Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-04-28 (liberachat/#haskell)

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00:04:37 <EvanR> you could use IVar in the story. the value you get back from executing the unsafeInterleaveIO action could be an IVar behind the scenes. And some thread is responsible for doing the i/o and writing the IVar
00:07:07 <smogeb> what's the best book to write a interpreter (that is not scheme) ??
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00:11:26 <dolio> EvanR: Right, exactly.
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04:31:48 <ski> @hackage ivar-simple
04:31:48 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ivar-simple
04:31:49 <ski> @hackage data-ivar
04:31:50 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/data-ivar
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06:25:22 <famubu> Hi. I had been trying to use megaparsec. I was trying use `satisfy` to accept a single upper-case ascii character. So I tried `satisfy Data.Char.isUpper` but that didn't work. The required type mentions `Token`.
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07:17:10 <[exa]> famubu: what is your parser type? might be the case you are using an overly generic satisfy, or that your stream is not directly compatible with Char (might happen if you parse from bytestrings or so)
07:18:18 <[exa]> (if that's the case, I'd say there is a bytestring-compatible variant of isUpper somewhere)
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08:12:16 <famubu> [exa]: Sorry, I just had to add an explicit type annotation. It somehow worked with that.
08:13:16 <famubu> Now I'm trying to find an upto date tutorial for megaparsec. The official one mentions setting up an operator table with `Operator` type, but can't find that type at all in latest megaparsec repo..
08:13:32 <famubu> Or maybe I'm not looking at the right place.
08:16:25 <famubu> There seems to be no `import Text.Megaparsec.Expr` in the new megaparsec.
08:16:32 <tomsmeding> seems to be gone since 6.0.0
08:16:54 <famubu> Yeah.. I was wondering what to use in place of it.
08:16:59 <tomsmeding> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/parser-combinators-1.3.0/docs/Control-Monad-Combinators-Expr.html
08:17:22 <tomsmeding> megaparsec was reorganised to depend on `parser-combinators` where most of the higher-level API comes from
08:18:36 <famubu> Thanks! Let me try that.
08:19:17 <tomsmeding> not sure if the API is _exactly_ the same as in the tutorial you found, but at least it's the same idea
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08:39:45 <[exa]> famubu: ok so that was likely an ambiguity killing it
08:41:04 <[exa]> famubu: re the tutorial, there was a repo with relatively up-to-date examples somewhere (as in, there was a .cabal file and it compiled), I used that for reference
08:41:40 <[exa]> (aaaaaaand I can't find it.)
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08:46:05 <[exa]> ._.
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09:52:47 <yin> assuming no language extensions other that the default ones, when are type annotations used in pattern matching?
09:53:20 <tomsmeding> ScopedTypeVariables is in GHC2021 (if that's what you mean with "the default ones")
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09:55:29 <yin> when do we use type annotations in pattern matching with it?
09:55:46 <tomsmeding> I think it's never actually necessary
09:56:15 <tomsmeding> but it can be helpful, in my experience, in two cases: 1. you want some kind of type annotation on a lambda function but are too lazy to make it a let-defined thing with a type signature
09:56:30 <tomsmeding> so you just write (x :: Int) as the argument or something
09:57:08 <tomsmeding> or 2. the argument's type has some instantiation of a type variable in it that you need on the type level, and you could get via other means but that would be very cumbersome
09:57:23 <tomsmeding> and with ScopedTypeVariables you can bring that thing into scope with a type annotation in a pattern
09:57:31 <yin> hmm
09:57:51 <tomsmeding> note that type annotations in patterns are just that -- type _annotations_, they don't influence pattern matching, they can only constrain the overall type of the function or bring type variables into scope
09:58:15 <tomsmeding> you can't pattern match on types in haskell
09:58:23 <yin> in the first case, isn't it always inferred by the type system anyways?
09:58:25 <famubu> Type annototaion had a 'type equivalence' thing from Token to Char. That had made the error go away. As in `Token ~ Char`
09:58:40 <famubu> I'm sure I'm not using the right term here..
09:58:49 <tomsmeding> yin: a typical example of (1.) is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.19.0.0/docs/Control-Exception.html#v:catch
09:59:06 <tomsmeding> you need that e to infer to something specific, usually, and the body of the lambda is typically not enough for that
09:59:33 <tomsmeding> famubu: that would be a type equality
09:59:49 <famubu> [exa]: 🥴
09:59:58 <tomsmeding> famubu: was the error something like "Cannot match type Foo a with Foo a0"?
09:59:59 <famubu> tomsmeding: 👍
10:00:09 <famubu> Yeah.
10:00:15 <tomsmeding> right, that's an ambiguity error
10:00:46 <tomsmeding> where ghc sees that your expression is polymorphic, but for some reason (typically a good one in general) it doesn't quite want to just infer that polymorphic type
10:01:00 <tomsmeding> perhaps because the polymorphism is constrained in some weird way
10:01:14 <yin> tomsmeding: where's the type annotation on pattern matching in 'catch'?
10:01:34 <tomsmeding> so then ghc asks you to say precisely what you mean -- some specific instantiation, or an actual polymorphic type where it's then on you to write down what ghc should do
10:01:54 <tomsmeding> yin: do you see the `(e :: IOException)` in the example in the haddocks?
10:02:08 <yin> yes
10:02:14 <tomsmeding> you typically have to manually constrain e somehow, and having to do that on some occurrence in the body is kind of clunky
10:02:25 <tomsmeding> it's nicer to write `catch _ (\(e :: IOException) -> ...)`
10:02:51 <yin> oh i see
10:03:10 <int-e> tomsmeding: oh the cloudatacost.com fan page is gone, so sad. https://web.archive.org/web/20220811231349/https://cloudatacost.com/mystory/original-story-2014
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10:03:38 <yin> somehow i don't consider that to be patter matching. it's just like
10:03:43 <yin> > minBound :: Int
10:03:45 <lambdabot> -9223372036854775808
10:03:52 <int-e> (wrong channel)
10:04:09 <tomsmeding> yin: indeed, it's a type annotation that you can put in a convenient spot
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10:07:19 <ski> "I think it's never actually necessary" -- introducing a type variable for an opened existential
10:08:25 <tomsmeding> you could also write a helper function that you pass your matched things to
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10:08:47 <tomsmeding> that helper function could have a type signature from which you can get your type variables with ScopedTypeVariables
10:08:51 <tomsmeding> it's a workaround to be sure
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10:12:32 <yin> i guess my question is: do we really need the ability to annotate on the function head?
