Logs on 2024-02-23 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:01:15 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> yeah... ...just blame everyone for using english then xD |
| 00:01:42 | <int-e> | or, you know, blame nobody at all :) |
| 00:02:21 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> what a predicament for this conversation |
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| 00:19:32 | <dolio> | Jargon is okay, just learn it. |
| 00:19:49 | <dolio> | But don't hold me to some other field's jargon. |
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| 00:20:50 | <duncan> | dolio: you mentioned alternative names for 'return' above -- there is an alternate name for that function, and it's as arbitrary as return -- the R monad pipeline library calls it 'escape' |
| 00:21:03 | <dolio> | No, I didn't. |
| 00:21:29 | <duncan> | OK, whatever |
| 00:21:44 | <geekosaur> | I think you misunderstood dolio's referent back there |
| 00:22:59 | <duncan> | oh well, it's just IRC innit |
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| 00:31:37 | <EvanR> | yeah I mentioned return and it was mostly a joke, I think return is fine |
| 00:31:51 | <EvanR> | but that position is getting more and more unpopular |
| 00:32:19 | <int-e> | we've reached the point of no return |
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| 00:35:26 | <L29Ah> | pure is the best: two characters less and no urn |
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| 00:51:05 | <duncan> | L29Ah: unless you're in the business of making coffins |
| 00:51:40 | <int-e> | "all sales are final" |
| 01:01:13 | <cheater> | coming up with a good name for return is intractable in general |
| 01:01:21 | <cheater> | due to the halting problem |
| 01:01:26 | <cheater> | maybe you want to look at prolog |
| 01:03:20 | <int-e> | cheater: have you been possessed by Gemma? |
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| 02:02:13 | <probie> | (bad suggestion) Instead of having the confusing return function, we should have `unit :: Monad m => m ()` and write `foo <$ unit` instead of `return foo` or `pure foo`. |
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| 02:34:29 | <zwro> | pure is Applicative though |
| 02:36:12 | <geekosaur> | so? |
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| 02:38:45 | <zwro> | right, it's inconsequent, nvm |
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| 02:40:03 | <dmj`> | are there pedagogical HM(X) style implementations where X includes typeclass constraints |
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| 02:45:00 | <zwro> | why don't we have `IO Void` instead of `IO ()` ? |
| 02:45:27 | <zwro> | wouldn't that be possible? |
| 02:46:41 | <int-e> | to what end? |
| 02:46:51 | <int-e> | Also what exactly is Void here... |
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| 02:46:54 | <Axman6> | that just tells you that it never returns |
| 02:47:08 | <int-e> | :t forever |
| 02:47:09 | <lambdabot> | Applicative f => f a -> f b |
| 02:47:30 | <Axman6> | so you could use the type of a webserver as IO Void I guess |
| 02:48:03 | <int-e> | (forever also expresses that it never returns with the same potential `undefined` escape hatch) |
| 02:49:57 | <zwro> | int-e: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.1.0/docs/Data-Void.html#t:Void |
| 02:50:14 | <Axman6> | I'm pretty sure int-e knows what Void is |
| 02:50:22 | <Axman6> | zwro: why do you think that would be useful? |
| 02:50:43 | <int-e> | Well then `IO Void` instead of `IO ()` aren't the same. The former would be an action that never returns a defined value, which is ugly. |
| 02:50:53 | <zwro> | Axman6: int-e asked me what I meant exactly, I was just clarifying |
| 02:51:08 | <int-e> | yeah |
| 02:51:49 | <Axman6> | ah indeed, sorry |
| 02:52:41 | <int-e> | Axman6: It had a purpose too, I wasn't sure whether zwro knows what the standard definition is; it could've been something made up on the spot. |
| 02:53:19 | <zwro> | int-e: why is it ugly? are there situations where you would use a returned () ? (for IO actions that return "nothing" i mean) |
| 02:54:09 | <geekosaur> | the point is that `IO Void` means "never returns", not "returns nothing" |
| 02:54:17 | <zwro> | i haven't thought this through at all, the idea just came to me |
| 02:54:28 | <geekosaur> | (ignoring `undefined`) |
| 02:55:01 | <zwro> | well, it returns something of type Void, which has no value |
| 02:55:32 | <zwro> | isn't it more consisent to not have a value that we can use? |
| 02:55:44 | <Axman6> | zwro: if something with IO Void ever returned, you would be able to access a value of type Void, so you could do foo >>= print, to print the Void you received, but there are no values of type Void, it is impossible, therefor IO Void must run forever/throw an exception |
