Logs on 2024-04-03 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 02:07:24 | <ftweedal> | Hello! Who has admin access on the mail.haskell.org mailman instance? |
| 02:09:14 | <geekosaur> | ask in #haskell-infrastructure I think |
| 02:09:29 | <ftweedal> | Thank you, will do. |
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| 02:29:20 | Axman6 | wonders if ftweedal is a strange way to spell frase |
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| 03:05:42 | <ftweedal> | Axman6: it me. I'm connected from not my usual workstation. |
| 03:06:55 | <Axman6> | My OSINT skills never cease to amaze even myself |
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| 07:27:52 | Inst_ | is now known as Inst |
| 07:28:02 | <Inst> | Yup, I'm a pathetic sadsack |
| 07:28:23 | <Inst> | now trying to talk NickSeagull of NotHaskell fame into seeing whether or not he'd be interested in working on a Haskell-based front-end framework |
| 07:30:58 | <Inst> | Oh, Nick looks like he back-burnered NH |
| 07:31:25 | <Inst> | Hopefully he'll be positive on a front-end project, and we'll be able to post on Discourse with "Updates from the Lunatic Fringe" |
| 07:31:36 | <Inst> | :D |
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| 13:56:27 | <shapr> | @quote |
| 13:56:27 | <lambdabot> | neelk says: So constructively we know this style can be used to meet hard performance deadlines in domains where the penalty for failure is literally radioactive flaming death. |
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| 14:04:16 | <danse-nr3> | just be careful with partial functions |
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| 14:16:16 | <kuribas> | What's the second best language (after haskell)? |
| 14:16:26 | <janus> | english |
| 14:16:36 | <janus> | because the report is written in it |
| 14:22:00 | <mauke> | perl |
| 14:23:37 | <ski> | @quote mangler |
| 14:23:37 | <lambdabot> | Pseudonym says: All hail the Evil Mangler! |
| 14:23:43 | <shapr> | kuribas: rust in one direction, agda in another direction? |
| 14:23:55 | <shapr> | kuribas: I'd say it depends on your constraints and direction |
| 14:24:05 | <EvanR> | gotta stay up to date on programming languages. Checking wikipedia's list sorted by decade. 2020s. C++20 (???), Microsoft Power Fx, Carbon, Mojo (???), Fortran 2023 (???), gleam |
| 14:24:16 | <EvanR> | the future looks bright |
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| 14:25:16 | <int-e> | they killed the evil mangler :-( |
| 14:28:40 | <kuribas> | shapr: idris rather than agda, unless you just want proofs? |
| 14:30:38 | <int-e> | @quote joy |
| 14:30:38 | <lambdabot> | MyCatVerbs says: ?src i_enjoy_being_insulted_please_bitch_at_me_lambdabot_pretty_pretty_please |
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| 14:31:10 | <kuribas> | I wonder if fortran is really so bad. Would you rather spend time gaming clever python dataframe solutions, rather than writing a stupid loop that can be optimized by the compiler? |
| 14:32:55 | <EvanR> | I heard agda can also produce runnable programs |
| 14:33:54 | <int-e> | the dark side of the Curry-Howard isomorphism |
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| 14:38:04 | <mauke> | I hear fortran can do recursive functions now |
| 14:39:07 | <int-e> | and dynamic allocation |
| 14:39:33 | <int-e> | it's witchcraft |
| 14:42:20 | <shapr> | fortran is good for nested data parallelism |
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| 14:47:28 | <kuribas> | mauke: lol |
| 14:48:27 | <kuribas> | idris is cool, but nearly unusable for anything practical, due to a total lack of libraries. |
| 14:51:30 | <Inst> | i was told once upon a time we don't have type lambdas, right? |
| 14:52:48 | <Inst> | if I wanted to implement the type-level equivalent of flip (as a function), ... oh, I'm an idiot :( |
| 14:53:14 | <Inst> | type Flip a b c = a c b |
| 14:56:53 | <kuribas> | to be useful, that should be a Newtype |
| 14:57:21 | <kuribas> | type is just a synonym. |
| 14:57:32 | <Inst> | I know |
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| 14:58:00 | <ncf> | more importantly, type synonyms have to be fully applied... but if you can fully apply Flip, you might as well just flip the arguments |
