Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-04-17 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:20:34 <cheater> i need haskell to get a first-class FSM type
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08:13:54 <carbolymer> there was an alternative to HLS somewhere on github, but I can't find it
08:13:58 <carbolymer> anyone remembers the name?
08:15:15 <probie> ghcid?
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08:20:29 <[Leary]> carbolymer: perhaps https://github.com/josephsumabat/static-ls
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08:22:05 <carbolymer> [Leary]: I think it was this one, thanks
08:22:39 <carbolymer> nice, it has hover, definition and references
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08:23:07 <carbolymer> I was kinda hoping for some kind of imports management support
08:23:13 <carbolymer> I'm wasting too much time on that these days
08:24:25 <jackdk> I don't know why this bothers me so much less than it seems to bother everyone else, but Taylor Fausak released https://hackage.haskell.org/package/imp the other day
08:25:01 <carbolymer> nice
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08:25:52 <[Leary]> IIRC there's a lot you can do for that with GHC alone; someone (DigitalKiwi?) had some helpful scripts on their website, but I can't find the URL.
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08:28:47 <carbolymer> [Leary]: wdym? My main problem is that I'm making code changes, HLS get's puzzled by them, starts computing something for a minute or two and in the meantime I'm finishing my code chunk without HLS support and I have only imports left to fix: import new modules, remove redundant imports
08:29:02 <carbolymer> so I'm usually going to get some water or brush my teeth
08:29:06 <carbolymer> and hey, HLS is back!
08:29:26 <carbolymer> but how many times a day can you brush your teeth....
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08:31:48 <carbolymer> jackdk: that's an interesting plugin, I'm wondering if HLS hover supports that if you use this plugin
08:33:12 <[Leary]> You can convince GHC to tell you what the minimal imports are with -ddump-minimal-imports. Someone wrote a script that used this to clean up the source file.
08:33:39 <tomsmeding> right, if you don't care about redundant imports while coding, note that HLS has a code action to import things
08:34:11 <tomsmeding> if you put your cursor on an undefined reference, you'll get a code action (depends on your editor how that shows up) giving you a choice of modules to import that thing from
08:34:28 <tomsmeding> the import will end up at the bottom of your imports list, but that's also something you can fix later if you want
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08:43:22 <carbolymer> tomsmeding: I know, but my main problem is that HLS is not catching up with my code changes :/
08:43:39 <carbolymer> 80% of the time
08:43:41 <tomsmeding> that sounds like a completely separate problem concerning HLS' performance :p
08:43:54 <jackdk> I personally use a ghcid driver like dante to avoid HLS.
08:44:21 <tomsmeding> carbolymer: are you alternately making changes in modules that are very far apart in your module hierarchy, making HLS recompile a whole bunch of modules in between in order to catch up?
08:45:42 <tomsmeding> monochrom: one could say that DataKinds is, in fact, a quality-of-lift extension
08:45:43 <carbolymer> jackdk: can you link to dante? I'm only finding the dante from devil my cry in my search x_x
08:45:57 <tomsmeding> search for "emacs dante"
08:46:10 <carbolymer> tomsmeding: nope, but it's a big project so HLS gets stuck quite often; I haven't tried to reproduce it because it's a non-deterministic issue
08:46:22 <tomsmeding> carbolymer: what HLS version are you on?
08:46:22 <carbolymer> thx
08:46:46 <carbolymer> ah it's a frontend to ghci
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15:23:53 <masaeedu> is there a way to add a breakpoint in IO-based code?
