Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-03-22 (liberachat/#haskell)

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02:05:53 <dmj`> jle`: o/ hmm, I don't think there's any general way to perform lowering for any (a :: k) in base (unless its like natVal / symbolVal, which have their own special lowering classes, which aren't general ofc).
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02:09:28 <dmj`> would like to be proved wrong tho
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03:59:19 <jle`> dmj`: o/ thanks. maybe i feel like it should be possible in ghc in theory
03:59:48 <jle`> as in it could maybe be implemented
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04:07:36 <jackdk> What if you had a typelevel version of generics?
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11:30:05 <ph88> does deriving Show instances slow down code ?
11:32:58 <int-e> By what mechanism? I mean it'll slow down compilation; it may produce extra code so it can affect how code is cached... other than that, I don't think so? Unless you're comparing it to manually written Show instances I guess.
11:33:01 <ski> slow down which code ?
11:33:52 <ph88> other code in the program on runtime
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11:37:13 <tomsmeding> not in any obvious ways, but anything might affect anything else once you're concerned about cache effects
11:37:21 <tomsmeding> at which point basically your only option is "profile"
11:37:43 <tomsmeding> but that's also the point where changing anything anywhere might change anything because code alignment changes or whatever
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12:55:22 <tomsmeding> I love that the interleaving you get when writing to a Handle from multiple threads is deterministic https://paste.tomsmeding.com/3TbWyDKD
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13:10:22 <ph88> does anyone use the ghci debugger actually? i never found i could actually use it to get some practical debugging done and always resolve to Debug.Trace
13:11:19 <int-e> ph88: same here but I'm not sure whether it's an old habit that is good enough or an actual shortcoming of the ghci debugger
13:14:09 <int-e> I've never seriously tried to use the ghci debugger. Heck, I just had to look up that the command that shows partially evaluated values is :print.
13:15:34 <sadie_> i've used it a couple times to try and find non-terminating loops but i found that the profiling tools are way better at that
13:15:39 <int-e> (Which is the one feature I actually remember playing around with a few times because it's something that Debug.Trace cannot do at all.)
13:15:44 <tomsmeding> wasn't that :sprint
13:16:39 <int-e> tomsmeding: :sprint is like :print but less verbose? the s is "simplified"
13:16:46 <tomsmeding> oh
13:16:56 <tomsmeding> maybe that's why it never did what I wanted it to do?
13:16:57 <int-e> there's :force if you want to force a value and print it.
13:17:09 tomsmeding has never seriously tried to use this stuff
13:20:16 <int-e> I wouldn't know this if I hadn't just looked at the command list :)
13:21:17 <ph88> https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server/issues/1906
13:24:17 <ph88> https://github.com/haskell/haskell-language-server/discussions/3042 https://github.com/phoityne/haskell-debug-adapter maybe i ought to try that see if the experience improves
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15:24:49 <dmj`> jle`: I bet you're right, at the very least there could be a generic deriving made to lower types that data kinds have lifted
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17:46:40 <hololeap> I'm trying to understand lazy pattern matching in IO. my intention for this block of code is that it will only run listDirectory when it matches 'e' as True: https://bpa.st/7NEQ
17:47:20 <hololeap> will this code behave the way I intend it to?
17:47:38 <ncf> no
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17:49:23 <hololeap> umm... why not? what's wrong here
17:49:53 <mauke> e is already "lazy"/irrefutable
17:50:01 <mauke> ~e is just e again
17:50:42 <hololeap> ok, so ~e should be changed to e and then it will behave the way I want it to?
17:50:44 <mauke> (for any variable e, such as cs)
17:50:48 <mauke> no
17:51:07 <ncf> if you want short-circuiting you should use a monadic boolean operator, like liftIO $ doesDirectoryExist d &&^ (notNull <$> listDirectory d)
17:51:14 <mauke> why do you think it would make a difference when I just told you ~e is the same as e?
