheater: that would be intractable in general, no? |
| 15:02:05 | <kuribas> | maybe you want to look at prolog... |
| 15:02:20 | <cheater> | i'm not talking about the general case. i'm talking about such a case that this is tractable |
| 15:02:29 | <kuribas> | And how do you define tractable? |
| 15:02:53 | <cheater> | the opposite of what makes you go down the path in this conversation where you start talking about the halting problem which is a conversation that i don't want to have |
| 15:03:09 | <kuribas> | good luck with that. |
| 15:03:22 | <cheater> | so you're hell bent on mentioning the halting problem, no matter what? |
| 15:03:47 | <kuribas> | nope, I asked you to give your definition of "tractable". |
| 15:03:56 | <cheater> | it doesn't matter |
| 15:04:00 | <kuribas> | It sure does. |
| 15:04:10 | <cheater> | ok, can you skip that part of the conversation or bow out? |
| 15:04:10 | <kuribas> | If you want a tractable subset, you need to define it. |
| 15:04:17 | <cheater> | either or |
| 15:04:28 | <cheater> | anyways, what i'm talking about is, say, f x = case x of True -> Blah; False -> Buzz we know f x = Buzz, solve for x. that sort of thing. |
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| 15:05:08 | <kuribas> | cheater: well, if you don't care about the specifics, then just NO. |
| 15:05:13 | <cheater> | ok homie |
| 15:05:34 | <cheater> | so anyways, i wonder if ghc, when compiling, has a nice intermediate representation where symbolic manipulation is ergonomic |
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| 15:07:03 | <kuribas> | cheater: why would it? |
| 15:07:23 | <cheater> | plz don't make me put you on ignore |
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| 15:07:40 | <kuribas> | fell free :) |
| 15:07:45 | <kuribas> | feel free :) |
| 15:08:17 | <kuribas> | "I want magic". "Magic doesn't exist". "I hate you" :-) |
| 15:08:26 | <cheater> | jesus fuck dude no one wants to listen to this |
| 15:09:32 | <danse-nr3> | "jesus fuck" is new to me |
| 15:09:59 | <ncf> | it's a nickname. his full name is jesus fucking christ |
| 15:10:04 | <cheater> | ^ |
| 15:10:43 | <ncf> | are you looking for template haskell? |
| 15:10:48 | <int-e> | Hmm, can SBV produce witnesses for existential statements? |
| 15:11:16 | <cheater> | ncf, hmm... i don't think TH can take a function that is defined outside of a $(), right? |
| 15:11:17 | <int-e> | In any case that's something that might just be magical enough. |
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| 15:11:39 | <kuribas> | int-e: no, because he wants it to work on "any" haskell code. |
| 15:11:59 | <cheater> | plz don't talk for me |
| 15:12:00 | <int-e> | Well obviously it won't ever be more than a best effort. |
| 15:12:08 | <cheater> | right int-e |
| 15:12:36 | <int-e> | (blah Rice blah) |
| 15:13:07 | <ncf> | henry gordon fucking rice |
| 15:13:14 | <cheater> | say my name |
| 15:13:25 | <cheater> | say. my. name. |
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| 15:14:10 | <kuribas> | All solvers are "magic", but no solver can solve all equations. |
| 15:14:23 | <cheater> | we've moved on |
| 15:14:36 | <cheater> | settle down, Old Yeller |
| 15:14:56 | <cheater> | int-e: so i'm not even thinking about the problem of handling a recursive function (even if it provably terminates)... |
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| 15:17:55 | <cheater> | int-e: have you seen my recent article? |
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| 15:20:26 | <cheater> | this is me thinking about the last part |
| 15:24:33 | <int-e> | A glance later... SBV does produce (counter-)examples. So it should work for the initial example above. |
| 15:24:58 | <kuribas> | But SBV could not solve any arbitrary function, could it? |
| 15:25:18 | <kuribas> | Looks more like prolog to me, btw. |
| 15:25:53 | <kuribas> | Because you would need the inverse of other functions as well, like string functions for example. |
| 15:26:43 | <kuribas> | The problem is BS, as is cheater's attitude. |
| 15:27:10 | <kuribas> | Even prolog doesn't provide inverses for all functions. |
| 15:27:26 | <cheater> | you've been told multiple times it's not about "all functions". stop trolling. |
| 15:27:31 | <int-e> | The problem is reasonable if you temper your expectations. |
| 15:27:46 | <cheater> | that guy's just baiting, don't feed it |
| 15:27:58 | <int-e> | glass houses... |
| 15:28:23 | <kuribas> | int-e: but you need a well specified subset. |
| 15:28:37 | <kuribas> | "<kuribas> If you want a tractable subset, you need to define it." |
| 15:28:41 | <int-e> | that depends on what you want |
| 15:30:13 | <kuribas> | I have no clue what cheater wants, other that insulting people who are trying to help? |
| 15:30:19 | <int-e> | SMT solvers tend to have decidable fragments and best effort fragments where some problems will be solved and other will result in "unknown" (or fail to terminate if you do this without a timeout). And they're of practical use. |
| 15:30:53 | <cheater> | kuribas: maybe troll less and you'll get better outcomes from people |
| 15:30:55 | <int-e> | kuribas: You're making rigid assumptions about requirements that may not exist. Cheater is exploding at the lightest hint of a spark. |
| 15:31:07 | <int-e> | It's a perfect match. (Match, get it...) |
| 15:31:07 | <kuribas> | right :) |
