Logs on 2024-04-18 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:56 | <Inst> | data.text can't convert to CString directly? ;_; |
| 00:01:14 | <Inst> | here we go, Data.Text.Foreign |
| 00:02:05 | <geekosaur> | you're not supposed to make assumptions about the internal encoding, and you have to specify an encoding to use when going to CString |
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| 00:04:29 | <monochrom> | Yeah what would "convert" mean? For example convert λ to what C string? |
| 00:04:36 | <Inst> | ah i see |
| 00:06:01 | <monochrom> | Non-programmers and generally non-tech-savvy people can be understood to think in terms of DWIM and generally lack technical imagination. |
| 00:06:20 | <monochrom> | But programmers, of all people, are not supposed to afford to be that sloppy. |
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| 00:11:54 | <Inst> | bytestring doesn't even come with a Foreign interface |
| 00:12:27 | <monochrom> | Should it? |
| 00:13:09 | <Inst> | "Represents sequences of bytes or 8 bit characters" |
| 00:13:35 | <Inst> | C string type is just a null-terminated array and it's platform specific as to its encoding |
| 00:13:35 | <monochrom> | packCString useAsCString etc covers most cases. |
| 00:13:36 | <geekosaur> | ByteString is best thought of as raw binary |
| 00:14:14 | <geekosaur> | any encoding is specified by whatever you're feeding it to/from, and may be specified by a protocol or out of band or etc. |
| 00:14:15 | <monochrom> | There are unsafe ones in Data.ByteString.Unsafe if you want fast and you code correctly. |
| 00:14:37 | <Inst> | it's just annoying because Foreign.C.String has a very pleasant interface, except that strings aren't supposed to be good for performance due to being a linked list of chars |
| 00:15:53 | <monochrom> | I'm beginning to wonder if you are just complaining that the word "Foreign" does not appear in the function names. |
| 00:17:08 | <masaeedu> | It's a bit elitist to assume non-programmers lack technical imagination... |
| 00:17:38 | <monochrom> | I did not mean assume. I meant understandable if some of them don't. |
| 00:18:07 | <masaeedu> | Oh, I see |
| 00:18:07 | <Inst> | no, in this case, i simply wasn't familiar with C encoding of strings |
| 00:18:34 | <geekosaur> | neither is C 😛 |
| 00:19:02 | <Inst> | C doesn't even have a true array type, just a pointer, an increment based on type, and some sugar |
| 00:19:21 | <monochrom> | That's actually wrong. |
| 00:20:15 | <monochrom> | inb4 "in this case, I simply wasn't familiar with the C standard" |
| 00:20:31 | <geekosaur> | is anyone really? |
| 00:21:01 | <monochrom> | Well, sure, no, but I happened to read that section about how "int foo[4]" and "int foo[5]" are different types. |
| 00:22:16 | <Inst> | i like monochrom being appropriately harsh |
| 00:22:17 | <monochrom> | If you accept laziness, I can legitimately claim that I am familiar with it, because I will read the relevant sections on demand! >:) |
| 00:22:49 | <geekosaur> | …which leaves "comprehens"… |
| 00:22:53 | <geekosaur> | -s+d |
| 00:23:15 | <monochrom> | https://ro-che.info/ccc/11 |
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| 00:33:25 | <Inst> | what's wrong with reading the C standards? |
| 00:35:00 | <geekosaur> | not comprehensible by mortals |
| 00:36:18 | <Inst> | i'm skimming through it now, it's only 757 pages, which, while long, is still manageable |
| 00:36:40 | <geekosaur> | also, Apr 16 20:54:53 <c_wraith> "Developers who manage to figure out what the standard actually means are frequently appalled." truer words never spoken of C |
| 00:39:01 | <Inst> | tho core is only 186 pages |
| 00:39:04 | <Inst> | rest is library documentation |
| 00:39:28 | <monochrom> | Yeah I was appalled that it does not let me examine the 4 bytes of a 32-bit int by union { int i; char b[4]; } |
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| 00:40:12 | <geekosaur> | that one doesn't surprise me; it's a hack that happens to work on many common architectures |
| 00:40:24 | <geekosaur> | and always was |
| 00:41:08 | <monochrom> | There was one year when I taught that hack to students. Subsequently I saw you guys here mentioning that it is not kosher, so I retracted it. |
| 00:42:52 | <monochrom> | Subsequently I only taught fwrite to a file and then just examining the bytes in the file. >:) |
| 00:43:27 | <Inst> | by the way, why are people using c2hs instead of just capi? |
| 00:44:07 | <monochrom> | I think they are orthogonal? You could use both? They solve two unrelated problems? |
