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Logs on 2024-04-27 (liberachat/#haskell)

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03:34:10 <dmj`> monochrom: we need haskellton
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03:44:38 <probie> As in a full program optimising compiler?
03:45:16 <probie> or just something that eats absurd amounts of RAM (which GHC seems quite capable of doing on its own)
03:45:18 <monochrom> Yeah.
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03:45:26 <monochrom> That too. :)
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03:57:32 <dmj`> probie: if we had haskellton, we wouldn't eat as much memory
03:57:39 <dmj`> probie: and yes
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06:16:34 <bsima> how do I find out what version of template-haskell is shipped with my ghc version?
06:16:40 <bsima> I look at the .version field in nixpkgs and its null
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06:28:25 <probie> `ghc-pkg latest template-haskell` probably
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07:13:32 <bsima> yeah that worked, i was looking for a webpage or something that would list it
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07:47:45 <geekosaur> bsima, https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/commentary/libraries/version-history
07:48:44 <bsima> ah thanks geekosaur
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09:08:06 <ph88> How can i see the instance implementation of Show :+: ? -ddump-deriv doesn't work because the base library is not recompiled https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.1.0/docs/GHC-Generics.html#t:Data
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09:27:25 <int-e> How about imitating it? data a ::+:: b = a ::+:: b deriving (Show)
09:27:38 <int-e> err, that's not the right declaration
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09:53:11 <tomsmeding> I have a haskell library that, if a certain cabal flag is set (-fdebug), depends on a whole bunch of additional C++ code that is cloned into a git submodule by Setup.hs if the flag is set. The C++ files are necessary for compilation with -fdebug, so they should be in extra-source-files but only if -fdebug is set. This is impossible because top-level blocks cannot be put in a conditional.
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09:54:08 <tomsmeding> Now anyone who does `cabal sdist` (for example by using the library as a dependency (!)) but doesn't have -fdebug set, which is most people, will get cabal diagnostics that the extra-source-files are not found
09:54:11 <tomsmeding> What do?
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09:57:34 <tomsmeding> (_not_ setting the extra-source-files meaning that using the library as a source-repository-package dependency with -fdebug will fail because the C++ files are not copied by cabal before building)
09:57:48 <tomsmeding> s/meaning that/means that/
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14:49:33 <yin> hi. can someone give me a simple explanation of why 'Pattern matching on GADTs without MonoLocalBinds is fragile'?
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15:03:06 <ncf> yin: see section 4.2 of https://simon.peytonjones.org/assets/pdfs/outsideinx.pdf
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15:04:58 <ncf> (i'm not sure why this makes pattern matching "fragile", but that's the reason given in the documentation)
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15:14:22 <ncf> i also can't reproduce the issue in the paper at all... with their code snippet and NoMonoLocalBinds i get the expected "Couldn't match expected type 'Bool' with actual type 'a'"
15:14:48 <jumper149> I want to create a value-level literal from a type-level datakind. Do I need singletons or is this possible with `Typeable` or something else?
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15:16:24 <jumper149> So basically I want something like `natVal` or `symbolVal` for my custom enum type.
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15:19:48 <[Leary]> jumper149: Make a typeclass?
15:21:14 <jumper149> data T = A | B
15:21:27 <jumper149> class TKindToType where
15:21:54 <jumper149> toVal :: Proxy (t :: T) -> T
15:22:05 <jumper149> [Leary]: Something like this is what you mean?
15:24:48 <[Leary]> `t` Should be the parameter to the class, but yes.
15:25:10 <jumper149> Yeah, I just wrote this directly into weechat, so I forgot...
15:25:31 <jumper149> Well but that is the same thing singletons would do I think
15:26:25 <jumper149> The annoying part is you have to write all instances by hand or generate them with singletons.
15:26:39 <jumper149> But I guess dependent haskell has to wait a little more
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15:29:15 <someone235> Hi, I'm getting `/usr/bin/ld.gold: error: cannot find -lgmp` when trying to run `ghc hello.hs`. Anyone has any idea what could be the cause?
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15:36:26 <geekosaur> you need to install the OS gmp devel package
15:36:36 <geekosaur> haskell can't do this for you
15:37:34 <someone235> geekosaur: it's weird that it's not listed as a dependency in the instructions
15:38:15 <someone235> Anyway, it worked, so thank you!
15:38:21 <geekosaur> https://www.haskell.org/ghcup/install/#system-requirements
15:38:47 <geekosaur> I thought ghcup also output a message about this on install
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16:01:12 <monochrom> It does. No one reads it.
