Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-03-30 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:01:02 <nij-> Btw, is there anyway one can have a proof showing that the methods of a new Monad really satisfy the Monad rules?
00:01:51 <ncf> you can write an informal proof by chaining together haskell pseudo-equalities, or you can write it in Agda
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00:02:04 <geekosaur> you can, but not in Haskell. you need to switch to Agda or Idris or Coq, etc.
00:02:46 <geekosaur> with, again, the price that you need to carry the proof around with you all the time
00:03:34 <geekosaur> kinda the computer version of "with great power comes great responsibility"
00:04:03 <ncf> presumably a decent compiler would ensure the laws are erased
00:05:05 <nij-> Once a proof is completed in Agda, can Agda tell if that proof describes the case of the monad I implemented in haskell?
00:05:30 <nij-> I mean, we surely can prove stuff in Agda. But how to link that proof with the actual implementation I have in haskell?
00:05:34 <geekosaur> if you want that, you usually export Haskell code from Agda
00:05:46 <ncf> there are tools like agda2hs
00:06:25 <geekosaur> so for example we did that with XMonad.StackSet which is the heart of the xmonad window manager
00:10:14 <nij-> Amazing
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00:11:04 <geekosaur> (sadly "isn't a UX disaster" is not something a proof checker can test…)
00:12:14 <ncf> that being said i'm not actually aware of any agda library that formalises lawful monads on the "ambient" category of types 😅 most of them focus on either general monads in category theory or unlawful monads for (meta)programming
00:12:37 <ncf> i guess you could instantiate the former with the category of sets
00:13:39 <ncf> ah jesper's post on agda2hs describes precisely the lawful monad use case https://jesper.sikanda.be/posts/agda2hs.html
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01:53:25 <ski> geekosaur : "which would be a loop if it were an actual superclass" -- whyfore ?
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01:54:11 <ski> "the only thing you can do with a polymorphic value is pass (a pointer to) it around unmodified, or ignore it" -- no. `maybeToList :: forall a. Maybe a -> [a]' is a polymorphic value (and `maybeToList @Bool' is not), but `x' in `maybeToList (Just x) = [x]' is *not* polymorphic. it has the abstract/hidden/forgotten/opaque/skolem type `a', being a type variable in the type of `maybeToList'
01:55:07 <geekosaur> I was cutting corners all over the place, yes
01:55:32 <geekosaur> not sure introducing skolems to someone who's weak on the basics is a real good idea
01:55:35 <ski> (`f' in the rank-2 `foo :: (forall a. [a] -> [a]) -> Int; foo f = f (reverse (f [2,3,5,7])' *is* polymorphic, though)
01:56:15 <ski> not sure about how to introduce it either .. but it'd definitely not polymorphic
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11:20:43 <jtza8> Hi all, I'm looking to use Haskell in an in-house comercial context, and I was wondering what my desktop UI options are?
11:21:08 <jtza8> I've been looking at wxHaskell, but it seems to not be up to date.
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11:22:45 <jtza8> Does anyone here know why? I could put in some work to fix things, it would probably be cheaper than to get a license for Qt.
11:23:42 <jtza8> (The target machines will be running Windows.)
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12:05:51 <[exa]> jtza8: the GTK support is actually pretty good, and IMO portable easily
12:06:28 <[exa]> I only did small apps in that, but the demos in the repo look quite solid
12:07:43 <[exa]> (also probably depends a lot on what the app would be supposed do)
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12:10:04 <jtza8> Thanks [exa]. I suspect I might get away with using GTK, I'm just a bit worried about the license not working out in the long term.
12:12:34 <[exa]> gtk is iirc lesser GPL right?
12:13:46 <[exa]> (that should work even for commercial pruposes. like, it's gonna cost you a bit of supporting paperwork and a license notice somewhere, but no need to GPL your source or anything like that)
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12:15:06 <yushyin> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/blob/main/COPYING (correct, it's lgpl2.1+)
12:15:52 <[exa]> yay
12:16:58 <yushyin> (or 2.0 but whatever :D)
12:17:50 <[exa]> btw the other sensible way would be the browsery one (Elm or Miso or FRP or so) but these were kinda disappointing for me for various minor reasons
12:20:54 <jtza8> I've looked into those, you're right, they're a bit disappointing. I'm looking into threepenny, but I'd be a lot happier if I don't need to lug a brower around (Electron).
12:22:28 <[exa]> btw is the app more like officey one or very interactive graphical one?
12:22:41 <jtza8> More officey.
12:22:59 <[exa]> ah ok.. in the other case you might consider looking at some of the ImGui libs
12:24:26 <[exa]> for officey just go gtk, it's stable, there are several yuge software packages that will drag it to stability and portability, and on windows it IMO renders much better and "native" than qt
12:25:17 <jtza8> I agree, and it seems like my licensing concerns were unfounded.
12:26:06 <jtza8> Thanks again, you've given me a few things to think through.
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12:28:17 <[exa]> yw :) good luck there
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14:05:06 <dmj`> [exa]: just curious what did you find disappointing
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All times are in UTC on 2024-03-30.