| 00:44:08 | <geekosaur> | because with capi you still have to write the bindings; c2hs does that for you, when it works |
| 00:45:07 | <yushyin> | "when it works" I really feel that |
| 00:45:31 | <geekosaur> | capi deals with making function calls via C instead of directly via asm. c2hs writes bindings for you; those might be via capi or via asm |
| 00:46:20 | <Inst> | in terms of space and time, which is better? |
| 00:47:48 | <geekosaur> | asm is faster when it works but most functions expect to be called via C, and as such often make use of preprocessor macros and the like which asm won't know about |
| 00:48:09 | <jackdk> | There are important correctness benefits to using CApiFFI, particularly around things like variadic functions and exotic calling conventions, see https://www.haskell.org/ghc/blog/20210709-capi-usage.html |
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| 00:49:11 | <geekosaur> | capi pretty much only exists because moving to generating asm directly instead of compiling via C broke the original ffi spec in important ways |
| 00:49:46 | <geekosaur> | so capi brings back how it used to work (and arguably how the spec expects it to work, although it's not documented as such) |
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| 01:16:02 | <Inst> | with regards to bytestring, it seems that the unsafe functions will create data that's not garbage collected? So how should bytestring-generated data be GCed? |
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| 01:17:10 | <Inst> | and actually in the standard bytestring interface, there are provisions for converting bytestring to cstring and vice versa |
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| 01:22:02 | <geekosaur> | if you mean unsafePackCString, the point is that there is no way to automatically know how to dispose of it, and indeed it may be a pointer to a C `static` buffer which can't be freed at all |
| 01:22:37 | <geekosaur> | if you know that it came from C malloc, use unsafePackMallocCString |
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| 01:24:12 | <Inst> | thanks for your patience |
| 01:24:16 | <geekosaur> | you would normally use unsafePackCString when receiving a C string as part of some data from a C library, where its lifetime is controlled by calling some deinitialization function |
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| 01:24:51 | <geekosaur> | (and you probably don't want to assign that function as a finalizer because it would tear down more than just that string) |
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| 01:26:36 | <geekosaur> | so it's your duty to play along with what the C API requires |
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| 03:05:24 | <Inst> | huh, was never aware of this |
| 03:05:25 | <Inst> | https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/package_qualified_imports.html |
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| 06:42:44 | <fixmyname> | hey party people |
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| 06:58:47 | <danse-nr3> | \o |
| 06:59:02 | <danse-nr3> | oops they went. Not enough party i guess |
| 07:01:30 | <tomsmeding> | they could only have been disappointed anyway |
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| 07:34:10 | <jackdk> | can't have "functional programming" without "fun" |
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| 07:43:19 | <ncf> | monochrom: fmap and pure, and fmap pure == pure (Fη = ηF) |
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| 07:50:39 | <probie> | jackdk: Haskell manages to have "functional programming" without "fun, unlike ocaml or standard ml |
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| 07:58:43 | <danse-nr3> | what does `fun` do in ocaml? I also think common lisp missed an opportunity defining `defun` instead of `fun` |
| 08:01:35 | <probie> | It's how they spell "lambda" in ocaml. In standard ml, it begins a function definition |
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| 08:02:04 | <danse-nr3> | i see. I like the \ though |
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| 08:24:22 | <danse-nr3> | meh hating o <$> g <$> h being frowned upon. Seems nice and handy |
| 08:26:16 | <danse-nr3> | huh i meant o <$> g <*> h |
| 08:26:55 | <danse-nr3> | with g and h being (-> a) |
| 08:30:15 | <danse-nr3> | actually it needs to be (a -> b), and i need another coffee... |
| 08:34:13 | <probie> | Make it less confusing by using the exact same monad, but wrapped in a newtype :p `runReader (o <$> reader g <*> reader h)` |
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| 08:34:35 | <danse-nr3> | XD |
