Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-03-26 (liberachat/#haskell)

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05:02:47 <mauke> > 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 + 2.3 $ ()
05:02:48 <lambdabot> error:
05:02:48 <lambdabot> • Could not deduce (Fractional (b0 -> c))
05:02:48 <lambdabot> (maybe you haven't applied a function to enough arguments?)
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06:45:20 <probie> % instance (a ~ String, b ~ String) => Num (a -> b) where { fromInteger = (++) . show ; f + g = \x -> f x ++ g x }
06:45:20 <yahb2> <interactive>:13:10: error: ; • Illegal equational constraint a ~ String ; (Use GADTs or TypeFamilies to permit this) ; • In the instance declaration for ‘Num (a -> b)’
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06:45:33 <probie> % :set -XGADTs
06:45:33 <yahb2> <no output>
06:45:39 <probie> % instance (a ~ String, b ~ String) => Num (a -> b) where { fromInteger = (++) . show ; f + g = \x -> f x ++ g x }
06:45:39 <yahb2> <interactive>:17:10: warning: [-Wmissing-methods] ; • No explicit implementation for ; ‘*’, ‘abs’, ‘signum’, and (either ‘negate’ or ‘-’) ; • In the instance declaration for ‘Num (a...
06:45:54 <probie> % instance (a ~ String, b ~ String) => Fractional (a -> b) where { fromRational = (++) . show }
06:45:54 <yahb2> <interactive>:19:10: warning: [-Wmissing-methods] ; • No explicit implementation for ; either ‘recip’ or ‘/’ ; • In the instance declaration for ‘Fractional (a -> b)’
06:46:05 <probie> % 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 + 2.3 $ ""
06:46:05 <yahb2> "11 % 1011 % 1011 % 1011 % 1011 % 1011 % 1023 % 10"
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08:49:32 <Inst> EvanR: Real World is ultimately built on magic, but the edifice is a consistent and logical system
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08:51:48 <Inst> grrr, still can't figure out how to get keys from a set / map
08:51:51 <Inst> via lens
08:52:32 tomsmeding . o O ( Data.Set.elems :: Set a -> [a] )
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08:55:48 <Inst> yeah but I'm trying to avoid the containers interface because it's not polymorphic enough for me :(
08:57:58 <ncf> > Set.fromList [0, 2, 4] ^.. folded
08:58:00 <lambdabot> error:
08:58:00 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘Set.fromList’
08:58:00 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
09:00:29 <danse-nr3> seems a bit silly to be honest. Different data structures provide different operations
09:00:38 <ncf> and for maps, > Map.fromList [(0, ()), (2, ()), (4, ())] ^.. folded . asIndex
09:01:12 <danse-nr3> :t folded
09:01:13 <lambdabot> (Indexable Int p, Contravariant f1, Foldable f2, Applicative f1) => p a (f1 a) -> f2 a -> f1 (f2 a)
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09:01:20 <danse-nr3> :t (^..)
09:01:21 <lambdabot> s -> Getting (Endo [a]) s a -> [a]
09:02:04 <danse-nr3> (also, good morning from this part of the world)
09:05:36 <Inst> thanks
09:05:42 <Inst> i still can't read lens type sigs
09:05:50 <Inst> i just know they work and if i get a type error i screwed up somewhere
09:05:50 <ncf> good thing you don't need to
09:06:46 <danse-nr3> i can't read them either ... was trying because the other day they were tamer so i hoped it was one of those cases
09:06:51 <danse-nr3> maybe ...
09:07:04 <danse-nr3> :t (^.. folded)
09:07:05 <lambdabot> Foldable f => f a -> [a]
09:07:44 <ncf> the actual type signatures you should read are in the haddocks
09:07:46 <ncf> folded :: Foldable f => IndexedFold Int (f a) a
09:10:09 <Inst> yeah but folded is basically equiv to fromList here :(
09:11:03 <ncf> well what else do you want
09:11:58 <Inst> foo = S.fromList [1..10]
09:12:11 <Inst> foo ?? [???} <===> 3
09:12:27 <ncf> what
09:12:57 <Inst> I want lens operations to extract the 3rd (2nd index) element from the Set Int foo
09:13:35 <Inst> foo ^.. folded & (!! 2) works
09:14:10 <danse-nr3> Set Int foo?
09:14:26 <danse-nr3> oh i see what you mean
09:14:41 <ncf> that's not really an operation Set provides...