10:12:47 <yin> or is it just a convenience
10:12:47 <tomsmeding> what does "function head" mean?
10:12:54 <tomsmeding> a type annotation in a pattern?
10:12:59 <yin> tomsmeding: left of the = on a function definition
10:13:02 <yin> or |
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10:13:13 <yin> i man
10:13:13 <ski> the definiendum of the defining equation
10:13:15 <tomsmeding> it's never strictly necessary, but can be very convenient in some cases
10:13:15 <yin> *i mean
10:13:21 <yin> forget the |
10:13:46 <ski> .. i miss the ability to put a type ascription on the whole definiendum
10:13:56 <yin> ski: wdym?
10:14:13 <ski> map (f :: a -> b) (xs0 :: [a]) :: [b] = case xs0 of ...
10:14:23 <ski> the ` :: [b]' there, specifically
10:14:26 <tomsmeding> at that point just write a type signature :p
10:14:41 <yin> we can't do that anymore?
10:15:16 <yin> foo :: Bool = True -- works just fin
10:15:21 <yin> e
10:15:23 <ski> yea, but i'd rather have the option to express a full signature in this style, in addition to the usual separate type signature. rather than *almost*, but not quite, being able to do this
10:15:35 <ski> yea, but that only works for pattern bindings, yin
10:15:46 <ski> unlike in the MLs, where this works just fine
10:16:02 <yin> i see
10:16:55 <ski> (otoh, the MLs doesn't have separate type signatures, interleaved with implementation. you can only put those in signatures (/ module types))
10:18:02 <ski> iow, i'd prefer to be given the choice of using the usual type signatures, or a more C-style mixed definiendum & type ascriptions. (or both, or neither)
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10:19:22 <tomsmeding> you're right, for functions with many arguments it would sometimes be nice to be able to interleave the types with the argument names
10:19:24 <ski> (i'd also like the above to be able to bind tyvars `a' and `b', without a separate type signature. as, iirc, `PatternSignatures' originally allowed, but the current `ScopedTypeVariables' doesn't. but that's a separate issue)
10:19:47 <tomsmeding> wait it doesn't?
10:19:54 <yin> also news t ome
10:20:29 <tomsmeding> I guess it only does if the body already inferred to the annotated types?
10:21:13 <ski> hm. maybe they changed it so it works, now ?
10:21:35 <ski> > let map (f :: a -> b) (xs0 :: [a]) = (case xs0 of [] -> []; x:xs -> f x : map f xs) :: [b] in map (^ 2) [2,3,5,7]
10:21:36 <lambdabot> [4,9,25,49]
10:21:38 <ski> > let map (f :: a -> b) (xs0 :: [a]) :: [b] = case xs0 of [] -> []; x:xs -> f x : map f xs in map (^ 2) [2,3,5,7]
10:21:39 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: error: Parse error in pattern: map
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10:22:16 <yin> awful error message :p
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10:24:06 <tomsmeding> https://play.haskell.org/saved/AwWkZI0A
10:24:21 <tomsmeding> ski: were you talking about the foo0 behaviour?
10:24:27 <ski> i'm pretty sure the former (or another example that also tested the same thing) also didn't work, at some point
10:24:35 <tomsmeding> in your last parenthetical
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10:26:13 <tomsmeding> to be honest I'm kind of surprised that foo3 doesn't work; I'm not sure what to expect with foo0
10:26:26 <tomsmeding> and I'm even more surprised that foo1 works but foo3 doesn't
10:26:59 <tomsmeding> ah no I'm not surprised about foo3
10:27:28 <yin> do we need existential type applications? :p
10:27:29 <ski> hm, there's no raw link at that page ?
10:27:35 <ski> yes, yin
10:27:55 <tomsmeding> in fact, if you change the called function (in the body) to foo2 everywhere, all cases work, even foo0
10:28:07 <yin> @(forall a. a)
10:28:07 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
10:28:16 <tomsmeding> so ski your last "that's a separate issue" parenthetical seems to be false
10:28:25 <ski> that would be impredicative, not existential, yin
10:28:26 <tomsmeding> you _do_ bind a and b that way
10:28:56 <tomsmeding> and indeed, there's no raw link at that page; would you want one ski?
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10:29:24 <ski> yea, i tested in GHCi (just before i asked lambdabot), and concluded it worked (also testing whether `map' here was actually polymorphic, by applying it at different types), and so concluding it must not have worked at some point, and later got fixed
10:29:43 <yin> ski: right
10:30:04 <tomsmeding> my playground example works back to 8.4.4 :p
10:30:05 <ski> it would be useful, sure, tomsmeding. i very commonly open pastes in terminal browser (without Javascript)
10:30:12 <tomsmeding> ah!
10:30:46 <ski> (atm i just rebooted $GRAPHICAL_BROWSER, since it was lagging and not responding. only just done so that i can check out the page in it)
10:31:09 <tomsmeding> where should I put the link though, suggestions?
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10:31:31 <ski> (another reason to open in terminal browser is so i can access the session, running under GNU Screen, from elsewhere. this also works with X forwarding of images (which W3m can display))
10:31:38 <tomsmeding> heh opening the playground in elinks gives absolutely nothing useful
10:32:24 <ski> maybe beside the "Save & share code" button ?
10:32:44 <tomsmeding> would it be acceptable if I put the "raw" link there only if there is no javascript?
10:33:15 <ski> well, opening it in W3m shows me the buttons (but they are not clickable, unlike other buttons on many pages), and doesn't show the source at all (neither readable, or with garbled formatting, as some paste sites do)
10:33:39 <tomsmeding> if you open the playground without JS it's completely nonfunctional anyway, even in a state-of-the-art graphical browser
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10:34:24 <tomsmeding> I don't think it's worth the effort to make it work better in a no-JS environment, but I now see that having a "raw" link would be terribly useful in that case, so I'll add that
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10:34:44 <tomsmeding> I'm just thinking to hide that link if there is JS so that it doesn't clutter the UI for the majority of users, only for those for whom it would help
10:35:15 <tomsmeding> (with working JS you get the source with just select-all, copy)
10:36:21 <ski> "that's a separate issue" referred to it being separate from the issue being able to put a type ascription on the whole definiendum (as well as to name tyvars in opened existentials, for that matter)
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10:39:12 <ski> "would it be acceptable if I put the "raw" link there only if there is no javascript?" -- okay, i guess, if you think it clutters the interface up too much otherwise ? (i suppose i'd prefer to have the link, regardless, so i don't have to hunt through the page source for it, if i'd like to e.g. download (e.g. with accurate timestamp, if available) or link directly to the raw text. but having it available if
10:39:18 <ski> there's no Javascript is the more annoying thing)
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10:39:40 <tomsmeding> what do you mean with "with accurate timestamp"?