| 14:58:00 | <Inst> | oh cool, you can use type operators |
| 14:58:13 | <Inst> | ncf: it's parens phobia |
| 14:58:32 | <Inst> | iirc there's a way to get instance declarations to accept newtypes, right? |
| 14:58:41 | <Inst> | erm, not newtypes, type synonyms, oh wait |
| 14:58:42 | <Inst> | ffff |
| 14:59:01 | <Inst> | I was hoping to implement a junk instance for Either wherein Left is value and Right is error |
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| 15:00:36 | <Inst> | okay, I can't do this to get me a flipped Maybe, but iirc instancing newtypes can do so, as kuribas said :( |
| 15:00:40 | <Inst> | flipped Either |
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| 15:08:32 | <geekosaur> | re instances on type synonyms, they're rejected normally to make it clear that they wouldn't be new instances |
| 15:08:58 | <geekosaur> | `instance Foo String` and `instance Foo [Char]` can't be distinct, for example |
| 15:09:03 | <Inst> | i know :( |
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| 15:09:53 | <Inst> | also ncf was right about fully applied, I don't think I can get away with Flip Either () $ IO () |
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| 15:09:56 | <Inst> | which was what i was looking for |
| 15:10:14 | <shapr> | that's the best name for a Haskell Recruiting Company, Fully Applied :-D |
| 15:10:42 | <Inst> | IO () `Either` () works though |
| 15:11:35 | <Inst> | also have you folks seen this? |
| 15:11:46 | <Inst> | https://www.vacationlabs.com/about-us/ |
| 15:12:00 | <Inst> | https://www.vacationlabs.com/we-are-hiring/software-engineer-haskell/ |
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| 15:13:38 | <Inst> | https://www.haskelltutorials.com |
| 15:13:42 | <Inst> | the founder wrote this |
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| 15:16:03 | <mauke> | "Something that doesn’t require us to maintain an 80%+ test coverage." o_O |
| 15:16:39 | <ncf> | this is cringe |
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| 15:18:59 | <danse-nr3> | thanks anyways, haskell jobs are always a rarity |
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| 15:19:24 | <Inst> | oh no, i mean, it's an Indian op based in Goa |
| 15:19:34 | <Inst> | I'd assume everyone they hire is paid less than 20k USD / EUR a year |
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| 15:24:02 | <Inst> | more that it'd be interesting to watch what they're doing |
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| 15:30:29 | <danse-nr3> | i see well i could pursue my passion for haskell by moving to india in order to make that sustainable then XD |
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| 16:23:38 | <Inst> | hmmm, also, regarding my previous Widget problem, can this be solved via DataFamilies? |
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| 16:24:27 | <Inst> | i.e, use the data family as a constraint? |
| 16:25:09 | <Inst> | I get the feeling that data families as constraint carriers are probably out of date, though |
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| 17:50:04 | <yin> | it's not uncommon to hear that learning haskell is great beacuse it teaches you a useful way to think. how much of it is just the functional, lambda-calulusy way which you can learn from lisp and how much is haskell specific? |
| 17:50:46 | <yin> | s/calulusy/calculusy |
| 17:51:35 | <geekosaur> | I'd claim that most of it is neither. it's teaching you to be disciplined in programming, so you make fewer errors — which is especially important when programming in languages which won't catch them |
| 17:52:28 | <geekosaur> | (lisp being one such language, being untyped) |
| 17:53:44 | <mauke> | if lisp is lambda-calculusy, then so are javascript and perl |
| 17:54:13 | <glguy> | I don't remember my common lisp code being particularly functional. It's kind of a kitchen sink approach. If you were trying to learn functional programming common lisp probably doesn't help, but if you are already good at functional programming you could focus on functional programming in CL |
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| 17:57:31 | <c_wraith> | Haskell is really good at forcing you to become clear what information it is you're passing around, how it's represented, when you care, and when you don't. |
