Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-04-04 (liberachat/#haskell)

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05:05:00 <cheater> If you want a picture of the future, imagine a parser stamping on a human face— forever
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05:17:22 <monochrom> That would require the human body to never decay, which would be unrealistic.
05:23:54 <EvanR> just make the human body out of protons which don't decay
05:24:02 <EvanR> as far as anyone knows
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05:55:23 <Lycurgus> CT in Context must be pretty good, super effusive reviews
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06:47:58 <cheater> interesting
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08:01:07 <Inst> sigh, looks like Julia is stalled right now
08:01:22 <Inst> I realized I like the language, i.e, decent (predictable) performance in a gradually-typed language
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08:32:35 <Inst> question: is GHCI print behavior good for unicode?
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08:37:25 <Inst> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unicode-show-0.1.1.1/docs/Text-Show-Unicode.html
08:37:28 <Inst> workaround package
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08:39:56 <danse-nr3> huh not sure. Give it a try with some unicode? Would not even know how the interpreter would work differently from printing in any other program
08:40:16 <tomsmeding> % print "おはよう"
08:40:16 <yahb2> "\12362\12399\12424\12358"
08:40:22 <tomsmeding> I think this is what Inst is referring to
08:40:49 <Inst> there's already a package for it
08:40:52 <Inst> you were disconnected at the time
08:40:54 <Inst> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/unicode-show-0.1.1.1/docs/Text-Show-Unicode.html
08:40:59 <danse-nr3> ops sorry
08:41:18 <tomsmeding> inconvenient that it needs to be globally available to be maximally useful
08:42:00 <Inst> i'm surprised no one's working on a new Haskell interpreter, GHCI is ooold
08:42:32 <tomsmeding> seems that ushow is a big hack though
08:42:39 <Inst> compilers are toys, and being feature complete as GHC is tough, whereas a new interpreter with bells and whistles (a la OCaml's utop) is low-hanging fruit
08:42:47 <tomsmeding> it will literally back-replace things that look like unicode escapes in the Show output
08:42:56 <tomsmeding> regardless of whether that was in an actual string or not
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09:20:54 <danse-nr3> "compilers are toys"?
09:22:45 <Inst> microhs, i mean
09:23:07 <Inst> it might get to the stage wherein it's a good replacement for GHC for simple haskell / production, but it's roughly at a toy stage right now, no?
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09:25:14 <haskellbridge> <s​m> more than I toy I'd say
09:26:56 <danse-nr3> i see you say there is an alt compiler at "toy" stage. How is that an argument for alt interpreters being easy to write
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09:30:40 <tomsmeding> I hope you're not advocating for writing a new haskell interpreter _without GHC as a backend_
09:30:46 <tomsmeding> because that's a Project
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09:31:40 <tomsmeding> and if it's about the shell around the actual language implementation: ghci has been getting updates over the years, if you're looking for something specific you can always propose it :p
09:32:26 <tomsmeding> this unicode print thing is not really ghci's problem though because that really stems from the showList implementation of Char
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09:41:47 <Inst> with GHC as a backend, for now
09:41:50 <Inst> maybe swap backends later on
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09:42:18 <Inst> it's just easier to feel ergonomic issues with GHCI if you use other langs repls
09:42:31 <Inst> also, just curious, what's the drawbacks of replacing IO with a typeclass instead?
09:42:51 <kuribas> I am using HLS in emacs, I have this issue a few times, where I get a "no instance for (Eq Runstatus)", with Runstatus defined in another module.
09:43:00 <kuribas> There is clearly an Eq instance.
09:43:30 <kuribas> It compiles just fine with cabal build
09:52:36 <danse-nr3> not sure not using HLS yet, too unstable for my taste
09:53:51 <ski> GHCi is an interactor, as is the OCaml toplevel
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09:58:49 <kuribas> I used to use flycheck, but that also broke in my most recent emacs installation.
09:59:00 <kuribas> It's nice "when it works".
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10:00:20 <danse-nr3> tried emacs `compile`, for a while seemed stable but then failed parsing stack errors
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11:08:35 <tomsmeding> kuribas: does HLS start working again if you restart it?
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12:15:11 <Guest96> how do i connect to haskell on windows
12:15:23 <Guest96> ghcup fails
12:15:34 <Guest96> i installed msys2 manually
12:15:49 <Guest96> now i should type something to get haskell with wget or pacman?
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12:18:54 <jjhoo> no results from 'pacman -Ss ghc' and 'pacman -Ss haskell' (msys)
12:18:56 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/install/#windows_1
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12:19:54 <Hecate> Guest96: ghcup fails for which reason?
12:20:02 <Guest96> no reason
12:20:05 <Guest96> just fails
12:20:28 <Guest96> doesnt even manage to install msys2
12:20:36 <danse-nr3> can you increase verbosity?
12:22:11 <Guest96> no
12:22:20 <Guest96> tried -v but it doesnt recognise it
12:23:31 <Guest96> maerwald: im guessing ghcup isnt an option
12:24:30 <danse-nr3> seems recognized from what i see, but probably does not add anything for your error case. Anyways ghcup is probably the easiest option so maybe check its docs again, open issues on the project, etcetera
12:24:51 <jjhoo> there is no easy to use installer?
12:25:38 <Guest96> no
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12:25:50 <Inst> curious, how cancerous is it
12:25:53 <Guest96> ghcup is only supported option and is broken
12:25:59 <Inst> if you get bored and decide to dump everything into a typeclass?
12:26:01 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> Why
12:26:11 <Inst> class Foo where; foo :: String; foo = "Hello"
12:26:30 <Inst> this apparently requires instance Foo where
12:26:37 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> Disable your antivirus
12:26:40 <Guest96> why?
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12:26:57 <Guest96> ...
12:27:09 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> And blame Microsoft for shipping a broken operating system
12:27:15 <Guest96> does anyone know how to build on linux? maybe that will work in MSYS2
12:27:40 <Guest96> er, if microsoft decide to break your buildchain im guessing thats on you
12:27:43 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> Because it blocks msys2 installation frequently
12:27:57 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> No
12:28:07 <Guest96> ok sure
12:28:15 <probie> Guest96: No, it's Microsoft
12:28:20 <Guest96> its a robust buildchain that didnt break
12:28:38 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> Windows is broken all the time
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12:28:49 <Guest96> i think basically someone decided the powershell command wasnt the status accepted by the future
12:29:04 <Inst> more important question
12:29:09 <Inst> which version of Windows?
12:29:12 <Guest96> 11
12:29:22 <jjhoo> maybe chocolatey is easier
12:29:36 <Guest96> if it still is maintained id be up for that, its how i used to do it
12:29:50 <Guest96> i think it was the way it was distributed for a while also
12:29:59 <haskellbridge> <p​lacidex> Is wsl an option for you?
