Logs on 2024-03-08 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 13:29:53 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> say what do i need to do if a want to become the maintainer of a abandoned package? |
| 13:31:38 | <byorgey> | here are the guidelines for that process: https://wiki.haskell.org/Taking_over_a_package |
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| 13:46:44 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> thanks |
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| 13:59:29 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> hm |
| 14:02:08 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> i could easily make a test for my package with nix or i could import the ghc package in the test suite and suffer through compiler internals and make my test flaky |
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| 16:16:49 | <haskellbridge> | <vaibhavsagar> how does nix save you from needing to import the ghc package? |
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| 16:39:30 | <ph88> | Can anyone help me with this issue ? https://github.com/haskell-effectful/effectful/discussions/205 |
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| 17:33:32 | <haskellbridge> | <eldritchcookie> simple i then can use ghc from the commandline this is obviously kinda of a hack but whatever |
| 17:37:58 | <raehik> | in GHC.Exts, why does copyAddrToAddr return a `State# RealWorld`, while all other Addr#<->ByteArray# copy primops return a `State# d`? |
| 17:39:13 | <raehik> | I suppose I'm most confused by `copyMutableByteArrayToAddr# :: ... -> State# d` |
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| 17:47:25 | <ulf-frostypaw> | 2 |
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| 18:04:11 | <tomsmeding> | raehik: no answer, but they were introduced in this commit, it seems https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/commit/9095e297fbb46781fd182210609ce2a3f6c59b7a |
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| 18:07:40 | <raehik> | tomsmeding: yeah I just realized they were new. Only just wrapping my head around ST and IO and that RealWorld forced me to de-generalize a bit of code |
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| 18:08:14 | <raehik> | but fairly happy that it has to be that way. and now I have some 9.6 wrappers in prep for those primops (when 9.8 works for me) |
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| 18:20:47 | <raehik> | Wait, I figured it out in a way. the primop is replacing some other wonky code which needs to touch# after copying due to working on non-GCed data |
| 18:21:35 | <raehik> | don't need to touch# going the other ways. except copyAddrToByteArray# but idk |
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| 18:24:18 | <raehik> | (pfft well touch# has had its type changed between GHC 9.6 and 9.8 too. ignore me) |
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| 18:53:31 | <ph88> | good job raehik ! |
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| 20:06:12 | <mechap> | can we describe any recursion schemes with catamorphisms ? |
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| 20:27:16 | <monochrom> | No. |
| 20:28:48 | <dolio> | You can describe catamorphisms with catamorphisms. |
| 20:29:10 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 20:38:56 | <dolio> | The lesson is, don't use the word "any." |
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| 20:41:43 | <int-e> | :t \f -> foldr ((||) . f) False |
| 20:41:44 | <lambdabot> | Foldable t => (a -> Bool) -> t a -> Bool |
| 20:42:21 | <int-e> | any (implemented with) catamorphism |
| 20:42:58 | <monochrom> | :) |
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| 21:15:13 | <monochrom> | class Semigroup (Aug v) => Augable v where { type Aug v; aug :: v -> Aug v } -- the class constraint can be a forward reference (even inward reference) heh |
| 21:16:22 | <monochrom> | (I am implementing "augmented binary search trees" in general. I noticed that all augmentation schemes are backed by semigroups...) |
| 21:16:33 | <tomsmeding> | yeah I've written code like that before, it feels a bit weird :p |
| 21:16:47 | <tomsmeding> | can be really nice for type inference |
| 21:16:54 | <monochrom> | (So basically data BST k v = Node k v (Aug v) ...) |
| 21:18:43 | <tomsmeding> | there's also this other trick where you take 'class C a', ('instance (...) => C T')* and turn it into 'type family D a; class D a => C a', ('type instance D T = (...); instance (...) => C T')* |
| 21:19:10 | <tomsmeding> | the point being that now not only do you get 'C T' from (...), you also get (...) from 'C T' |
| 21:19:35 | <tomsmeding> | I've needed this _once_ |
| 21:19:59 | tomsmeding | now wonders if D can be an associated type family to C |
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| 21:48:38 | <byorgey> | monochrom: indeed, reminds me of the 'Measured' class from the finger tree paper |
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| 21:52:11 | <EvanR> | if anyone was ironically interesting in NeoHaskell I have good news. Someone already did the work to produce NeoHaskell, i.e. "a language like haskell but missing a bunch of stuff that someone considered to be too difficult". it's name is gleam |
