Logs on 2024-03-17 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:56:49 | <arahael> | With sqlite-simple, I have a table, and another table that joins the first using a primary key with a many-one relationship. How can I add this data to the fromRow implementation? |
| 00:56:56 | <arahael> | Can fromRow itself do queries? |
| 00:57:51 | <arahael> | I want to do: fromRow = MyDataType <$> field <*> field <*> (related data from another table) |
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| 01:10:43 | <arahael> | I suspect what I ultimately should do is have data types that more closely represent the query rows but I'm wondering if I can avoid that. |
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| 01:13:08 | <geekosaur> | I'd be surprised if you could. (And the old database guy in the back of my head is whispering "you're doing it wrong"…) |
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| 01:13:56 | <arahael> | Not really. I have a monsters stat table, and another table with "monster references" that describe the various book references I have for that monster. |
| 01:14:25 | <arahael> | One monster could be referenced in two different books. |
| 01:15:26 | <arahael> | So I think database wise, this is a sound schema. |
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| 01:23:55 | <arahael> | (How would the old database guy in the back of your head suggest this?) |
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| 01:28:52 | <EvanR> | arahael, you can use a tuple to get the results of a join query |
| 01:28:54 | <geekosaur> | oh, it's a sound schema; it's trying to combine them into a single row like that without doing it on the database side (that is, a join) that is unsound |
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| 01:29:05 | <EvanR> | if you don't want to make a dedicated type |
| 01:30:05 | <EvanR> | sqlite-simple doesn't care if your results reflect an object or a random combination of things made with SQL |
| 01:30:30 | <geekosaur> | doing it in fromRow on the "one" side may produce more than one row, doing it on the "many" side reqquires an extra SELECT which not only isn't permitted by fromRow's type, but will be fairly slow unless it's cached somewhere |
| 01:32:38 | <arahael> | geekosaur: If I did it as a join, it would be multiple rows. |
| 01:32:51 | <arahael> | EvanR: How do I do that? |
| 01:33:05 | <arahael> | I would prefer not to make dedicated types. |
| 01:33:12 | <geekosaur> | well, yes. but if it's one to many, it is multiple rows |
| 01:34:00 | <arahael> | geekosaur: fromRow's type contains these book references as a list type. |
| 01:38:18 | <geekosaur> | mm. think I'd make those `Maybe`s and fill them in afterward |
| 01:38:38 | <geekosaur> | (or the HKD version if you want to be fancy-pants) |
| 01:40:31 | <arahael> | geekosaur: Well, it's a list, so I could have them start out as empty. |
| 01:40:39 | <arahael> | What's the HKD approach? |
| 01:41:23 | <arahael> | I need to head out. But filling them in afterwards seems the way to go. |
| 01:41:34 | <geekosaur> | instead of having separate `(Maybe thing)` and `thing` versions, you have one `f thing` and instantiate `f` as `Maybe` or `Identity`, possibly with a type family to hide the `Identity` one |
| 01:42:08 | <geekosaur> | ime it's not worth the hassle, but some folks like it |
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| 01:42:27 | <arahael> | I think it'd be easier to have db-specific types if I was going that all out on it. I'm not going to do that. |
| 01:42:38 | <arahael> | Ok, I gotta head out, thanks for the help and suggestions! |
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| 07:23:39 | <arahael> | geekosaur: Update: It worked really nicely, took me a bit of a moment to figure out how to do it because I didn't have enough to complete the type, until I realised that it was using an Applicative instance, so I could easily put in the instance I wanted using pure. |
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| 09:14:53 | <lyxia> | Has anyone used Control.Monad.ST.Lazy? Anything that uses mutability is going to be a strict action anyway so I don't see the point. |
| 09:22:09 | <c_wraith> | I see the point, but in every case in which I see the point, unsafeInterleaveST is easier to understand. |
| 09:22:33 | <c_wraith> | One instance being some algorithm running on mutable data that produces a stream of results |
| 09:22:43 | <c_wraith> | The result stream is pure, and making it lazy is nice. |
| 09:25:19 | <c_wraith> | Maybe lazy ST can solve that same problem without needing to make sure you use unsafeInterleaveST correctly? |
| 09:27:32 | <lyxia> | That might be it, and I tend to agree with your assessment. |
| 09:31:09 | <c_wraith> | yeah, it does seem to allow that use case |
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| 09:36:16 | <c_wraith> | > let xs = LST.runST $ do { r <- LST.newSTRef 0 ; fix $ \loop -> do { x <- LST.readSTRef r ; LST.writeSTRef r $! x + 1 ; (x:) <$> loop } } in take 10 xs |