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15:25:40 <masaeedu> My main requirement are: 1) being able to inspect the value of `Show`-able things in scope at the breakpoint, and 2) stepping over a line of code repeatedly
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15:32:26 <masaeedu> the answer looks to be "no"
15:32:59 <c_wraith> ghci has some debugger-like facilities, but no one has ever used them
15:33:06 <c_wraith> (or so it seems)
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15:33:32 <masaeedu> i thought there might be a cool TH hack or something, but i forgot it only supplies semantic information about preceding declaration groups
15:34:51 <c_wraith> there's also https://github.com/CrystalSplitter/ghcitui/blob/main/MANUAL.rst, which is a recent project that aims to give a friendlier front-end to ghci's debugger
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15:35:07 <masaeedu> neat
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15:36:22 <masaeedu> that is really cool
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15:41:45 <masaeedu> i wish it was easier to traverse build system abstractions when using this kind of tool
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16:17:39 <lyxia> masaeedu: https://github.com/aaronallen8455/breakpoint
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16:22:30 <masaeedu> amazing, thank you
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18:17:41 <reki> Hi there! I've made a small new project
18:17:42 <reki> https://github.com/ibaryshnikov/future-hs
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18:19:21 <reki> Future Monad around Rust futures. It implements MonadIO, allowing to mix futures with IO
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18:37:45 <EvanR> what is a rust future
18:38:25 <dolio> It's a contract to buy rust at a specified future price and date.
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18:39:43 <EvanR> 🤑
18:42:15 <c_wraith> I hope they're going for negative prices.
18:42:56 <Rembane> Negative rust... flux?
18:47:44 <c_wraith> EvanR: a future in rust is sort of a continuation. Not exactly right, but... close enough.
18:49:02 <EvanR> so more like -> IO b than an IO a?
18:49:33 <EvanR> the right argument to >>= instead of the left
18:51:41 <c_wraith> Not really. It's more like IO a, I suppose. Still not right, but close. The big thing it has in common is that a future is not automatically executed just because it exists.
18:55:44 <mauke> so like IO a?
18:55:50 <mauke> er
18:55:58 <mauke> sorry, that's exactly what you said. I misread
18:56:19 <geekosaur> I'm trying to figure out if it's just "a monad considered as a callback mechanism"
18:56:37 <geekosaur> so it's `>>= f`
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19:03:20 <reki> I like the part about a contract to buy rust
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19:52:53 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> What’s an efficient data structure to collect log lines in memory? (For an application which captures a log, categorizes the lines and shows them to the user filtered by certain criteria
19:53:11 <mauke> a string
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19:53:35 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> As in "String"?
19:53:43 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> Seems unlikely.
19:54:27 <mauke> no, String is a list
19:54:36 <mauke> you'd need something like Text or ByteString
19:54:58 <dolio> You probably still want something better.
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19:55:29 <int-e> Vector Text?
19:56:17 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> It’s a live log. So I will append to it, again and again. Thus Vector seems suboptimal as well.
19:56:50 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> I was thinking maybe "Seq Text"?
19:57:25 <int-e> Sure, why not.
19:58:36 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> I mean if I primarily want to append then "[Text]" where I stack the last line on top would actually be kinda efficient.
19:58:57 <int-e> Maybe write a helper module that encapsulates this with the operations you actually need so that you can possibly swap it out later.
19:59:10 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> Good idea!
19:59:15 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> thx
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20:07:17 <monochrom> Hot Take: "Future" is just a thread.
20:08:23 <EvanR> thread as fundamental
20:11:25 <monochrom> I also have a meta-level hot take: This is why training in reading and writing precise semantics is valuable. You cannot convey the true meaning of "Future" with fairy tales, broken analogies, and misleading names like "Future".
20:11:56 <dolio> It's not just a thread. It's like a thread + an IVar or something.
20:13:20 <int-e> IVar = Future - Promise
20:14:02 <EvanR> lol
20:14:06 <dolio> Isn't the promise the ivar part?
20:14:48 <EvanR> I can't wait until 10 more programming languages are made each one attempting to define one of these words "the right way"
20:14:59 <EvanR> and ignoring what anyone else did
20:16:12 <int-e> dolio: I guess, but an IVar doesn't promise to be ever filled. :-P
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20:16:42 int-e Yoda blames word order for.
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20:43:37 <cheater> i have a stack project that has a cabal file that doesn't specify any versions bounds for the dependencies. i don't understand how it makes decisions on what versions to choose. how does it work?
20:43:54 <cheater> also, if i want to set a lower bound for one of the packages, where do i do that? in the .cabal ? in stack.yaml ?