| 02:55:47 | <geekosaur> | if it has no values, how can it return a value? |
| 02:56:31 | <int-e> | You might want to pass the IO action to a polymorphic function that forces the returned result... that's a no-op with () but would crash the program if you return an undefined value to make a Void. |
| 02:56:54 | <zwro> | right... |
| 02:57:04 | <Axman6> | printVoid = do { aVoid <- somethingWith :: IO Void; case aVoid of ??? } |
| 02:57:28 | <int-e> | Or somebody might print the result. Sure, it's boring, but again, this is something that might happen in code that's polymorphic in the result. Or it might be a progress indicator... |
| 02:58:03 | <int-e> | zwro: Oh and it's also not cheaper to return an undefined value. |
| 02:58:19 | <zwro> | i'm convinced |
| 02:58:21 | <int-e> | The sole () value is statically allocated anyway. |
| 02:59:20 | <int-e> | `undefined` will be a static closure; `error ...` is unclear, that might even be a fresh thunk each time. |
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| 03:06:13 | <int-e> | (Ironically there actually is a trick like that deep in the bowels of IO: the `State# RealWorld` token that is passed around internally to ensure the order of operations disappears almost completely at runtime. But that trick can't be used for the polymorphic return value of an IO action.) |
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| 04:12:18 | <monochrom> | (Belated) People are mislead by C's "void". The correct way according to information theory is: "I have 0 bits of information to give you" = "the type has exactly 1 possible value". Where as "the type has no possible value" = "I have infinitely many bits to tell you". |
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| 04:12:40 | <monochrom> | Not just information theory, but also the Curry-Howard correspondence. |
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| 04:40:30 | <EvanR> | (assuming the usual definition of Void), IO a covers IO Void and we love using the most general type |
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| 06:48:07 | <CalimeroTeknik> | hello int-e, I've been called here 'for help' by sprout about the naming that I have opinions about; I don't know how much he has reported of what I contend on that topic, but since I doubt anything would change, the most I can do is discuss why mathematicians "don't like intention-revealing names" as Jim Weirich put it in https://youtu.be/FITJMJjASUs#t=47m23s |
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| 06:53:30 | <CalimeroTeknik> | and I think they have two reasons for this. The first is that if the names made too much sense, it would distract them from finding common patterns in different things, it would distract them from the abstract pattern. The second is of aesthetics and value systems: when one values abstraction (above all else), applied forms of math are inferior (at least in this sense of 'elegance') and the disgusting analog and contextual world is merely t |
| 06:53:30 | <CalimeroTeknik> | he sadly necessary support for pure abstraction. |
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| 06:55:24 | <CalimeroTeknik> | I contend that we should love and respect the neuron computer in our skulls, and to have even further mind space available, short-circuit indirections where sensical. This has probably been relayed: https://ctk.ht.cx/paste/indirection-considered-harmful.jpg |
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| 06:57:33 | <CalimeroTeknik> | then again, I understand that an equation with intention-revealing names is at cross-purposes with the desire to keep the real world out of all and any algebraic formula, with the excuse (no longer acceptable in computers, cue Haskell) that because the formula will be copied over and over with transformations, single-letter names are shorter and therefore better/faster |
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| 06:59:06 | <CalimeroTeknik> | do you think we can make any progress / fix certain things, or that I have misidentified or misrepresented reasons for intentionally using non-meaningful naming? |
| 07:01:12 | <CalimeroTeknik> | if the only problem is meaningful naming, I can help. But I think such help is unwanted. |
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| 08:33:12 | <drdo> | Is there a constant space JSON parsing library available? (something like a SAX style parser) |
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| 08:52:28 | <dminuoso> | Not quite sure how SAX fits into this, but any type of succinct parser will do. |
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| 08:52:59 | <dminuoso> | hw-json is an example implementation, but other succinct json parsers exist too |