09:15:27 <danse-nr3> yeah i never think of sets as anything ordered
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09:17:01 <ncf> but if you insist
09:17:19 <ncf> Set.fromList [1..10] ^? folded . index 2
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09:27:15 <Inst> i love you so much <3
09:27:16 <Inst> thanks
09:27:23 <Inst> ehhh, it still seems ridiculous, but what can I do :(
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09:56:09 <tomsmeding> the Set data structure does not store sizes of subtrees
09:56:14 <tomsmeding> so it cannot provide log-time indexing
09:56:29 <tomsmeding> Inst: so anything you'd do is linear-time, so you might as well go through toList
09:57:01 <tomsmeding> as notably distinct from Seq from Data.Sequence, which does provide log-time indexing
09:57:23 <tomsmeding> as danse-nr3 said, different data structures provide different operations
09:58:12 <tomsmeding> er wait
09:58:37 <tomsmeding> it does
09:58:40 <Inst> iirc Set is weird
09:58:49 <Inst> it's a balanced binary tree that stores its own size
09:58:57 <tomsmeding> :t Data.Set.elemAt
09:58:58 <lambdabot> Int -> S.Set a -> a
09:59:07 tomsmeding was mistaken
09:59:38 <tomsmeding> that's not a very weird data structure, but I remembered incorrectly
09:59:46 <Inst> maybe we just need better lenses for containers, some additions to Lens and Optics
09:59:50 <tomsmeding> (the size is use for balancing as well)
09:59:59 <tomsmeding> you can be the one to write them :)
10:00:27 <Inst> right now, my goal is to get the NixOS server set up, then to put out a prototype site, working on postgresql / servant / blaze or lucid stack
10:00:28 <ncf> no please don't write lenses for accessing the internal structure of Set
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10:00:54 <Inst> i just want to be able to access the key name, okay?
10:01:04 <tomsmeding> but indeed it's a bit strange that you'd want the _index_ of a value in a Set
10:01:16 <Inst> it's not exactly that I need an index
10:01:28 <Inst> when I use mySet ^. ix 3, I just get Just ()
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10:01:34 <tomsmeding> where does the 3 come from
10:01:38 <Inst> it's arbitrary
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10:01:48 <tomsmeding> why do you need this expression
10:01:53 <tomsmeding> what's the X problem :p
10:01:55 <ncf> sets are not for indexing into
10:02:25 <Inst> iirc, sets have indexing functions in their lib
10:02:33 <tomsmeding> they do, but why are you using them
10:02:49 <tomsmeding> what thing are you implementing that you need to access elements in a set by their index
10:02:55 <Inst> the goal is to not use the containers interface and just use the lens interface to provide a polymorphic way to work with data structures in haskell
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10:03:19 <tomsmeding> well accessing elements by their index smells of not using a set like it should be used :p
10:03:23 <Inst> because the containers import Data.Set qualified as Bleh shibboleth is horrible
10:03:36 <tomsmeding> that's the problem with data structures, they don't all have precisely the same interface
10:03:43 <Inst> I'm just floating a hypothesis
10:03:44 <tomsmeding> that's just the module system being annoying
10:03:52 <Inst> does it make more sense to teach Haskell with lens instead of monads? ;3
10:04:05 <tomsmeding> how does lens subsume monads
10:04:31 <tomsmeding> similar to how you don't want to index into a [] list
10:04:34 <Inst> insofar as the ideal is that after Haskell lessons, people get into practical programming, and monads are 80% a solved problem
10:04:45 <Inst> at least it's log n indexing!
10:04:49 <tomsmeding> you can, it's quite defineable, and lenses let you do it, but if you're indexing into a list you're probably doing the wrong thing
10:04:56 <ncf> you still haven't answered the question
10:05:03 <Inst> which one?
10:05:09 <ncf> why do you need to index into a Set
10:05:14 <tomsmeding> why don't you want to use a set like you're supposed to use it :p
10:05:24 <Inst> I want to index into a set to replace the entire Data.Set interface with Lens / Optics
10:05:27 <tomsmeding> not even talking about Data.Set.Set, just any set data structure will have this same discussion
10:05:39 <ncf> that's your end goal?
10:05:39 <tomsmeding> the key of a Set is not the index
10:05:42 <tomsmeding> the key is the value
10:05:43 <Inst> yeah
10:05:58 <Inst> except under ^. at... on Set, you get ()
10:06:04 <Inst> because it's treating it as a map of () values
10:06:23 <tomsmeding> then write a lens thing ish (I don't lens) that doesn't!