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10:40:46 <ski> (i sometimes check out the raw link, or do such hunting through the page source, for other paste sites. enough that i've started to memorize the URL pattern for it in some cases, and immediately modify the given paste link before loading it in browser)
10:41:42 <ski> i mean that if i `wget' the raw (or "download") source link, i get a timestamp on the downloaded file that represents when the paste was made, rather than when i downloaded it. not all sites are configured to give this information, though
10:42:23 <tomsmeding> oh interesting, I would indeed have forgotten that
10:42:32 <tomsmeding> or, rather, not thought about that at all
10:42:42 <ski> "I now see that having a \"raw\" link would be terribly useful in that case, so I'll add that" -- great, thanks a bunch
10:43:46 <ski> (s/the more annoying thing/the more annoying case/)
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10:48:27 <ski> (incidentally, having the page display when the paste was made, would also be useful info, imho)
10:48:47 <Rembane> +1
10:48:51 <tomsmeding> where in the UI
10:49:08 <tomsmeding> considering that the UI should still make some sense if the window is not terribly wide
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10:49:40 <tomsmeding> (there is already a UI bug where there is a range of window widths where the top bar doesn't fit but doesn't scroll yet)
10:49:55 <ski> top is already a bar with some elements. could display it in there ? or, i guess, maybe could make a pop-up for some stuff, if reasonable
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10:50:03 <tomsmeding> (oh that bug is trivially fixable)
10:50:38 <ski> does it display the GHC output below, if the window's not wide enough ?
10:50:51 <tomsmeding> yes
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10:50:59 <tomsmeding> it switches to a vertical stack below 800px width
10:51:10 <ski> *nod*
10:51:16 <tomsmeding> (had to choose some value)
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10:53:12 <tomsmeding> can somebody tell me why cabal does not consider 1.0 >= 1.0.0
10:53:46 <int-e> > [1,0] >= [1,0,0]
10:53:47 <lambdabot> False
10:54:04 <tomsmeding> hm I guess
10:55:23 <yin> > [0] >= [0,0]
10:55:25 <lambdabot> False
10:55:30 <yin> > [] >= [0]
10:55:31 <lambdabot> False
10:55:44 <tomsmeding> > [1] >= repeat 0
10:55:45 <lambdabot> True
10:56:57 <yin> > [0] >= [0,undefined]
10:56:58 <lambdabot> False
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10:58:02 <ski> > [0] >= 0:undefined
10:58:03 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.undefined
10:58:09 <ski> > [0] <= 0:undefined
10:58:11 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.undefined
10:58:35 <yin> int-e: is it clear now?
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10:59:06 <int-e> yin: that wasn't a question
10:59:18 <ski> (it was an answer)
10:59:35 <yin> lol i need to wake up
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11:01:11 <yin> goog conversation nontheless
11:01:16 <yin> *good
11:01:19 <tomsmeding> ski: that would be the Last-Modified http header, right?
11:01:40 <int-e> ski: I guess [] <= undefined *could* be defined but the report defines everything in terms of `compare` and [] `compare` undefined has to be bottom
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11:01:48 <ski> sounds relevant, tomsmeding
11:02:13 <ski> int-e : yea, was just thinking about that, in relation to ordering on `Nat'
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11:04:11 <ski> (well, i guess it's called `Natural' .. but lambdabot doesn't have that loaded, anymore, afaik)
11:04:36 <tomsmeding> inductive peano nats?
11:04:46 <ski> yes
11:04:52 <tomsmeding> there are none in base and I'm salty about that
11:05:34 <ski> it was nice to showcase things like `genericLength xs == (0 :: Natural)', also for infinite `xs'
11:06:06 <int-e> . o O ( length' = map (const ()) )
11:06:15 <tomsmeding> there is a Natural in base (in Numeric.Natural) but it's just an unsigned 'Integer'
11:06:34 <int-e> (yes, I seem to be circling back to where ski started)
11:10:01 <tomsmeding> (random fact: already 6378 saved snippets on the playground)
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11:12:08 <ncf> length = void
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11:13:59 <ncf> https://i.imgflip.com/8oapr0.jpg
11:14:46 ski clicked on the "Save & share code" buttom, expected it to pop up some modal window, clicked again when that didn't happen quickly
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11:20:18 <tomsmeding> ski: was it just slow?
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11:22:01 <ski> no, it just surprised me, didn't do what i expected, instead just changed the URL (but the page appeared exactly the same, so i didn't notice that immediately)
11:22:15 <tomsmeding> ah I see
11:22:27 <tomsmeding> you're supposed to get a dialog though
11:22:32 <ski> ah
11:22:35 <tomsmeding> but it's a <dialog>, what browser are you using?
11:22:46 <ski> this was Firefox
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11:23:07 <tomsmeding> (currently trying to get 'time' to give me something that fits the Last-Modified header spec, which **requires** "GMT" for some reason)
11:23:33 <tomsmeding> ski: I get this in firefox https://tomsmeding.com/ss/get/tomsmeding/Th06hE
11:24:48 <ski> right. no such thing, just replacing the URL with that new one
11:25:02 <tomsmeding> that sounds like a bug; any errors in the JS console?
11:27:01 <ski> dunno whether "Block pop-up windows" (enabled) in <about:preferences#privacy> would affect this
11:27:14 <tomsmeding> I would expect not
11:27:35 <tomsmeding> I have that checkbox set too
11:30:08 <ski> Uncaught TypeError: dialog.showModal is not a function doSave https://play.haskell.org/play-index.js:189 onreadystatechange https://play.haskell.org/play-index.js:59
11:30:20 <tomsmeding> thank you!
11:31:16 <tomsmeding> that line number looks wrong, but whatever I guess (it's on line 189)
11:31:18 <ski> (took a short while to figure out where to access the console. i don't commonly reach for such)
11:31:25 <tomsmeding> ah sorry
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11:31:41 <ski> it's three lines, two line numbers
11:31:48 tomsmeding dumb
11:31:54 <ski> i guess a brief call trace
11:31:57 <tomsmeding> yes
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11:32:56 <tomsmeding> ski: what's your firefox version?