| 09:36:18 | <lambdabot> | [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9] |
| 09:36:40 | <c_wraith> | ... after having told lambdabot to import Control.Monad.ST.Lazy and Data.STRef.Lazy as LST |
| 09:38:14 | <c_wraith> | and that's clearly something that wouldn't terminate with regular ST, without unsafeInterleaveST |
| 09:46:02 | <lyxia> | too bad it can't stream trees |
| 09:47:45 | <c_wraith> | yeah, unsafeInterleaveST is still more powerful. And maybe easier to understand. |
| 09:48:49 | <c_wraith> | also, I'm not actually sure that $! in my example is doing anything. |
| 09:49:27 | <c_wraith> | I'm going to continue to just use unsafeInterleaveST, because I can actually predict it. |
| 09:58:28 | Kayzen | is now known as kayzen |
| 10:09:21 | <kayzen> | How does the garbage collection work in haskell? I cant wrap my head around how having no mutable variables can be efficient. |
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| 10:31:34 | <tomsmeding> | similar to other languages, I think |
| 10:31:47 | <tomsmeding> | oh they left |
| 10:35:42 | <tomsmeding> | > let xs = runST $ do { r <- newSTRef 0 ; fix $ \loop -> do { x <- readSTRef r ; writeSTRef r $! x + 1 ; (x:) <$> Control.Monad.ST.Unsafe.unsafeInterleaveST loop } } in take 10 xs |
| 10:35:43 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 10:35:43 | <lambdabot> | Not in scope: ‘Control.Monad.ST.Unsafe.unsafeInterleaveST’ |
| 10:35:43 | <lambdabot> | No module named ‘Control.Monad.ST.Unsafe’ is imported. |
| 10:35:55 | <tomsmeding> | @let import qualified Control.Monad.ST.Unsafe as STUnsafe |
| 10:35:56 | <lambdabot> | /sandbox/tmp/.L.hs:65:1: error: |
| 10:35:56 | <lambdabot> | Control.Monad.ST.Unsafe: Can't be safely imported! |
| 10:35:56 | <lambdabot> | The module itself isn't safe. |
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| 10:36:36 | <tomsmeding> | % let xs = runST $ do { r <- newSTRef 0 ; fix $ \loop -> do { x <- readSTRef r ; writeSTRef r $! x + 1 ; (x:) <$> STUnsafe.unsafeInterleaveST loop } } in take 10 xs |
| 10:36:36 | <yahb2> | [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9] |
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| 12:23:43 | <ph88> | Does anyone have experience with Data.Judy? Is it really faster than Map and HashMap ? |
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| 12:36:23 | <probie> | ph88: What operations are you doing? There are definitely a lot of use cases where a judy array (or even just a regular mutable hashmap) will outperform `Map` and `HashMap`. |
| 12:40:15 | <ph88> | mutable hashmap from hashtables ? |
| 12:40:40 | <ph88> | well i'm doing inserts and lookups. Or i will when my code is ready ^^ |
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| 13:18:22 | <tomsmeding> | ph88: if you're currently using an immutable map like containers:Map or unordered-containers:HashMap, and you are fine with the map living in ST or IO, I'd start with plain @hackage hashtables |
| 13:18:37 | <tomsmeding> | you can always benchmark and see if you need something special |
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| 15:12:41 | <ph88> | thx tomsmeding |
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| 15:36:24 | <pagnol> | I'm looking at Haskell again after a long break, wondering if anything has happened that improved the situation around records? |
| 15:37:20 | <Rembane> | pagnol: When did you last do Haskell? |
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| 15:38:22 | <pagnol> | Good question, I think mostly before the ghc 8 release |
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| 15:39:00 | <Rembane> | Cool, that's some time ago. Welcome back! |
| 15:39:47 | <Rembane> | I think these language extensions are the most concrete improvements to record handling: https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/records.html |
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| 15:44:28 | <tomsmeding> | interesting that -XNoTraditionalRecordSyntax exists |
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| 15:50:31 | <pagnol> | maybe that would come in handy if one decided to use lenses entirely? |
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| 15:54:45 | <yushyin> | DuplicateRecordFields, NamedFieldPuns, NoFieldSelectors is my usual baseline by now |
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| 18:03:08 | <cheater> | is return in rust like return in haskell or like return in visualjavacobolscript |
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| 18:07:23 | <yushyin> | https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/keyword.return.html this? |
| 18:07:36 | <tomsmeding> | return in rust is standard imperative return |
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| 18:07:53 | <tomsmeding> | the only non-traditional thing in rust is that an expression as the last thing in a block is implicitly retuend |
| 18:07:55 | <tomsmeding> | *returned |