| 21:52:39 | <EvanR> | difference is this language is real |
| 21:53:30 | <probie> | Is that the one which runs on BEAM? |
| 21:53:45 | <EvanR> | yes |
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| 21:59:02 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: can it do the things monochrom and I were mentioning :p |
| 21:59:28 | <int-e> | does it shimmer in the dark |
| 21:59:30 | <tomsmeding> | can I even be a wannabe Agda programmer |
| 21:59:41 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: yes you can |
| 21:59:48 | <tomsmeding> | in gleam, that is |
| 21:59:58 | <int-e> | All you have to do is to want to be an Agda programmer. |
| 22:00:02 | <tomsmeding> | :D |
| 22:00:28 | <EvanR> | it doesn't have type classes |
| 22:00:37 | <tomsmeding> | O.O |
| 22:00:50 | <int-e> | Lazy ML without modules? |
| 22:00:52 | <EvanR> | it has a justification for why not in the FAQ |
| 22:00:55 | <tomsmeding> | I was expecting it to give up around type families or so |
| 22:01:12 | <int-e> | Or maybe it's not lazy either... because laziness is also complicated. |
| 22:01:14 | <Rembane> | tomsmeding: Try Purescript for the "I can't believe it's not Haskell"-feeling. |
| 22:01:24 | <ph88> | what is the general opinion of the singletons library ? |
| 22:01:28 | <Rembane> | IIRC gleam is eager |
| 22:02:02 | <tomsmeding> | I write so little code that depends on laziness that I don't even care much about eager evaluation |
| 22:02:11 | <EvanR> | are you sure? xD |
| 22:02:16 | <tomsmeding> | no xD |
| 22:02:26 | <tomsmeding> | well mostly |
| 22:02:37 | <int-e> | in Haskell, short-circuiting || and && rely on laziness |
| 22:02:39 | <EvanR> | I tried to write some code in idris and realized I need to reconfigure my brain |
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| 22:02:52 | <EvanR> | unless I want things to be dirt slow |
| 22:02:57 | <tomsmeding> | ph88: I tend to write my own singleton GADTs manually and eschew the general framework from the library |
| 22:03:07 | <int-e> | And there's the ubiquitous use of `where` that would have awkward semantics without laziness |
| 22:03:53 | <EvanR> | like, accumulating parameters are serious and seriously necessary without laziness |
| 22:04:03 | <tomsmeding> | the 'where' thing is only for non-functions, and even then writing stuff without the intent to use it in all branches always felt weird to me |
| 22:04:06 | <EvanR> | and they get old xD |
| 22:04:08 | <tomsmeding> | the && and || thing is real though |
| 22:04:12 | <ph88> | quite an invasive library as it looks like |
| 22:04:32 | tomsmeding | admits to never having used the singletons library |
| 22:04:51 | <EvanR> | maybe you embrace eagerness more often than not in your haskell code |
| 22:05:04 | <tomsmeding> | EvanR: example of annoying accumulating parameters? |
| 22:05:08 | <EvanR> | using the default lazy behavior selectively |
| 22:05:45 | <EvanR> | example, function to compute the length of a list |
| 22:06:00 | <tomsmeding> | oh right, no tail recursion you mean |
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| 22:06:14 | <EvanR> | or equivalently the value of a Nat as a machine int |
| 22:07:05 | <EvanR> | ... er no you need tail recursion to write the function, but you need an accumulating parameter to store the intermediate sum |
| 22:08:09 | <EvanR> | bad example because we do this in haskell anyway, with foldl' |
| 22:08:41 | <tomsmeding> | I mean, you could write it without the accumulating parameter too (i.e. exactly as you'd write the naive recursive function in haskell), but it wouldn't be tail recursive |
| 22:09:15 | <tomsmeding> | length [] = 0 ; length (x : xs) = 1 + length xs |
| 22:09:53 | <EvanR> | try writing like any list function |
| 22:09:59 | <EvanR> | it's gross xD |
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| 22:10:41 | <tomsmeding> | doesn't the compiler fix some of the missing tail recursion for you |
| 22:11:08 | <EvanR> | I'm not sure what they would even mean |
| 22:11:11 | <EvanR> | that |
| 22:11:31 | <tomsmeding> | automatically introduce an accumulating parameter for you, making the function tail-recursive |
| 22:11:37 | <tomsmeding> | but that's probably hard in general |
| 22:11:51 | <EvanR> | not at all, back when I was doing idris |
| 22:11:58 | <tomsmeding> | even for 'length' it depends on (+) on Int being associative |
| 22:11:58 | <EvanR> | what you write is what you get for the most part |
| 22:12:26 | <EvanR> | eager is as eager does |
| 22:12:31 | <int-e> | I don't think it does... some libraries might accomplish this for their own functions through rewrite rules. |
| 22:13:01 | <int-e> | (including the build/foldr fusion business in base) |
| 22:13:08 | <EvanR> | the point of eager is so you don't have to guess or hope what the optimizer is going to do |
| 22:13:21 | <EvanR> | and then not write your code is a non obvious way |
| 22:13:32 | <EvanR> | blaw |
| 22:13:47 | <int-e> | what the compiler may accomplish through strictness analysis is turning a foldl into a foldl' |
| 22:13:55 | <int-e> | /may/ |
| 22:18:00 | <ph88> | does it unroll loops? then you need an accumulator no? |
| 22:18:29 | <EvanR> | what loops lol |
| 22:22:33 | <int-e> | ph88: Unrolling would be inlining one or several recursive calls... it's conceivable that GHC does that sometimes, I don't know. |