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11:33:38 <ski> 91.4.1esr (64-bit)
11:33:59 <tomsmeding> that's 2021 vintage
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11:36:26 <tomsmeding> mozilla doesn't seem to publish anything on support periods (?)
11:37:29 <tomsmeding> this https://endoflife.date/firefox claims that it's been out of support for a long time
11:38:34 <tomsmeding> (Dialog.showModal(), the function that you don't have, is in firefox since 98, so would already be in the next ESR, 102, which is also already old)
11:38:39 <yin> tomsmeding: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/blog/baseline-evolution-on-mdn/
11:38:51 <int-e> LOL https://devdoc.net/web/developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox/Firefox_ESR.html "The current ESR version is based on Firefox 45 issued on March 8th, 2016." ("Last updated by: SphinxKnight, Jul 11, 2017, 5:10:31 AM")
11:39:31 <tomsmeding> int-e: I suggest removing the devdoc.net/web/ prefix from that :p
11:39:59 <tomsmeding> yin: right, I see such a support box at the top of the mdn page for showModal() https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/HTMLDialogElement/showModal
11:40:12 <int-e> tomsmeding: But then I get a 404 :P
11:42:30 <yin> https://caniuse.com/?search=showModal
11:43:17 <yin> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/showModalDialog
11:43:42 <tomsmeding> yin: "This method was removed in Chrome 43 and Firefox 56."
11:44:01 <yin> https://caniuse.com/?search=dialog
11:44:12 <yin> yes...
11:44:19 <tomsmeding> yin: what are you trying to say?
11:44:41 <tomsmeding> <dialog> works from firefox 98, and ski is using an old version 91.4 ESR
11:44:56 <tomsmeding> I had previously decided that >=98 was wide enough, but maybe it isn't now
11:45:11 <yin> oh i see
11:47:01 <yin> tomsmeding: yeah you need to choose the cutoof
11:47:05 <yin> cutoff
11:47:27 <yin> i personally design for text only browsers first and build from there
11:47:42 <tomsmeding> ski: why are you still on 91? Is it likely that it's just you or do you get this from some package manager somewhere that other people might also use?
11:48:12 <yin> tomsmeding: have you considered https://caniuse.com/?search=alert ?
11:48:22 <tomsmeding> it was an alert() before :p
11:48:28 <tomsmeding> I might fallback to that
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11:48:33 <yin> welp :)
11:49:29 <tomsmeding> https://github.com/haskell/play-haskell/issues/3
11:49:30 <ski> well, i installed debian-based distro on this laptop, a few years ago, and haven't gotten around to updating it
11:49:51 <tomsmeding> ski: I see, thanks; that tells me that you might not be the only one
11:50:10 <tomsmeding> be aware of missing security patches in basically everything on your machine though
11:51:40 <yin> for vulnerabilities like alert :)
11:52:02 <tomsmeding> for any browser vulnerabilities since mid 2021
11:52:08 <tomsmeding> which is significant
11:52:50 <int-e> even oldstable is at 115
11:53:04 <int-e> (aka buster)
11:53:23 <tomsmeding> these days, for better or for worse, a web browser is not something that you should want to get very old
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12:01:47 <yin> is there a difference between 'map (show @Double)' and 'map (show :: Double -> String)' ?
12:02:06 <tomsmeding> % :set -fprint-explicit-foralls
12:02:07 <yahb2> <no output>
12:02:09 <tomsmeding> % :t show
12:02:09 <yahb2> show :: forall a. Show a => a -> String
12:02:11 <tomsmeding> no
12:03:20 <int-e> well, type applications are a language extensions
12:03:28 <yin> in which case does one need TypeApplications?
12:03:36 <tomsmeding> the first only
12:03:46 <yin> no, i mean
12:03:57 <yin> why do we need TypeApplications if we can just annotate
12:04:21 <int-e> show @Double is shorter than show :: Double -> String
12:04:30 <tomsmeding> because 1. sometimes the whole type is very large and contains many components that are irrelevant to this annotation
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12:04:35 <mauke> sometimes there is nothing to annotate
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12:05:02 <tomsmeding> and 2. if the type was defined using AllowAmbiguousTypes an annotation might not be enough
12:05:44 <mauke> class Memorable a where { bitsNeeded :: Int }
12:06:09 <tomsmeding> (which indeed needs AllowAmbiguousTypes)
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12:10:22 <yin> it surprises me that TypeApplications, being included in GHC2021 and GHC2024, just offer a slightly more convenient but also less readable way of type annotation
12:10:51 <tomsmeding> it is hugely more convenient in some cases
12:11:05 <tomsmeding> and genuinely required if the original type was ambiguous
12:11:30 <yin> tomsmeding: ok, but that requires a non default extension
12:12:39 <tomsmeding> an example of the first is https://hackage.haskell.org/package/sqlite-simple-0.4.19.0/docs/Database-SQLite-Simple.html#v:query
12:12:43 <yin> oh nvm
12:12:47 <yin> i get it now
12:12:49 <yin> thanks
12:13:23 <tomsmeding> being able to write `query @_ @(Maybe Int, String)` if I want to annotate that the result row is [nullable integer, text] is MUCH more convenient than having to give a full type annotation
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12:22:00 <yin> ok then my next question is
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12:22:24 <yin> why is AllowAmbiguousTypes not enabled by default?
12:22:49 <tomsmeding> because you _typically_ don't want to write an ambiguous type
12:23:05 <tomsmeding> it's good to be forced to add a Proxy argument if you do want to write one
12:23:13 <tomsmeding> ambiguous types are very annoying to work with
12:24:12 <yin> reasonable
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12:35:52 <tomsmeding> ski Rembane: I pushed some changes to the playground, there's metadata now on the paste view page (example: https://play.haskell.org/saved/AwWkZI0A ) and the raw link should work in text mode too
12:36:04 <tomsmeding> also please check that I correctly did the last-modified date thing ski
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12:39:09 <tomsmeding> (I'll be a way for an hour or two but I'll read logs)
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12:54:22 <ski> tomsmeding : ah, thank you very much ! :D
12:55:29 <ski> (i did check both in graphical and terminal browser, and confirmed that `wget' (and i'd presume also `curl') sets the correct modified timestamp)
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14:38:18 <tomsmeding> ski: thanks, I checked using wget too but I had never made use of that functionality before, so good that it works for you too
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17:13:13 <pagnol> I'm writing client package/library for a third-part rest api. Does anyone know any nice patterns for this sort of thing?