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16:26:36 <haskellbridge> <J​ade> im pretty sure this is still out of date for a few distros, I meant to raise an issue about that ...
16:28:05 <geekosaur> `gmp` has always been a dependency though
16:36:09 <probie> Does ghcup support installing a GHC which uses integer-simple?
16:37:16 <geekosaur> probably does but requires extra histrionics if you're not on Alpine
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17:03:24 <haskellbridge> <J​ade> geekosaur: this is in reference to libffi6/7 on debian
17:03:57 <haskellbridge> <J​ade> im pretty sure those are out of date, atleast last time I installed ghcup in debian I needed to use a higher version
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17:24:06 <reki> Hi all! I've just pushed updated version of Future Monad. It's stateful now and works the same way as IO
17:24:08 <reki> https://github.com/ibaryshnikov/future-hs
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17:58:28 <tomsmeding> jumper149: types are erased at runtime in haskell, so you have to get a value from somewhere that is not _just_ the type
17:59:00 <tomsmeding> generally that "somewhere" is some kind of singleton, be it via the 'singletons' library or otherwise, and via a typeclass or otherwise
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20:05:38 <mreh> Should stack build be failing to find the c std lib? For some reason ghci handles compiling this FFI code fine.
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21:16:57 <haskellbridge> <J​ade> what makes `unsafeInterleaveIO` unsafe?
21:18:01 <geekosaur> it tells the compiler "I promise this is actually pure", and the compiler will treat it as such and may duplicate it, reorder it, etc.
21:18:15 <geekosaur> oh, interleave, sorry
21:18:32 <geekosaur> basically it's doing unchecked I/O behind the scenes
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21:18:52 <ski> as unsafe as concurrency (`forkIO')
21:19:06 <EvanR> evaluating something containing unsafeInterleaveIO can have side effects
21:19:43 <haskellbridge> <J​ade> yeah but it's `IO a -> IO a`, so it can have side effects either way?
21:19:46 <EvanR> it requires extra logic beyond haskell to make sure it makes sense
21:20:07 <EvanR> nevermind me, you're right
21:20:12 <geekosaur> the problem is, you can use >>= to get at the `a`, but it is not obvious that it can continue to do I/O
21:20:14 <EvanR> that's what makes it different from unsafePerformIO
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21:22:35 <yin> what's wrong with the charts at https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/lchaskell ?
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21:27:04 <EvanR> "could not load the image"
21:27:25 <EvanR> it's 404ing, maybe google discontinued that API
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21:38:10 <[Leary]> Jade: It's akin to `pure . unsafePerformIO`; the former does not actually cancel the danger of the latter. In particular, it violates referential transparency: when `unsafeInterleaveIO` is in use, you cannot replace one expression with another equal expression blindly, as one may produce observable side effects when forced, hence the substitution changes the meaning of your program.
21:38:24 <[Leary]> % traverse (unsafeInterleaveIO . putChar) "hello world" >>= print . void
21:38:24 <yahb2> [(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),(),()]
21:38:52 <[Leary]> Here, we're printing a list of units, so the `void` is redundant and should be removed.
21:38:56 <[Leary]> % traverse (unsafeInterleaveIO . putChar) "hello world" >>= print
21:38:56 <yahb2> [h(),e(),l(),l(),o(), (),w(),o(),r(),l(),d()]
21:39:49 <EvanR> it's possible to think yourself out of the side effects and claim what it's doing makes sense, but normally you don't have to do that in haskell. So extra brain cycles required
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22:25:10 <dolio> ski gave the right answer. :þ
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22:37:52 <yin> huh?
22:38:06 <yin> what is that list?
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22:38:48 <yin> is it just concurrent output or something else?
22:41:05 <dolio> You can think of it as concurrency where the scheduling gets informed by the lazy evaluation.
22:41:47 <dolio> When you need something, your thread gets interrupted and the one that was supposed to calculate it runs instead.
22:42:12 <yin> got it
22:45:16 <geekosaur> unprincipled coroutines
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22:57:57 <monochrom> Consider do { x <- unsafeInterleaveIO (writeIORef v 5 >> pure ()); y <- unsafeInterleaveIO (writeIORef v 6 >> pure ()) ; ... }
22:59:08 <monochrom> Now v will be 5 or 6 or unchanged at unknown future times depending on when will x or y or neither is evaluated.
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