10:06:24 <ncf> lenses are about mathematical representations of data, they're certainly not about peeking into the internal structure of things
10:06:40 <Inst> ncf: yes, because the whole qualified imports shit on Vector and Containers feels like it defeats the point of typeclasses
10:07:22 <Inst> like how there's no generic fmap on set etc because they're not functors
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10:07:33 <ncf> if you're using Set.elemAt, you're either implementing some primitive function that nobody should look at, or using Set incorrectly. in either case, you shouldn't be using lens
10:07:35 <Inst> so you can sidestep the problem by going to lens instead
10:07:49 <tomsmeding> you cannot sidestep the problem by going to lens instead
10:07:56 <Inst> yeah, we can't :(
10:07:58 <tomsmeding> the problem that a Set is not a functor doesn't go away :p
10:08:13 <tomsmeding> you just hide it behind less readable types
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10:08:31 <tomsmeding> formulate the API that you want to use for a Set, convince yourself that that API is implementable, and then implement it
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10:08:38 <Inst> i still need to go through ploeh showing how Set can violate the functor composition law
10:08:39 <tomsmeding> well and that that API makes sense for the data structure
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10:09:24 <tomsmeding> the reason Set cannot implement Functor is that there's no way to implement `lookup` after you've fmapped in uncomparable values
10:09:42 <tomsmeding> perhaps you can find some interesting violation of functor laws as well
10:09:50 <Inst> it's just a pet peeve, and I think others pointed out there's no easy way to generate maps in Haskell, i.e, Haskell, unlike more recent languages, doesn't have special syntax for other data structures
10:09:55 <tomsmeding> but the banal point is that the data structure just only works on orderable elements :p
10:09:56 <Inst> hell, it doesn't even have special syntax for array
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10:10:44 <tomsmeding> what is `lookup id (fmap (+) (Set.fromList [1..5]))` supposed to do
10:11:18 <tomsmeding> any lensy interface that you devise that would allow this, is wrong
10:11:28 <Inst> Nothing? ;)
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10:11:45 <tomsmeding> any lensy interface that uses elemAt excessively, or even at all, is likely inefficient and probably suboptimal
10:11:59 <tomsmeding> Inst: well that point you're _definitely_ breaking the functor laws :p
10:12:22 <tomsmeding> at least when you combine them in a reasonable way with the properties of the Set methods
10:12:23 <Inst> since list lookup returns a maybe
10:12:41 <ncf> you're not breaking the functor laws
10:13:01 <tomsmeding> yeah no you're breaking the presumed property that fmap commutes with lookup
10:13:07 <tomsmeding> with sounds like a thing you really want to have
10:13:16 <ncf> are you?
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10:13:23 <Inst> anyways, the tentative plan is to provide a scripting dialect of haskell (or properly an eDSL) for the platform I want to use
10:13:27 <ncf> i don't get your example
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10:13:52 <Inst> so you can see how my concerns are different, i.e, the plan is that the platform is FOSS, the database is blockchain (eventually)
10:13:57 <Inst> but you can run apps on the platform
10:13:58 <tomsmeding> ncf: Inst was suggesting that (ignoring concerns of "you can't check if a type does _not_ implement a type class") if a Set contains uncomparable values, lookup should just always return Nothing
10:14:12 <ncf> oh sorry i skipped over half of the discussion
10:15:36 <tomsmeding> Inst: then the challenge you have is not "how do I use elemAt", but "how do I design an interface to a number of data structures that is consistent, conventional in lensy idioms, and still properly aligns to the varying support for various operations of those data structures"
10:15:38 <ncf> well, my point is just that the "exofunctor" instance for Set doesn't violate any functor laws. it's just not a Functor in the usual sense
10:16:12 <ncf> (for compile time reasons rather than runtime reasons)
10:16:18 <Inst> oh, i didn't understand what you meant by exofunctor to begin with
10:16:33 <ncf> silly word for "not endo"-functor
10:16:43 <tomsmeding> maybe the answer is to have `class CFunctor c f where cfmap :: c b => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b`
10:16:47 <ncf> in this case a functor from the subcategory of Hask on the Ord types to Hask
10:16:48 <tomsmeding> or, a part of the answer
10:16:50 <Inst> since Set a puts a restriction on a of being a member of Eq, and functor can theoretically move it to non-Eq
10:16:59 <Inst> which also creates the problem that, say, if it's non-Eq, how should Set behave?
10:17:11 <tomsmeding> maybe CFunctor can work well with the rest of lens! Maybe not!
10:17:23 <Inst> but Map at least is a functor, no?
10:17:29 <tomsmeding> if you want to map over sets using lensy stuff, that's the question you'll need to answer
10:17:30 <ncf> Map k is
10:17:34 <tomsmeding> yes, because you're mapping over the values, not the keys
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10:19:21 <tomsmeding> _embrace_ the fact that Set is not a Functor, and work with it
10:19:32 <tomsmeding> the fact that Set is not a Functor allows it to have logarithmic-time lookup
10:19:36 <tomsmeding> in a sense
10:20:15 <tomsmeding> if you care more about being a Functor then you should use lists instead :p
10:20:20 <Inst> as opposed to arrays with a constant time look-up? :)
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10:20:26 <tomsmeding> and linear-time insertion
10:20:32 <tomsmeding> it's all trade-offs
10:20:48 <Inst> yeah i'm still embarrassed i'm not good with ByteArray#
10:21:21 <tomsmeding> constant-insert linear-lookup ([a]), log-insert log-lookup (Map Int a), linear-insert constant-lookup (Array Int a)
10:21:56 <Inst> what's the standard implementation of set, anyways?
