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Logs on 2024-02-27 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:54:13 <Heffalump> jackdk: it's more about how it needs to be used by the application in question, than a real bug in the indirect dependency. https://bugs.darcs.net/issue2715
01:02:13 <jackdk> Heffalump: Oof, that's annoying. And the guts of the library seem sealed-off in a way that makes it hard to actually override EMS settings
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03:49:48 <EvanR> that aspect of super "private" haskell code which more often than not leads to "wish they had made an internal module that I may import for my own inscrutable purposes" might inform future programming languages
03:50:47 <EvanR> otoh that sounds suspiciously like OOP state of the art "subclass and reimplement their methods" paradigm
03:57:28 <probie> EvanR: Bold of you to assume that the library authors didn't make their class `final` (or whatever the equivalent is for you favourite non-Java OOP language)
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03:59:49 <EvanR> is that common
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04:00:36 <EvanR> sounds like the same problem as hidden modules
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04:04:04 <probie> It also prevents some problems though. For example, imagine you've got two methods `foo` and `bar`, where `foo` takes a lock and `bar` releases it. Someone could subclass it, override `bar`, but not `foo` leading to a potential deadlock.
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04:08:36 <EvanR> highlights the relative nirvana of knowing the function you're overriding is a "pure function"
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05:56:23 <tri> hello, im trying to send and receive message from amazon sqs. Im really lost in the Amazonka doc, could anyone help me please
05:57:59 <tri> i can only get this far, and don't know what to do next to send message
05:57:59 <tri> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/4gBO9wlI
05:59:22 <tri> im so frustrated with this language, every time i need to do something, i have to read a whole article on a new concept, and just keep on reading new stuff
05:59:38 <tri> so frustrated...
06:04:00 <probie> tri: Probably take a look at the example at the top of https://amazonka.brendanhay.nz/docs/libZSamazonkaZSamazonka/Amazonka.html for how to actually send an AWS request
06:08:25 <probie> but naively something like, `do { logger <- AWS.newLogger AWS.Debug IO.stdout; enb <- AWS.newEnv AWS.Discover; AWS.runResourceT (AWS.send env sendMessage) }` will probably work (where `IO` is System.IO and `AWS` is Amazonka)
06:08:44 <probie> s/enb/env/
06:11:09 <tri> thank you probie. I will take a look
06:12:22 <tri> it's frustrated that i only have 1-2 hours at night (im already tired from a long day) to do something with Haskell, but trying to do a very simple thing is so hard
06:12:44 <probie> (ignore my little snippet where I forget to actually use the logger)
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06:24:03 <probie> tri: Amazonka is not the most new-user friendly of Haskell libraries, and it doesn't help that due to it being mostly auto-generated, the docs for most services don't include Haskell examples
06:24:51 <tri> it's ok
06:25:01 <tri> this is the mountain that i decided to climb...
06:25:22 <tri> you guys are awesome
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08:27:01 <jackdk> tri: https://github.com/brendanhay/amazonka/blob/main/examples/src/SQS.hs
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08:28:38 <jackdk> tri: this might help you get started. `env <- newEnv discover` will get you an environment which pulls AWS credentials from something like the usual places (`~/.aws`, EC2 instance profile, etc). you then use `env` as an argument to `Amazonka.send`
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08:29:57 <jackdk> anyway that example seems to copy one SQS queue onto another. there's also a high-level example at https://hackage.haskell.org/package/amazonka-2.0/docs/Amazonka.html
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09:37:56 <danse-nr3> moin, do you ever have stack installing the wrong version? I run `stack install fourmolu-0.9` but it installs 0.11. This seems the right syntax. Is that a matter of resolver? Strange it would not fail though, rather than installing a different version
09:40:47 <danse-nr3> --verbosity debug does not write anything about the version override
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09:47:24 <danse-nr3> i guess i should pin the resolver, but to get 0.9 i will use the binary from github
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10:04:26 tomsmeding uses `cabal install fourmolu-0.9`
10:07:35 <danse-nr3> v
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10:41:17 <[exa]> danse-nr3: interesting, I guess it somehow just decided that your version is wrong
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10:46:07 <[exa]> dmj`: re the typeclasses, AFAIK the "old" typesystem is THIH-style where typeclasses are treated specially (and it's relatively simple to implement, and that's why it's specified as a relatively easily satisfiable requirement in h'98). Opens a lot of corner cases because the specialness in all places though, which was one of the reasons to go for a solver-based inference with system-F features.
10:46:09 <[exa]> (Compare THIH vs. SPJ's talk on "french approach to type inference", I think there's a zurihac video on youtube from that.)
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11:15:14 <tomsmeding> [exa]: was that "french approach" doing constraint generation -> constraint solving?