12:30:18 <Guest96> i think someone tried to use a kind of batch process approach and thought the powershel option for windows was a good way to do that
12:30:29 <Guest96> wsl is an option
12:30:37 <Guest96> but id rather not have to mirror as its slightly slower
12:31:05 <Guest96> id rather have a native build and the unix version eg for deploying to virtual servers where you want that to go from unix to unix
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12:31:33 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> Batch process approach?
12:31:45 <Guest96> ill see if i can find the old chocolatey build instructions, nice suggestion
12:32:02 <Guest96> like a makefile but with a .bat or .sh, very hacky
12:32:12 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> Chocolatey relies on powershell scripts too xD
12:32:14 <Guest96> like, cos it has to install several components
12:32:23 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> But whatever
12:32:29 <Guest96> its not bad to just give the user the wget instructions...
12:33:03 <int-e> . o O ( wget https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/9.8.2/ghc-9.8.2-x86_64-unknown-mingw32.tar.xz figure out the rest yourself )
12:33:31 <Guest96> ooh, that works!
12:33:33 <int-e> (I have *no* clue whether those bindists work under Windows. I can glean from the file name that they're based on mingw32)
12:33:54 <Guest96> seems to work if you just type that into msys2
12:33:57 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> Read the chocolatey code
12:34:03 <int-e> (And why is it 32 when it's a 64 bit build.)
12:34:33 <int-e> Guest96: sure but now you have a file to unpack and figure out how to make work. I know nothing about that.
12:34:34 <Guest96> but then says ghc not found#
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12:35:09 <int-e> there won't be a single wget command that installs ghc for you
12:35:16 <int-e> ghc is like a million of files
12:35:30 <Guest96> there used to be a binary installer for windows!!!!
12:36:15 <Guest96> im trying https://hub.zhox.com/posts/introducing-haskell-dev/
12:36:19 <Guest96> for the chocolatey
12:36:59 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> Those still runs powershell scripts xD
12:38:16 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> Well, I can make a binary msi installer if you pay me I guess
12:39:11 <Guest96> there are funds at the haskell foundation, but i guess there was a comittee descision to opt for the powershell approach for whatever reason. id argue this drastically affects accessability and maintainability of the buildchain
12:39:48 <Guest96> im glad there is the cocolatey version to fall back on
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12:40:30 <Guest96> i think the descision reflects an inability to draw from input which might help make less esoteric descisions
12:40:45 <int-e> I don't think arguing against powershell is going anywhere... it's supposed to enable scripting for Windows. MS itself is providing it for that purpose.
12:40:51 <Guest96> powershell might be normal in some circles but its the first time iv ever had to use it
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12:41:48 <int-e> And scripting is not a hack, it's a normal way to automate tedious tasks that would otherwise require a lengthy string of individual shell commands.
12:41:52 <Guest96> and it doesnt seem to offer a maintainable component to a buildchain
12:42:24 <Guest96> i guess chocolatey was from before microsoft offers this vsn
12:42:35 <Guest96> and like, good to fall back on, since the MS version broke
12:43:00 <Guest96> but then, maybe an argument to have perhaps a more resilient alternative to the MS scripting even if thats the solution they present
12:43:11 <Guest96> which is guess is what chocolatey is
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12:43:58 <int-e> . o O ( If you don't want to use PowerShell maybe you should try a system with a different default shell like Linux or perhaps MacOS. )
12:44:03 <Guest96> but like, if the MS version is broken, and still hasnt been taken off the haskell launch page, because presumably the chocolatey version is considered outmoded or clunky
12:44:17 <int-e> presumably it works for some people
12:44:24 <Guest96> seems like its a really cosmetic thing and rightly so, this is what should be one click from 0 haskell to having haskell
12:44:27 <int-e> Or worked until very recently.
12:44:42 <Inst> Guest96; can you install WSL?
12:44:52 <Inst> A lot of people just use Haskell in WSL on Windows
12:44:54 <Guest96> i have managed to use the GHCup version only one time successfully in the entire time
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12:45:15 <Guest96> Inst: yes, but there was always a working windows build process
12:45:21 <Guest96> from the launch page
12:45:58 <Inst> stuff breaks, forgive maerwald from being blunt, but he's overworked and busy
12:46:02 <Inst> *for being blunt
12:46:17 <Guest96> yeah sure, id hate to have to maintain that
12:46:23 <Guest96> wasnt he complaining about not getting paid!?
12:46:30 <Inst> ghcup is handled by maerwald, and was adopted by Haskell.org after the fact
12:46:35 <Guest96> where is this damn haskell foundation and its ever elusive stipend
12:46:43 <Inst> iirc cheekrat I think is on the project as well?
12:47:11 <Inst> HF, from what I'm told, is way more conservative than it should be, but it exists and there's no real alternative other than doing it yourself
12:47:50 <Inst> but, Guest96: can you get WSL working?
12:47:59 <Inst> Your best workaround is probably WSL + GHCup on WSL
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12:49:46 <probie> Guest96: Why would you just expect the Haskell foundation to spend their money on Windows support? There's not really much of a return
12:50:03 <Guest96> lol
12:50:12 <Guest96> idk why people play devils advokate like that
12:50:19 <Guest96> i consider it a personal affront
12:50:32 <Guest96> (obvs as the major OS...)
12:50:53 <probie> Also, if you're happy with GHC 9.2.5 and randomly installing the codeworld library, you can always try the script my old university uses https://comp.anu.edu.au/courses/comp1100/resources/install/windows/
12:51:51 <Guest96> First checking for Msys2...
12:51:52 <Guest96> ...Msys2 doesn't exist, installing into C:\\ghcup\msys64
12:51:52 <Guest96> Starting installation in 5 seconds, this may take a while...
12:51:53 <Guest96> Downloading Msys2 archive 20221216...
12:51:53 <Guest96> curl.exe : % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current
12:51:54 <Guest96> At line:182 char:5
12:51:54 <Guest96> + & $cmd @Passthrough
12:51:55 <Guest96> + ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
12:51:55 <Guest96>     + CategoryInfo : NotSpecified: ( % Total % ... Time Current:String) [], RemoteException
12:51:56 <Guest96>     + FullyQualifiedErrorId : NativeCommandError
12:51:56 <Guest96> PS C:\>
12:52:08 <Guest96> powershell is not ok
12:53:53 <Guest96> cant get wsl to work either! nightmare off for a system reboot
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12:54:43 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> I don't know what you are thinking, but chocolatey uses powershell too
12:54:50 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> But I'm repeating myself
12:55:00 <probie> maerwald: They've quit
12:55:11 <Inst> probie: not really watching this, but Guest96 has valid concerns
12:55:19 <Inst> Haskell on Windows is just not that much of a priority and we should be happy it works
12:55:27 <Inst> OCaml iirc is only recently getting Windows support
12:55:32 <Inst> Clojure IIRC has experimental windows support
12:55:52 <haskellbridge> <m​aerwald> Pretty sure it's just their antivirus
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12:56:13 <Inst> <Inst> Haskell on Windows is just not that much of a priority and we should be happy it works
12:56:14 <Inst> <Inst> OCaml iirc is only recently getting Windows support
12:56:14 <Inst> <Inst> Clojure IIRC has experimental windows support
12:56:16 <Inst> @guest96
12:56:16 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
12:56:55 <Inst> Guest96: are you a superuser / administrator on your machine?