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| 17:58:12 | <EvanR> | parts of scheme can hit at parts of haskell, but many things in scheme are unhaskelly, and not having types misses much of the point of haskell |
| 17:58:57 | <EvanR> | laziness being not default behavior does have noticeable impact on your mentality |
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| 17:59:38 | <EvanR> | it might be where a lot of "gotchas" in haskell come from, pretending stuff works like eager languages for the most part |
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| 17:59:57 | <EvanR> | or hoping that the optimizer makes it so |
| 18:00:03 | <mauke> | turns out I can't "read" Haskell code with {-# LANGUAGE Strict #-} |
| 18:00:14 | <mauke> | it just breaks my mental model |
| 18:01:17 | <c_wraith> | My favorite part of -XStrict is that it wasn't enough to actually work, and they had to go on and make it possible to declare your own unlifted data types. |
| 18:01:31 | <c_wraith> | While I like that as a feature, the provenance amuses me. |
| 18:01:57 | <ski> | mauke : pretend it's ML ? |
| 18:02:24 | <c_wraith> | I think there needs to be more focus on operational semantics in instructional material. And more care in the compiler for not just breaking them arbitrarily. |
| 18:02:26 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
| 18:02:30 | <mauke> | I forgot all of ocaml about one month into haskell |
| 18:03:13 | <mauke> | and I'm too used to certain identities and laws |
| 18:03:32 | <mauke> | like (\x -> f (g x)) being equivalent to (f . g), which does not hold under Strict |
| 18:03:53 | <haskellbridge> | <Isaac> Do you have an opinion on Carp (an attempt at typed lisp)? |
| 18:08:12 | <ski> | well, they've different space properties, under by-need, as well |
| 18:09:29 | <Inst> | how immutable is idiomatic lisp, anyways? |
| 18:09:43 | <Inst> | I'm told Common Lisp isn't very functional and it's usually just imperative programming with macros |
| 18:10:50 | <ski> | Scheme tends to use less mutation |
| 18:12:11 | <Inst> | Haskell can mutate, but it's idiomatic, and I've never seen or heard of someone using ST type for anything that wasn't a parlour trick |
| 18:12:21 | <Inst> | *it's rarely idiomatic |
| 18:13:07 | <geekosaur> | I've seen some uses, but it's not a common idiom indeed |
| 18:14:50 | <c_wraith> | ST is great for working with array algorithms. I don't think I use it outside of that. I realize there are graph algorithms it can help a lot with, but I never end up using those. |
| 18:15:25 | <yin> | what about typed racket? i only have experience with chez scheme |
| 18:15:29 | <ski> | i implemented logic variables with it |
| 18:15:51 | <c_wraith> | like, how often do you use union-find trees and need the path-compression portion of the algorithm? |
| 18:17:43 | <Inst> | iirc vector sort is implemented via ST, no? |
| 18:17:51 | <c_wraith> | that's an array algorithm for sure. |
| 18:18:03 | <Inst> | but to the end user it's invisible |
| 18:18:14 | <c_wraith> | the whole point of ST is that it's invisible to the end user. |
| 18:21:40 | <EvanR> | an onionskin inception nested levels of things invisible to the end user until you get a proper application! |
| 18:25:37 | <yin> | yeah, haskell is great because you can just recursively hoogle your functions until you understand them but that's a dream that quickly turns into a nightmare |
| 18:26:22 | <yin> | and i feel that you inevitably hit what i call the wall of lies |
| 18:27:07 | <EvanR> | that's dramatic |
| 18:27:26 | <EvanR> | can we call it a wall of simple misunderstandings |
| 18:28:46 | <yin> | the documentation throws little whites lies at you here and there. eventually it leads to you having to readjust your mental model from the bottom up |
| 18:28:57 | <EvanR> | example? |
| 18:29:12 | <yin> | great question. let me think |
| 18:29:21 | <yin> | think back at darker times |
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| 18:34:31 | <yin> | i think that for me, one of the first offenders was ($) |
| 18:34:46 | <yin> | there's some compiler magic around it |
| 18:36:18 | <glguy> | $ used to be more magic than it is now |