17:13:18 <pagnol> *a client
17:14:15 <pagnol> I have a Swagger spec available but it's not too great, so I think I need to hand-write the client either way.
17:16:16 <[exa]> pagnol: no direct advice but you might want to steal some tricks from other API packages
17:16:38 <[exa]> there's e.g. the amazon API frontend, and I recently touched the gitlab API which wasn't bad either
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17:18:21 <[exa]> pagnol: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/amazonka and maybe https://hackage.haskell.org/package/amazonka-core and https://gitlab.com/robstewart57/gitlab-haskell
17:19:00 <kuribas> pagnol: servant?
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17:21:24 <[exa]> given the other side sounds like pythons I'd say that servant way has a huge chance to turn into a ball of duct tape around a tiny servant core...but yeah ymmv
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17:24:31 <kuribas> oh right, if it is not very well specified...
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17:24:54 <kuribas> Depends if pagnol wants a well typed API, or just something which returns json values...
17:25:19 <kuribas> But I find it hard to understand how sloppy many API are with openapi specs.
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17:29:13 <kuribas> some python frameworks like connexion verify the inputs, but by default not the outputs.
17:30:50 <pagnol> thanks, some good pointers, I'm looking at the one for Gitlab nw
17:30:52 <pagnol> *now
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17:35:20 <pagnol> as only an occasional Haskell user I find the Gitlab client really readable
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19:04:21 <mreh> so ghci will only compile the C functions you've referenced via the FFI rather than the whole file, that's interesting
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19:06:37 <EvanR> and functions referenced by those functions, and so on?
19:07:16 <int-e> That doesn't sound right. Linking only functions that are used, that I can believe.
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19:11:55 <mreh> ghci only links functions that are used, GHC links everything in the source file
19:12:03 <mreh> (through stack)
19:12:44 <mreh> I only found out because GPC 2.33 uses non standard libc functions
19:12:45 <EvanR> ghci dynamically loads?
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19:13:01 <mreh> I think so, yeah
19:13:02 <geekosaur> C/FFI yes
19:13:50 <geekosaur> but whether it can partially load an object file depends on the platform
19:15:01 <geekosaur> and how the object was built (on x86_64 it must have been compiled with -fPIC, for example)
19:16:26 <mreh> is that the default?
19:16:42 <geekosaur> not on x86_64
19:16:48 <mreh> huh, that's weird
19:16:49 <geekosaur> (except on Macs)
19:17:44 <mreh> so do I publish my partial bindings to GPC? There is a package on hackage that did, but it's pretty bit rotted now.
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19:25:57 <mreh> @seen dons
19:25:57 <lambdabot> I saw dons leaving #haskell 2y 1m 3d 6h 10m 13s ago.
19:26:42 <EvanR> that was after the freenodealypse, does lambdabot have memories from before that?
19:27:03 <geekosaur> @seen eviltwin_b
19:27:03 <lambdabot> I saw eviltwin_b leaving #xmonad, #ghc, #haskell-beginners and #haskell 1y 10m 15d 23h 53m 53s ago.
19:27:08 <geekosaur> huh
19:27:18 <geekosaur> didn't think I'd used that alias that recently
19:27:42 <monochrom> Oh hey it's the 1st anniversary!
19:27:54 <geekosaur> second, no?
19:28:01 <EvanR> it was in 2021
19:28:05 <geekosaur> oh
19:28:07 <EvanR> lol
19:28:08 <monochrom> Err nevermind, misread 10m as 10 minutes.
19:28:10 <mreh> I wasn't around, what happen
19:28:33 <geekosaur> freenode was taken over by a lunatic and imploded
19:28:44 <geekosaur> sort of twitter in miniature
19:29:44 <mreh> ah yeah, I'm just reading the wikipedia article
19:29:45 <geekosaur> the staff left en masse and founded libera; much of freenode followed them
19:31:22 <mreh> I rewatched a talk from SPJ from 2007: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06x8Wf2r2Mc&t=761s
19:31:43 <mreh> 3k unique nicks in #haskell in 2006
19:33:38 <mreh> we probably had fewer than 300 users online concurrently in the 2010s iirc
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19:38:12 <dolio> 3k was probably mostly people idling.
19:38:23 <dolio> Even now it seems like most people idle.
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19:39:59 <dolio> The freenode disaster really lowered the amount of idlers, though, I suspect.
19:40:39 <[exa]> kinda increased the use of matrix and other things too
19:40:45 <dolio> Yeah.
19:40:45 <geekosaur> dropped roughly by half, and by half again when the EWS gateway died
19:40:50 <int-e> that, the end of the matrix bridge... and general decline
19:40:55 <int-e> (of IRC)
19:41:05 <geekosaur> *EMS
19:41:12 <mreh> is there a discord?
19:41:23 <mreh> is that where all the zoomer haskellers hang out?
19:42:22 <ncf> yep
19:42:31 <geekosaur> https://discord.gg/5ay2HNK2 iirc
19:42:53 <geekosaur> on the FP discord
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19:44:42 <geekosaur> I'm definitely using more Matrix these days, but still appreciate my IRC logs
19:45:49 <yin> https://taylor.fausak.me/2022/11/18/haskell-survey-results/#s5q0
19:46:13 <yin> IRC not that far from Discord
19:50:39 <mreh> did you promote this on IRC :^)
19:52:02 <yin> don't know if it was promoted here but the results are more or less consistent with previous years
19:52:28 <geekosaur> it's promoted pretty much everywhere
19:54:03 <yin> probably it's not far from a "where the survey was promoted" plot
19:54:06 <yin> :p
19:55:06 <tomsmeding> promoting something in a linear chat channel is kind of difficult
19:55:27 <tomsmeding> I guess the same holds for matrix, but on discord one can at least pin a post (don't know if they did that here, I'm not in that discord)
19:56:04 <yin> that's what /topic is for
19:56:21 <dolio> That thing no one reads? :þ
19:56:27 <tomsmeding> when haskell reddit was larger (I left reddit when the third-party apps thing happend) that was a good promotion venue
19:56:52 <yin> i read it! old habit from the "netiquette" days
19:57:23 <tomsmeding> I've learned to read it -- it took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out how to scroll to the end in weechat
19:57:32 <yin> tomsmeding: yes, haskell reddit was very good
19:57:47 <tomsmeding> (it's still the very first thing in the topic)
19:58:19 <tomsmeding> also it's kind of hilarious that the majority of the www links in the topic are hosted by me
19:58:23 <tomsmeding> that sort of happened... accidentally
19:58:38 <yin> i forget, do individual channels have a MOTD?