11:15:30 <[exa]> yap, constraint-solver view of the problem
11:15:34 <tomsmeding> right
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11:16:14 <ph88^> how can i solve this type error? https://bpa.st/EZQFQ i already tried ScopedTypeVariables and ExplicitForAll
11:16:51 <tomsmeding> ph88^: try giving k a type signature
11:17:38 <tomsmeding> or put a 'forall v es.' on get_block and use 'get_state @v' instead of just 'get_state'
11:17:43 <tomsmeding> (with ScopedTypeVariables)
11:18:12 <tomsmeding> there is nothing in the code as-is that requires the 'v' in get_state to be the same as the 'v' in get_block
11:18:22 <tomsmeding> so you'll have to put that information in the code somehow
11:19:04 <tomsmeding> (there may be multiple (State (StateMachine v1)), (State (StateMachine v2)) in 'es')
11:19:24 <ph88^> tomsmeding, https://bpa.st/MWAEG with type signature for k
11:19:40 <tomsmeding> right, because this still doesn't link the two v's
11:19:46 <tomsmeding> put 'forall v es.' on get_block now
11:19:50 <tomsmeding> with scopedtypevariables
11:19:57 <tomsmeding> then the inner v is the same as the outer v
11:20:53 <ph88^> tomsmeding, it's fixed now ... how did you know that it could be solved like this ?
11:21:00 <ph88^> i've been staring at it for hours
11:21:08 <tomsmeding> I've dealt with ScopedTypeVariables before :p
11:21:36 <ph88^> why do i need "forall v es." for example, why is it implicitly not good enough ?
11:21:45 <tomsmeding> perhaps your confusion was that you thought "get_state has this constraint mentioning v, there is a constraint with a v in scope, so it'll pick that one"
11:21:48 <tomsmeding> but that's not how it works
11:22:10 <tomsmeding> get_state will produce a constraint with some yet-unknown v1, and then ghc will look if there's an instance in scope for that
11:22:23 <tomsmeding> there is one for v, but ghc doesn't know yet that v1 should be the same as v
11:22:33 <tomsmeding> so it isn't yet able to use the constraint on get_block
11:22:46 <tomsmeding> you have to tell ghc _somehow_ that you want the v in get_state to be the v in the signature of get_block
11:23:33 <tomsmeding> which you can do either with a type application on get_state (the @v) using ScopedTypeVariables to be able to mention the v in get_block's body, or by putting a type signature on k that inherits the v again using ScopedTypeVariables
11:23:46 <ph88^> i tried both solutions, both work
11:23:56 <tomsmeding> type variables are _not_ scoped by default
11:24:22 <tomsmeding> if you have k with a signature in the where-block and no forall on get_state, then the v in k's signature and the v in get_block's signature are completely unrelated
11:24:30 <tomsmeding> they just happen to have the same name
11:24:41 <tomsmeding> the 'forall', in combination with ScopedTypeVariables, changes this behaviour
11:25:12 <ph88^> does ScopedTypeVariables have any use without forall ?
11:25:23 <tomsmeding> not in this sense
11:25:29 <ph88^> in another sense ?
11:25:38 <tomsmeding> it does also enable the syntax where you can put a type annotation in a pattern
11:25:46 <tomsmeding> like 'f (x :: Maybe a) = _'
11:25:56 <tomsmeding> here you get the type variable 'a' in scope in the '_'
11:26:18 <tomsmeding> some have argued that this should be a different extension because it's also sometimes useful in general to put a type annotation in a pattern
11:30:12 <ph88^> tomsmeding, solid advice thanks !
11:30:58 <tomsmeding> by the way, the story for 'es' is different than for 'v' because 'es', being mentioned in the monad type, travels from the type signature of get_block via >>= to both get_state and k
11:31:41 <tomsmeding> hence your error here https://bpa.st/MWAEG where it tries to match (v1, es) with (v, es) -- note that es == es but v1 /= v
11:32:37 <tomsmeding> The "The type variable 'v1' is ambiguous" reflects the thing I described above (search for "yet-unknown")
11:34:51 <ph88^> tomsmeding, how can i do the same thing for f ? https://bpa.st/6EKOI
11:35:08 <tomsmeding> funny how it was v1 before and v0 now
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11:35:29 <tomsmeding> giving 'f' a type signature will be sufficient here, because you already have the forall
11:35:41 <ph88^> f @v doesn't work
11:35:59 <ph88^> something like f @(v -> v) perhaps
11:36:06 <tomsmeding> currently f's type signature is essentially 'f :: State (StateMachine v0) => StateMachine v0 -> StateMachine v0' (if I guessed the types correctly)
11:36:28 <tomsmeding> if you're putting type applications on something, always write at least a type signature for it
11:36:34 <tomsmeding> and preferably also an explicit forall
11:37:07 <tomsmeding> because the order of the @-arguments is the same as the order of the free type variables in f's signature, and without a signature it's really hard to guess exactly what that order is
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11:37:53 <ph88^> signature of upd_state ?
11:37:59 <tomsmeding> f's signature
11:38:12 <tomsmeding> if you write 'f @v' then you're putting a type application on f
11:38:19 <tomsmeding> so it's f's signature that is important
11:38:30 <ph88^> oh i better put a type signature on f directly then
11:39:00 <tomsmeding> there is probably some way of writing the call to f with some @'s that will work
11:39:10 <tomsmeding> but that's annoying and unreadable
11:39:18 <tomsmeding> (because which @ is which type variable?)
11:39:51 <tomsmeding> ph88^: what's the type of upd_state?