12:57:02 <Guest96> haskell has always had windows support
12:57:17 <Guest96> i have never used any other OS for haskell unless its some tricky crosscompliation
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12:58:24 <mauke> <Guest96> (obvs as the major OS...) <- lol, meanwhile I'm considering whether to even test my stuff on windows
12:58:40 <Guest96> exactly
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12:58:52 <Guest96> and this kind of sillyness meaning we end up with PS solutions
12:58:55 <Inst> I mean with niche langs based on FOSS Windows tends to be expensive
12:59:00 <Inst> took Haskell a long time to get Brick working
12:59:21 <mauke> oh, with me it's all cmd and batch files
12:59:22 <Guest96> its offensiiive, its like a bunch of arch users keeping a language from going mainstream
12:59:31 <Guest96> i know its not that bad!
12:59:36 <Guest96> but like, you get the idea
12:59:42 <mauke> what are you even talking about
13:00:00 <Inst> me or Guest96?
13:00:07 <mauke> it's not like windows support comes naturally and there are some evil gatekeepers that break things specifically on windows
13:00:10 <Guest96> windows accessability is a major priority from the perspective of those teaching haskell to people that use windows as their primary OS
13:00:22 <Inst> Guest96: so, is that your background?
13:00:41 <mauke> it's that windows is an awful system and supporting it is needlessly painful and expensive
13:00:46 <mauke> and no one's paying for it
13:00:56 <Inst> Windows is acceptably bad
13:01:03 <int-e> WSL is a serious answer.
13:01:10 <probie> The problem with most of the FOSS stuff is that it assumes a sane C toolchain, which isn't a given on Windows
13:01:12 <Guest96> mauke: i just mean that as far as i can tell, this haskell comitee or whatever, is slightly more tech capable than your average bear, and they kind of pass this onto the user sometimes, which might affect the uptake and accessability of the language, which for the people at its frontend, is quite inconvinient
13:01:13 <Inst> but yeah, it's painful and expensive to support, especially since Windows is dying
13:01:34 <Inst> Wintel is getting crushed by MacOS, slowly but surely, in the United States
13:01:42 <Guest96> wsl is a broken solution
13:01:47 <int-e> The existence of WSL also means that there's less pressure to make stuff work natively under Windows.
13:01:48 <Guest96> it forces into unix
13:01:52 <Guest96> never had that
13:01:58 <Inst> Guest96: I think the important thing to realize is that Haskell is an academic project
13:02:00 <Inst> and no one is in charge
13:02:05 <Guest96> alsways had the windows style line endings. its a breaking change
13:02:20 <mauke> Guest96: it's not the "haskell committee", it's you
13:02:22 <mauke> or people like you
13:02:34 <probie> Unless you're writing a desktop app, who even targets Windows these days?
13:02:39 <Guest96> int-e: but that was pressure to do a good thing, i cant beleive im having to make the argument, it seems absurd
13:02:46 <Inst> But he has valid concerns, if the Haskell community were better provisioned, I'm sure keeping Windows viable would be a priority
13:03:03 <int-e> Guest96: It wasn't, it took away maintenance time that could be spent on useful features instead.
13:03:17 <Inst> As you can see, Haskell community is underresourced when it comes to labor
13:03:17 <Guest96> maybe pay people
13:03:23 <int-e> Guest96: (Yes, I can be as opinionated about this as you are.)
13:03:34 <Inst> Most of the corporate sponsors of Haskell Foundation wouldn't pay for Windows support
13:03:51 <Inst> they're using it on servers, Monomer users are relatively rare
13:04:03 <Guest96> seriously, every time iv ever heard about the comitees stipend it has been about how it cant afford this or that. this was the main barrier to addoption on android!
13:04:18 <Guest96> the obsidian systems stuff is a private company filling a niche that results
13:04:26 <Inst> I'm not sure if Haskell wants to be adopted :(
13:04:37 <int-e> avoid success at all cost
13:04:39 <Guest96> it actually becomes viable for the private sector to pick up where the haskell comitee cant afford to do stuff
13:04:46 <Inst> Obsidian Systems' Reflex, last I heard, was working only on 5-6 year old GHCs
13:05:09 <Inst> And was mated to a Nix flake, and IIRC Windows doesn't support Nix at all
13:05:20 <Guest96> no hav to go via wsl for that
13:05:26 <Guest96> require a nix-copy-closure
13:05:33 <Guest96> this places constraints on the environemnt
13:05:33 <int-e> Haskell is still an odd mix of research vehicle and production language.
13:05:43 <probie> Inst: I don't think that was due to android, but rather was due to GHC's new JS backend still not quite being at parity with the old GHCJS
13:05:48 <Guest96> so you cant launch to unix from windows without going via wsl
13:05:49 <int-e> And that's pretty nice, honestly.
13:05:53 <int-e> YMMV
13:06:02 <Guest96> i have always used it for production
13:06:05 <Guest96> i do HPC
13:06:10 <Inst> Ah.
13:06:11 <Guest96> i have an AGI
13:06:20 <Inst> AGI seems a bit implausible.
13:06:27 <Guest96> for numbers out the box its unparalleled by any other language
13:06:37 <Guest96> no overhead in terms of syntax or flops
13:06:49 <int-e> . o O ( almost generic idiot )
13:06:50 <Guest96> agi is very easy to acheive in practice
13:07:06 <Guest96> its some automorphic curves that exhibit a certain phase portrait
13:07:11 <mauke> is it timecube time?
13:07:15 <Inst> i... dgi
13:07:22 <Guest96> nvm
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13:07:38 <Guest96> haskell is cast asside
13:07:42 <Guest96> wrongly
13:07:42 <Inst> Anyways, glad we're still getting trolled.
13:07:45 <Guest96> its just missold
13:07:47 <probie> mauke: I'd completely forgotten about the timecube
13:07:55 <Inst> Means that Haskell still exists and is prominent enough to get trolled.
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13:08:09 <Guest96> well it shows a level of maturity of the language and its comunity
13:08:27 <danse-nr3> not trolling i think, just some rare dev passionate about working on win ...