| 18:37:04 | <yin> | yes, and the source seems to be way more informative than what i remember too |
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| 18:40:28 | <EvanR> | Inst, haskell can mutate. H98 -> Haskell2010 -> GHC2024 |
| 18:41:07 | <EvanR> | -> ??? |
| 18:41:16 | <Rembane> | -> Profit! |
| 18:42:42 | <c_wraith> | does $ still have magic? I thought that it was theoretically possible to get rid of it all now that quick look impredicative types work. |
| 18:42:54 | <c_wraith> | (but maybe not possible in practice) |
| 18:43:05 | <EvanR> | press B to stop evolution |
| 18:43:36 | <geekosaur> | $ implicitly always has ImpredicativeTypes turned on, iirc |
| 18:45:11 | <c_wraith> | I guess that's still minor magic. |
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| 18:45:36 | <c_wraith> | Though way less than the "just erase it from the AST" hack that it used to have. |
| 18:48:10 | <Inst> | EvanR: what does that function do from its type signature? |
| 18:48:40 | <Inst> | also, is the reason I don't get type-level magic because I don't write my own typeclasses or instances aggressively enough? |
| 18:48:50 | <Inst> | like, if you're not mucking around with typeclasses, you don't need typelevel? |
| 18:49:22 | <c_wraith> | It's funny. I got so used to the Rank-2 workaround for impredicative types not working, I don't even think to use them now that they're supported better. |
| 18:49:25 | <EvanR> | it's the other way around? if you are doing type level programming aggressively enough, you need type classes? |
| 18:49:45 | <Inst> | contrapositive? |
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| 18:50:03 | <ski> | converse |
| 18:50:14 | <c_wraith> | Inst: the most interesting uses of advanced type system features don't rely on classes at all. |
| 18:50:19 | <Inst> | ~p -> ~q implies Q -> p |
| 18:50:37 | <Inst> | like what? |
| 18:50:38 | <EvanR> | not's not there |
| 18:51:05 | <c_wraith> | Inst: suppose you want to run a work queue in another thread, and you want it to be able to run actions of any type and then send the response back to the caller at the correct type. |
| 18:51:57 | <c_wraith> | Inst: like... runInQueue :: Queue -> IO a -> IO a |
| 18:52:12 | <Inst> | I'm listening |
| 18:52:27 | <c_wraith> | Inst: how do you package up those IO actions to ship them off to the queue thread, and then get the results back at the correct type? |
| 18:53:15 | <c_wraith> | What type does the queue thread see for the action? |
| 18:53:18 | <ncf> | reject excluded middle |
| 18:53:28 | <ski> | @djinn (Not p -> Not q) -> NotNot (q -> p) |
| 18:53:28 | <lambdabot> | f a b = void (b (\ c -> void (a (\ d -> b (\ _ -> d)) c))) |
| 18:53:43 | <ski> | @djinn NotNot (Either p (Not p)) |
| 18:53:43 | <lambdabot> | f a = void (a (Right (\ b -> a (Left b)))) |
| 18:54:16 | <Inst> | something with rankN types? |
| 18:54:39 | <c_wraith> | "something" is correct, but.. missing a lot of details. |
| 18:56:06 | <c_wraith> | Inst: that question is a simplified version of what's going on in https://github.com/chowells79/shuttle/blob/main/src/Control/Shuttle.hs . (Still a draft, I never got around to finishing it. But it works, is type-safe, and needs some more advanced features.) |
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| 19:01:07 | <Inst> | reading it right now |
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| 19:03:41 | <Inst> | btw thanks ski, i guess, you spent a lot of effort, but you helped me understand the usage of forall yesterday / last night |
| 19:05:54 | <ski> | no problem |
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| 19:08:29 | <Inst> | https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/impredicative_types.html |
| 19:08:36 | <Inst> | ugh, i need to go learn more html / css |
| 19:09:01 | <Inst> | wanting to go back to prolog to understand unification and how that applies to Haskell's type system is an unbearably attractive diversion |
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| 19:30:19 | <monochrom> | In fact, implement the Hindley-Milner-Robinson type inference algorithm in prolog. >:) |
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| 19:30:55 | <monochrom> | Actually I should do that too. :) |