10:22:00 <tomsmeding> why do you need ByteArray# all of a sudden lol
10:22:01 <Inst> I'm surprised Data.Set is balanced binary tree
10:22:14 <mauke> what was that proposal for making datatype contexts useful again?
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10:22:16 <tomsmeding> Data.Vector.Mutable is good enough
10:22:45 <tomsmeding> Inst: what else would it be?
10:23:20 <tomsmeding> because it's Haskell you have to choose from the persistent data structures
10:23:31 <mauke> I remember something about swapping out Applicative for Monoidal and also making Set an instance of Functor
10:23:35 <Inst> I'm just not familiar enough with fundamentals of computer science to think of it as such, I'm only starting to implement stuff in C and going through Udemy DS courses (which without exception, suck)
10:23:39 <tomsmeding> balanced binary trees are a sweet spot that have log-time for most things and are still persistent
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10:23:47 <Inst> well, that's probably too harsh on Udemy, there's got to be a few good courses there
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10:24:16 <Inst> regarding sets, I'm just curious how sets are implemented in other languages
10:24:26 <Inst> I'd assume they'd be arrays with different accessors
10:24:34 <Inst> set object
10:24:35 <mauke> typically balanced trees or hashtables
10:24:39 <Inst> ah
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10:24:54 <Inst> Data.HashSet
10:24:58 <mauke> or bit arrays if the elements are enums
10:24:59 <tomsmeding> i.e. the same as Map k () ;)
10:25:09 <mauke> (hi, pascal)
10:25:10 <Inst> Data.HashMap :)
10:25:30 <tomsmeding> Inst: those are still balanced binary trees
10:25:50 <tomsmeding> a proper hash table is backed by an array and thus requires mutability to have sub-linear mutation
10:27:06 <tomsmeding> B-trees also exist as an implementation of maps (and thus sets), but those are still balanced trees, just not binary any more
10:27:22 <mauke> ooh, the thing I remember is "partial type constructors"!
10:28:00 <Inst> ack, w/e, going back to being psised at nixos-anywhere
10:28:04 <Inst> sorry about that
10:28:06 <tomsmeding> mauke: has the feeling of a hack that would break completely once haskell gets dependent enough
10:28:09 <tomsmeding> but I dunno :)
10:28:09 <Inst> i need to get the VPS running NixOS
10:28:40 <Inst> tbh if Haskell gets dependent enough, any thoughts on fixing the freaking DS syntax?
10:28:43 <tomsmeding> not because of the partiality, but because of the "where do you put the type class constraint"
10:28:53 <Inst> XOverloadedLists is an ugly hack and the type inference engine knows it
10:28:57 <mauke> https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3371108
10:29:01 <tomsmeding> -XOverloaded* needs to die
10:29:11 <tomsmeding> can I have -XNonOverloadedInts already
10:29:39 <mauke> -XNoOverloadedIntegers, please
10:29:50 <mauke> :-P
10:29:51 <tomsmeding> yes
10:30:02 <tomsmeding> and have 123i mean an Int literal
10:30:05 <tomsmeding> or something
10:30:08 <mauke> no, Integer
10:30:13 <Inst> default (Int, Float)
10:30:23 <mauke> you made your cake, now lie in it
10:30:33 <tomsmeding> and default declarations can go to hell as well
10:30:47 <tomsmeding> mauke: fair :p
10:31:25 <Inst> which language invented the [1 2 3] list syntax anyways?
10:31:32 <mauke> MicroHs defaults to "default ()" IIRC
10:32:20 <tomsmeding> mauke: ah, that paper gives a definition of Functor that is kind of in the direction of my CFunctor
10:32:49 tomsmeding questions that you need a custom type system for this
10:33:11 <tomsmeding> at the cost of some nice syntax, perhaps
10:33:17 <tomsmeding> anyway I also have work to do lol
10:34:33 <mauke> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqmCwpRXT_E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSWeQrQ9CCY
10:38:29 tomsmeding should watch that at some point
10:38:36 <tomsmeding> some interesting discussion under the munihac video
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10:46:44 <cheater> anyone here running the discourse?
10:46:49 <cheater> it's not sending out activation emails
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11:34:18 <tomsmeding> GHC at its best:
11:34:20 <tomsmeding> > Expected a type, but ‘a’ has kind ‘Type’
11:35:27 <Inst> okay, so Nixos-anywhere is deploying now
11:35:30 <Inst> I can BS a bit more
11:35:44 <Inst> have there been any attempts to replace HTML with a Haskell-based eDSL?