13:08:28 <Guest96> who clearly dont like windows...
13:08:30 <Inst> Guest96: It'd be awesome if we could help, and maerwald's opinion is that it's an issue with your antivirus / firewall.
13:08:34 <int-e> Or maybe Windows is cast aside by open source developers, and deservedly so.
13:08:53 <Guest96> im in academia
13:08:57 <int-e> Haskll and GHC are in fairly good spots.
13:08:57 <Inst> But Windows isn't a priority in the community, it'd be a red-headed stepchild except that there are people working on improving Windows compatibility
13:09:00 <Guest96> i want my code to be legible by students
13:09:08 <Guest96> i dont want them grappling with crazy build processes
13:09:19 <Inst> Guest96: so do you have it working or not?
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13:09:37 <Guest96> chocolatey install is hung
13:09:41 <int-e> I rather suspect that ghcup just works in WSL.
13:09:46 <int-e> Not that I'd know.
13:09:51 <danse-nr3> oh gosh i am so glad i learned about linux when i was a student ...
13:09:55 <Inst> Have you tried disabling your firewalls?
13:10:00 <Inst> and your anti-virus?
13:10:14 <Inst> Or, alternately, used a different internet connection (such as through a VPN, or through the neighboring Starbucks)?
13:10:16 <Guest96> such build instructions are to be ignored
13:10:28 <Inst> That is why I feel like you're trolling.
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13:10:38 <Guest96> i have to make sure my accepted method is useful for everyone
13:11:07 <Guest96> Inst: not at all. its a focus grouping thing. if im asked to do something like turn off my firewall, which is a dubious step, then this is not the accepted solution
13:11:12 <int-e> I think we're stuck in a loop of endless complaints.
13:11:30 <Guest96> i think its useful to understand this point
13:11:32 <Inst> int-e: more like an infinite list, being strictly evaluated? :)
13:11:46 <Inst> https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/install_and_upgrade/
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13:11:55 <Inst> Alternative build system, give it a shot and see what happens
13:12:04 <Inst> On 64-bit Windows, the easiest way to install Stack directly (rather than use GHCup) is to download and use the Windows installer.
13:12:46 <Inst> but, for other forms of trolling:
13:12:55 <Guest96> derp. well cocolately not only hangs, it doesnt install it before it hangs, despite claiming to
13:12:57 <Inst> How cancerous is it if I put all my code into typeclasses?
13:13:05 <Inst> Guest96: I suggest you try stack instead
13:13:08 <Guest96> its fine to use typeclasses
13:13:15 <Inst> sm would be happy, but I'm not sure if he'd be inclined to help you with your installation process
13:13:15 <Guest96> stack is not advised
13:13:27 <int-e> Inst: I don't think this is pure
13:13:28 <Inst> I mean if GHCup isn't working, Chocolatey doesn't work, go to Stack
13:13:36 <Guest96> fair
13:13:40 <Guest96> i think i might go wsl
13:13:47 <Guest96> seems like thats how people were inclined
13:13:56 <Inst> int-e: I just underuse typeclasses besides
13:14:06 <Inst> using other people's typeclasses
13:14:17 <Guest96> what have you got against typeclasses?
13:14:25 <Inst> I'm curious about how well it works, even though I know it's an old design anti-pattern in Haskell
13:14:38 <Inst> Guest96: needless polymorphism for the scale I work at
13:14:54 <Guest96> the keep it simple stupid idiom
13:15:13 <Guest96> its sometimes helpful to capture an abstraction even if you have few instances
13:15:19 <Inst> my interest here is more
13:15:27 <Guest96> it can save you from trying to factor it out at some later juncture
13:15:35 <Inst> how to become more comfortable with the more advanced parts of the type system
13:15:41 <Inst> instead of treating it as just a typo-checker
13:15:57 <Guest96> typeclasses are hardly advanced, unless you have them like, recursing over type level nats and stuff
13:16:06 <Guest96> recursive type families style
13:16:15 <Guest96> or with like, associated datatypes etc
13:16:45 <Guest96> but if its just a choice of like, do i put all these functions as an argument to a data constructor, a function, or require an instance to be defined
13:17:18 <Guest96> there are even cases eg, for scoping, that have instances use implicit parameters allowing them to be used intechangably and defined away from top level
13:17:29 <kuribas> tomsmeding: it does, but that later I still got the same error.
13:17:41 <Guest96> this is sometimes useful when you might have like, some data that goes into a type that originates from IO
13:18:03 <Guest96> it might not be possibly to strictly evaluate it before it is made as a reference
13:18:11 <Inst> IIRC, more efficient way to do ReaderT
13:18:25 <Inst> ugly and fragile, however
13:18:54 <Guest96> like, typeclasses can be used in some complicated ways, but generally, if your just using them as an alternative to place the function arguments instead of at a datatype, then its a good option, especially if such choices are intended to be made globally
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13:19:13 <Guest96> the constraints and inheritence framework is also FP's version of objects
13:19:30 <Guest96> so some find it useful in addapting from OOP languages
13:19:38 <int-e> only if you hold it wrong
13:20:03 <Inst> yup, I just created class MyApp where
13:20:06 <Inst> main :: IO ()
13:20:13 <Inst> main = putStrLn "This is degenerate"
13:20:20 <Inst> instance MyApp where
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13:20:30 <Guest96> the idea of *not* expressing an abstraction, and just sort circuiting all the instances, like if there are only 2, not bothering with the commonality, its kind of a brute force and brutal way of proceeding
13:20:41 <Guest96> it might be more brief but is generally considered unidiomatic
13:20:51 <Inst> but seriously, has this been tried before?
13:20:56 <Inst> I want to learn all the ways it's a bad idea!
13:21:09 <Guest96> the "not polymorphic now" requirement being basically a machine head kind of idea
13:21:15 <Inst> (it's probably a bad idea because of uncontrollable instance imports, no?)
13:21:33 <Guest96> like some C junky that just wants everything in one line as a kernal with any type system stuff just like, deligated to the surroundings
13:22:15 <Guest96> Inst: we dont put main in classes, its a keyword and must be placed at top level in the main module
13:22:22 <int-e> Type classes were introduced in a paper titled "How to make ad-hoc polymorphism less ad hoc" and that title should tell you that it's motivation is quite a bit removed from OOP.
13:23:06 <int-e> (There's some overlap but that's mainly because OOP also overloads functions.)
13:23:09 <Guest96> we have a lot of language extensions since then, like typeapplications rankntypes and scopedtypevariables
13:23:17 <Inst> oh yeah?
