Logs on 2024-02-24 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 07:26:30 | <fraznel> | Hey all, I'm just finishing up reading chris okasaki's paper on purely functional data structures which uses ML. after reading about it I went to look up a Haskell version of real time queues and found this https://www.well-typed.com/blog/2016/01/efficient-queues/ |
| 07:27:12 | <fraznel> | in the paper the real time queue keeps a "schedule" of thunks that happens to start at the same thunk as the start of the queue and forces that schedule when it needs to but this implementation uses a lazy st monad with io refs |
| 07:27:45 | <fraznel> | is there a good reason in general to prefer monadic versions in haskell or.. why go for a monadic version here. Does haskell amortize thunks differently |
| 07:28:18 | <fraznel> | for example, if i put the same list thunk in a data in two places then force one of them, is the other now memoized up to where the second was |
| 07:28:51 | <fraznel> | i'm trying to reason about why they would go with a monadic implementation when it's not needed. The way the schedule works I suppose is monadic, but it seems like an extra restriction that is kinda clunky to work with |
| 07:29:41 | <fraznel> | s/io refs/stref + unsafeInterleaveST |
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| 07:46:22 | <c_wraith> | fraznel: I remember that article. a key phrase from it is "This is where we diverge from Okasaki" |
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| 07:52:42 | <fraznel> | aye, i'm trying to play around with ghci to better understand how haskell amortizes thunks but I'm not having much luck with :print, :force or seq. There's something i don't follow in the docs about forcing a viewing thunks there but i'm trying to figure out what this means https://play.haskell.org/saved/VZDMWWOR |
| 07:53:28 | <fraznel> | I would expect a to be [1,2]:3:[] but I cant find any docs that say that is the case and I'm still fumbling figuring out a way to check in ghci |
| 07:53:55 | <fraznel> | er, a to be a [1,2]:3:[] after the end of the program |
| 07:54:34 | <mauke> | [1,2]:3 looks a lot like a type error |
| 07:54:37 | <fraznel> | oh, seq will force everything i think if i'm understanding it right so i would expect a at the end to be fully evaluated [1,2,3] |
| 07:54:50 | <c_wraith> | yeah, that's a type error. |
| 07:55:01 | <mauke> | 1:2:3:[] is fully evaluated |
| 07:55:13 | <mauke> | seq only forces the top-level structure, not deeply |
| 07:55:31 | <c_wraith> | running main also won't cause seq to be evaluated there |
| 07:55:45 | <mauke> | your code never reaches seq |
| 07:55:49 | <mauke> | yeah :-) |
| 07:56:09 | <mauke> | in fact, b is unused and so is a |
| 07:56:37 | <fraznel> | haha |
| 07:56:46 | <mauke> | I'd expect ghc to compile this to no code at all :-) |
| 07:56:58 | <fraznel> | aye, its a artificial example and your right, that is a compile error i need ::[Integer] |
| 07:57:17 | <mauke> | > [1,2]:3:[] :: [Integer] |
| 07:57:18 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 07:57:18 | <lambdabot> | • Couldn't match type ‘[a0]’ with ‘Integer’ |
| 07:57:18 | <lambdabot> | Expected type: [Integer] |
| 07:57:35 | <fraznel> | but assuming a is used later on and b is only ever used to seq... and a is typed well to [Integer] |
| 07:57:42 | <fraznel> | hmm. i guess i don't know how to ask the question right |
| 07:58:13 | <fraznel> | will forcing another bound thunk to evaluate force other names bound to that thunk to evaluate as well in haskell? |
| 07:58:13 | <mauke> | you seem to think a:b:[] can be "evaluated" to [a,b] |
| 07:58:18 | <mauke> | that is not the case |
| 07:58:37 | <mauke> | [a,b] is pretty syntax for the structure that is a:b:[] |
| 07:58:41 | <fraznel> | right |
| 07:58:56 | <fraznel> | how about with + then |
| 07:59:06 | <fraznel> | uh.. i'll rewrite it and check for compilation errors |
| 07:59:28 | <mauke> | let a = sqrt 2; b = a in print b |
| 07:59:43 | <mauke> | "does this evaluate a?" <- is that what you're asking? |
| 08:00:45 | <fraznel> | yes |
| 08:01:02 | <fraznel> | does that make a amortized and now a seq of a won't force any new thunks |
| 08:01:41 | <fraznel> | let a = sqrt 2; b = a in print b; seq a () |
| 08:01:45 | <c_wraith> | I think you've skipped a few steps, and that's really biting you. |
| 08:01:47 | <fraznel> | does that seq then no longer do any "work" |
| 08:02:11 | <mauke> | don't know about amortized but the answer is yes: a and b are just names for the same thunk, and forcing a thunk makes it replace itself by the result |
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| 08:02:56 | <c_wraith> | amortization is an issue to address once you understand what laziness is doing. |
| 08:04:33 | <fraznel> | bah, my brains mush with being specific tonight. but I think you guys helped things click with haskell and thunk evaluation. I don't know why that word came out of my fingers. :P Scheduling is a way to change amortized complexity into worst case complexity provided you can prove it by something like the bankers method in a proof |
