Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-04-21 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:01:10 × helle quits (~helle@user/meow/Helle) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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01:12:50 × tri quits (~tri@ool-18bc2e74.dyn.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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01:20:17 × tremon quits (~tremon@83.80.159.219) (Quit: getting boxed in)
01:20:55 <Inst> does readerT (>>) matter?
01:21:53 <Inst> I mean, it's essentially a coding error to use >> in (->) r or ReaderT monad, but does it matter that it's defined as f *> g = (id <$ f) <*> g?
01:23:50 <geekosaur> >> needs to exist for do notation to work
01:23:58 × harveypwca quits (~harveypwc@2601:246:d080:b40:1889:d9bf:2dd8:b288) (Quit: Leaving)
01:24:34 <c_wraith> it definitely matters for ReaderT. It indicates a problem with Reader
01:24:35 <geekosaur> (whether it should or even can do something sensible is another question)
01:24:53 <Inst> maybe I misunderstand things ?:(
01:24:58 <c_wraith> But that's mostly because >> For Identity doesn't do anything
01:25:17 <c_wraith> ReaderT just gives you the >> for the underlying type
01:25:41 <Inst> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.1.0/docs/src/GHC.Base.html#line-1133
01:26:03 <Inst> there is no definition for *>
01:26:25 <c_wraith> there's a default definition in Applicative
01:26:39 <Inst> which should drop it to https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.1.0/docs/src/GHC.Base.html#%2A%3E
01:26:42 <Inst> which looks inefficient
01:29:15 <Inst> (id <$ a1) <*> a2 <===> const id . a1 <*> a2 <===> \u -> (const id . a1) u ( a2 u) <===> \u -> id (a2 u) <===> a2
01:30:57 <Inst> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/transformers-0.6.1.1/docs/src/Control.Monad.Trans.Reader.html#line-158
01:31:52 <c_wraith> I would posit that the performance of something it's an error to use doesn't matter
01:33:15 × _________ quits (~nobody@user/noodly) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
01:33:49 <Inst> what would the cost of _ *> g = g be in base, for function monad?
01:34:17 <Inst> I can imagine a case where you're using polymorphic monadic code, and when it instances to ReaderT identity it'd cause an issue
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01:42:15 <Inst> yeah, you're right, in ReaderT Identity, the identity would take over and just do const on *>
01:44:54 <Inst> Identity doesn't have *> or <* in its instance either :(
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01:45:43 <Inst> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.1.0/docs/src/Data.Functor.Identity.html#line-122
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09:44:23 <ph88> How can i use OverloadedRecordDot with qualified imports for the field accessor?
09:47:53 <tomsmeding> you write the module qualifier in very small text above the dot
09:51:26 <tomsmeding> the documentation ( https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/latest/docs/users_guide/exts/overloaded_record_dot.html#extension-OverloadedRecordDot ) states that the projection expressions are desugared to getField ( https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.1.0/docs/GHC-Records.html ), which itself is just a type class and hence allows you to qualify anything, but it seems like the syntax of
09:51:28 <tomsmeding> OverloadedRecordDot does not
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11:45:43 <ph88> hahaah "in very small text above the dot" if only if i would write out my code on paper xD
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12:20:09 tomsmeding . o O ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigram_(programming_language) )
12:20:22 <tomsmeding> (the layout in the first code example is borked, the first line needs 5 spaces before the first '(' )
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12:46:29 <ph88> How can i unwrap 2 monads with do-syntax? example https://bpa.st/B5ZQ
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12:50:34 <int-e> @unmtl ExceptT e m a
12:50:34 <lambdabot> m (Either e a)
12:51:23 <int-e> (Basically you don't, but you could use the the ExceptT monad transformer to accomplish what you probably want. And it'll be isomorphic to the m (Either a b) you already have)
12:54:43 <ph88> would be nice to just make that arrow a bit longer `<-` into `<--` for every additional unwrap add another dash :D
12:57:28 <int-e> It's not at all clear what that means in general.
12:59:31 <int-e> (Recall that do notation is syntax sugar. It's worth pondering what that hypothetical <-- arrow would desugar to, if anything.)
13:00:00 <int-e> @undo do x <- b; c x
13:00:00 <lambdabot> b >>= \ x -> c x
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13:20:48 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> int-e: I think he meant as in more syntax sugar.