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17:51:50 <hololeap> the crucial part is (for any variable e, such as cs), which you hadn't said yet...
17:52:14 <mauke> ?
17:52:41 <hololeap> ?
17:52:58 <mauke> I don't see how that's an answer to my question
17:53:19 <hololeap> this is getting rediculous
17:53:47 <mauke> anyway, the point is that ... <- listDirectory is what causes listDirectory to run, not anything happening to the result later
17:54:19 <mauke> there is evil magic that allows for this sort of "lazy I/O", but it's not related to pattern matching
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17:56:47 <mauke> (also, it's "ridiculous", which is quite a silly word considering that it's Latin, and English uses the Germanic "laugh" for everything else)
17:57:05 <hololeap> omg the pedantry is off the charts here. I'm going to move to #haskell-beginners
17:59:45 <mauke> hololeap: even if you fix the control flow, that code has a race condition (TOC/TOU)
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18:00:37 <mauke> I'd recommend doing listDirectory and catching isDoesNotExistError
18:00:54 <haskellbridge> <s​m> or #haskell:matrix.org. But yes! It's r*i*diculous :)
18:01:16 <int-e> mauke: but if you worry about that you cannot use this whole function in any meaningful way
18:01:23 <mauke> oh, there is "risible", but no one says that
18:01:38 <int-e> (that I can think of)
18:01:47 <ncf> risible : ridiculous :: laughable : ?
18:01:57 <ncf> laughabulous
18:02:22 <int-e> because the function is itself a check which presumably is used under the assumption that the directory will continue to be non-empty later.
18:03:26 <mauke> blargh, why is the unix directory API so awful
18:03:42 <int-e> because of POSIX?
18:03:48 <haskellbridge> <s​m> hysterical raisins
18:04:00 <mauke> no, POSIX is after the fact
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18:05:29 <mauke> I'm talking about the unix API, not Haskell stuff specifically
18:05:38 <int-e> ah
18:05:56 <int-e> sorry, I thought it was the haskell package :)
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18:06:23 <ncf> hololeap: (you don't have to actually use (&&^), you can just inline its definition. exercise: write its definition)
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18:06:43 <ncf> (&&^) :: Monad m => m Bool -> m Bool -> m Bool
18:07:29 <mauke> what package is that from?
18:07:36 <ncf> like a dozen of them
18:07:49 <mauke> import 12
18:08:02 <int-e> @hackage (&&^)
18:08:02 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/(&&^)
18:08:09 <int-e> err
18:08:13 <int-e> @hoogle (&&^)
18:08:13 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.Extra (&&^) :: Monad m => m Bool -> m Bool -> m Bool
18:08:13 <lambdabot> Extra (&&^) :: Monad m => m Bool -> m Bool -> m Bool
18:08:13 <lambdabot> Protolude (&&^) :: Monad m => m Bool -> m Bool -> m Bool
18:08:14 <mauke> haha
18:09:07 <mauke> do you happen to know how readdir() is supposed to behave in the presence of a concurrent process modifying the directory?
18:09:09 <ncf> it goes by other names too: and2M
18:09:50 <int-e> @hackage extra
18:09:50 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/extra
18:09:53 <int-e> (found one of them)
18:09:59 <ncf> i wonder what an appropriate generalisation of this would be. perhaps over an arbitrary semiring?
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18:10:49 <ncf> or monoid-with-left-annihilator, whatever that's called
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18:13:22 <ncf> found more names: andLazy, (<&&>)
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18:13:43 <ncf> (&&&), (<&=>)
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21:09:19 <shapr> Wow, I just spent days finding this bug
21:09:40 <shapr> As far as I can tell, one of the `shrink` definitions is return the same value, claiming it's a shrunk value
21:10:08 <shapr> also as far as I can tell, Test.Hspec.QuickCheck does not have a default value for max shrinks
21:10:39 <shapr> combined, that means any failing case would spin forever and never return
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21:12:08 <haskellbridge> <s​m> ouch
21:12:28 <haskellbridge> <s​m> shouldn't the test framework detect that
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21:12:56 <shapr> I don't know, should it?
