Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-03-18 (liberachat/#haskell)

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02:31:11 <clairejoseph> Hi, how do I become  contributor?
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03:27:46 × [itchyjunk] quits (~itchyjunk@user/itchyjunk/x-7353470) (Remote host closed the connection)
03:28:03 ski usually uses `return' with `do'-notation, and `pure' otherwise
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03:57:53 × mikoto-chan quits (~mikoto-ch@ip-83-134-169-166.dsl.scarlet.be) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
04:00:25 <jackdk> I find `return`, even within `do`-notation, to activate wrong intuitions inherited from imperative programming and much prefer to use `pure` for most things. For `Maybe`, `Either e` and `[]` monads, I tend to write `Just`, `Right`, and `[]` explicitly as a visual cue to remind me what monad is in play.
04:00:31 × xigua quits (~xigua@user/xigua) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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04:24:10 × JimL quits (~quassel@89.162.16.26) (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
04:27:09 <arahael> I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but with HXT, I'm always feeling myself lost in the data structure. For example, right now I vaguely think I have an "NTree XNode" which I believe is some sort of attribute node. And I've forgotten where the attribute values are.
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04:28:14 <arahael> I think HXT prefers that I use "Arrows" instead, but nothing else I uses arrows.
04:32:39 <arahael> I mean, I can persevere, with a ton of 'show a', to try and visualise what it is I'm dealing iwth, and then pattern matching with what I discover, but it's tedious.
04:39:00 <arahael> Value wise, I have the attr's from an (XTag a attrs), which seems to be the xml attributes for the node.
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04:46:18 × k_hachig quits (~k_hachig@2607:fea8:351d:ef0:dd3f:bd40:d39e:dac7) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
04:47:55 <arahael> Consequently, I've written attrNameValue (NTree (XAttr b) [c]) = (fromJust $ XN.getLocalPart a, fromJust $ XN.getText c)
04:48:47 <arahael> Consequently, I've written attrNameValue a@(NTree (XAttr b) [c]) = (fromJust $ XN.getLocalPart a, fromJust $ XN.getText c)
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04:56:37 <jackdk> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/hxt-9.3.1.22/docs/Text-XML-HXT-Arrow-XmlArrow.html#v:getAttrValue seems like a lot of important stuff is on this typeclass. But I don't really remember HXT: I last used it ~10 years ago, it gave me a headache, and I'd probably use xml-conduit these days because that's what I most recently used.
04:57:39 × ski quits (~ski@ext-1-033.eduroam.chalmers.se) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
04:59:12 × pavonia quits (~user@user/siracusa) (Quit: Bye!)
04:59:55 <probie> +1 for xml-conduit
05:02:05 <arahael> That looks a lot more approachable.
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07:51:18 <Hecate> good morning (CET) Haskell
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07:53:04 <arahael> G'eve'ning (AEDT) haskell. :)
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08:02:31 <Hecate> arahael: how's it going?
08:02:36 <Hecate> are the monads behaving?
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08:15:54 <arahael> Hecate: Wow, you have good memories. I took a bit of a break from haskell - from most things actually. And now, somehow, haskell is a bit easier. Monads are pretty good.
08:18:03 <Hecate> arahael: glad to hear you had a nice break :)
08:18:16 <Hecate> yeah, a rested brain makes things easier :)
08:19:22 <arahael> Definitely :)
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10:24:08 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> Rest?
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10:34:16 <Hecate> yeah the thing we are usually bad at :P
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12:06:02 <jackdk> I thought we were lazy functional programmers/
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15:38:10 <c_wraith> I'm certainly lazy. Though I do think it's funny that I put a library on hackage in 2022 because I felt like it was missing, and it got its first actual user like a week ago.
15:38:30 <c_wraith> that wasn't lazy of me!
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15:39:41 <L29Ah> did the user note that you forgot to include something vital in your release tarballs, or why do you think so?
15:41:38 <c_wraith> oh, I was responding to a remark from a few hours ago: I thought we were lazy functional programmers
15:41:58 <c_wraith> I'm usually lazy, but was accidentally eager that time!
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15:52:22 <tomsmeding> c_wraith: I guess they were asking, maybe you had users all the time but you just didn't know :)
15:52:36 <tomsmeding> doesn't discount the fact that it was very eager of you
15:52:42 <c_wraith> theoretically possible.
15:53:25 <c_wraith> and I did discover some documentation errors (typos, half-forgotten sentences) when I was asked about the library. So fixing those was definitely by demand.
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16:51:54 <Guest11> !djinn ((((a->b)->b)->b)->b) -> ((a->b)->b)
16:52:30 <int-e> ?djinn ((((a->b)->b)->b)->b) -> ((a->b)->b)
16:52:30 <lambdabot> f a b = a (\ c -> c b)
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17:10:48 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> meta-question: does the monad `return` discussion regularly happen here now and then?
17:10:56 <geekosaur> yes
17:11:00 <geekosaur> every couple months
17:11:24 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> Ah.