20:45:48 <mauke> I thought stack had a fixed set of package versions
20:46:30 <geekosaur> yes, stack's resolver/snapshot will set versions for you
20:46:34 <mauke> https://www.stackage.org/lts-22.17
20:46:36 <glguy> cheater: the .cabal file lists the versions you support. The stack.yaml defines a local set of versions for your current workspace to build with now
20:46:42 <geekosaur> if you do want to constrain a version, you do it in the cabal file
20:47:01 <cheater> glguy: there's no "support". it's a personal project only used by two people
20:47:06 <cheater> geekosaur: OK
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20:51:19 <cheater> so, i'm following the logic of this code base, which was written > 4 years ago
20:51:44 <cheater> so in that, the .cabal has multiple copies of the same very long dependency list. i guess that's from before reusable dependency lists were a thing
20:52:02 <glguy> cheater: you can often factor that out now with a common section
20:52:05 <cheater> and there are no constraints in the cabal at all, instead stack.yaml specifies specific package versions
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20:52:45 <cheater> can i safely say that this was done in order to save on having to synchronize package constraints across 10 depends lists
20:52:46 <cheater> ?
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20:53:26 <geekosaur> stack users often just don't bother adding versioning at all in their cabal files.
20:53:28 <glguy> it was probably done that way because that's an easy way to do it and as long as you're making an executable and not a library that another executable will need it won't bite too hard
20:53:39 <cheater> oh wait
20:53:45 <cheater> i just saw this at the top of the .cabal
20:53:47 <geekosaur> (this does make it difficult to distribute projects to non-stack users, but you probably don't care)
20:53:57 <cheater> -- This file has been generated from package.yaml by hpack version 0.36.0
20:54:07 <cheater> yeah all the constraints i entered were deleted lmao
20:54:08 <glguy> it makes it difficult to distribute to other stack users in the future when versions move, too
20:54:37 <cheater> so is the hpack workflow just "put constraints in stack.yaml"
20:54:43 <glguy> no
20:54:48 <geekosaur> if you're using package.yaml you'll want to add the versioning there instead
20:56:57 <cheater> oh right yeah package.yaml
20:57:09 <cheater> right here goes nothing
20:57:52 <monochrom> If you are working on 4-year-old unupdated code, my understanding of the stack philosophy: unless you plan to spend time updating the code, just tell stack you need a past GHC version and past libraries, i.e., old "resolver".
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20:58:18 <monochrom> Perhaps s/working on/trying to compile/
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21:02:42 <cheater> Warning: Ignoring mypkg's bounds on time (>=1.9.3) and using time-1.8.0.2.
21:02:43 <cheater> Reason: allow-newer enabled.
21:02:48 <cheater> uhh... how does that make sense, stack?
21:03:00 <cheater> how is 1.8 newer than 1.9??
21:03:03 <c_wraith> newer, older... what's the difference?
21:03:17 <cheater> this fucking software. i swear to god
21:03:34 <monochrom> I have no evidence but I bet it was just miswording.
21:03:35 <geekosaur> weird. in cabal you need --allow-older for that
21:04:23 <cheater> and that's what we get when a contractor bodyshop tries to make a political landgrab
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21:05:46 <monochrom> Oh if you didn't detect how I tried to stay focused and hide my cynicism against stack's philosophy of reproducible-builds-just-means-turning-back-the-clock, let me add it now:
21:06:12 <cheater> go for it
21:06:47 <monochrom> In the MSDOS days we have nagware: software free of charge for say the 1st 30 days, after that it starts nagging you to pay.
21:07:01 <cheater> well, no
21:07:03 <sm> cheater: you could read the fine manual once and save a lot of headaches
21:07:08 <cheater> because in msdos, you didn't have RTC
21:07:10 <cheater> :)
21:07:18 <monochrom> People suppressed the nagging by just setting their system clocks back in time.
21:07:24 <cheater> hehe
21:07:31 <cheater> yeah...
21:07:36 <cheater> eternal 1992...
21:07:44 <monochrom> Reproducible execution by turning back the clock. Stack.
21:08:01 <cheater> sm: idk what that would help with error messages like the above...
21:08:13 <sm> if you'd like to paste the full output, I'll have a go
21:08:23 <sm> it certainly wouldn't hurt
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21:09:20 <cheater> that's pretty much the whole output.