| 08:53:39 | <dminuoso> | (Im not too sure what "constant" exactly means to you, constant over what parameter?) |
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| 09:25:11 | <danse-nr3> | do you know whether is there a ghc option to print a count of errors at the end of a type check? |
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| 10:08:05 | <absence> | Is there a quick way to find out which GHC releases contain this fix? https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/merge_requests/10140 |
| 10:10:04 | <Hecate> | absence: merged two weeks ago, no backport label, most certainly will be in 9.10 |
| 10:14:14 | <absence> | Oh, my brain got stuck on "11 months", so I didn't notice how recent it was. Thanks! |
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| 12:21:30 | <testusr> | Are you aware of any interesting use cases of haskell in robotics , avionics , space systems? |
| 12:22:04 | <sprout> | there used to be an embedded haskell |
| 12:25:27 | <[Leary]> | testusr: NASA uses Haskell in Copilot & Ogma. |
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| 12:37:36 | <drdo> | dminuoso: constant for the size of the input |
| 12:38:07 | <drdo> | I don't want to load gigs of json into memory |
| 12:39:40 | <drdo> | dminuoso: I would imagine something like this https://hackage.haskell.org/package/xml-conduit-1.9.1.3/docs/Text-XML-Stream-Parse.html#v:parseBytes but for JSON |
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| 12:47:45 | <sm> | testusr: see the recent Haskell Interlude podcast interview with the NASA engineer |
| 12:48:20 | <sm> | there was also someone else using it for european space mission control dashboards IIRC |
| 12:49:38 | <sm> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ViUXHtah0 |
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| 12:57:59 | <wagle> | how would i reinstall ghcup from 2019 (0.0.7) on a mac? ghcup upgrade gets a cert error, and ghcup nuke isn't there? |
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| 13:00:41 | <danse-nr3> | not sure. Does the doc not mention removal? |
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| 15:47:51 | <testusr> | thanks guys. |
| 15:49:57 | <testusr> | wagle, did you try removing ~/.ghcup/ completely and doing it all over again? |
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| 16:04:09 | <zwro> | the good 'ol ritual |
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| 18:23:01 | <shapr> | @quote |
| 18:23:01 | <lambdabot> | Badger says: one does not simply >>= into mordor |
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| 18:57:06 | <EvanR> | :big thonk: |
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| 19:31:31 | <EvanR> | one does not simply traverse into mordor |
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| 19:34:04 | <int-e> | imagine using verbs as function names, what a terrible idea |
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| 19:41:54 | <EvanR> | object salad = kingdom of nouns. imperative programming = kingdom of verbs. functional programming = ??? |
| 19:42:29 | <EvanR> | in lens, adverbs |
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| 19:47:33 | <CalimeroTeknik> | int-e, yeah right! it's been pointed out to me that the author of the Eiffel language had exacly the same naming paradigm as me |
| 19:48:23 | <CalimeroTeknik> | EvanR, function names shall be nouns, for example: "the square of 7": square 7 → 49 |
| 19:49:16 | <CalimeroTeknik> | one interesting case for functions that produce a variant: use an adjective, e.g. 'sorted' |
| 19:50:33 | <CalimeroTeknik> | the sum of a collection? a function called `sum`, or if you will `sum_of`, so you don't confuse that with the verb |
| 19:50:52 | <CalimeroTeknik> | a function is a value that is a function of its argument |
| 19:51:54 | <c_wraith> | amusingly, "sum" and "square" are also both verbs in those contexts. |
| 19:52:40 | <CalimeroTeknik> | yes. so for the needs of the demonstration, I'll use sum_of and square_of |
| 19:52:59 | <CalimeroTeknik> | in my pseudocode syntax, function application uses the keyword `of` |
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| 19:57:43 | <monochrom> | I thought functions were verbs. |
| 19:58:14 | <int-e> | but verbs get you into mordor |
| 20:02:51 | <johnw> | so when you `return` from Mordor, you're still in Mordor |
| 20:03:21 | <monochrom> | :( |
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| 21:20:39 | <CalimeroTeknik> | monochrom, in C syntax: void add(int a, int b) { a+b; return; }, and int addition(int a, int b) { return a+b; } |
| 21:20:50 | <CalimeroTeknik> | where 'add' is intended to be the verb |