21:13:25 <haskellbridge> <s​m> if it can, I think it should. Sounds like it doesn't!
21:14:00 <haskellbridge> <s​m> and/or it should have some hard limit
21:14:15 <haskellbridge> <s​m> and/or it should have some upper limit
21:14:47 <shapr> If there isn't already a default value for maxShrinks in Test.Hspec.QuickCheck, I will put up a pull request to create one
21:15:25 <shapr> Another fix could a shrink wrapper that checks for previously return values?
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21:16:02 <haskellbridge> <s​m> yeah, you'd think it could compare previous and next value
21:16:24 <shapr> that wouldn't find a cycle, but it would catch the simplest case
21:17:03 <haskellbridge> <s​m> ah, true
21:30:29 <tomsmeding> Arbitrary doesn't have Eq as a superclass
21:32:27 <glguy> shapr: which shrink default implementation does that?
21:32:57 <tomsmeding> QuickCheck has Args.maxShrinks
21:34:06 <shapr> glguy: pretty sure it's one of the hand written shrink definitions in this library
21:34:14 <shapr> aka, it's likely my own fault
21:35:07 <tomsmeding> shapr: and the default value for maxShrinks is maxBound :: Int
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21:38:37 <shapr> ohhh
21:38:52 <shapr> tomsmeding: is that from hspec or quickcheck?
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21:48:29 <shapr> tomsmeding: aha I found it https://github.com/nick8325/quickcheck/blob/master/src/Test/QuickCheck/Test.hs#L172
21:55:10 <shapr> so if I'd waited for (maxBound :: Int) shrinks, I would have seen the problem.
21:55:14 <shapr> > maxBound :: Int
21:55:15 <lambdabot> 9223372036854775807
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21:57:09 <haskellbridge> <s​m> how long would that have taken
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21:59:35 <shapr> too long
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22:37:20 <shapr> I think the moral of this story is to set maxShrinks to a human reasonable value by default.
22:37:34 <shapr> Or maybe wrap every QuickCheck test in a timeout?
22:38:20 <glguy> Maybe we should lower the value of maxBound :: Int to something more manageable
22:38:55 <shapr> That's the enterprise approach
22:39:02 <shapr> Do you work for a startup? :-D
22:39:21 <shapr> @remember glguy Maybe we should lower the value of maxBound :: Int to something more manageable
22:39:22 <lambdabot> Done.
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22:39:48 <glguy> we're turning 25 soon, so probably too old to be a proper up-start
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22:40:43 <shapr> too bad
22:41:19 <shapr> glguy: but seriously, any thoughts on this problem?
22:42:18 <glguy> I suspect that the QuickCheck authors are using maxBound as a stand-in for infinity and if you want earlier termination you're supposed to explicitly call for a smaller bound
22:43:39 <shapr> I'd believe that.
22:44:26 <glguy> I don't use quickcheck generally, so I don't have a strong opinion on the topic. It seems like a mistake if this library has a situation where: exists x. x `elem` shrink x
22:45:09 <glguy> > A final gotcha: we cannot define shrink as simply shrink x = Nil:genericShrink x as this shrinks Nil to Nil, and shrinking will go into an infinite loop.
22:45:10 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:60: error: parse error on input ‘=’
22:45:44 <glguy> the haddocks don't seem to actually explain the requirements of shrinking, but that example seems to preclude returning yourself
22:45:57 <shapr> good find
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22:52:51 <ph88> when i have a Data.Map with a key newtype Foo = Foo Int can i expect speed ups when getting rid of that newtype and using IntMap instead ?
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22:57:49 <monochrom> I think some benchmarks say yes and some benchmarks say no. :)
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