21:09:29 <cheater> repeated 20x
21:10:05 <tomsmeding> the "pretty much" is sometimes key
21:10:08 <sm> @where paste
21:10:08 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
21:10:12 <cheater> "Whether to ignore version bounds in Cabal files. This also ignores lower bounds. The name allow-newer is chosen to match the commonly-used Cabal option."
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21:10:21 <cheater> lovely, stack
21:11:38 <cheater> sm: there's no other output. it's me doing "stack test --fast", then this sort of thing 20x, then it continues onto the build.
21:11:41 <cheater> but, yeah
21:11:52 <cheater> the manual explains this stupid message actually
21:12:03 <cheater> i can just shake my head
21:12:24 <EvanR> turning back the clock and resetting everything else on the computer to the original state still leaves the different in system entropy gained since the original run
21:12:38 <EvanR> if the program depends on entropy, you're hosed
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21:13:15 <cheater> is "stack configuration" the same thing as "resolver"?
21:13:25 <cheater> EvanR: lol..
21:13:31 <cheater> EvanR: we're not even getting that deep...
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21:14:01 <monochrom> Did I tell you that I would like Data.List.nubBy to randomize its internal algorithm so as to defeat people who try to abuse it by giving it a non-equivalence relation trying to be cute?
21:14:49 <cheater> you should finish every sentence with "referential transparency btw"
21:17:18 <int-e> > nubBy (\x y -> y `mod` x == 0) [2,3..]
21:17:20 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
21:17:30 <int-e> > take 10 $ nubBy (\x y -> y `mod` x /= 0) [2,3..]
21:17:31 <lambdabot> [2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024]
21:19:06 <EvanR> randomized algorithm still has a chance of working
21:19:12 <EvanR> better do round robin
21:19:55 <monochrom> Oh I think "sometimes it works" is more frustrating than "it never works" :)
21:20:45 <monochrom> You need to first give people beginner's luck and a false sense of security before you inflict Murphy's Law on them for maximum impact.
21:20:48 <EvanR> sometimes it works is already the situation we're in!
21:22:04 <monochrom> Give them hope, then dash it. Both 1984 and The Matrix taught us that. >:)
21:22:54 <cheater> this reminds me of that blog post i read a while ago where the author posits that programs and libraries often don't do what programmers would find most beneficial to use because programmers hate other programmers
21:23:04 <mauke> sewer mermaid strats
21:23:34 <cheater> monochrom: The Matrix taught me that anyone could be an agent
21:24:45 <monochrom> I don't think I buy that programmers-hate-other-programmers theory.
21:25:35 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> Who came up with whole "MVar, TVar, IVar, LVar, TMVar" distinction?
21:25:38 <cheater> oh yeah? what happens if you start python, and then type exit?
21:25:41 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> Its a zoo.
21:25:48 <monochrom> But I can buy: People hate other people's opinions.
21:26:05 <cheater> maralorn: the only one you really need to be afraid of is IVar.
21:26:10 <cheater> the boneless.
21:26:13 <monochrom> I am actually unfamiliar with Python.
21:26:25 <cheater> type "python3"
21:26:28 <cheater> then type "exit"
21:26:38 <cheater> see what happens
21:26:43 <cheater> (nothing dangerous)
21:26:54 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> cheater: Why?^^ You mean that’s the one that I definitely shouldn’t use?
21:27:00 <monochrom> But I actually highly respect that "exit" != "exit()" from the typed lambda calculus POV.
21:27:08 <cheater> maralorn: just making a reference to the Vikings tv series.
21:27:23 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> Ooooh
21:27:25 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> Nice one.
21:27:39 <EvanR> IVar is the coolest
21:27:45 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> Yeah, my first search result was the IKEA cupboard.
21:27:47 <monochrom> I would totally do the same if I wrote an intepreter for a functional language. Hell, I would even skip the helpful error message.
21:28:10 <EvanR> spookyButSafe :: IVar a -> a -- no IO
21:28:16 <monochrom> My interpreter would just reply "exit :: () -> ()".