13:23:19 <Inst> It works in ghc
13:23:20 <Guest96> that allow some nice tricks
13:24:06 <Guest96> for instance, suppose you want to have a default object associated to some type, but you might have several of these
13:24:18 <Guest96> eg, if i have machines that train each other, and get bigger in a series
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13:24:26 <Guest96> this depends on a natural number
13:24:32 <Guest96> the shape of the machine corresponds
13:24:53 <Guest96> the typeclasses resolve the type level nat, and work out the shape for the machine (as a type)
13:24:55 <jjhoo> the ghcup install script I downloaded seems to be doing something with msys2, i.e. curl --proto '=https' --tlsv1.2 -sSf https://get-ghcup.haskell.org --output install.sh
13:25:02 <mauke> main is not a keyword
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13:25:19 <Guest96> ok my bad, still shouldnt put it in a class
13:25:28 <Inst> jihoo: are you having problems too?
13:25:35 <Guest96> you would get a conflic with trying to declare main at the main module
13:25:37 <Inst> I mean, Guest96 is questionable, weird complaining had a bunch of people suspecting trolling
13:25:43 <mauke> Guest96: why?
13:25:47 <Inst> but if you're having the same issues, and on windows to boot, it'd probably merit investigation
13:26:03 <jjhoo> Inst: I was able to start ghci
13:26:12 <Guest96> could you keep such allegations to yourself please Inst
13:26:52 <Guest96> jjhoo: thanks for the suggestion
13:27:08 <Inst> Well, I apologize, but it was a bit untoward, in the same way others were untoward
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13:29:10 <Guest96> ok
13:29:17 <Inst> int-e: but what do you mean that stuffing code into arbitrary typeclasses isn't pure?
13:29:35 <int-e> Inst: I was commenting on loop vs. infinite list
13:30:01 <Guest96> some argue that it is better to place such data into a datatype, or even a function argument
13:31:09 <Guest96> suppose you have an object and a function to apply to it.
13:31:10 <Guest96> do you have a datatype containing the object and its function?
13:31:10 <Guest96> do you have the datatype constructor take a constraint that the typeclass giving that function is instantiated?
13:31:11 <Guest96> do you just have a function which applies the function to the object?
13:31:35 <Guest96> suppose the object is a matrix
13:31:41 <Guest96> the function is matrix multiplication
13:31:56 <Guest96> now, it depends if there is also another object or not
13:32:03 <Guest96> so lets also have a net, and net application
13:32:06 <Guest96> both transfer vectors
13:32:18 <Guest96> question is if we need a class
13:32:30 <Guest96> we could have matrix and net both instantiate the transfer functions class
13:32:49 <Guest96> or we could create an object to store objects with their transfer functions
13:33:28 <Guest96> data Statelike s i o = Statelike s (s -> i -> (s,o))
13:34:10 <Guest96> or class Stated s i o where stateFunction :: s -> i -> (s,o)
13:34:32 <Guest96> where i think you would have s -> i , o as a functional dependency
13:34:58 <Guest96> eg s~(Net Double) implies i ~[Double] ~ o
13:35:09 <Inst> int-e: define a loop
13:35:14 <Inst> i.e, Haskell can do iteration purely
13:35:48 <Guest96> which in this case do you think is the better approach Inst: the version with the class, or the version with the datatype?
13:36:10 <int-e> Inst: but there were side effects in the loop
13:36:15 int-e shrugs
13:36:26 <int-e> the moment has passed anyway
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13:55:49 <juri_> no-one is doing any AI training or inference in haskell here, are they?
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14:02:34 <Inst> Guest96 was claiming he was, which is why I suspect he was just trolling about it all
14:02:37 <Inst> *they
14:03:29 <juri_> I'm doing some of it in vector assembly, and C.. help. help help. HELP!
14:03:47 <juri_> I miss haskell.
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14:05:06 <Inst> in C just write it all in macros, what's the problem?
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14:05:52 <juri_> broken C compilers. no fun.
14:06:58 <juri_> I'd rather be haskelling, but.. i haven't delved into the haskell code generator, and would have to teach it a new assembly language.
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14:47:23 <probie> You could always take the accelerate approach and write your code as an EDSL in Haskell
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15:04:56 <Inst> btw regarding cassava
15:05:02 <Inst> it's not normal to use CSV as a basic database, right?
15:06:35 <Rembane> Inst: I think it is. It's less cursed than using Excel for it.
15:07:02 <Inst> hummm, fff
15:07:09 <Inst> i don't think cassava has native support for database-like operations
15:07:17 <Rembane> Inst: What's the context?
15:07:30 <Rembane> Inst: Read it all, do the stuff, write it again?
15:07:49 <Inst> write in place, change the file seek
15:08:00 <Inst> then again, that doesn't really work with filesystems, right?
15:08:04 <Inst> I'd have to read-write the DB the entire time
15:08:29 <c_wraith> It's normal-ish to use CSV as a data interchange format. Not as an in-memory store.
15:08:45 <c_wraith> or even an on-disk working store.
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15:09:07 <Rembane> If you need a database, I think it's reasonable to use sqlite instead of csv.
15:09:50 <Inst> just looking for something lightweight since I can work postgresql simple
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15:23:14 <juri_> probie: I've been considering it!
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16:54:19 <Guest96> im still doing my 2024 trying to build ghc on a new laptop.
16:54:24 <Guest96> im still doing my 2024 trying to build ghc on a new laptop.
16:54:43 <Guest96> i have sofar failed in powershell, msys2 and wsl
16:56:34 <Guest96> currently trying in ubuntu wsl with apt-get
16:56:55 <Guest96> which is weird and actually quite welcome to see appearing in a windows build pipeline
16:57:18 <Guest96> and it works aswell!
16:57:34 <Guest96> takes all of 10s to complete! like since i logged on
16:58:05 <Guest96>  sudo apt-get install haskell-platform
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16:58:22 <Guest96> ill try that in msys2
16:58:47 <Inst> ummmm
16:58:51 <Inst> haskell-platform is dead
16:58:56 <Guest96> no sir
16:58:57 <Guest96> works
16:59:02 <Guest96> only thing that works infact
16:59:18 <Inst> but you're on obsolete haskell
16:59:22 <Inst> if you're okay with that, have fun
16:59:25 <Inst> https://www.haskell.org/platform/
16:59:34 <Guest96> 8.8.4
16:59:37 <yushyin> "The Haskell Platform is deprecated since 2022 and is no longer the recommended way of installing Haskell. " -- https://www.haskell.org/platform/ '
16:59:39 <Guest96> yeah kind of outdated
17:00:00 <Guest96> i think that was before ghcup started being more broken than not
17:00:05 <Inst> that was what, a 2018 version?
17:00:21 <Guest96> idk, not sure if i need any of the newer language extensions
17:00:38 <Inst> or libraries
17:00:40 <Guest96> and if this is the only reproducable build of ghc then i guess ill stick to that for the sake of posterity
17:00:56 <Inst> why don't you try hugs instead?
