Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-04-26 (liberachat/#haskell)

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09:47:48 <carbolymer> which API do you prefer, 1 or 2? https://paste.tomsmeding.com/qxFouHyR
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09:48:46 <ncf> 2 is extensible
09:49:25 <carbolymer> fair point
09:49:42 <Rembane> I prefer number 2, it contains more words and not just a bundle of IO operations.
09:51:32 <Hecate> carbolymer: is 2 just like… accessors?
09:52:38 <carbolymer> can you call changing the state, an accessor?
09:53:55 <[Leary]> carbolymer: 3: `do { Tripwire{trigger,check} <- mkTripwire; ... }`
09:54:34 <carbolymer> [Leary]: oh that's a nice idea
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09:59:42 <tomsmeding> definitely 2
10:01:21 <Rembane> If you wanna go really spicy you can replace IO with some monad that looks like IO to make it possible to test stuff in a pure fashion.
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10:04:37 <carbolymer> that'd be an overkil for this
10:04:43 <carbolymer> thanks everyone
10:04:51 <carbolymer> I'll go with nr 2
10:08:26 <Rembane> Sounds good. I'm always trudging around in the testing swamps, which is why I see these things everywhere.
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11:23:18 <nij-> Why isn't getLine of type `IO () -> String`, but rather `IO String`?
11:23:38 <nij-> How do I make whatever getLine returns into a datum of type String?
11:23:56 <geekosaur> `getLine` is not a `String`, it is a program that when run may produce a `String`
11:24:06 <geekosaur> @quote /bin/ls
11:24:06 <lambdabot> shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files
11:25:51 <geekosaur> and if you want access to the `String` if and when it is produced, you use `>>=` (or write using `do` notation, which does the `>>=` for you)
11:26:48 <nij-> Hmm but I will never get a pure String.. you mean?
11:27:07 <nij-> because a single monad m cannot be removed.
11:27:16 <int-e> But you can pass it to pure functions from within IO
11:27:16 <nij-> i.e. mmx -> mx is possible
11:27:20 <nij-> but mx -> x is not.
11:27:37 <geekosaur> it's possible temporarily, but you hav e to put it back when you're done
11:27:38 <int-e> :t fmap
11:27:39 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
11:27:41 <geekosaur> :t (>>=)
11:27:42 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
11:27:44 <nij-> int-e Right, but my whole program, since the introduction of getLn, will be "impure" in this sense?
11:27:58 <int-e> yes it will be
11:27:58 <geekosaur> it is anyway, since `main :: IO a`
11:28:06 <nij-> ok
11:28:26 <nij-> So the idea is to write pure functions all the way down, and have the "dirty" elements only for stdio
11:28:28 <nij-> ?
11:28:36 <int-e> :t interact
11:28:37 <lambdabot> (String -> String) -> IO ()
11:28:49 <geekosaur> roughly yes
11:28:57 <int-e> (you can make main = interact main' and then main' :: String -> String can actually be pure)
11:29:12 <geekosaur> pure functions are easier to work with, but useful programs are impure
11:29:15 <nij-> If I really want, can I write a function of type IO String -> String, that
11:29:27 <int-e> (Is that a good idea? Not if you want more interesting effects but `interact` is lovely for simple trext processing.)
11:29:29 <nij-> if read correctly, return the string, if not, return "LOL"
11:29:54 <ncf> that wouldn't be pure
11:29:56 <geekosaur> there's a way to do it, but it won't do what you expect
11:30:11 <int-e> :t const "LOL"
11:30:11 <lambdabot> b -> [Char]
11:30:12 <nij-> ncf Why not?
11:30:26 <nij-> geekosaur Yeah, right. I'm just curious how to do that.
11:30:35 <ncf> "reading successfully" is not a property of an IO String. it's a property of running that action
11:31:04 <int-e> To be pure, foo getLine would have to return the same result every time it's evaluated.
11:31:07 <nij-> Ok.. how about. If it's read to be "A", return "A"; otherwise, return "LOL"?
11:31:54 <ncf> the pure result of type String cannot depend on what running the action does
11:32:03 <nij-> Hmm I see. Then I make it weaker: make the function whose "final type" is the pure String.
11:32:05 <int-e> We have `unsafePerformIO` and the name is not a joke.
11:32:48 <ncf> nij-: isn't that what you wrote earlier?
11:32:50 <int-e> The right way is to start within IO and then pass values (like the string that `getLine` produces) into pure functions.