| 08:05:35 | <c_wraith> | yeah, but if you want to know why unsafeInterleaveST is involved, it gets really deep into the weeds. |
| 08:05:52 | <fraznel> | i'm going to keep fiddling with ghci to see if i can get good feedback about thunk evaluation the sqrt example is super helpful. Is there a better way to get a graph of thunks or evaluated vs unevaluated and what thunk references which other than :print, :force / sec |
| 08:06:00 | <c_wraith> | in particular, it has to do with preventing duplicated work when sharing is involved |
| 08:06:24 | <c_wraith> | if you track down the reddit thread for that blog post, it goes into more details |
| 08:06:44 | <fraznel> | why would that prevent duplicated work more so than having more of a schedule list you are forcing with seq? |
| 08:06:48 | <c_wraith> | I remember this because I asked why it was so complicated. :) |
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| 08:07:08 | <fraznel> | oh... does it prevent persistant old copies from duplicating? wait, no the persistant old copies should reference the same thunks still... :| |
| 08:07:24 | <c_wraith> | yes. they reference a chain of pointers. |
| 08:07:43 | <c_wraith> | it lets the implementation skip the chain of pointers with persistent access |
| 08:08:22 | <fraznel> | oh, so it doesn't have to iterate through some representation of thunks to progress the schedule then? |
| 08:08:28 | <mauke> | there was a graphical tool somewhere to visualize data structures and thunks |
| 08:08:31 | <c_wraith> | yes |
| 08:08:40 | <mauke> | anyone remember what I'm talking about? |
| 08:09:27 | <c_wraith> | vacuum? or... it got a successor, didn't it? |
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| 08:13:04 | <fraznel> | c_wraith, glad you saw that then, it seemed super complicated of an implementation to me too. I'll try to find the reddit thread. I don't get it and want to for sure. |
| 08:13:50 | <fraznel> | vacuum looks great! |
| 08:15:11 | <c_wraith> | hmm. there was ghc-heap-view, but it also looks unmaintained at this point |
| 08:20:35 | <fraznel> | c_wraith, mauke thanks for the tips! I'm gonna chase some of the tools down and play around with them |
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| 08:27:38 | <haskellbridge> | <irregularsphere> fraznel: "[1,2]:3:[]" are you looking for "[1,2] ++ [3]"? |
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| 08:30:38 | <fraznel> | rereading what i said i was mixing up terms left and right. I should have used ++ not : and I kept using amortize instead of memoize :X, watching a video of someone who has ghc-viz compiling and is poking around with it in ghci |
| 08:33:53 | <fraznel> | just for general library availability, this video is really good at showing the memory model of sharing / laziness in ghc so far https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4lnCG18TaY |
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| 09:00:00 | <kaol> | I'm reading about MLIR (an LLVM thing for interfacing with it). I've ran into the phrase "generated automatically" several times now and if this was in Haskell it would just be a Functor or something else and you'd know it'd have certain properties right away without ever encountering those words. |
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| 16:42:58 | <hololeap> | kaol: what about a Functor is generated automatically? a functor allows you to modify some inner value |
| 16:44:39 | <hololeap> | maybe you're thinking of a monoid? |
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| 16:57:16 | <kaol> | I know very well what a functor is, thank you. |
| 16:58:18 | <kaol> | I'm just missing the clarity of having documentation say that this is abstraction X right away. |
| 16:59:06 | <kaol> | This is C++ so I have to wade through a swamp to finally glean that any single thing is after all something very simple when you find the right way to look at it. |
| 16:59:24 | <kaol> | I've been spoiled. |
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| 19:03:25 | <kvgrai> | hey |
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| 22:25:35 | × | zetef quits (~quassel@2a02:2f00:5208:300:2eac:56a:f29c:cb5b) (Remote host closed the connection) |
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| 23:18:50 | × | zetef quits (~quassel@2a02:2f00:5208:300:2eac:56a:f29c:cb5b) (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:26:04 | × | kvgrai quits (~kvgrai@p200300f91711f4000c1e8d1adb8ecaa4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 23:29:22 | × | coot quits (~coot@89-69-206-216.dynamic.chello.pl) (Quit: coot) |
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| 23:38:29 | haftl | is now known as gateway |
| 23:38:37 | gateway | is now known as kvgrai` |
| 23:39:21 | kvgrai` | is now known as haftl |
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All times are in UTC on 2024-02-24.