11:36:00 <Inst> Because the whole golden trinity thing, (HTML + CSS + JS), feels like BS to me
11:36:09 <Inst> I guess it's what's been driving the development of frameworks and so on
11:37:17 <Inst> HTML, even HTML5, is an ad-hoc pragmatic approach that has little logic other than historical precedent, CSS makes even less sense
11:39:44 <Inst> i mean in the sense of something that compiles to HTML etc, anyways
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13:22:47 <[exa]> Inst: you'd probably need to replace the whole DOM model in all browsers first, HTML is just a trasmissible encoding of DOM
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14:05:14 <Hecate> https://discourse.haskell.org/t/pre-hftp-ghc-should-offer-low-level-logging-infrastructure/9159/12
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14:22:23 <Inst> [exa]: it gets me thinking of FRP and attempts to create a functional GUI
14:22:50 <Inst> [exa]: I'm more thinking of something that transpiles to DOM, as an acceptable solution, until we have a proper functional GUI paradigm out
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14:54:27 <danse-nr3> my personal advice would be to do backend in haskell and frontend in purescript considering the current state of the ecosystem Inst. From the little i know you, you might not like to learn some purescript, yet that seems the most effective solution to me at the moment
14:54:52 <Inst> i actually would prefer javascript :3
14:55:45 <Inst> like nicholas nassim taleb's stance on "middlebrow" art and literature, he'd rather do the pop pulp stuff and the classics / avant garde stuff, but not in between
14:56:19 <danse-nr3> i thought you were asking about server-side rendering, then i must have misunderstood
14:56:28 <nullie> is reflex-dom still alive?
14:56:49 <danse-nr3> yeah some people use reflex as far as i know
14:56:57 <Inst> i'm not actually going to do something like that, i just want to get the site working, have it look attractive ,then slowly expand functionality
14:57:20 <Inst> my goal would be to have a Haskell eDSL for websites, which the server would then translate into html / css / js, etc
14:57:39 <danse-nr3> that is server-side rendering
14:58:25 <Inst> but that's like a long-term goal
14:59:00 <danse-nr3> i mean that is what yesod offered before client-side rendering became more comfortable
14:59:39 <Inst> did yesod really offer that?
14:59:53 <Inst> i tried it, i didn't feel it, you had shakespearean templates that didn't really impress me
15:01:12 <danse-nr3> i see what you mean. There were other attempts that get closer to an embedded language, but i don't think it is a viable path at the moment. Anyways, you seem to have more pressing goals
15:02:28 <Inst> i mean the goal is that users on the platform would be able to use the eDSL to build apps for it
15:02:57 <danse-nr3> huh i thought you wanted to make a "social marketplace"?
15:02:57 <Inst> and iirc the monomer developer eventually wants his app to be suitable for mobile apps as well
15:03:19 <Inst> an MMO of the real economy? I.e, some kind of weird metaverse concept?
15:03:37 <Inst> one of the big inspirations is Chinese omni-apps
15:03:52 <Inst> like, Wechat, there's tons of plug-in apps that wechat itself uses, connected to their payment system
15:04:19 <Inst> so you just use wechat, it downloads its own apps, runs those apps, and you can buy stuff from its client apps
15:04:58 <Inst> so an average user could easily design their own storefront app, or even a map app for their taxi service, etc
15:05:10 <danse-nr3> i lost you. Monomer for mobile could make sense, yes
15:06:04 <Inst> let's say i have a platform. The platform allows users to create their own apps to sell goods and services through their site
15:06:37 <danse-nr3> and then you deploy such apps ... where?
15:06:42 <Inst> on the website
15:06:53 <Inst> on the platform, properly, with both a web and mobile app version
15:07:19 <danse-nr3> and why would your website or app be full of buyers?
15:07:44 <Inst> i mean the prime target is fiver and upwork taking like 20-30% rakes
15:08:01 <danse-nr3> huh you are talking online jobs now
15:08:12 <Inst> ya, that's the core competency, or at least starting competency
15:08:34 <Inst> imagine if FOSS people (I'm not really one of them) decided to do a FOSS version of Uber, FiveRR, Upwork, and Amazon
15:08:41 <danse-nr3> yeah so my advice would be try to focus on the core because that sounds challenging already
15:08:56 <Inst> just put out a minimal app, that's essentially a social network
15:09:15 <Inst> then work on making it so that members of the social network can advertise for and arrange transactions through Stripe or Paypal
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15:10:46 <Inst> and see here:
15:10:47 <Inst> https://www.fiverr.com/gigs/microsoft
15:11:20 <Inst> this, in my intended product, would instead be the Microsoft store presence on the social app
15:11:30 <Inst> displaying the contracts they're buying and the contracts they're selling
15:11:54 <danse-nr3> sounds ambitious, good luck
15:12:25 <Inst> one step at a time, first step: get freaking nixos installed onto this VPS
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16:24:27 <dmj`> Inst: htmx looks cool, you should check that out. Building a web framework around it w/ wai and jmacro could be nice
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16:31:53 <Inst> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/lucid-htmx
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16:40:10 <haskellbridge> <J​ade> why does `take 10 <$> readFile "/dev/random" result in an error `invalid argument (cannot decode byte sequence starting from <N>` after reading a few bytes?