21:28:20 <mauke> if you wanted exit to work, you'd use perl
21:29:05 <int-e> maralorn it's less of a distinction and more of a "variables with additional capabilities" thing. I believe M = mutable?, T = transactional, I = immutable?, L = listening, TM = transactional (STM-based) implementation of M
21:29:47 <mauke> I wouldn't be surprised if M were related to mutex or something
21:31:15 <monochrom> M may be "message".
21:32:00 <monochrom> The semantics of MVar is that of a message box, especially what with its "empty" state.
21:32:13 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> If I where to draw a square with the corners, TVar, MVar, TMVar, am I correct that the forth corner would be IORef?
21:33:47 <mauke> where is STRef?
21:34:00 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> Phew.
21:34:03 <EvanR> M in MVar could also mean multi-threaded, though they other ones are also, MVar came first
21:34:22 <monochrom> Yeah I is immutable. Or rather, "final" in Java. Initialize then never change.
21:34:50 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> I kinda assumend the M stands for maybe because it is basically a TVar (Maybe a)
21:35:13 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> But that’s probably also not true.^^
21:35:22 <monochrom> But the 4 corners reminds me of a Chinese noodle place. It's mathematically beautiful, the menu.
21:35:22 <EvanR> having a bunch of differently named things be different is great
21:36:01 <EvanR> maralorn: that's a good retroactive definition for MVar
21:36:47 <EvanR> multi-meaning var
21:37:41 <monochrom> On the front side it has all 8 of: noodle with powerset{beef balls, dumplings, wontons}
21:38:09 <monochrom> Then on the back side it has all 7 of: powerset{beef balls, dumplings, wontons} minus the empty set.
21:38:39 <monochrom> All 15 non-empty combinations are covered!
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21:39:02 <monochrom> One might say: The Noodle Hypercube.
21:40:35 <monochrom> OK I'm tracking down The Awkward Squad paper to see what it says about the M!
21:41:34 <EvanR> at least two explanations are given
21:41:52 <EvanR> which is appropriate
21:42:37 <monochrom> Hrm it doesn't say.
21:44:53 <EvanR> I'm thinking ot the Concurrent Haskell paper
21:45:03 <cheater> monochrom: see that's because you hate programmers
21:46:23 <EvanR> wth that paper also doesn't say
21:47:20 <monochrom> I am not sure whether it is programmers or it is illogical "intuitive" people that I hate.
21:47:50 <probie> Save energy on classification and just hate "people"
21:48:44 <monochrom> Well today is my nice day. I will do that tomorrow. >:)
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21:53:36 <monochrom> You know, I never ran into that exit "problem" because I never bothered to type out "exit" in any enviornment. I just pressed ctrl-d.
21:55:26 <monochrom> In a shell I just press ctrl-d. In ghci I just press ctrl-d. In smlnj I just press ctrl-d. In racket console mode I just press ctrl-d. In swi-prolog I just press ctrl-d. The few times I'm at a python prompt I just press ctrl-d.
21:56:03 <monochrom> Why would anyone type out "e" "x" "i" "t" <enter>? Do they hate themselves?
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21:56:34 <monochrom> In nslookup I also just press ctrl-d. And not even need to remember whether it's "quit" or "exit".
21:56:59 <monochrom> OK I know why. Because they're on Windows where ctrl-d doesn't work.
21:57:18 <monochrom> OK then why would programmers use Windows? Do they hate themselves?
21:57:30 <monochrom> OK I'll stop.
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21:58:14 <probie> The two big reasons are because they get issued the corporate standard laptop, or because their target environment is windows
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22:03:22 <monochrom> My students are smarter than all of the above. They just click the close-window button. :)
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22:08:18 <int-e> monochrom: Why would anyone type out '"' 'e' '"' ' ' '"' 'x' '"' ' ' '"' 'i' '"' ' ' '"' 't' '"'? Do they hate themselves?
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22:08:33 <monochrom> haha
22:08:54 <dolio> monochrom probably wrote a Haskell program to generate the text.