| 15:31:22 | <cheater> | i'd say several screens worth of NO BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THIS MY WAY is not the lightest hint of a spark |
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| 15:33:29 | <kuribas> | Anyway, I still think logic programming is the closest thing to what he wants... |
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| 15:34:08 | <kuribas> | Not sure if there are logic programming languages that include symbolic or numeric solvers... |
| 15:34:39 | <kuribas> | maybe this? http://www.staff.city.ac.uk/~jacob/solver/ |
| 15:35:45 | <int-e> | kuribas: s/logic programming/constraint solving/ and SMT solvers are the generic tools in that area. |
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| 15:37:37 | <kuribas> | Perhaps "curry" needs to be mentioned, since it marries haskell and prolog. |
| 15:39:05 | <kuribas> | It has a SAT solver: https://cpm.curry-lang.org/pkgs/clpfd-smt.html |
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| 16:04:49 | <kuribas> | int-e: wait, did you just make a triple word-play? |
| 16:07:26 | <int-e> | triple? not intentionally, no |
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| 16:08:51 | <cheater> | int-e: check out the link i've sent you if you'd like to |
| 16:09:00 | <cheater> | i'm out for a bit |
| 16:11:26 | <kuribas> | int-e: match (1. a stick to light fire 2. to bring together 3. haskell keyword) :) |
| 16:12:41 | int-e | has doubts about 3 (it's a luggage language, I mean trunk, err, case) |
| 16:13:13 | int-e | missed the opportunity to sneak "cargo" in there. |
| 16:13:40 | kuribas | is doing to much Python... |
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| 16:20:40 | <kuribas> | clojure as well... |
| 16:24:18 | <int-e> | Eh, "match" is populat. You can add ML dialects and Rust. |
| 16:24:18 | <int-e> | *popular* |
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| 17:33:31 | <monochrom> | (Belated) Oh great, now "how do I solve equations?" bleeds into #haskell too. >:) |
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| 17:37:43 | <monochrom> | (I am OK with "I don't need the generality that runs into the halting problem". But "I just need what doesn't run into the halting problem" is not helpful either.) |
| 17:37:58 | <monochrom> | (That's right, questions and askers need to be helpful, too.) |
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| 18:16:41 | <cheater> | yeah i mean i just wanted to have an informal conversation, i don't need someone insisting on an in-depth halting problem lecture 25 years after i first heard about it |
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| 18:38:51 | <carter> | @cheater your Reddit post has some fun open ended aspirations. |
| 18:38:51 | <lambdabot> | Unknown command, try @list |
| 18:39:28 | <cheater> | ty carter |
| 18:40:36 | <carter> | Not sure if they’re viable / tractable but that’s a different issue. Certainly some would require a totally different language impl or foundation. But that’s a different thing. Articulating fuzzy ideas well enough that they can be understood by others is hard |
| 18:40:55 | <carter> | I feel like I’ve been failing at that for more than a decade |
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| 18:46:55 | <carter> | I do think that some forms of program synthesis are just automated theorem proving. |
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| 19:07:25 | <cheater> | well, if you have some ideas that you think are good, it's worth putting them out there, even if they seem impossible. |
| 19:07:34 | <cheater> | maybe they're very easy, just not from your point of view. |
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| 19:44:31 | <carter> | Cheater: I may roll out my own analogue to Haskell / agda/ idris in the next year or two. Most of the ideas are pretty simple but getting folks to understand why they matter is hard |
| 19:44:59 | <cheater> | do you think i did a bad job at making people understand why my ideas matter? |
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| 20:26:24 | <probie> | cheater: What are your ideas? |
| 20:27:17 | <cheater> | check msg |
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| 20:35:31 | <probie> | % :doc reverse |
| 20:35:32 | <yahb2> | reverse :: forall a. [a] -> [a] ; -- Identifier defined in ‘GHC.List’ ; 'reverse' @xs@ returns the elements of @xs@ in reverse order. ; @xs@ must be finite. ; ; >>> reverse [] ; [] ; >>> r... |
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| 20:36:04 | <cheater> | yeah that's one i preached for so long that i didn't notice when it got implemented lol |
| 20:36:17 | <cheater> | but i really want a formatted display instead of like a simple output like that |
| 20:36:30 | <cheater> | with bold, underline, that sort of thing |
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| 20:36:51 | <mauke> | > dog reverse |
| 20:36:53 | <lambdabot> | god |
| 20:37:06 | <ncf> | > dog id |
| 20:37:07 | <lambdabot> | dog |
| 20:37:24 | <ncf> | :t dog |
| 20:37:26 | <lambdabot> | ([Char] -> String) -> Expr |
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| 22:10:42 | <carter> | cheater: I think when I skimmed the link from Reddit I naively thought you were saying these would all be nice in ghc. Rather than addressing the architectural implications of each feature and how they may need a different foundation |
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