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17:14:37 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> Can't help but feel like monads are just the tip of the iceberg, and I don't see how people talk more often about other horrors under the surface
17:14:47 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> talk less often*
17:15:09 <geekosaur> oh, lots of other things come up as well
17:15:40 <geekosaur> but some of them are so entrenched that it'd be virtually impossible to get rid of them without breaking the whole ecosystem at this point (for example, `Num`)
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17:16:21 <geekosaur> but that one is also a recurring discussion
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17:16:42 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> forgot to specify, i meant "talk" as in beginner-related discussions
17:18:52 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> geekosaur: "breaking", as in, rebuilding from scratch?
17:19:09 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> now that I think about it that sounds more horrifying
17:19:39 <geekosaur> pretty much; requiring so many changes to existing programs as to be rather close to rewrites
17:19:47 <geekosaur> `Num` is, after all, pretty fundamental
17:20:41 <geekosaur> compare AMP, where it mostly sufficed to add 1 line to every monad instance (`instance Applicative MyMonad where { pure = return; (<*>) = ap; }`)
17:20:42 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> wait isn't the haskell type system designed to be as modular as possible? unless if renaming all `Num`s to `Ring` would break git repositories :p
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17:21:23 <geekosaur> that would be rather more than just renaming, since `Ring` implies a lot of underlying machinery
17:21:57 <geekosaur> and runs straight into Haskell being able to support only one typeclass instance per type, so you can't even define `Ring` properly
17:22:19 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> oh wait, right, `Num`'s been around for quite a while so there's probably a handful of projects that depend on `signum`
17:23:47 <geekosaur> (`numeric-prelude` etc. use various unsatisfying hacks)
17:23:56 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> ah, is this what they call a supply chain?
17:24:25 <geekosaur> annd yeh, removing stuff from `Num` or successor would also be a source of breakage
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17:29:34 <Hecate> that would warrant bumping the epoch version number of base to 5.*
17:29:34 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> I just checked numeric-prelude... and in `Algebra.RealTranscedental`, I found something concerning: `class (C a, C a) => C a`
17:29:47 <Hecate> haha
17:29:48 <Hecate> aouch
17:30:00 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> Is this one of the hacks you talked about?
17:30:11 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> Because if not, then it certainly is a lot worse
17:30:35 <dolio> numeric-prelude is designed in a particular style that does not work well with various tooling.
17:30:38 <geekosaur> no, that's just Henning Thielmann
17:30:59 <geekosaur> all the `C`s there are actually qualified, but haddock doesnt show it
17:32:23 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> good to know
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17:42:46 <probie> The hyperlinks in haddock point to the correct places though
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17:47:02 <c_wraith> I'm still surprised Henning didn't take his style to the logical conclusion. Why only .T and .C? He could have gone all the way to .v!
17:50:46 <tomsmeding> well a 'v' is a value, not a type, is it? :p
17:51:00 <c_wraith> yes. only one value per module, of course!
17:51:54 <geekosaur> you less often export values. and I suppose extending it to .f is more work and risks needing .hs-boot files
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18:24:55 <dolio> Yeah, I'll never understand the style.
18:25:23 <dolio> It just seems bad no matter what you do. Like, if you don't qualify, everything is incomprehensibly named the same thing.
18:26:02 <geekosaur> he's just taking "everything should be qualified" to its (il?)logical conclusion
18:26:03 <dolio> And if you do qualify, then all your names have garbage at the end, like `ActualName.T`.
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19:07:46 <EvanR> in some popular languages now, qualifying everything is taken seriously and is seriously annoying
19:08:00 <EvanR> it's like willfully not using language efficienctly
19:08:37 <EvanR> and in those cases they have non henning names on top of the modular names for added redundancy
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20:47:05 <tomsmeding> I wonder if he would have been happier if haskell had some kind of syntax where x.f y z was sugar for f x y z
20:47:21 <tomsmeding> some languages have that, e.g. nim
20:49:12 <tomsmeding> https://nim-lang.org/docs/tut2.html#object-oriented-programming-method-call-syntax
20:49:48 tomsmeding doesn't use nim, just found this particular syntax funny
20:50:44 <tomsmeding> oh uh, this is superficially similar but something different
20:51:36 <tomsmeding> okay it's just `import qualified Data.Map.Strict as Map ; import Data.Map.Strict (Map)` except hate for double import lines?
20:52:27 <EvanR> haskell: sqrt(x^2 + y^2) OOP: (x.^2.+ y.^2).sqrt lisp: (sqrt (+ (^2 x) (^2 y)))
20:53:12 <tomsmeding> no, haskell would put a space before that (
20:53:13 <EvanR> *I rest my case*
20:53:28 <EvanR> what's a space between friends
20:53:50 <tomsmeding> ooh that .+ is evil
20:54:06 <tomsmeding> that's smalltalk-level evil
20:54:41 <EvanR> yeah that is what my brain jumps to when I see x.f y z = f x y z
20:55:08 <tomsmeding> it's making the OOP people happy so that they can arr.length
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20:57:06 <geekosaur> perl IO syntax, anyone?
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21:03:12 <mauke> give $dog @treats; # $dog->give(@treats); "indirect object syntax"
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21:04:40 <probie> smalltalk isn't evil, it just had to give up a bit of syntactic sugar in the name of purity
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21:47:03 <haskellbridge> <s​m> smalltalk is far from
21:47:04 <haskellbridge> <s​m> evil
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22:03:18 tomsmeding wasn't being very serious :p
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All times are in UTC on 2024-03-18.