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| 19:57:38 | <dmj`> | monochrom: now add typeclasses :) |
| 19:57:55 | <monochrom> | :( :) |
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| 20:09:32 | <shapr> | Is there a plugin for cabal that relaxes upper bounds to see if a project still builds and passes tests? |
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| 20:15:12 | <ncf> | --allow-newer ? |
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| 20:15:36 | <shapr> | ncf: that does the check, but I want something that also sets new upper bounds |
| 20:15:41 | <shapr> | computer! |
| 20:15:43 | <shapr> | automation! |
| 20:15:44 | <shapr> | adventure! |
| 20:15:47 | <shapr> | excitement! |
| 20:15:50 | shapr | drinks more caffeine |
| 20:15:55 | <dmj`> | @package bumper |
| 20:15:55 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bumper |
| 20:16:03 | <shapr> | dmj`: oooh! |
| 20:16:19 | <shapr> | I'll try that, thanks! |
| 20:16:39 | <shapr> | clearly we need more pinball themed tools |
| 20:17:04 | <dmj`> | shapr: np, not sure if its bitrotted |
| 20:17:35 | <dmj`> | monochrom: the french approach w/ typeclasses, a simple example would be nice |
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| 20:17:54 | <EvanR> | french typeclasses? |
| 20:19:10 | <dmj`> | yes |
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| 20:20:33 | <dmj`> | I'm just curious if its possible to apply substitutions /only/ in the solver, and not in the constraint generation |
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| 20:23:08 | <cheater> | do i need to do something special to do let x :: Foo = "bar" ? |
| 20:23:16 | <cheater> | both equals and type at the same time |
| 20:23:39 | <cheater> | i don't remember that being a thing |
| 20:23:45 | <cheater> | but i'm seeing it in some code here (private) |
| 20:26:30 | <geekosaur> | it's part of `ScopedTypeVariables` for some reason, since it's a signature in a pattern |
| 20:26:39 | <geekosaur> | years ago it was its own extension |
| 20:26:43 | <ski> | `PatternSignatures' or `ScopedTypeVariables' |
| 20:27:38 | <ski> | > let x :: () = () in x |
| 20:27:40 | <lambdabot> | () |
| 20:27:47 | <ski> | > let f () :: () = () in f () -- sadly, this doesn't work |
| 20:27:48 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:5: error: Parse error in pattern: f |
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| 21:00:52 | <cheater> | ty |
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| 21:12:47 | <janus> | in the context of ghc2021/2024 i have heard that ScopedTypeVariables is still in flux somehow |
| 21:13:05 | <janus> | does anyone have more context on this? i'd like to read |
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| 21:30:46 | <c_wraith> | janus: it's kind of a grab bag of features, and one of the things it allows is being moved to a new extension, -XTypeAbstractions |
| 21:30:56 | <c_wraith> | https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/type_abstractions.html |
| 21:31:24 | <c_wraith> | I imagine that is making some people uncomfortable about having it in the list of blessed safe extensions |
| 21:31:44 | <c_wraith> | But I haven't seen examples of that. |
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| 21:33:03 | <c_wraith> | I believe https://github.com/ghc-proposals/ghc-proposals/blob/master/proposals/0448-type-variable-scoping.rst is the high-level proposal related to the changes |
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| 21:59:35 | <janus> | thanks |
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| 22:50:18 | <yin> | ski: in which situation would that be useful? |
| 22:50:47 | <yin> | > let f () = () :: () in f () -- this is fine |
| 22:50:49 | <lambdabot> | () |
| 22:54:28 | <geekosaur> | > let (f :: () -> ()) () = () in f () |
| 22:54:29 | <lambdabot> | <hint>:1:5: error: Parse error in pattern: (f :: () -> ()) |
| 22:54:45 | <geekosaur> | % let (f :: () -> ()) () = () in f () |
| 22:54:45 | <yahb2> | <interactive>:11:5: error: Parse error in pattern: (f :: () -> ()) |
| 22:56:50 | <yin> | i get it now |
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| 22:59:38 | <yin> | but i'm glad that's not valid |
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