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16:41:03 <geekosaur> because your locale is probably a UTF8 and /dev/random can easily produce illegal UTF8 sequences
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16:51:39 <geekosaur> the documentation says errors should be discarded, but https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.8.1/docs/users_guide/bugs.html#in-prelude-support at end of subsection says ghc throws the error instead
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16:57:56 <ncf> what would happened if the error was discarded? would it read more data until 10 unicode characters are produced? i don't think that's what the report entails
16:57:59 <ncf> happen*
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16:58:51 <dmj`> Inst: yea but that's just generating htmx that has the data- annotations, I'm referring to mapping the ajax handlers back to pure haskell functions
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16:59:10 <geekosaur> the report says it acts like EOF
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17:00:44 <geekosaur> that said, this is actually a gray area: the report says I/O errors are discarded, but is silent about decoding errors (and in fact about decoding)
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17:03:59 <Inst> <Jade> Data.ByteString.readFile :3
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17:05:50 <Inst> actually, that doesn't work
17:06:41 <Inst> need Data.ByteString.Lazy.readFile
17:07:12 <Inst> and... it's beautiful :3
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17:29:29 <EvanR> utf8 allows resuming decoding after encountering nonsense, in case valid utf8 was corrupted at some point
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17:30:01 <EvanR> it could be used to derive fun and profit from /dev/random
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18:00:10 <Inst> wait, a binary tree can be foldr-ed, right?
18:00:59 <danza> i would expect so
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18:01:25 <Inst> oh, but this is really ugly
18:02:06 <Inst> nstance Foldable BTree where
18:02:07 <Inst> ghci| foldr f z Lf = z
18:02:07 <Inst> ghci| foldr f z (Br a cont1 cont2) = foldr f (f a (foldr f z cont1)) cont2
18:02:07 <Inst> ghci|
18:02:50 <Inst> should be in reverse
18:03:48 <Inst> yeah, switching the conts should be correct
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18:23:52 <EvanR> Inst, just replace the leaves with the z and the constructors with f
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18:27:22 <Inst> try it :3
18:27:33 <Inst> :t foldr
18:27:34 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
18:27:46 <Inst> you can't do it the easy way in a binary tree
18:28:25 <Inst> how about data RTree a = Rose [RTree a]?
18:29:05 <Inst> I'm busy trying to inject data BTree a = Lf | Br a (BTree a) (BTree a) into a traversable now
18:30:01 <tomsmeding> Inst: try writing the catamorphism
18:30:22 <tomsmeding> cataBTree :: r -> (a -> r -> r -> r) -> BTree a -> r
18:30:53 <tomsmeding> catamorphisms ("folds") are more well-behaved in a certain sense, but their signature naturally depends on the constructors of the data type
18:31:04 <tomsmeding> Data.Foldable.foldr is the catamorphism on lists
18:31:27 <tomsmeding> it so happens that you can also wrench it onto other data structures, but it was made for lists
18:31:48 <tomsmeding> EvanR: you could do that to /dev/urandom but you wouldn't get a uniform distribution on unicode codepoints
18:33:30 <Inst> i'm sort of embarrassed because I can't write instance Applicative BTree right now, nor can I write instance Applicative MyList :(
18:33:46 <tomsmeding> can you write the monad instance
18:34:02 <Inst> of course, that's easy
18:34:04 <tomsmeding> because then (<*>) = ap ;)
18:34:22 <Inst> yeah but that seems cheap
18:34:27 <Inst> and i keep on wondering if it's actually performant
18:34:40 <tomsmeding> it just calls (>>=) twice
18:35:09 <tomsmeding> you can expand the >>= calls manually and see what you end up with :p
18:35:17 <tomsmeding> and if you can simplify that
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18:36:56 <tomsmeding> the thing is that there are multiple possible Applicative instances for rose trees I think
18:37:11 <tomsmeding> and I think also multiple monad instances
18:37:26 <tomsmeding> Applicative and Monad for rose trees are the weirdest things
18:37:50 <tomsmeding> you're forced to combine things that ought to be separate, and it's kind of arbitrary how you do so
18:38:12 <ncf> every Monad instance yields two Applicative instances, for starters
18:38:32 <monochrom> :(
18:38:35 <tomsmeding> iirc for containers:Data.Tree.Tree there are actually multiple lawful monad instances
18:38:42 <tomsmeding> and none of them is sensible (imo)
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18:47:53 <EvanR> tomsmeding, uniform would be boring anyway
18:48:07 <tomsmeding> :p
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19:05:15 <Inst> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/2nrNVPi9
19:05:32 <Inst> oh, i'm an idiot
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19:06:36 <Inst> I don't think I can do better than this for explicit recursive solutions, right?