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| 18:15:27 | <EvanR> | return in haskell :( |
| 18:15:40 | <EvanR> | not what it says on the tin |
| 18:15:42 | <tomsmeding> | are you of camp pure |
| 18:16:00 | <EvanR> | in context of this question about rust yes |
| 18:16:38 | <tomsmeding> | I'm on the fence but I wouldn't complain if 'return' were deprecated or something |
| 18:16:45 | <tomsmeding> | ignoring backwards compatibility |
| 18:16:56 | <EvanR> | if you give me decades of return in other languages, I give you :( haskell's naming of return |
| 18:17:03 | <tomsmeding> | if you don't ignore backwards compatibility (i.e. practically) I'm vehemently against deprecating 'return' :p |
| 18:17:09 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
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| 18:25:35 | <probie> | Personally, I'm for `return` being deprecated, but over a period of time in the order of 5-10 years |
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| 18:40:48 | <cheater> | i prefer haskell's return |
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| 18:42:31 | <tomsmeding> | cheater: also in an imperative language? Or do you mean you prefer 'return' over 'pure' |
| 18:42:54 | <cheater> | i don't see a problem with either |
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| 18:43:23 | <cheater> | i never like, find myself programming in bash, writing return 1, and thinking it'll create an array that contains 1 as the first element |
| 18:43:38 | <tomsmeding> | well that's what it'd do in haskell |
| 18:43:44 | <tomsmeding> | so what do you mean that you prefer haskell's return? :p |
| 18:44:21 | <cheater> | no, i mean that i prefer things the way they are right now and there's no confusion. |
| 18:44:30 | <tomsmeding> | right |
| 18:44:37 | <cheater> | the usual argument is that it's too confusing to have the same name for two different things |
| 18:45:04 | <tomsmeding> | I think 99.999% of the confusion about the name 'return' is expecting imperative-language-return in haskell, not the other way round :p |
| 18:45:07 | <cheater> | and so people keep coming up with various names: yield, wrap, pure, pack, ... |
| 18:45:16 | <cheater> | yeah well |
| 18:45:27 | <cheater> | there's more confusing things than that in haskell if you've never programmed in haskell |
| 18:45:31 | <tomsmeding> | for sure |
| 18:45:31 | <cheater> | it's just stuff that needs to be learned |
| 18:45:42 | <cheater> | can't be good on the first day |
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| 18:47:27 | <tomsmeding> | hence my stand on this -- I think 'pure' is a better name than 'return' for haskell's thing, so idealistically I'd say that 'return' be deprecated (but the sheer backwards compatibility cataclysm means that I think this is actually a very bad idea) |
| 18:47:36 | <tomsmeding> | but I don't really mind if things stay the way they are |
| 18:47:43 | <tomsmeding> | MonadOfNoReturn would be cute, though |
| 18:49:29 | <cheater> | pure isn't for monads though. |
| 18:49:44 | <tomsmeding> | it works just fine for monads |
| 18:49:53 | <tomsmeding> | same reason why we don't need mempty now that Semigroup => Monoid |
| 18:50:15 | <cheater> | only coincidentally, but conflating these for the convenience of people who don't care to learn the most basic things in haskell isn't a huge selling point for me |
| 18:50:20 | <tomsmeding> | or would you prefer to use 'return' when you're using the thing as a monad, and 'pure' when you aren't? |
| 18:50:33 | <cheater> | our community is tiny enough as it is, if you break all libraries ever for a bullshit reason the language will finally die |
| 18:50:35 | <tomsmeding> | I don't think it's a conflation |
| 18:50:40 | <tomsmeding> | they are the same thing! |
| 18:51:11 | <tomsmeding> | fair |
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| 21:38:43 | <haskellbridge> | <Jade> I changed my mind on deprecating return, but it'd be nice to see it gone from the Monad class atleast |
| 21:39:01 | <haskellbridge> | <Jade> I use pure almost exclusively and when people ask I tell them to use pure |
| 21:40:23 | <geekosaur> | damn, the proposal appears to have been stuck since 2015 |
| 21:55:37 | <monochrom> | At the risk of being way too conservative, I am OK with the current status of just warning "your return is not simply pure" but still allow it for old code that implements return in Monad instances. |
| 21:56:45 | <monochrom> | But if we have data that says "that's negligible tiny minority on hackage" then we can drop it. :) |
| 21:57:19 | <monochrom> | But yeah when teaching new students I just teach pure. |
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| 22:02:20 | <geekosaur> | I think the problem is old code which retrofitted Applicative instances: `instance Applicative MyMonad where { return = pure; (<*>) = ap; }` |
| 22:02:48 | <geekosaur> | from when AMP went through |
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