13:20:48 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> (`b :: m (n a)`) `do { xs <- b; x <-- b; return (xs, x) }` -> `b >>= \xs -> (b >>=' \x -> (return (xs, x))` with `>>='` being some other bind with the type `m (n a) -> (a -> m (n b)) -> m (n b)`
13:20:50 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> however it becomes clear that this does not work since not all monads compose together into another monad
13:20:57 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> does not work in some situations*
13:23:58 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> this can be simulated though, if `b :: Compose m n a` and `Monad (Compose m n)` then (I think) the above do notation can be simulated by this:
13:23:58 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> `do { xs <- fmap pure b; x <- b; return (xs, x) }`
13:27:39 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> i meant `do { xs <- Compose (fmap pure (getCompose b)); x <- b; return (xs, x)}`
13:27:45 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> uhh...
13:30:24 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> ph88: anyways not all two monads compose to another monad, and I suggest looking into monad transformers
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13:30:55 <ski> idioms compose
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13:31:48 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> how do I define an idiom in Haskell code :P
13:32:14 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> do I use literate Haskell for that
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13:35:03 <ski> "idiom", in this context, is a synonym for "applicative functor"
13:35:28 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> ah
13:36:00 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> yeah applicative functors compose, then you can use applicative dos but it's limited
13:36:26 <ncf> you could say "idiom" is an idiom at this point
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13:45:19 <ski> "Idioms: Applicatie Programming with Effects" (functional pearl) by Conor McBride,Ross Paterson at <http://strictlypositive.org/Idiom.pdf> ; <https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/2004-July/014315.html>,<https://wiki.haskell.org/Applicative_functor>
13:45:50 <ski> (two more versions of the paper, at <http://strictlypositive.org/>)
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15:24:04 <ph88> i​rregularsphere i imagine that would only type check for those situations that they do compose
15:24:53 <ph88> how many functional pearls are there ?
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16:06:07 <[exa]> ph88: they get published in small count with each ICFP and JFP issue so I'd say a few dozen at this point
16:06:16 <ph88> nice :>
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16:22:12 <monochrom> Haha it's official, Ningning Xie declares that LYAH is a great book. >:)
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16:40:26 <Guest13> hi, I have a beginner question on optimising a recursive function. for context, I am trying to complete aoc2023 day 8. this is my function, which runs correctly on the smaller instances but hangs for some time on the larger graph:
16:40:26 <Guest13> recurseSol :: Graph -> Int -> [String] -> String -> Int
16:40:27 <Guest13> recurseSol graph depth state (i:is) = case end of
16:40:27 <Guest13>   True -> depth
16:40:28 <Guest13>   otherwise -> recurseSol graph (depth+1) next is
16:40:28 <Guest13>   where next = map (\node -> if (i == 'L') then fst (graph M.! node) else snd (graph M.! node)) state
16:40:29 <Guest13>         end = (==0) . length $ filter (\[_,_,c] -> c/='Z') state
16:40:29 <Guest13> at each step I check if I have reached the final states. does passing graph in at each step make this very inefficient or is it store as I do not change it? is there a way to make Haskell calculate the value of the state at each step, as it can only know it has reached the end this way. thank you for any help
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16:41:28 <Guest13> also, I would appreciate if anyone can point out some obvious improvements to the code (both efficiency and how it is written)
16:43:41 <monochrom> graph is passed by pointer and not cloned, it's only O(1).
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16:45:07 <monochrom> "length xs == 0" takes time proportional to length xs and is a dumb way to say "null xs" which takes only O(1) time.
16:45:29 <Guest13> '=D
16:45:45 <ncf> this can be compressed even further using all
16:45:46 <ncf> :t all
16:45:47 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> Bool) -> t a -> Bool
16:46:02 <Guest13> ahhh
16:46:32 <Guest13> idk why I did it like that I will use all
16:47:43 <ncf> IIRC this is one of the first problems that required actual thought, so a naive solution like that isn't gonna work
16:48:08 <ncf> if i still remember correctly, solving this required making assumptions about the input that weren't contained in the problem text, so... good luck
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16:49:00 <Guest13> ok back to drawing board I guess. I was gonna step through the instructions but it is taking some time
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16:49:07 <Guest13> I thought my code was problem
16:49:37 <int-e> the answer is rather big
16:49:45 <Guest13> but I need to solve it differently, maybe by figuring out like a phase difference between each ending state and then working out when they will meet
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16:50:25 <int-e> ncf: I wouldn't say "required" for this particular one, but there was a huge shortcut because of special input properties.