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22:10:13 <ncf> > fix (unwords . map show)
22:10:15 <lambdabot> "*Exception: <<loop>>
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22:11:05 <int-e> > text . unwords . map show . unwords . map (show . (:[])) $ "exit"
22:11:06 <lambdabot> '"' 'e' '"' ' ' '"' 'x' '"' ' ' '"' 'i' '"' ' ' '"' 't' '"'
22:11:33 <ncf> :t text
22:11:34 <lambdabot> String -> Doc
22:12:13 <monochrom> It means using the fact that the Show instance of Doc does not add quoting or escaping.
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22:12:33 <monochrom> putStrLn : ghci :: text : lambdabot
22:12:53 <int-e> > var "silly fancy version"
22:12:54 <lambdabot> silly fancy version
22:13:16 <monochrom> Ugh now that's fancy and silly, yeah :)
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22:15:23 <ncf> sometimes i wonder about like, "fixed points with initial value"
22:15:48 <ncf> it feels like i should be able to apply that function to "exit" repeatedly and take some sort of colimit to get an infinite string instead of a <<loop>>
22:16:05 <monochrom> Does that mean "iterate f x0" and hope that something stabilizes down the road?
22:16:15 <ncf> would have to somehow add the information that the input string is a substring of the output string
22:16:19 <ncf> as in subsequence
22:17:17 <ncf> i guess one way would be to say "the nth character of the fixed point only depends on the first m applications"
22:17:37 <int-e> > fix (('\'' :) . tail . unwords . map show)
22:17:38 <lambdabot> "'\\'' '\\\\' '\\'' '\\'' ' ' '\\'' '\\\\' '\\\\' '\\'' ' ' '\\'' '\\\\' '\\...
22:17:54 <monochrom> iterate show "exit" may get you started.
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22:24:55 <ncf> so like formally the space of strings on a given alphabet has the structure of a category for the "is subsequence of" relation, and if your quoting function is nice enough there is a ω-diagram that starts at "exit" and then repeatedly applies quoting; what kind of strings do we need to add for this diagram to have a sequential colimit?
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22:26:14 <EvanR> so you want to exit the program immediately, first let me introduce you to some category theory
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22:27:04 <ncf> i guess the colimit would look like "^ωe"^ω"^ωx"^ω...
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22:29:38 <ncf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_language 👀
22:30:12 <ncf> hm those are just functions from ℕ, so that wouldn't work
22:30:26 <ncf> i seem to recall there was a notion of infinite words based on trees or something
22:31:25 <Inst> hummm, i'm trying to reach the maintainer of hackage's TinyFileDialogs wrapper on Github
22:31:38 <Inst> if he doesn't respond, do I have justification to fork it and upload a derivative?
22:31:46 <EvanR> is it called omega language because as soon as you speak an infinite word it's the last word you'll ever say
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22:31:50 <Inst> Not sure if anyone else uses the package, since tfd imo is pretty fundamental as a capability
22:32:15 <ncf> you could supertask your way out of it
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22:32:35 <Inst> *attempt to say
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22:40:07 <ncf> (ah, i was thinking of "generalised words" in "Isomorphism of regular trees and words")
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22:41:22 <ncf> (and "An algorithm for the solution of fixed-point equations for infinite words")
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22:44:19 <geekosaur> Inst, you always have approval to upload a derivative. you need approval to take over a package
22:45:09 <Inst> no, but courtesy
22:45:24 <Inst> i'm actually unsure when TFD developed security holes, it was something that came up like 2 years ago
22:45:37 <Inst> or even if it did
22:45:38 <Inst> :(
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22:50:50 <Inst> thanks :)
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23:09:21 ncf . o O ( quoting is a well-pointed endofunctor )
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23:23:39 <masaeedu> maralorn: it might be worth considering not keeping the log in memory at all (the term "log" suggests you're not reading it to decide what to do subsequently)
23:25:37 <haskellbridge> <m​aralorn> Well I want to display the log or parts of it.
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23:29:49 <masaeedu> I see. I imagined you don't access the log within whatever computation is logging: instead something else reads the log after the computation is complete.
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23:51:10 <monochrom> ncf: What is the well-pointed part? Does it just mean I have both fmap and pure?

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