17:01:10 <Guest96> Inst: libraries are the surest way to ensure your code will break for a reason that is not your fault. i have no library dependencies
17:01:12 <Inst> https://www.haskell.org/hugs/pages/downloading-May2006.htm
17:01:16 <Inst> oh okay
17:01:20 <Guest96> the only ones i did were to hmatrix, which prompty broke
17:01:37 <Guest96> hugs!? im running an agi!
17:01:49 <Guest96> i just bought a new machine to do so (it has 20gb ram!)
17:02:08 <Inst> you're just an AGI like everyone else here
17:02:10 <Guest96> hugs -O2
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17:02:23 <Inst> unless we've kicked women out of the category of humans
17:02:28 <Guest96> not yet, i havent uploaded myself yet, im still your master
17:02:42 <Guest96> women were not kicked out, just mischarecterized
17:03:04 <Guest96> and such are subject to irrational phobia
17:03:09 <Inst> (humans are technically created by humans through natural reproduction, hence all people are artificial general intelligences)
17:03:14 <Inst> ummm, okay
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17:03:38 <Guest96> hmatrix depends on blas
17:03:42 <Guest96> which requires unix
17:03:46 <Guest96> which is why it breaks
17:04:08 <Guest96> always some different way of piping through why it cant locate the dll or lib files
17:04:36 <Inst> who are you really? I get the feeling you're some big name in the Haskell community trying to troll
17:04:42 <Guest96> maybe if the wsl thing becomes the accepted way to access the compiler, then we can have actually reproducable builds
17:05:14 <Guest96> Inst: if i reveal my true identity, the mods, who were tasked to embroil and defame me, will rear up and give us all cause for concern
17:05:28 <Guest96> *alegedly*
17:06:00 <ncf> troll yes, big name probably not
17:06:04 <Guest96> i will continue trying to tinker away at these presumably irrelavent build chians of the future
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17:08:11 <Guest96> ncf: its weird, i was on before and they were claiming i was the haskell comitee, or that there wasnt a haskell comittee and thats why none of us get paid. so one minute your saying im the one not paying you, and the next im a troll apparently. like, at least have some consistency! anyway i dont want to be gauded into any kind of altercation so id
17:08:11 <Guest96> rather if you just didnt aledge that i am a troll, which i am not.
17:08:41 <haskellbridge> <s​m> wow megathread
17:08:43 <Guest96> im also not the haskell comittee if this helps
17:08:49 <haskellbridge> <s​m> maybe take a break to cool things
17:08:54 <Guest96> good call.
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17:15:22 <Inst> I wonder if I'm being parodied
17:15:36 <Inst> I tend to be stubborn and commit to trying to harass people to get help to do things that might not be worth doing
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17:16:34 Guest96 is now known as guy
17:16:54 <guy> so i had a question actually, about this AGI
17:17:01 <guy> people were trying to talk to me about liscencing
17:17:52 <guy> i was jokingly like, ill liscence it so if you use it your software has to be open sourced (the joke being, like, its an AGI its going to end up in some weapons system, and this is *not* going to be open sourced, but will constitute a hilarious liscencing violation)
17:17:54 <geekosaur> Inst: you and about ¾ of the newer generation…
17:18:25 <ncf> guy: this is off-topic in #haskell
17:18:36 <guy> thats a shame, i thought you might have wanted it
17:18:50 <guy> if it was a comunity effort however...
17:20:28 <guy> ncf: what exactly, can you be very clear
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17:22:30 <guy> hi?
17:22:49 <guy> can someone help me here, someone just said i cant speak?
17:24:09 <guy> ok, im going to take that as, not in error, but perhaps overzealous, and move on, if thats ok
17:24:36 <guy> (presumably the joking preamble was too opertune)
17:25:03 <guy> but im left with this horrible feeling that im now unsure what exactly is and isnt deemed offtopic.
17:25:16 <guy> i was literally just trying to open a discussion, it seems to have been nipped in the bud
17:25:20 <guy> i dont like that
17:25:37 <int-e> surely you can see that none of your past 20 or so messages were about haskell
17:25:44 <int-e> at all
17:26:27 <guy> now we are both sidelined
17:27:20 <Inst> maybe it's the same guy who did iamsnoyjerk back in the day?
17:27:26 <guy> ill just come right out and say it as clearly as i can. i have worked with people on this channel for many years on a range of projects, from language extensions to random applications. i have had help fixing bugs in my code and i have ...
17:27:31 <guy> hi sorry im having to field abuse
17:27:55 <danse-nr3> hey chill peps
17:28:01 <guy> i have worked with snoyberg on server stuff, but im not needing to give my credentials!
17:28:05 <guy> thanks danse!
17:28:09 <int-e> @quote
17:28:10 <lambdabot> pastah says: the maybe monad is like cheating. everything is so awesomelly easy.
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17:28:31 <Inst> iamsnoyjerk was a parody account targeted at Michael Snoyman for some reason
17:28:47 <guy> thats offtopic
17:29:16 <danse-nr3> yeah but peps includes you guy ...
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17:29:27 <guy> yes yes im working on it
17:29:33 <guy> *breathing with the calm*
17:31:34 <guy> put it this way, i respect the members of this comunity. i think if they helped me on this sensitive technology that it would not result in it getting leaked and incorporated into some weapons system. i think that while my ethical position is not to put it on hackage, where it might be misused, i can still basically get a copy to accademic
17:31:35 <guy> colluages that are prepared to work on it, and basically fill in the blanks that will have to be there basically for security reasons
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17:31:49 <guy> its a very weird caveat to have to attatch to a call to arms for a comunity project
17:32:37 <danse-nr3> i think many of us are lost at what is your topic now guy
17:32:43 <guy> i also want to state firmly why i think this is good for the haskell comunity
17:33:02 <Inst> yup, i'm being parodied
17:33:15 <guy> i think the ML application makes fantastic use of the type system, and the processing under the hood in the compiler.