11:33:14 <tomsmeding> the idea of IO is that it is "viral": any computation that is impure (e.g. because it has side-effects, or does not always return the same thing, etc.) is in IO, and anything that _uses_ any of that is hence also in IO
11:33:56 <tomsmeding> a traditional design for programming in haskell is to write most of your program without IO, and to have a relatively small outside layer that does IO and calls into the pure logic inside to do the actual, well, logic
11:34:02 <tomsmeding> ("functional core, imperative shell")
11:34:27 <tomsmeding> there are various ways to make this more nuanced, e.g. with effect systems, but the basic idea is still a sound way to construct purely functional programs
11:34:55 <tomsmeding> so indeed, as soon as you use getLine, anything that calls that will live in IO
11:35:29 <tomsmeding> but that doesn't mean that you cannot write a 'foo :: String -> Whatever' function that uses the result, and then at the top level, have 'do { line <- getLine ; print (foo line) }'
11:35:37 <tomsmeding> this implicitly uses (>>=)
11:36:03 <tomsmeding> (removing the syntactic sugar ("desugared"), that would be 'getLine >>= \line -> print (foo line)')
11:36:34 <tomsmeding> the upshot of it all is that a function that returns a non-IO value will hence be pure and always return the same thing without side effects!
11:36:37 <tomsmeding> and that's the big win
11:37:38 <tomsmeding> (unless you use something like unsafePerformIO, but then it's on you to maintain that promise, and woe you if you don't -- it's called "unsafe" for a reason)
11:38:07 <tomsmeding> (using unsafePerformIO correctly is quite tricky and essentially requires knowing something about GHC's internals)
11:39:53 <int-e> . o O ( imagine a T-shirt saying "ask me about `unsaferPerformIO` inside `atomically`" )
11:40:04 <nij-> I see. Thanks!
11:40:06 <nij-> Hmm
11:40:19 <nij-> Unless, the function is IO String -> String, which always returns a constant?
11:40:34 <nij-> s/a constant/a predefined constant/
11:40:38 <tomsmeding> the only way to implement that function (apart from using unsafePerformIO) is to return a constant
11:40:46 <nij-> I see. Thanks a lot!
11:41:06 <tomsmeding> and apart from breaking open the internals of the IO data type (yes, it's a data type) and doing things that are even more unsafe than unsafePerformIO
11:42:47 <nij-> Interesting.
11:43:27 ncf . o O ( unsafeCoerce )
11:44:42 <tomsmeding> yeah there are more backdoors
11:45:13 <tomsmeding> you can also pass through a FFI function mistagged as non-IO
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11:45:29 <tomsmeding> I feel like that does not make my general claim any less true :p
11:45:53 <nij-> Just wondering,
11:45:59 <nij-> monads are functors with structures
11:46:15 <nij-> Are there pairs of functors that satisfy some algebraic relations like this too?
11:46:22 <int-e> @quote burrito
11:46:22 <lambdabot> xplat says: monads are to burritos as distributive laws are to pepto-bismol
11:48:07 <ncf> adjunctions come to mind
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11:49:26 <nij-> ncf any interesting and useful adjunctions in haskell?
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11:50:05 <ncf> (,) a ⊣ (->) a
11:50:17 <ncf> :t (curry, uncurry)
11:50:18 <lambdabot> (((a1, b1) -> c1) -> a1 -> b1 -> c1, (a2 -> b2 -> c2) -> (a2, b2) -> c2)
11:51:08 <ncf> you can make a State monad out of this!
11:51:18 <ncf> (and a Store comonad)
11:52:27 <nij-> hmm.. im not looking for functions that have algebraic relations, but functors.
11:52:35 <nij-> multiple (i.e. more than 1) functors
11:53:13 <ncf> well, (,) a and (->) a are the functors here
11:53:31 <ncf> relations between functors are bound to involve types and functions
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11:55:41 <nij-> I don't know about these two functors.. wow.
11:55:54 <nij-> What are them? They aren't composed with eng chars so too hard to find with google.
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11:58:17 <ncf> (,) a b is (a, b) (pair type) and (->) a b is a -> b (function type)
11:58:47 <nij-> I see. In math this is just x and ->.
11:58:56 <tomsmeding> well, a x - and a -> -
11:58:57 <nij-> Delaying evaluation, or (un)currying
11:59:12 <nij-> hom tensor adjunction
11:59:38 <nij-> Any other .. that's useful, and particularly only "works in CompSci"?