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16:51:10 <ncf> right
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16:53:23 <c_wraith> I didn't use the shortcut, I did it the "hard" way. Which is really the same thing, except with a little more arithmetic.
16:53:55 <Guest13> I think if I used HashMap it would also be a LOT faster xd
16:54:03 <Guest13> just realised it was a treetop by default
16:54:37 <c_wraith> Guest13: that's almost completely irrelevant. I see that my solution was a 14-digit number. You're not iterating that high with any data structure.
16:55:33 <int-e> ncf: which was funny because I wrote code for part 2 on autopilot without thinking nearly as much as I should have, submitted the answer, which was correct, and then I started to think for real and asking why the fuck that worked.
16:55:50 <ncf> same
16:55:50 <Guest13> this happens anyway "*** Exception: stack overflow"
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16:56:35 <ski> (maybe forcing `depth' would help with that ?)
16:57:20 <int-e> it was 14 digits here too
16:57:24 <Guest13> this problem looks hard for me
16:57:47 <c_wraith> you can't brute-force it. You need to figure out how to break it down into subproblems and then combine the results from those subproblems.
16:58:17 <int-e> (and takes a fraction of a second to find)
16:58:26 <Guest13> yeah I was thinking of doing something like "how often does each ghost reach an end state"
16:58:37 <c_wraith> that's the right track.
16:58:41 <Guest13> and finding the gcd of that
16:58:54 <c_wraith> you'd want lcm, but they're nearly the same. :P
16:59:01 <Guest13> yeah that's what I mean lol
17:01:16 <Guest13> so it would be find when ghost reaches same state + same instruction
17:01:23 <Guest13> instruction number
17:03:21 <Guest13> idk this is hard but thank you for the help! I will think about the problem a bit more. I'm not sure about the input properties you mention but I think I can solve it anyway
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17:05:20 <ncf> so i guess the fully general problem looks like: you have a bunch of eventually periodic lists of numbers (steps until the next final state) and you want to find their smallest common cumulative sum-of-prefix
17:05:46 <ncf> with the "nice" case being when all lists are constant, in which case the answer is LCM
17:06:06 <c_wraith> the fully general version looks like "I have a bunch of cycles with various starting points, and I want to align them", which... works out to be CRT.
17:06:40 <int-e> It turns out to be NP-hard, but the actual instance isn't nasty at all.
17:06:56 <ncf> CRT isn't NP-hard, so one of you is lying
17:07:17 <int-e> it's *many* CRTs, one for each choice of final states in the loop
17:07:29 <int-e> and that number can be exponential
17:07:42 <ncf> ah i see
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17:08:50 <int-e> s/loop/loops/
17:10:45 <int-e> I never figured out whether the general version of day 20 is decidable or not.
17:13:22 <ncf> lol https://github.com/ncfavier/aoc/blob/main/src/2023/Day20.hs#L51
17:13:26 <ncf> can you tell i was pissed
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17:14:52 <ncf> ah yes that was the one you had to render as an SVG to actually understand what was going on
17:16:37 <int-e> I only looked at the fact that the final gate was a conjunction and remembered day 8 ;-)
17:17:44 <int-e> I also produced https://paste.debian.net/1314729/ but that was way later
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18:46:13 <[exa]> hm is kansas-lava (the vhdl thingy) officially dead dead, or is there some kind of a follow-up active project or so?
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20:04:18 <energizer> if there's a type class B then it's possible to make a subclass B x => C x but is it possible to do the reverse, make a superclass B x <= A x ?
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20:06:01 <ncf> you can have a (possibly overlapping) instance A x => B x
20:06:14 <c_wraith> energizer: no. The option that plays most nicely with Haskell's type system is to provide a default implementation of A in terms of B and give people nice tools to use that implementation quickly to create an instance of A for something that is an instance of B
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20:07:10 <energizer> are there any languages that have this feature?