19:07:04 <tomsmeding> what is MyList
19:07:30 <Inst> data MyList a = MLL | MLBr a (MyList a)
19:07:58 <tomsmeding> which applicative instance are you going for :p
19:08:15 <tomsmeding> the interleaving one, presumably
19:08:21 <Inst> the standard one
19:08:24 <Inst> not ziplist
19:08:53 <Inst> i'm bored and bashing my head in against trying to install nixos, so might as well go review implementation of list applicatives and foldr
19:09:30 <tomsmeding> MLBr f fcont <*> l = fmap f l ++ (fcont <*> l)
19:09:32 <tomsmeding> right?
19:09:36 <EvanR> review your scriptures
19:09:54 <tomsmeding> potentially you can write a special-case fmap-plus-append
19:09:55 <monochrom> Explicit recursion is OK.
19:10:57 <Inst> the append is less efficient, no?
19:11:14 <tomsmeding> yeah, so you'd manually fuse fmap and append
19:11:24 <tomsmeding> which results in roughly the same code as you currently have :p
19:11:28 <tomsmeding> slightly less special-cased
19:11:34 <monochrom> In the case of list's <*>, it is even more enlightening to see that one of your two explicit recursions is just fmap.
19:11:36 <Inst> oh wait, append should be doubly strict? I forget
19:11:46 <tomsmeding> monochrom: have you looked at the paste
19:12:11 <monochrom> Yes. It has an outer recursion and an inner recursion. One of them is fmap.
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19:12:26 <tomsmeding> no
19:12:36 <tomsmeding> note the last equation of go
19:12:49 <Inst> yeah, it is, but the point is that i'm trying to avoid the <>
19:12:57 <Inst> (except this one doesn't even have a semigroup instance written for it)
19:13:01 <tomsmeding> it's _approximately_ fmap, but not precisely
19:13:10 <tomsmeding> it's fmap fused with this particular append
19:13:52 <monochrom> Ugh then it's poorly written :)
19:13:57 <Inst> ugh why
19:14:00 <Inst> :(
19:14:02 <Inst> oh, monochrom
19:14:06 <tomsmeding> monochrom: would you use (++)?
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19:18:05 <monochrom> Yes.
19:18:19 <tomsmeding> then you have two traversals over each part: one in fmap and one in (++)
19:18:42 <tomsmeding> barring clever deforestation by ghc (does that happen here? I dunno), that's less efficient than one traversal
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19:21:17 <monochrom> I have trouble seeing why that is a priority, given that the prior conversation seems to be on learning applicatives and monads.
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19:21:24 <tomsmeding> fair :D
19:21:43 <tomsmeding> Inst: ^
19:22:21 <tomsmeding> and it's a minor problem anyway, it's a constant factor overhead that won't even reach 2x; the complexity is fine
19:22:55 <Inst> ???
19:22:59 <Inst> relearning applicatives and monads
19:23:14 <Inst> the real goal is more like, actually getting a solid understanding of traversable
19:23:14 <tomsmeding> still, the version with fmap and ++ is much nicer
19:23:16 <Inst> I'm thinking about
19:23:39 <tomsmeding> and much clearer in the actual data flow
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19:23:51 <monochrom> An insight I discovered when writing lectures for them was precisely that not only applicative does more than functor, but also an internal sense of how much: in many cases (at least Maybe and []), <*> can build upon fmap, but also needs to add its own case analysis.
19:23:59 <Inst> traverseB_ :: (Applicative f, Traversable t) :: (a -> Maybe (f b)) -> t a -> f ()
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19:24:36 <Inst> you can get what this is really about, right?
19:24:39 <monochrom> For code optimization, I would still start with map and (++), then recongize that they are both foldr's, then try to use one of those foldr fusion laws.
19:24:53 <elkcl> hi, maybe a bit of an offtopic question (idk of a better place to ask this): is there a more a less practical example of a type constructor in lambda *weak* omega? I tried writing down the pair type constructor as an example (pairs like in untyped lambda calculus, where pair a b = λf. f a b), but looks like I still need П-types for that (because it is unclear what the result type of f would be), which makes it lambda omega, not
19:24:54 <elkcl> lambda *weak* omega
19:25:09 <Inst> lol nested loops? :3
19:25:24 <monochrom> (And I don't commit to whether it is human or computer who do that rewrite.)
19:25:31 <tomsmeding> monochrom: a <*> b == ap a b == do { f <- a; x <- b; return (f x) } == do { f <- a; f <$> b }
19:25:42 <tomsmeding> it can always build on fmap
19:25:58 <monochrom> But that one builds on >>= and join :(
19:26:04 <Inst> okay, thanks for the challenge, i'll rewrite both of them as foldr :)
19:26:13 <tomsmeding> monochrom: unless you inline this particular application of >>= :p
19:26:20 <tomsmeding> which is the same anyway
19:26:23 <monochrom> Yeah I inline that.