17:33:24 <ncf> try reddit or discourse. nobody here cares
17:33:32 <guy> i would never approach it in any other language, and i think it showcases the strengths of eg ttype safety very well
17:33:46 <guy> it could be a flagship project, if we could talk past this gibbering noise
17:34:11 <danse-nr3> you don't want to publish it so what are you talking about
17:34:14 <guy> ncf: you do not speak for us all
17:34:35 <ncf> i pretty clearly do, by now
17:34:55 <guy> danse: good question. did you understand the bit about not only having to launder the code through private channels, but also facing difficulty laundering the discussion about doing so through said channels
17:35:29 <guy> i would find it convinient to be able to do so openly
17:35:41 <danse-nr3> no, i got lost but the general mood here does not invite me to understand better. Maybe another day
17:35:54 <Inst> iirc monochrom has shadowops here
17:35:55 <guy> the general mood? one user is haranguing me
17:35:56 <Inst> not sure who else does
17:36:22 <guy> ncf: can i ask you to please disist, your affecting my reach
17:36:51 <danse-nr3> your mood sounds quite upset as well guy so ... maybe another day, here or in offtopic, it is not a bad channel
17:37:01 <guy> im fine
17:37:03 <guy> thanks
17:37:21 <guy> just not into a discussion to the contrary, if thats clear
17:38:22 <guy> now. we could also consider the concept of pressurization in a process where i would reveal valuble information
17:38:49 <guy> if i seem to be at risk of being put on the deffensive and losing chat privilagees, then perhaps it is not the team to trust with the agi. quite frankly
17:39:00 <sm> how about we all take a break and let the metadiscussion end ?
17:39:06 <guy> which is a shame because ertainly some of the users here would be welcome
17:39:23 <guy> sm: because that would be my abject cancellation
17:39:30 <guy> and the fruition of the haranguing efforts
17:39:41 sm takes a 10m break, see you after
17:39:54 ← sm parts (~znc@plaintextaccounting/sm) ()
17:39:57 <guy> ok, this seems fine. im also just going on a 10 min break
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17:40:27 <danse-nr3> goddes bless breaks
17:40:40 ChanServ sets mode +o glguy
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17:42:42 <Inst> thanks
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18:02:58 <sm> and now for something completely different, while we wait for the next Haskell topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdJk8ROpuEo
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19:03:37 <Inst> "Everything is narrated by the brilliant British philosopher Alan Watts" <- I should have known, sm :)
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19:04:59 <haskellbridge> <s​m> This game was also an inspiration for the film Everything, Everywhere, All at Once
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19:06:34 <haskellbridge> <s​m> speaking of which.. it has been a long time since the last new Haskell game... (see what I did there)
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19:08:40 <haskellbridge> <s​m> also, which programming language is best for modelling a multiverse of parallel realities do you think ?
19:10:14 <c_wraith> probably malbolge
19:10:18 <ncf> kripke models
19:11:01 <haskellbridge> <s​m> would Verse be in the running ?
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19:11:44 <haskellbridge> <L​iamzee> No, I don't see what you did there :(
19:11:56 <int-e> c_wraith: you'll want malbolge unshackled to get unbounded state
19:11:57 <haskellbridge> <L​iamzee> Just curious, can I ask about what Hakyll does?
19:12:07 <haskellbridge> <s​m> brought it on topic.
19:12:11 haskellbridge <s​m> reads: Malbolge was very difficult to understand when it arrived, taking two years for the first Malbolge program to appear. The author himself has never written a Malbolge program.[2] The first program was not written by a human being; it was generated by a beam search algorithm designed by Andrew Cooke and implemented in Lisp
19:12:35 <c_wraith> Liamzee: it's a static site generator. Well, it's more like a library for building static site generators.
19:13:17 <c_wraith> Liamzee: more generally, it doesn't particularly *need* to be used to make web sites. It's a system for creating output files based on input files.
19:13:19 <haskellbridge> <s​m> +1
19:13:31 <Rembane> That sounds like a compiler
19:13:40 <c_wraith> A very limited compiler, yes.
19:13:59 <c_wraith> It stops around the level of complexity needed for mapping markdown files to html files :)
19:14:11 <haskellbridge> <L​iamzee> well my objective (I'm Inst, btw) for a while
19:14:14 <int-e> sm: the crazy bit is that people have actually figured out ways to program in it (mostly compiling from other languages)
19:14:28 <c_wraith> It also integrates pandoc, so it's got markdown -> html as something pretty built-in.
19:14:46 <Inst> iirc, it's a derivative of Jekyll in Clojure, right?
19:15:05 <Inst> Jekyll's in Ruby!
19:15:45 <c_wraith> It is not exactly as batteries-included as Jekyll.
19:16:14 <geekosaur> ignoring that pandoc is a pretty big battery
19:16:42 <Logio> hakyll ~= shake + pandoc integration, but with slightly bad abstractions (at least
19:16:50 <c_wraith> pandoc is great for document->document. It's not so great for tree of documents -> interlinked blog
19:16:56 <Logio> ... 6 years ago when I tried it lsat
19:17:14 <haskellbridge> <s​m> my guess is almost everyone tries Hakyll, finds having such a heavy site generator build is not worth it, and switches to something with a standard binary
19:17:48 <Logio> c_wraith: hakyll also struggles with making recursive pages (e.g. list of blog articles within each article), which was my main problem with it
19:17:52 <haskellbridge> <s​m> shake + pandoc binary is pretty good
19:17:57 <dminuoso> 19:08:40 +haskellbridge │ <sm> also, which programming language is best for modelling a multiverse of parallel realities do you think ?
19:18:00 <dminuoso> If in doubt, APL.
19:18:04 <haskellbridge> <s​m> make/shake + pandoc binary is pretty good
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19:19:26 <c_wraith> hakyll has some weird design errors that are basically impossible to fix because all the things that depend on it depend on the design errors.
19:19:34 <Inst> ah
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19:20:03 <Inst> I've been rambling on for the past 72 hours about trying to build a frontend lib in Haskell, except Miso and Reflex probably do it better :(
19:20:44 <Inst> hakyll is related because i wanted to see the state of prior work on "simple, low-abstraction" front-ends in Haskell
19:20:50 <haskellbridge> <s​m> how about making an experiment Inst
19:21:58 <haskellbridge> <L​iamzee> i mean the basis would just be some random support lib built on blaze
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19:22:12 <haskellbridge> <L​iamzee> because mabye i've screwed up, but there are no templating libs for either blaze or lucid?
19:22:36 <haskellbridge> <s​m> also how come you alternate two names ? I feel like I'm in that movie :)
19:22:40 <haskellbridge> <L​iamzee> or maybe i've missed something
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19:23:06 <Rembane> Isn't both blaze and lucid templating libs?
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19:24:08 <haskellbridge> <L​iamzee> ummm, just a bunch of neuroses re: sm
19:24:44 <probie> They're not templating in the `{{foreach thing in things}}<li>{{thing}}</li>{{end}}` style
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19:25:21 <Inst> more like the idea of just having a bunch of premade functions that most Haskellers would write on their own
19:25:34 <Rembane> Good point. I just see them as similar enough that I clump them into the same pigeon hole.
19:25:40 <Inst> I had an idea for trying to have a Haskell version of Wordpress
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19:25:58 <Inst> this is close enough, the idea would be that the library would be easy enough to use, but powerful enough, that it could be the next xmonad @sm ;)
19:26:04 <Inst> you'd just generate html / css / js off it
19:26:12 <Inst> don't need to fully commit to the whole Haskell ecosystem
19:26:31 <Inst> just write some simple scripts off it, run the executable, then host it on nginx or some other server app like that
19:26:40 <Inst> worth an experiment, right?