20:11:10 <c_wraith> I can't think of any. It's a relatively difficult feature to use. The potential for ambiguity in resolution seems really bad for predictable code.
20:14:05 ski . o O ( "Supertyping Suggestion for Haskell" by jmeacham at <http://repetae.net/recent/out/supertyping.html> )
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20:36:57 <monochrom> Something like that is usually under the name "mixin" in other languages.
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20:37:59 <monochrom> But we don't have it in Haskell. It is why FAM was a change that broke backward compatibility.
20:40:05 <energizer> i dont see how mixins do that
20:40:55 <energizer> afaik mixins are just normal classes which you can add to your class while you're writing it, which is just the same as a normal class extension situation
20:42:50 <EvanR> just add two classes
20:43:07 <EvanR> is this simple addition associative and commutative
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20:45:04 <energizer> that works on types i write, it doesnt work on types already written
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21:01:44 <juri_> wow. stan has gained a maintainer.
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21:04:08 <juri_> tomjaguarpaw: Thanks! :)
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21:09:50 <c_wraith> energizer: My viewpoint is that a type should never implicitly be made an instance of a class. There should always be intent. In the end, it makes mistakes harder to make.
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21:13:28 <energizer> c_wraith: there are two kinds of problems i can think of. one is incorrectness: i superclass a class and define some methods that depend for their correctness on some property which doesn't actually hold. this could happen in haskell because it doesnt enforce laws but a more muscular type system could solve this. the other problem is method selection ambiguity, diamond problem kinda stuff. this seems harder, i'm not sure how to make this work
21:13:28 <energizer> automatically.
21:14:01 <c_wraith> there's a third class, which is "I explicitly did not want this type to be an instance of that"
21:15:12 <energizer> why would that be?
21:15:43 <c_wraith> In general, because you are making a type for one purpose, and using it anywhere else is wrong.
21:16:50 <energizer> what is the negative actual-consequence?
21:17:02 <c_wraith> depends on the use case.
21:17:13 <c_wraith> But mostly, it's about type safety
21:17:47 <c_wraith> When you create a set of interlocking types for safety in that system, it's not ideal when someone else can *accidentally* break it.
21:17:58 <c_wraith> It's one thing if they intentionally break it
21:18:06 <c_wraith> But accidentally? That's entirely different
21:18:15 <energizer> i dont see how this can happen if the laws are enforced
21:18:34 <c_wraith> I don't see how laws are relevant.
21:19:04 <c_wraith> "I don't want this to compile" is an orthogonal statement to "this can be made to compile in a way that follows some rules"
21:19:50 <geekosaur> you should not be able to add two ages, and you can't describe that as a law, only as absence of (in Haskell) a Num instance
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21:20:21 <energizer> finally, an example
21:20:56 <energizer> ok so how does adding ages accidentally happen in a world where there is superclassing
21:21:43 <c_wraith> You say "oh, all instances of Affine can be instances of Num!" and write a superclass for that, creating an instance of Num for your Age type.
21:22:05 <c_wraith> Making Age an instance of Affine makes perfect sense!
21:23:18 <energizer> "all instances of Affine can be instances of Num" is that a thing? i dont know what Num is supposed to mean tbh
21:23:28 <c_wraith> They *can* be.
21:23:41 <c_wraith> They almost universally *shouldn't* be.
21:24:27 <energizer> so you're telling me the laws of Num don't necessarily hold for Affine?
21:24:37 <c_wraith> No, I'm saying it's semantically incorrect
21:25:00 <c_wraith> You don't multiply two Times together. That's a meaningless operation.
21:25:12 <c_wraith> You don't multiply two points together. That's a meaningless operation.
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21:26:57 <EvanR> how would automatic Num instance for all Affine even work
21:27:00 <energizer> in haskell you can't write Affine t => Num t
21:27:12 <energizer> so i dont see what the problem is
21:27:16 <EvanR> how could you implement it
21:27:21 <energizer> exactly
21:27:23 <c_wraith> wrong question
21:27:34 <EvanR> energizer, but you were asking earlier for this feature in haskell
21:27:52 <EvanR> automatic superclassing
21:28:05 <c_wraith> The correct question is "does this example demonstrate to you why someone might desire to ensure their type is not an instance of a class?"