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12:01:59 <ncf> not sure what you mean by that
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12:03:27 <nij-> Hmm.. I'm just trying out my luck to see if we have more intereting adjunctions. And since ,-> adjunctions show up elsewhere, my curiousity doesn't stop here :D
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12:04:26 tomsmeding writes lots of haskell code, including interesting type trickery, without properly knowing what an adjunction is
12:05:53 <nij-> tomsmeding Yeah, I'm just curious xD
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12:06:33 <jackdk> Near as I can tell from https://hackage.haskell.org/package/adjunctions-4.4.2/docs/Data-Functor-Adjunction.html , it's just (r,) and (r ->), and various lifting instances
12:07:15 <ncf> yeah adjunctions between hask and hask are not immensely interesting
12:07:39 <jackdk> the Representable superclass is good fun though
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12:08:33 <nij-> In math point of view, the functors F and G are adjoint (i.e. form an adjunction pair) if they are "invertible" to each other "up to 2-functors (i.e. functors between functors)" .
12:08:47 <ncf> but e.g. the free monoid functor [] can be seen as a left adjoint to the forgetful functor from the category of monoids to the category of sets (or hask)
12:08:54 <nij-> Anyway, it's a very natural generalization of inverse functors.
12:09:24 <nij-> ncf Oh right, those too!
12:09:24 <ncf> up to 2-morphisms*
12:09:42 <nij-> structuralizing and forgetting pair
12:10:06 <nij-> (Yeah.. ncf, I just think 2-mors are too much a jargon for this channel.)
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12:10:26 <fedir> What's wrong?https://i.imgur.com/0LoCDJt.png
12:10:28 <ncf> better than incorrect jargon!
12:10:53 <ncf> fedir: use :{ and :} to delimit multi-line definitions in ghci
12:11:09 <ncf> or semicolons
12:11:24 <geekosaur> fedir, ghci doesn't know how to group the defining equations together by itself, as ncf says you must put them on one line or use :{ :} to group them
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12:11:51 <fedir> Thanks!
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14:30:14 <yin> just use ghcid tbh
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14:32:43 <yin> ghcid --warnings --no-status --run --clear --no-height-limit myfile.hs
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15:17:54 <ski> @quote /bin/ls
15:17:54 <lambdabot> shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files
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15:23:28 <tomsmeding> that quote was indeed referenced :)
15:24:09 <EvanR> it's crazy how they can fit so many lists of files in /bin/ls
15:24:16 <EvanR> serious compression tech
15:25:21 <ncf> on some OSes they're actually stored on your filesystem directly
15:25:34 <tomsmeding> have you considered how many integers are in 'Integer -> Integer'
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15:33:08 <Inst> this is dumb
15:33:16 <Inst> my cell phone is almost out of battery, it's been lost
15:33:26 <Inst> welp, wrong channel, sorry
15:33:37 <EvanR> probably for the best
15:33:56 <EvanR> between traffic accidents and misinformation and serious lack of haskell, phones suck
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15:36:02 <Inst> EvanR: the situation is ridiculous, I'm trying to figure out how to hack into my phone via the VPS app to turn on Find My and location services so I can call the police on the taxi driver who ran off with my phone
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15:36:58 <EvanR> there was an article recently about 2FA and how to recover from losing your phone
15:37:10 <EvanR> which is often one way or another the way you authenticate
15:37:58 <Inst> i'm pissed off because i'm calling the phone once in a while to turn it on, then ss -t on my VPN server
15:38:03 <Inst> and geolocating my IP
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20:03:29 <yin> EvanR: i run ghc on my phone :)
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20:05:02 <EvanR> I'm jelly
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20:35:22 <monochrom> Don't get jelly, get even! Run ghc on your watch. >:)
20:35:40 <monochrom> VR headset OK too. :)
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20:44:51 <tomsmeding> monochrom: if you make ghc use less memory
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20:45:17 <monochrom> I know, we just need 16-bit GHC. >:)
20:45:24 <tomsmeding> lol
20:46:06 <tomsmeding> although, if running `ghc --version` counts, that uses just a little less than 100 MB of memory
20:46:26 <tomsmeding> (this is supposed to be funny)
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20:47:41 <monochrom> Back then when MLton performed whole-program optimizations and required 128MB, it was a big deal, it was like "only your school server can handle it".
20:47:46 <int-e> monochrom: need hugs?
20:48:15 <monochrom> Oh! That's a good idea. Running hugs on your watch first.
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22:57:59 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> I sometimes use Haskell on my phone, too!
22:58:00 <haskellbridge> <i​rregularsphere> It's on 8.10.7 rn (upgradable to 9.2.5-1) but Termux fills up 18GB of my phone's storage mostly due to useless packages I installed in the past. Planning to wipe & reinstall, though.
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All times are in UTC on 2024-04-26.