11:40:13 <tomsmeding> wild guess: `upd_state @(StateMachine v) f`
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11:40:40 <tomsmeding> that would allow you to leave out f's type signature, I think
11:40:56 <tomsmeding> may need to be `upd_state @_ @(StateMachine v)` or something depending on upd_state's exact type signature
11:41:23 <ph88^> upd_state :: State v :> es => (v -> v) -> Eff es () ... but it was wrong i needed to change it to upd_state :: State v :> es => (StateMachine v -> StateMachine v) -> Eff es ()
11:41:48 <tomsmeding> I think it wasn't wrong
11:42:00 <tomsmeding> this change just makes upd_state less general
11:42:02 <ph88^> ooh
11:42:22 <tomsmeding> I mean, if you only ever use it for StateMachine states then it may be helpful for type inference to use the more restrictive variant
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11:42:54 <tomsmeding> but I'm not sure if that really works out in practice
11:43:27 <ph88^> i need to change f :: StateMachine v -> StateMachine v to f :: v -> v then or something
11:43:49 <tomsmeding> 'StateMachine v' is a perfectly fine instantiation of the 'v' in upd_state's signature ;)
11:44:00 <ph88^> aah yes
11:44:06 <tomsmeding> writing just 'f :: StateMachine v -> StateMachine v' is likely to fix this error
11:44:16 <tomsmeding> as is writing 'upd_state @(StateMachine v) f' instead of 'upd_state f'
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11:45:31 <ph88_> tomsmeding, i got disconnected
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11:46:03 <tomsmeding> https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/browse/lchaskell?id=1222246#trid1222246
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11:50:03 <ph88_> all error free now :D :D
11:50:14 <tomsmeding> yay :)
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11:57:18 <ph88_> tomsmeding, did you graduate yet ?
11:57:39 <tomsmeding> 2 more years to go!
11:57:48 <tomsmeding> I have a 5-year phd program
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11:58:30 <ph88_> i once lived in your city
11:58:48 <tomsmeding> :D
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11:59:01 <tomsmeding> utrecht?
11:59:06 <ph88_> there were some guys from your university running some meetups on FP
11:59:25 <ph88_> yes
11:59:32 <ph88_> very interesting times
11:59:33 <tomsmeding> that disappeared when the pandemic happened but it's kind of running again
12:00:06 <ph88_> ye meetup scene is not the same as before like 80% of the way there
12:00:30 <ph88_> do you attent to dutch fp day ?
12:00:45 <tomsmeding> (this is probably more suited to #haskell-offtopic)
12:00:49 <ph88_> ok
12:00:52 <tomsmeding> yes I was there the last 2 (3?) years :)
12:00:57 <tomsmeding> 2 I guess, 3 is pandemic times
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14:31:39 <ph88^> is there any way i can write this code without UndecidableInstances ? https://bpa.st/WIKPK
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14:35:25 <ph88^> tomsmeding ? :)
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14:39:24 <ph88^> oh i think i solved it
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14:44:58 <tomsmeding> (looks like a case where you should just turn on UndecidableInstances, but I dunno)
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15:25:43 <ph88^> i moved the constraints onto the functions instead of the type class
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17:21:41 <Guest62> Hey guys, I just installed haskell and wanted to try out Debug.Trace library in my repl. While trying to install the library using
17:21:41 <Guest62> "cabal install --lib trace"
17:21:42 <Guest62> I run into some dependency errors. Such as
17:21:42 <Guest62> "[1 of 4] Compiling Control.Monad.Trace.Class ( src/Control/Monad/Trace/Class.hs, dist/build/Control/Monad/Trace/Class.o, dist/build/Control/Monad/Trace/Class.dyn_o )
17:21:43 <Guest62> src/Control/Monad/Trace/Class.hs:80:41: warning: [-Wdeprecations]
17:21:43 <Guest62>     In the use of type constructor or class ‘ListT’
17:21:44 <Guest62>     (imported from Control.Monad.List, but defined in Control.Monad.Trans.List):
17:21:44 <Guest62>     Deprecated: "This transformer is invalid on most monads"
17:21:45 <Guest62>    |
17:21:45 <Guest62> 80 | instance MonadTrace t m ⇒ MonadTrace t (ListT m) where"
17:21:46 <Guest62> any idea how to solve them?
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17:24:33 <sadie-sorceress> Debug.Trace is apart of base. you should be able to just do `import Debug.Trace` without installing anything
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17:25:03 <sadie-sorceress> `trace` is some unrelated library
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17:26:40 <Guest62> Oh, you're right lol sadie-sorceress
17:26:41 <Guest62> Thanks
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23:04:34 <Guest15> Hello everyone,
23:04:34 <Guest15> I hope this message finds you well. My name is Jesse Amos, and I'm thrilled to share that I've successfully completed the Haskell course! I'm now embarking on a personal project and am eager to find a mentor and friend who wouldn't mind me reaching out with questions as I navigate through challenges. Your guidance and insights would mean a lot to
23:04:35 <Guest15> me. Looking forward to connecting with someone willing to share their expertise. Thanks a bunch!
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23:09:41 <haskellbridge> <s​m> welcome Guest15
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