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| 22:23:23 | <int-e> | And I guess when a tail recursive function is finally transformed to LLVM code (if that's the backend you use) it'll become a loop that LLVM might unroll. |
| 22:23:30 | <int-e> | Lots of speculation in that one. |
| 22:23:54 | <geekosaur> | llvm generally doesn't understand ghc's code because it's been cpsed |
| 22:24:39 | <int-e> | I mean this is assuming that we have a fragment without any allocation or evaluation of unknown thunks. It would almost always be tiny. |
| 22:25:35 | <tomsmeding> | that may not even hold for 'length', the list being lazy and potentially thunky |
| 22:25:50 | <int-e> | Right, it wouldn't hold for length |
| 22:26:01 | <tomsmeding> | in which case it holds for basically nothing in practice |
| 22:26:01 | <int-e> | It might work for something like summing an unboxed vector. |
| 22:26:10 | <geekosaur> | eh? unless the list itself is a thunk, it won't matter |
| 22:26:14 | <tomsmeding> | right, there might be some bytestring internals |
| 22:26:26 | <tomsmeding> | geekosaur: the tail of the list might be a thunk, how can ghc know |
| 22:26:42 | <tomsmeding> | and hence how can the generated code know |
| 22:30:35 | <int-e> | An example of "unrolling" by inlining one recursive call (and some simplification relying on associativity so it'll depend on the concrete type) would be: length (_:_:xs) = 2 + length xs; length (_:xs) = 1 + length xs; length _ = 0 |
| 22:31:06 | <int-e> | And I don't know whether ghc ever does this. |
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| 22:39:27 | <ph88> | int-e, can't we just stick that in godbolt and have a look ? |
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| 22:41:01 | <int-e> | feel free to try |
| 22:41:04 | <geekosaur> | or play.haskell.org |
| 22:43:03 | <[Leary]> | iirc ghc identifies loop-breakers refuses to inline them |
| 22:43:05 | <int-e> | (My expectation is that ghc does none of the above... but I don't know enough about its internals to be sure. In this case, I don't know how strictly it enforces not inlining "loop breakers".) |
| 22:43:14 | <[Leary]> | and* |
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| 22:52:05 | <ph88> | reading the assembly is not east :| |
| 22:53:26 | <monochrom> | When I want to read GHC-generated assembly, I also ask it to generate core and cmm. Then it is easier to follow. |
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| 23:12:04 | <monochrom> | The name lookup is used up by Prelude in GHC 9.4.* :( |
| 23:12:48 | <monochrom> | Hrm maybe it has been there longer. |
| 23:15:27 | <geekosaur> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/6.6.1/docs/html/libraries/base/Prelude.html#v%3Alookup |
| 23:16:06 | <int-e> | gah, "name lookup" is a technical term of its own... failed to parse |
| 23:17:29 | <int-e> | monochrom: it's in the Haskell 98 report Prelude as part of PreludeList |
| 23:17:40 | <int-e> | So "forever". |
| 23:17:57 | <monochrom> | :( |
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| 23:28:42 | <ph88> | is there some ghc version that doesn't require you to list mtl as a separate package ? |
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| 23:29:48 | <geekosaur> | 5.x maybe |
| 23:30:11 | <ph88> | wow that's old |
| 23:31:16 | <ph88> | when i have -Weverything -Wno-incomplete-uni-patterns why does it still complain about incomplete-uni-patterns ? |
| 23:33:10 | <glguy> | ph88: I'd guess you have another flag after that that turns them back on |
| 23:33:26 | <glguy> | or that the order you wrote here isn't the order you wrote them to the compiler |
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| 23:33:42 | <EvanR> | you have to lookup the name name lookup |
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| 23:37:23 | <ph88> | glguy, i have it like this https://bpa.st/GC5Q building with stack build |
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| 23:50:46 | <geekosaur> | did you forget to add it to the executable stanza? |
| 23:51:31 | <geekosaur> | cf. line 18 |
| 23:51:50 | <geekosaur> | also perhaps you have things set up wrong such that it's rebuilding the library as part of the executable |
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| 23:52:18 | <geekosaur> | (commonly this means you tried to use the same surce directory for both) |
| 23:52:25 | <geekosaur> | *source |
| 23:55:38 | <geekosaur> | sorry, I meant line 18 of the build log, which shows it configuring and building the executable after building the library |
| 23:55:50 | <renpose> | Is there a way to unzip(ish) a HKD record generically: When I have `Record mode = { v :: mode :- T, ... }` and I have modes for `T` (Value), `IO T` (Fetch), and `T -> IO ()` (Store) and a combined mode `(IO T, T -> IO T)` (Loc). Given types in combined mode can I split them? So a generic function `Record Loc -> (Record Fetch, Record Store)`? |
| 23:57:03 | <renpose> | Excuse formatting, I have a readable, cleaned up, commented and minimal example: https://pastebin.com/CThDgD2E |
| 23:57:56 | <renpose> | I can generate the combined record, but struggle with the `K1` case for the split version. Surely this is some kind of pattern that has occurred somewhere and I just don't know it? |
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