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| 08:36:07 | <probie> | > runReader ((/) <$> reader sum <*> reader (fromIntegral . length)) [1.0..5.0] |
| 08:36:09 | <lambdabot> | 3.0 |
| 08:36:26 | <danse-nr3> | progress! |
| 08:38:04 | <probie> | I think the issue is that to people who have never seen the idiom before, it's not obvious what the `Applicative` instance actually is |
| 08:38:48 | <danse-nr3> | right well ... is that not an issue about /anything/? |
| 08:40:16 | <danse-nr3> | (probably /everything/ would be better english...) |
| 08:42:38 | <danse-nr3> | i still recall the first time i saw this. Yes, i was a bit "wut!?" at the beginning but i found it clever, i knew what it meant i just took 5 or 10 minutes to understand how haskell supported the meaning |
| 08:43:47 | <danse-nr3> | (-> a) instaces always seemed imperscrutable to me, but using this seems a good way to get acquainted with the concept |
| 08:45:00 | <tomsmeding> | (there's no "per" in that word) |
| 08:45:03 | <c_wraith> | pedantically... ((->) a) instances |
| 08:45:22 | <tomsmeding> | I'm salty that I cannot write (a ->) |
| 08:45:29 | <c_wraith> | type lambdas!! |
| 08:45:29 | <tomsmeding> | same for (w,) |
| 08:45:39 | <tomsmeding> | -XTypeTupleSections |
| 08:45:47 | <danse-nr3> | cheers tomsmeding |
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| 09:25:15 | <kuribas> | there are no type level sections? |
| 09:25:27 | <kuribas> | :k (Int ->) |
| 09:25:28 | <lambdabot> | error: parse error on input ‘)’ |
| 09:25:37 | <kuribas> | :k ((->) Int) |
| 09:25:38 | <lambdabot> | * -> * |
| 09:26:12 | <kuribas> | We need a language where type level and term leven are the same ;-) |
| 09:26:25 | <danse-nr3> | also value sections require parenthesis at times to work with the syntax |
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| 11:39:49 | <danse-nr3> | ... the more the test suite grows, the more the runtime logic shrinks. Feels like very counterproductive work |
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| 12:01:31 | <tomsmeding> | danse-nr3: does runtime logic shrink when the test suite grows? |
| 12:01:38 | <tomsmeding> | that would be the greatest technique ever |
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| 12:48:43 | <danse-nr3> | huh i don't get your joke tomsmeding |
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| 12:55:03 | <danse-nr3> | oh probably you meant to consider test logic as runtime one. Well then i do not have a term to describe code that is not tests |
| 12:55:50 | <tomsmeding> | danse-nr3: I interpreted your "runtime logic" as "the regular non-test code" |
| 12:56:02 | <tomsmeding> | making that shrink is typically a good thing |
| 12:56:12 | <tomsmeding> | shorter code that still fulfills specs is good |
| 12:56:26 | <tomsmeding> | hence my response to your statement: if writing tests makes that happen, then let's write more tests! |
| 12:56:47 | <danse-nr3> | right, that was my intention, but that's nothing new nor special |
| 12:57:25 | <danse-nr3> | (and reducing lines of code still debated if you consider "productivity" unfortunately) |
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| 12:58:39 | <tomsmeding> | wait you were serious? |
| 12:58:43 | <tomsmeding> | my subtext was "surely not!" |
| 12:59:09 | <tomsmeding> | so that was the communication confusion, I thought you were being sarcastic :p |
| 12:59:16 | <tomsmeding> | hence you thought I was |
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| 12:59:57 | <tomsmeding> | writing tests does a lot of things, some of them good for code quality, but one thing it does _not_ do is shrink your code, as far as I know |
| 13:00:10 | tomsmeding | has a meeting |
| 13:00:21 | <danse-nr3> | i was serious, it happens to me that adding more test cases i realise about a smarter logic. Eventually such reduction can become embarrassing |
| 13:01:35 | <mauke> | step 1: write all the code. step 2: write tests. step 3: fix tests by deleting all the bad code. step 4: obtain short, correct program. |
| 13:02:14 | <danse-nr3> | i get terribly bored adding tests /after/. <3 test-driven dev |
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| 13:56:33 | <Inst> | wait |
| 13:56:52 | <Inst> | RealWorld# never had any existence in Cmm back when Haskell was compiled to C, right? |
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| 14:13:17 | <EvanR> | RealWorld :( |
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| 14:15:11 | <dminuoso> | Inst: What do you mean by "back when Haskell was compiled to C". |
| 14:15:26 | <dminuoso> | -fvia-c is still a thing. |
| 14:15:39 | <dminuoso> | Or.. is it? Im not sure. |