19:58:54 <tomsmeding> I think the only thing there is is the /topic
19:59:04 <tomsmeding> where would a motd be printed
19:59:08 <geekosaur> chanserv can give people messages on join
19:59:18 <yin> geekosaur: that's what i was thinking of
19:59:51 <geekosaur> but the messages show as from chanserv, not from the channel, so they tend to collect uselessly
19:59:55 <tomsmeding> that would _certainly_ be something no one reads, because it appears in strictly less places than the topic
20:00:25 <tomsmeding> can chanserv send something in a channel that's only visible to one nick?
20:00:29 <EvanR> what is the state of haskell reddit?
20:00:45 <geekosaur> in fact, we have one: [20 11:46:14] -ChanServ- [#haskell] Welcome to #haskell. Beginner questions are welcome here! Public logs and statistics for this channel are available at https://ircbrowse.tomsmeding.com/lchaskell
20:00:53 <yin> i have a special pane on top just for server messages, mentions and other important stuff. i rarely miss anything
20:00:56 <tomsmeding> oh! I remember seeing that
20:01:15 <geekosaur> no, if it's sent "to a channel" then it's not sent "to a nick" (this is a side effect how how IRC messages are implemented)
20:01:35 <tomsmeding> I remember seeing that message in my #haskell log though
20:01:47 tomsmeding doesn't actually know how irc works in detail
20:01:49 <yin> bots sometimes send you a notice on join
20:02:02 <tomsmeding> as in, not in a /query
20:02:07 -mauke-- please note that you have been notified
20:02:15 <tomsmeding> thank you for the notice
20:02:31 <mauke> ^ this is how all bots are supposed to speak, btw
20:02:35 <mauke> according to the IRC protocol
20:02:42 ← ncf parts (~n@monade.li) (Fairfarren.)
20:02:43 <tomsmeding> https://xkcd.com/703/
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20:02:53 <tomsmeding> really?
20:02:59 <yin> not everyone agrees how notices should be used, although libera has a directive for bots to communicate through notices
20:03:13 <tomsmeding> also something like lambdabot?
20:03:15 <yin> mauke: exaclty
20:03:16 <geekosaur> yes, bots are supposed to use /NOTICE
20:03:20 <geekosaur> very few of them do
20:03:26 <ncf> ChanServ sends a PvNotice, whatever that is
20:03:35 <mauke> the protocol has two messages-sending primitives, PRIVMSG and NOTICE
20:03:55 <yin> i'm not sure if i agree with it myself, but one positive side effect is that notices prevent feedback loops
20:03:56 <mauke> the only difference is supposed to be that NOTICE should not be processed by bots (and trigger further actions)
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20:04:25 <tomsmeding> notices appear very differently in my client
20:04:43 <mauke> but some clients instead treat NOTICE has a more important message than PRIVMSG (instead of less important), and beep and alert you about it
20:04:50 <mauke> s/has a/as a/
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20:05:15 <ncf> aah so if you send a NOTICE to someone with the format [#channel] text then weechat displays it in that channel
20:05:29 <monochrom> By and far, most clients. It is why bot writers stopped using NOTICE.
20:05:40 <yin> i have configured notices to appear exactly the same as messages except for color
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20:06:17 <yin> i used to broadcast them, but because some bots started using them i stopped doing i
20:06:25 <monochrom> In general, humanity is fundamentally broken, and everything breaks as expected.
20:06:44 <[exa]> I always thought about notices as a kindof OOB data. "Read this before you get b&" or so.
20:06:46 <tomsmeding> I suspect it wouldn't go over well if I'd have yahb2 send notices
20:06:46 <ncf> oh shush
20:07:45 <[exa]> tomsmeding: s/yahb2/yahh2/ compliance fixed
20:07:56 <yin> notices used to go in my aforementioned special window until it started getting spammed by some bot
20:08:08 <mauke> according to the RFC, NOTICEs are just regular chat messages that are ignored by bots
20:08:32 <yin> why do some clients broadcast them then?
20:08:35 <yin> makes no sense
20:09:02 <monochrom> Because "meaningful" names. People look at the name "NOTICE" and start having their own ideas.
20:09:07 <tomsmeding> precisely
20:09:08 <[exa]> yin: why do people read documentation. :D
20:09:22 <tomsmeding> both names are bad actually, NOTICE and PRIVMSG
20:09:26 <mauke> NOTICE ME, SENPAI
20:10:08 <tomsmeding> nothing PRIV about a PRIVMSG
20:10:43 <mauke> it is only sent to the specified target :-)
20:10:58 <mauke> instead of the whole server
20:11:03 <tomsmeding> lol
20:11:06 <tomsmeding> that would be something
20:11:29 <mauke> I mean, IRC started out by emulating CB radio
20:11:33 <tomsmeding> perhaps the names were chosen when servers had like 20 people on them
20:11:37 <mauke> it's why we speak on "channels"
20:11:53 <mauke> and they used to be numeric
20:12:08 <tomsmeding> is the use of the word "channel" on matrix, discord, slack, etc. from irc, directly from radio, or unrelated?
20:12:17 <mauke> I think it's from IRC
20:12:34 <tomsmeding> funny
20:12:43 <tomsmeding> tell that to a zoomer discord user
20:13:04 <tomsmeding> "still using those old radio terminology?"
20:13:07 <yushyin> matrix has 'rooms' afaik?
20:13:08 <tomsmeding> s/those/that/
20:13:24 <tomsmeding> fair point
20:13:26 <yin> i asked chatgpt to list all message types in the IRC protocol and it listed NOTICE twice: under User Communication as "send a message that does not trigger automatic responses" and under Miscellaneous as "used for various notifications and alerts"
20:13:28 <[exa]> ah c'mon we've had rooms in 28000 BC
20:13:49 <tomsmeding> yin: so that sounds surprisingly accurate, down to the ambiguity
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20:14:28 <yin> that why i sometimes like chatgpt
20:14:52 <tomsmeding> I sometimes try to imagine how the tech world must sound for a native english speaker
20:15:15 <int-e> IRC has some obscure corners (so obscure that they may not even be implemented in modern servers... server-local channels are an example)
20:15:23 <yin> it's also the only duplicated type
20:15:36 <tomsmeding> I suspect I learned the word "window" as referring to something on a computer screen before knowing that it referred to a silicon-esquen thing you can look through
20:15:41 <mauke> was that the &foo thing?