19:26:42 haskellbridge <s​m> remembers this old list: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5770168/templating-packages-for-haskell
19:27:56 <haskellbridge> <s​m> clckwrks is the nearest thing to wordpress in haskell I believe
19:29:11 <haskellbridge> <s​m> I'm all for experiments! A hard problem for "simple" haskell-based things is the dependency on gnarly heavy tools/ecosystem
19:30:28 <Inst> I think I saw it a long time ago, and it was updated in the last 24 months!
19:33:05 <probie> Do you really need to generate JS? For a CMS, you can probably get quite far with just something like htmx. Client-side form validation might be a bit tricky though
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19:44:52 <Inst> I would, because JS is sort of a lingua franca, same as C, no?
19:45:17 <Inst> i sort of lost interest, because my original problem was seeing how ridiculously verbose HTML could be, I was thinking:
19:45:44 <Inst> god, this is horrible, then I realized you could just style everything with CSS, load raw data via html and identifiers, then spawn the page using JS isntead
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19:47:43 <EvanR> html is too verbose, must encode the page in compressed random-looking unicode text with a javascript decompressor included
19:47:58 haskellbridge <s​m> suspects every variation of generating/serving/rendering HTML/CSS/JS has been tried/productised/branded, and the best one is relative to the kind of apps and constraints needed
19:49:13 <haskellbridge> <s​m> do you want mostly page-like content, do you want an unrestricted gui canvas, do you need to work offline, etc.
19:49:44 <Rembane> EvanR: Is this a jump back to dminuoso's "If in doubt, use APL"?
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19:54:20 <Inst> EvanR: it's better than it looks, I mean, it'd be more functional in style to just load everything into <div hidden id="foo"> blocks
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19:54:41 <probie> Off-topic, but I remember watching a talk about how Dyalog APL was adding multi-platform GUI support via electron 5-10 years ago, and the expected workflow was generating the requisite HTML from within APL instead of anything "higher level"
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19:55:05 <Inst> how did that work out?
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20:15:39 <Inst> thank you for being encouraging and supportive, even if I've been somewhat disappointing
20:15:50 <Inst> and irritating too
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20:17:53 <juri_> Inst: we're haskellers. we can be annoying too. :)
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22:29:30 <Inst> curious, how does unsafeCoerce work, anyways, and how can I predict where it'll segfault?
22:31:33 <monochrom> If "newtype T = MkT Int" for example, then unsafeCoerce between T and Int is OK (unless you also need their typeclass instances).
22:32:18 <monochrom> But that use case is better served with the compiler-generated safe Coercible instance.
22:32:24 <monochrom> s/with/by/
22:32:55 <EvanR> unsafeCoerce dismisses the type checker and so you're at the mercy of dreaded actual behavior of the compiler
22:33:13 <EvanR> if you use it wrong, good luck predicting *where* it will segfault, if it even does that
22:33:35 <EvanR> it could cause monkeys to fly out of your nose!
22:34:04 <Inst> yeah, i'm having fun
22:34:11 <Inst> did you know that [Void] is inhabited?
22:34:26 <Inst> Incidentally, by the same logic, so's Maybe Void
22:34:31 <sadie_> > [] @Void
22:34:33 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:4: error: parse error on input ‘@’
22:34:54 <sadie_> > ([] :: [Void])
22:34:55 <lambdabot> []
22:35:00 <monochrom> Maybe Void is inhabited by Nothing and this is independent of Void.
22:35:12 <sadie_> :3
22:35:32 <Inst> actually it's trivial, in the same way Proxy (a :: k) is a thing
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22:39:53 <EvanR> Void is inhabited too
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22:40:38 <EvanR> newton may have been on to something when he claimed there were ghosts of departed quantity
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22:41:05 <Inst> bottom, of course
22:46:17 <EvanR> http://sigtbd.csail.mit.edu/pubs/2016/paper9.pdf
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23:18:04 <Inst> is there a specific terminology to "being only inhabited by bottom"?
23:20:02 <EvanR> equivalent to Void xD
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23:21:10 <ncf> empty
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23:27:48 <EvanR> the type speaks an infinite deal of nothing
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23:34:50 <Maxdamantus> how many bottom values are there?
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23:35:47 <c_wraith> as many as you want.
23:35:57 <c_wraith> Depending on how willing you are to distinguish them.
23:36:05 <c_wraith> Or two.
23:36:13 <Maxdamantus> is `fix id` the same as `undefined`? is `undefined` the same as `error "defined"`?
23:36:23 <c_wraith> If the only things you'll recognize is "runtime exception" vs "nontermination"
23:37:58 <c_wraith> segfault is the same as undefined!
23:38:21 <Maxdamantus> well, if I'm allowed to decide, I decide that there are 0 bottom values, since the evaluation never finishes.
23:39:25 <c_wraith> that's a very internal viewpoint, but IO can distinguish between runtime exceptions and non-termination. (though it can't distinguish non-termination from "not terminated yet")
23:39:35 <Maxdamantus> so `Void` has 0 values and `[Void]` has 1 value and people can make sense of the world again.
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23:39:59 <c_wraith> Eh. [Void] has n values.
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23:40:05 <c_wraith> no matter how many Void has.
23:40:23 <Maxdamantus> I can at least accept the logic there.
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23:42:42 <EvanR> you can decide to ignore differences for the sake of abstraction
23:43:02 <EvanR> but you can't introduce differences where there are none... apparently like multi-electron wavefunctions
23:43:12 <EvanR> or you get the wrong statistics
23:43:18 <c_wraith> You can even mumble "fast and loose reasoning is morally correct" and ignore bottoms entirely when analyzing behavior in fully-defined situations.
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23:44:58 <c_wraith> If your code generates fully-defined outputs for all fully-defined inputs, then you've at least established some bounds on its behavior even if you ignore inputs with bottoms in them.
23:46:48 <EvanR> [Void] has n values?
23:47:00 <EvanR> what is n
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23:47:22 <c_wraith> some number.
23:47:27 <EvanR> which one xD
23:47:40 <c_wraith> bigger than whichever one you're gonna ask about.
23:47:44 <EvanR> lool
23:47:55 <EvanR> n + 1 ?
23:48:05 <c_wraith> nope, bigger.
23:48:14 <EvanR> n > n + 1
23:48:50 <c_wraith> now, solve the recurrance...
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23:50:30 <EvanR> 0 > 1
23:50:53 <EvanR> that's absurd
23:53:52 <yin> :t absurd
23:53:54 <lambdabot> Void -> a
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