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| 14:17:29 | <Inst> | apparently C has zero bit bitfields supported |
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| 14:17:42 | <Inst> | i was wondering if RealWorld# was a zero bit bitfield once upon a time |
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| 14:39:40 | <dolio> | I'm not certain, but I would guess not. |
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| 14:53:10 | <geekosaur> | dminuoso, I think it was removed some versions back, but if it wasn't then it emits a warning and uses -fasm |
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| 14:57:48 | <raehik> | Am I able to set -Wall, but remove one warning? |
| 14:58:28 | <dolio> | Try -Wno-whatever after -Wall. |
| 14:59:16 | <raehik> | Ahhhh thank you, that did work. It doesn't show up on ghci completion but sorted it. cheers :) |
| 14:59:26 | <c_wraith> | -fvia-c was removed, but you can still build GHC to produce C code for bootstrapping. It requires an entire different build of GHC now, and it doesn't produce much in the way of optimized code. |
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| 19:08:39 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> Does anyone already know on what days the Haskell symposium will take place this year? https://icfp24.sigplan.org/home/haskellsymp-2024, Since the Haskell Implementors Workshop is on Monday the 2nd does it make sense to expect that the Haskell symposium is at the other end of the ICFP, on Friday/Saturday? |
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| 19:11:38 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> Ah, yeah. It seems to be that way every time in the last years. |
| 19:11:53 | <haskellbridge> | <maralorn> HIW at the start, symposium at the end. |
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| 19:19:18 | <Inst> | re: monochrom: TBH, every language standard that's reasonably updated is a godforsaken mess |
| 19:19:51 | <Inst> | i.e, html5 "80% of our features are legacy and/or no one actually supports them, so don't use them" |
| 19:20:02 | <Inst> | or alternatively "div should be used as an element of last resort, except if you're using react" |
| 19:21:16 | <EvanR> | "reasonably updated" |
| 19:21:29 | <EvanR> | because if it was not an absolute mess, you wouldn't need to update it? xD |
| 19:22:14 | <Inst> | :D |
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| 19:29:30 | <demon-cat> | Really new to Haskell and so I am the noobiest noob, but I notices a deep sense of peace comeo over me when learning some basics. Does anyone ever feel that? |
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| 19:34:05 | <monochrom> | I felt deep sense of rationality. |
| 19:34:13 | <demon-cat> | Nice. |
| 19:34:50 | <demon-cat> | I think my experience was sharpened as I was having to do some python programming and a felt really dirty in contrast. |
| 19:36:04 | <demon-cat> | I do a lot of numerical based programmming, like stochastic processing, data viz, analysis etc. I like doing this in Julia, then R. But for a long time I have been wanting to have some reason that makes me focus on Haskell, its been tricky to start |
| 19:36:08 | <demon-cat> | Is this common? |
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| 19:50:47 | <bsima> | its always tricky to start learning something new, you're a beginner again |
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| 19:53:48 | <EvanR> | coming from data-based languages you might have an easier time than say coming from imperative programming |
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| 20:07:58 | <dmj`> | haskell is therapeutic |
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| 21:11:57 | <demon-cat> | EvanR: when you say data-based languages, do you refer to the fact that say in R you primarily dealing with data and not necessarily changning the state of the machine underneath? |
| 21:12:41 | <EvanR> | you're primarily dealing with data |
| 21:12:55 | <EvanR> | you can primarily deal with data in C or C++ but it's a pain in the ass |
| 21:14:15 | <Rembane> | Is Clojure one of those? |
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| 21:14:38 | <EvanR> | yeah clojure is big on immutable data |
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| 21:17:10 | <Rembane> | Cool. I've heard of data-driven programming in the context of Clojure and associated to data-based languages from that. |
| 21:19:39 | <EvanR> | they have an immutable database... datomic |
| 21:20:02 | <Rembane> | I've heard much good about it. Haven't used it for anything though. |