20:15:45 <int-e> mauke: yeah
20:15:56 <[exa]> tomsmeding: literally last week I had to explain that "eradicate" in a commit message is a positive happy action
20:16:10 <tomsmeding> depends on what you eradicate, I guess
20:16:23 <tomsmeding> if it's bugs, then that's very positive
20:16:26 <[exa]> well, bugs, as usual
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20:20:06 <mauke> ex ter mi nate
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20:21:52 <tomsmeding> istos cimices
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20:26:46 <EvanR> tomsmeding, I'm a native english speaker. But I think I learned about windows before actual windows. And before Windows(R), since macintosh came first
20:26:56 <tomsmeding> :D
20:27:41 <tomsmeding> yeah no I definitely knew the Dutch word for a transparent-glass window before I had done anything with a computer
20:28:16 <tomsmeding> I wanted to say "touched", but I don't know what my hands did when I was a baby
20:29:05 <monochrom> Perhaps you broke the window. :)
20:29:19 <monochrom> "I just touched it and it shattered."
20:29:52 <EvanR> it was a TV that broke
20:30:04 <int-e> monochrom: diamond fingernails vs. touch screen
20:30:06 <EvanR> in the macintosh 1984 ad
20:30:39 <EvanR> or was it just apple, I don't even know what they were selling there
20:31:29 <monochrom> Haha which one makes a worse screeching sound? bad violin student, diamonad fingernails on touch screen
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20:31:42 <tomsmeding> diamonad, yes
20:31:51 <int-e> can't wait for the diamonad tutorial
20:32:07 <monochrom> Oh oops haha great typo
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20:32:28 <tomsmeding> add "drag piece of chalk under just the right angle over a blackboard" to that list
20:32:58 <monochrom> perhaps diamond fingernail on blackboard is even better!
20:33:01 <geekosaur> EvanR, just Apple
20:33:09 <tomsmeding> maybe they were selling apples
20:34:09 <EvanR> On January 24, Apple Computer will introduce Macintosh. And you'll see why 1984 won't be like "1984."
20:34:17 <monochrom> <zoomer> Wait, isn't it the Epic ad breaking Apple? </zoomer>
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20:39:18 <tomsmeding> <oldie> An ad for an epic? I thought they had gone out of fashion around the birth of Christ </oldie>
20:39:54 <monochrom> That would be a very old oldie. :)
20:40:53 <tomsmeding> unrelatedly, why does https://downloads.haskell.org still list "The Haskell Platform" if clicking that link lands you on a page saying "The Haskell Platform is deprecated"
20:41:18 <tomsmeding> not only deprecated, the last release seems to be for 8.6.5
20:41:29 <monochrom> Too polite to delete things?
20:41:45 <tomsmeding> I would understand that if it still had releases, even if noone was using them
20:42:22 <monochrom> OK I was unfair. This one shouldn't be deleted yet, but right upfront it should warn "but very old version".
20:42:30 <tomsmeding> I guess it's not terribly important, people don't typically land on downloads.haskell.org directly
20:42:46 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> lost links everywhere
20:42:57 <tomsmeding> I'm not saying delete the file
20:42:59 <tomsmeding> -s
20:43:13 <monochrom> Me neither, even when I was unfair.
20:43:31 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> i personally think that the http protocol should hash each webpage contents and provide
20:43:50 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> automatic timestamps to each edit
20:43:50 <tomsmeding> are you looking for ipfs?
20:44:18 <monochrom> Oh then I have something for you! https://www.vex.net/~trebla/humour/lmcify.html
20:44:47 <monochrom> You can now make URLs that carry their own complete content!
20:44:58 <mauke> you still believe in web pages?
20:45:41 <mauke> I thought we'd all switched to client-side "web apps" instead
20:45:42 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> that's the web i'm looking for!
20:46:55 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> the main online news outlets in my country don't timestamp their articles nor signal their edits
20:47:48 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> sometimes you read a really upsetting article and only after you find out that it's 10 years old
20:48:03 <tomsmeding> that just sounds like bad journalism
20:48:16 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> and sometimes you share an article and two days later the "facts" are edited
20:48:34 <monochrom> People don't have incentives to keep perfect record even for themselves, much less spend extra money to run servers to make it public.
20:48:53 <int-e> editing the article later is just SEO ;)
20:49:11 <monochrom> Even you probably don't take a snapshot of your own hard disks every time just before you install or uninstall software.
20:49:15 <geekosaur> "we have always been at war with east asia"
20:49:20 <geekosaur> (speaking of 1984)
20:49:46 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> we need nix://
20:50:27 <int-e> . o O ( after 2 hours of browsing with the nix:// protocol I ran out of disk space )
20:50:39 <monochrom> No, even that doesn't cut it. I am talking about a file system that is also a version system.
20:50:53 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> good
20:50:56 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> go touch grass
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20:51:14 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> 90% world problems solved
20:51:31 <tomsmeding> somehow I doubt that last part
20:52:30 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> yeah...
20:52:56 <monochrom> Such a thing almost existed. VAX VMS kept all old versions of your files.
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20:53:18 <tomsmeding> _all_?
20:53:29 <monochrom> Only economists are realistic enough to explain why no one does it any more.
20:53:33 <tomsmeding> it's not like disks were as roomy back then as they are nowadays
20:53:44 <monochrom> ___***ALL***___
20:53:56 <tomsmeding> that sould have been a /NOTICE
20:54:56 <monochrom> You literally could not use the excuse "I accidentally deleted my homework" because it was still literally available as "foo.c;12".