19:26:31 <Inst> since i have a foldable implementation up already
19:27:33 <tomsmeding> elkcl: try ##dependent or #agda perhaps
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19:28:21 <monochrom> So I write like "Nothing <*> _ = Nothing; Just f <*> xs = fmap f xs"
19:28:32 <elkcl> tomsmeding: ok thanks
19:28:34 tomsmeding writes the same
19:31:57 Angelz Back.
19:32:04 <Inst> ugh, needs same number of arguments
19:32:47 <mauke> Just f <*> Just x = pure (f x); _ <*> _ = mempty
19:33:08 <Inst> (<*>) a = case a of Nothing -> Nothing; Just f -> fmap f
19:33:09 <Inst> pffft
19:33:26 <Inst> still need to deconstruct the thing
19:33:31 <Inst> can't get it point free
19:34:17 <[exa]> Inst: guards should help a little there
19:34:18 <mauke> @pl \f x -> f >>= (<$> x)
19:34:18 <lambdabot> (. flip (<$>)) . (>>=)
19:34:33 <Inst> (<*>) = fromMaybe (const Nothing)
19:35:16 <Inst> that doesn't work
19:35:41 <mauke> :t fmap . fromMaybe (const Nothing)
19:35:42 <lambdabot> Functor f => Maybe (a1 -> Maybe a2) -> f a1 -> f (Maybe a2)
19:36:08 <tomsmeding> :t \f -> maybe Nothing (Just . f)
19:36:09 <lambdabot> (a1 -> a2) -> Maybe a1 -> Maybe a2
19:37:09 <tomsmeding> @pl \f x -> maybe Nothing (\g -> g <$> x) f
19:37:09 <lambdabot> flip (maybe Nothing . flip (<$>))
19:37:26 <tomsmeding> :t flip (maybe Nothing `fmap` flip fmap)
19:37:27 <lambdabot> Maybe (a1 -> a2) -> Maybe a1 -> Maybe a2
19:38:29 <Inst> a <*> b = foldr (\f -> foldr ((:) . f) [] b) [] a
19:38:32 <Inst> still doesn't work :(
19:39:12 <Inst> should be able to figure out how to do it with foldr, but avoid the (<>)
19:40:09 <tomsmeding> @pl \fs xs -> foldr (\f acc -> foldr (\x acc' -> f x : acc') acc xs) [] fs
19:40:09 <lambdabot> flip (flip foldr [] . flip (flip . foldr . ((:) .)))
19:40:16 <tomsmeding> chef's kiss
19:41:44 <mauke> :t \a b -> foldr (\f z -> foldr ((:) . f) z b) [] a
19:41:45 <lambdabot> (Foldable t1, Foldable t2) => t1 (a1 -> a2) -> t2 a1 -> [a2]
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19:47:24 <Inst> grrrr!
19:48:21 <Inst> and yeah that's better cuz of foldr streaming, no?
19:48:46 <ski> Right x >>= k = k x
19:48:58 <ski> e@(Left _) >>= _ = e
19:53:38 <tomsmeding> ski: that second equation doesn't typecheck
19:53:43 <tomsmeding> unfortunately
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19:54:53 <mauke> e@Left{} >>= _ = unsafeCoerce e
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20:00:52 <haskellbridge> <J​ade> mauke: can you use record syntax for normal ADTs?
20:01:08 <tomsmeding> only {}
20:02:53 <geekosaur> is the as-pattern even needed there? the first pattern should have already forced it
20:03:38 <tomsmeding> I should show that instance to my students lol
20:03:42 <tomsmeding> they be "uh"
20:03:52 <haskellbridge> <J​ade> omsmeding: interesting, thanks
20:04:03 <ski> tomsmeding : the point would be to have `e' get assigned the type `forall b. Either a b', there
20:04:11 <haskellbridge> <J​ade> oops, I'm sorry for cutting off your name
20:04:17 <tomsmeding> ski: yeah but it doesn't :p
20:04:25 <ski> in the current type system
20:04:33 <tomsmeding> indeed
20:04:46 <tomsmeding> Jade: I've seen much weirder misspellings :p
20:04:58 <tomsmeding> and I sympathise because autocomplete is broken across the bridge
20:05:05 <tomsmeding> (presumably; it is on this side)
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20:05:15 <ski> with "polymorphic variants" (lightweight variants, using row types) in OCaml, the type of `e' in the corresponding code would not include the alternative `Right'
20:05:35 <haskellbridge> <J​ade> sadly can't blame this one on technology :P
20:05:36 <haskellbridge> <J​ade> purely my fault
20:06:23 <ski> geekosaur : strictly speaking, no. i just tend to prefer to make the defining equations independent of each other, so that the result (not considering bottoms at least) does not depend on the ordering
20:07:10 <ski> (in some cases, that does make the size of the code explode, though)
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All times are in UTC on 2024-03-26.