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| 21:20:20 | <EvanR> | needs more types |
| 21:20:40 | <Rembane> | Yup |
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| 21:39:10 | <yin> | are array languages an data-based languages? |
| 21:39:58 | <yin> | s/an// |
| 21:40:00 | <EvanR> | depends. Is an array data |
| 21:41:02 | <yin> | in what sense? |
| 21:41:16 | <yin> | (i just got online, may be missing context) |
| 21:41:53 | <EvanR> | all these words are open ended |
| 21:42:31 | <monochrom> | What is the definition of "data-based language"? |
| 21:42:55 | <monochrom> | But yeah I have long denounced "paradigms". |
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| 21:55:44 | <probie> | yin: If you mean languages like APL, K, and J, I'd say they're at least as "data-based" as Clojure is |
| 21:59:25 | <yin> | yes |
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| 22:44:01 | <duncan> | specifically though APL's thing is arrays, is Clojure designed around arrays in the same way? |
| 22:44:33 | <duncan> | you can call a lot of things 'data-based', but it's sort of selling APL short if you have to generalise it… |
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| 22:45:58 | <geekosaur> | Clojure's designed around hashes, no? |
| 22:49:07 | <monochrom> | This is just both left wing people and right wing people claiming they are about freedom and/or liberty all over again. |
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| 23:15:40 | <sm> | @where+ static-musl-build-posts https://www.extrema.is/blog/2022/03/24/ghc-musl-part-1 |
| 23:15:41 | <lambdabot> | Nice! |
| 23:18:15 | <probie> | geekosaur: when you say "designed around hashes" do you mean actual hashes, or do you mean maps/dictionaries/associative arrays/etc.? |
| 23:18:59 | <geekosaur> | the latter |
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| 23:21:55 | <c_wraith> | I think clojure tends towards HAMTs. But really, what's the difference? |
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| 23:26:15 | <probie> | c_wraith: one is a number produced by a hashing function, and the other is a collection, and I'll never forgive Ruby for popularising the name "hash" for "hashmaps" |
| 23:26:52 | <c_wraith> | HAMTs absolutely use hashes. that's what the H stands for. |
| 23:27:07 | <monochrom> | #hashtags |
| 23:27:43 | <probie> | I think one of us might be misinterpreting the thread of conversation here |
| 23:28:17 | <monochrom> | No, I'm just making dad jokes. |
| 23:29:34 | <monochrom> | But Ruby does a lot of unforgivable things. |
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| 23:30:13 | <probie> | I wanted to know if geekosaur was asking about whether Clojure was designed around the "output of hashing functions" or whether it was designed some kind of associative array, because whilst I assumed he meant the latter, Clojure refers to them as maps, so I wanted to confirm |
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| 23:31:24 | <probie> | s/designed some/designed around some/ |
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| 23:31:50 | <geekosaur> | hashes, maps, associative arrays, whatever |
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| 23:45:44 | <probie> | geekosaur: I'm not sure if this answers the question of whether clojure is designed around hashes, but; idiomatic clojure makes heavy use of maps, however, if you removed them, you'd still have a perfectly usable programming language (although some core macros and functions would need to change from taking maps to taking association lists as done in common lisp) |
| 23:46:26 | <monochrom> | I think it's a good answer. |
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| 23:53:28 | <tcard> | @sm If you are looking into building static executables using Alpine/musl, you might want to check out https://gitlab.com/benz0li/ghc-musl , which is well maintained. |
| 23:53:28 | lambdabot | puts on her slapping gloves, and slaps If you are looking into building static executables using Alpine/musl, you might want to check out https://gitlab.com/benz0li/ghc-musl , which is well |
| 23:53:28 | <lambdabot> | maintained. |
| 23:53:49 | <tcard> | (I have not had time to start contributing to this project yet, but I plan on doing so. My understanding is that Utku is deprecating his project in favor of this one.) |
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| 23:55:32 | <masaeedu> | demon-cat: I can definitely relate. when it works out well, Haskell programming can be quite relaxing |
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All times are in UTC on 2024-04-18.