20:55:24 <tomsmeding> that's why VAX lost
20:55:29 <monochrom> (in general filename;versionnumber )
20:55:41 <tomsmeding> students get older
20:55:48 <int-e> my dog ate my hard disk drive
20:56:15 <tomsmeding> gotta take your dog to university
20:57:55 <mauke> https://perldoc.perl.org/perlport#System-Interaction :-)
20:58:00 <geekosaur> hm, pretty sure that was configurable per filesystem
20:58:07 <geekosaur> I know it was on TOPS-20
20:58:22 <geekosaur> the one I had access to kept two prior versions
20:59:29 <tomsmeding> `while unlink "file";`
20:59:33 tomsmeding shudders
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21:00:11 <mauke> `1 while unlink "file";` please
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21:00:20 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> i wonder how much we could compress the wevlb just by removing duplicates
21:00:25 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> duplicate files
21:00:26 <monochrom> No more terrible than for (i = 0; i < FD_MAX; i++) { close(i); } >:)
21:00:55 <tomsmeding> mauke: oops, you can see how often I've written perl
21:01:00 <monochrom> (in the context of daemonizing a process on Unix)
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21:02:20 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> is there data on the estimates size of the www per year?
21:02:27 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> *estimated
21:02:48 <monochrom> I think yes but I forgot where to find it.
21:02:51 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> i wonder if i could download the whole 1996 web
21:03:00 <tomsmeding> check /r/datahoarders
21:04:04 <mauke> what is the size of https://git-man-page-generator.lokaltog.net/?
21:04:34 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> C:\web\dark\sexyascii 1.7Kb
21:05:34 <haskellbridge> <z​wro> i just remembered https://libraryofbabel.info/
21:10:28 <monochrom> Oh yeah I saw a new post/thread on the discourse about "what are effects?". I want to participate, but need to check something with you guys. Does "effect" refer to eg the ability to read input (so eg in Haskell the IO type represents the effect) or to the value/action (so eg getChar)?
21:10:50 <tomsmeding> either, depending on who you're talking to
21:10:56 <monochrom> :(
21:10:57 <tomsmeding> the latter if you're talking to a mathematician
21:11:05 <tomsmeding> the former if you're talking to a functional programmer
21:11:21 <monochrom> Ah, then what do mathematicians call the former?
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21:11:39 <tomsmeding> I have never seen a mathematician talk about reading input :)
21:12:11 <monochrom> OK, maybe Maybe then.
21:12:48 <monochrom> maybe they just say monad...
21:13:06 <tomsmeding> I think so?
21:14:16 <tomsmeding> I would personally never call "IO" an effect, though
21:14:38 <tomsmeding> reading input is an effect (definition 1), and `getChar` is also an effect (definition 2)
21:14:57 <tomsmeding> monads allow you to perform effects (both definitions)
21:17:03 <tomsmeding> but algebraic effect systems also do, and those are not necessarily monads (though they invariably are, in haskell)
21:17:31 <int-e> using monads to great effect
21:17:34 <tomsmeding> s/are,/are/
21:19:19 <tomsmeding> "affect your effects using monad transformers"
21:20:27 <monochrom> I think all papers I read (OK, only two) presume monads for algebraic effects. I don't mean to say a programming language has to expose the monads. Just that they have monads behind.
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21:20:57 tomsmeding doesn't actually know how the mathematical theory for this goes
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21:24:28 <probie> Can you have a useful implementation for algebraic effects which isn't a monad? I guess if you disallow effects (definition 2) from depending on each other, you can have something weaker that's still of use
21:25:36 <tomsmeding> can't you define a system of effects-and-handlers, like some languages have (Koka? Never used it though), from first principles without involving a monad?
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21:27:09 <tomsmeding> (I should read something about this topic before I go sprouting nonsense though)
21:28:16 <Rembane> tomsmeding: I just saw your new version of the Haskell playground and I like it!
21:28:23 <monochrom> Right, Koka doesn't expose any monad. But you start postulating monads for semantics.
21:28:43 <tomsmeding> I see
21:28:52 <tomsmeding> Rembane: yay!
21:29:19 <tomsmeding> baby steps
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21:30:04 <ncf> that's what playgrounds are for
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21:32:07 <dolio> IO is the signature or theory. The 'effects' are related to the generators, which would be like `getChar` for IO. At least in the literature.
21:32:34 <tomsmeding> ah yes, I now remember mathematicians using those words
21:33:33 <tomsmeding> I was writing a paper with my PhD advisor and he wrote a part of the thing that talked about a monad; he wrote it \mathcal T
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21:33:54 <tomsmeding> "why 'T'" "well, it's a theory" "it's a monad" "ok" "call it \mathcal M" "ok"
21:34:06 <ncf> triple
21:34:26 <tomsmeding> more things in math are a triple than not
21:34:29 <ncf> monads used to be called triples
21:34:38 <monochrom> The "handler" part does not require a monad though; in fact it is not even required to be "algebraic". More concretely, for example Maybe: Just and Nothing are the algebraic part and where you require a monad, but the handler `maybe` is where you can map Maybe X to whatever Y you like; it is also not "algebraic".
21:34:44 <geekosaur> don't amke me haul out Mac Lane
21:34:45 <mauke> baby-step semantics
21:35:19 <ncf> (that's why monads are spelt T everywhere)
21:35:21 <dolio> Handlers are models, if I recall correctly.
21:35:53 <mauke> I wish my handlers were models
21:36:10 <monochrom> haha
21:38:43 <EvanR> all the best things come in threes
21:39:06 <EvanR> gifts, riddles,
21:39:10 <EvanR> doors
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21:41:02 <Rembane> Animals on a boat
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21:41:23 <int-e> and a cabbage
21:42:07 <Rembane> Yeah, I was kinda hoping that the cabbage was an animal
21:42:09 <cheater> i don't think they're spelt like that, i think they're more flaxseed
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21:44:50 <monochrom> You forgot that it was the human that was the 3rd animal. >:)
21:45:39 <monochrom> Although, I admit that if you pose the puzzle to chatgpt, then the "you" in the story ceases to be an animal. But one can hallucinate...
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21:48:54 <Rembane> I totally forgot the human. :)
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22:27:39 <mwnaylor> I want to get Haskell installed, in order to be able to install the xmonad window manager. BUT, the slackbuild fails. Any suggestions?
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22:31:31 <jackdk> That's not enough information for us to be able to help, it's like calling your mechanic and saying "my car makes a funny noise and won't start". ghcup is the preferred way to install GHC these days - are you using that? Also, please provide error messages, context, etc in a pastebin
22:31:35 <jackdk> @where paste
22:31:35 <lambdabot> Help us help you: please paste full code, input and/or output at e.g. https://paste.tomsmeding.com
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22:36:47 <EvanR> fix the slackbuild or use ghcup instead
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