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| 21:21:39 | <CalimeroTeknik> | I don't know how to do this nonsense in a sane language like Haskell, and perhaps it's best not to |
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| 21:22:27 | <CalimeroTeknik> | but it makes the point that adding doesn't say anything about what the return value is, it just promises you the numbers will be added at some point |
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| 21:34:21 | <EvanR> | The Lord of the Monoids: The return of no return |
| 21:34:33 | <EvanR> | hmm. Monads |
| 21:34:46 | <EvanR> | anyway, doubly nouny now |
| 21:35:30 | <EvanR> | CalimeroTeknik, I recommend spelling that + in haskell |
| 21:35:45 | <EvanR> | much to the chagrine of operator overloading refugees |
| 21:36:17 | <EvanR> | about naming it in C, probably "plus" instead of add or addition |
| 21:37:26 | <EvanR> | now you know as much as if it were spelled +, instead of too much |
| 21:37:51 | <EvanR> | e.g. in javascript you see + and it's not necessarily adding anything |
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| 21:38:56 | <EvanR> | I could not tell you if plus is a noun a verb or anything else |
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| 21:49:37 | <komikat> | hi, I was interested in https://summer.haskell.org/ideas.html#inlay-hints and wanted to get in touch with the mentor, any help would be appreciated |
| 21:51:04 | <d34df00d> | An ordering function for my type needs to live in a monad. Are there any `Set`-like data structures out there that support such orderings (and hence also all their ops live in that monad)? |
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| 22:05:32 | <c_wraith> | d34df00d: I'm really unsure what you mean by that. do you have some types in mind? |
| 22:08:09 | <d34df00d> | c_wraith: sure. Suppose I have `myOrd :: MyType -> MyType -> MyMonad Ordering`, and I'd like to store these in a set. So what I'm looking for is some `SetM :: (Type -> Type) -> Type -> Type`, with ops like `insertM :: OrdM m a => a -> SetM m a -> m (SetM m a)` |
| 22:08:36 | <d34df00d> | Where `OrdM` instance is what really uses my `myOrd`. |
| 22:09:30 | <d34df00d> | And, for instance,with m ~ Identity this all is equivalent to your usual Ord, Set and so on. |
| 22:09:40 | <c_wraith> | Ah, I see. |
| 22:09:59 | <c_wraith> | As a generic interface, it's not very conducive to efficient implementations |
| 22:10:34 | <c_wraith> | It would only work with a narrow selection of monads |
| 22:10:47 | <c_wraith> | so I don't think it's likely that it's been done. |
| 22:10:56 | <d34df00d> | Welp, time to make one! |
| 22:10:58 | <d34df00d> | Thanks! |
| 22:11:17 | <d34df00d> | Just curious — what do you mean by a narrow selection? Like, what might be problematic in this case? |
| 22:11:26 | <c_wraith> | well, m can't really be IO |
| 22:11:48 | <c_wraith> | (I mean, it could be, but IO can't guarantee stability) |
| 22:11:51 | <d34df00d> | Yeah, let's scratch that and anything that would break your usual ordering invariants (like a stateful ordering). |
| 22:12:12 | <c_wraith> | Right. That doesn't leave all that many monads. |
| 22:12:54 | <c_wraith> | like.. Reader. (Ok, there are some others. But that's the most obviously useful one) |
| 22:13:36 | <CalimeroTeknik> | EvanR, 'plus' is a conjunction in English grammar, which might be a nice idea for operators |
| 22:13:39 | <d34df00d> | Well, in my use case I care about something like Reader + a-part-of-State-that-doesn't-influence-ordering + Except or something like that. |
| 22:14:26 | <CalimeroTeknik> | EvanR, basically all operator names (and, or, over, …) are conjunctions in English |
| 22:14:59 | <c_wraith> | d34df00d: Maybe make your interface in terms of MonadReader or something? Then it would be more clear why it's not doing to break things. |
| 22:15:14 | <c_wraith> | *going to |
| 22:15:31 | <d34df00d> | Hmm, that's an expressive way to do that! |
| 22:15:38 | <d34df00d> | I might go that route indeed, thanks! |
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| 22:25:57 | <CalimeroTeknik> | does MonadReader have something to do with "the reader monad"? |
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| 22:27:59 | <geekosaur> | you could think of it as "the monadic interface for reader functionality" |
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| 22:28:13 | <ncf> | the reader monad is the prototypical example of a MonadReader |
| 22:28:23 | <geekosaur> | Reader/ReaderT implements it, as does RWS/RWST, and potentially custom monads |
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| 23:18:02 | <EvanR> | functions are conjuctions |
| 23:18:48 | <geekosaur> | "conjunction junction, what's your function?" |
| 23:18:53 | <EvanR> | lol |
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