21:28:21 <c_wraith> Maybe it's not possible *here*
21:28:27 <c_wraith> But you will find some place where it is
21:28:34 <energizer> if A can't subclass B then B can't superclass A
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21:29:06 <EvanR> also the sentiment behind the boston haskell video "typeclasses vs the world" might apply here
21:29:32 <EvanR> which can be used to show why typeclasses should not be thought of like OOP
21:30:14 <EvanR> because typeclass instances form an automatically coherent system
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21:30:51 <EvanR> unlike multiple inheritance
21:31:55 <monochrom> Actually "class Affine t => Num t" does not cause any mentioned problem. It does not say "every Affine instance is a Num instance".
21:32:40 <c_wraith> well. It says "every type is a Num instance". So it sort of does. :P
21:33:18 <monochrom> No, I wrote "class ... Num t", not "instance ... Num t".
21:33:26 <c_wraith> oh, right
21:33:54 <EvanR> the feature would be like class Affine t <= Num t
21:33:59 <c_wraith> I mistook it for fake injecting a superclass, which is done by an instance looking like that.
21:34:57 <EvanR> given a Num instance make an Affine instance, though then the instance selection is messed up
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21:37:00 <c_wraith> in any case, the choice to not write an instance for a type should be something that's respected at least to the extent of requiring explicit action to add an instance to a type.
21:38:27 <tomsmeding> what would be the goal of adding a superclass to an existing class, even if it were possible?
21:38:46 <tomsmeding> ensure that you can use the methods of the new superclass for all types that are an instance of the existing class?
21:38:53 <energizer> yes
21:39:04 <tomsmeding> if that's possible, couldn't you just write those methods directly having just the existing class as context?
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21:39:47 <tomsmeding> i.e. if the existing is B and the new is A, then instead of `class B x <= A x where foo :: ...`, just write `foo :: B x => ...`
21:40:04 <tomsmeding> if B is enough to define foo, then, well, B is enough to define foo
21:40:15 tomsmeding is probably missing something
21:41:03 <tomsmeding> I guess that doesn't work if A also already exists and you insist that you want to use A's methods directly
21:41:30 <tomsmeding> but then you aren't declaring a class, because it already existed
21:41:55 <tomsmeding> so presumably that's not the situatino
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21:43:34 <energizer> answering all the questions requires more mental context than i'm able to pull together at the moment
21:44:35 <tomsmeding> :)
21:45:17 <monochrom> This is why one shouldn't casually suggest a new language feature.
21:45:59 <monochrom> This is why the sentiment "I don't need to have learned PL theory to think up a language feature, even a whole language" is dumb.
21:46:38 <tomsmeding> I mean, you can
21:46:50 monochrom looks at PHP
21:47:05 <tomsmeding> You should just be ready for people criticising your choices :p
21:47:14 <tomsmeding> Not every language needs to be well-designed
21:47:32 <monochrom> Great sysadmin. But his attitude against PLT is stupid. And it shows.
21:47:32 <tomsmeding> And one can learn to design languages by making mistakes
21:48:36 <monochrom> Well that's only the difference between "learn PL theory by lazy evaluation" and "learn PL theory by eager evaluation". It is not a difference between "don't learn" and "learn".
21:49:31 <energizer> i have thought up a language feature and had a chat about it, not sure what having learned PLT has to do with this
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21:51:20 <tomsmeding> monochrom: the most relevant difference is between "learning from a book" and "learning from people in #haskell"
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21:53:50 <cheater> is there a way to create a type such that users of my library have no way of creating a function that takes and returns that type?
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21:54:15 <cheater> like no way to write f :: MyType -> MyType
21:54:21 <dolio> No.
21:54:32 <dolio> Unless you don't export it or something.
21:54:57 <monochrom> You cannot stop people writing "f = id". But you can not-export the data constructors. Make your type an abstract type.
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21:55:45 <monochrom> Data.Ratio is an example.
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21:56:32 <glguy> No, it's a *module* :)
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21:57:35 <cheater> right, makes sense, no id
21:57:45 <cheater> err well
21:57:47 <cheater> you know what i meant.
21:58:15 <cheater> hmm
21:58:25 <cheater> not exporting stuff makes sense. thanks.
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