Logs on 2024-05-01 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 00:08:23 | <jackdk> | Thanks but it's neither of those. It was more like a typelevel answer to the question "what resources is this function going to touch?" in a way that let you accumulate the names in a constraint and pull them down to the value level to write out a policy or equivalent |
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| 00:51:02 | <jackdk> | It was https://reasonablypolymorphic.com/blog/abusing-constraints/ |
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| 00:55:23 | <talismanick> | If a free monad is a tree of expressions, is there a DAG analogue? |
| 00:57:02 | <geekosaur> | oh, right, I saw that a few months ago |
| 01:00:13 | <geekosaur> | talismanick, isn't it actually a DAG anyway? cycles would severely limit the monads you could use to "interpret" it |
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| 01:09:19 | <ski> | hmm .. i guess you could have an operation that requires that its opeands "overlap" (have some common substructures), in some particular fashion. so a recursive decomposition of a problem (corresponding to matching on such a constructor operation) would then naturally allow dynamic programming (iow a DAG, rather than a tree, recursive decomposition/structuring of the original problem), presumably |
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| 01:11:26 | <c_wraith> | You don't need any special structure for that, though |
| 01:11:30 | <c_wraith> | You just need sharing. |
| 01:14:28 | <ski> | yea, but how do you detect, or enforce, the sharing, of the iput structure, to justify the sharing of the output computation ? |
| 01:14:36 | <ski> | s/iput/input/ |
| 01:14:50 | <c_wraith> | pick f carefully. |
| 01:15:01 | <c_wraith> | you can embed basically anything you want into f |
| 01:15:04 | <ski> | iow, i'm thinking of something like a catamorphism |
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| 01:18:29 | <ski> | given an array/vector with indices from `0' to `n-1' (incl.), we could decompose this into one slice from `0' to `n-2' and one from `1' to `n-1', guaranteed to overlap on the `1' to `n-2' part. eventually, we'd get down to singleton slices, which could be the base case of a dynamic programming, then results percolating back up in a "lattive"-like structure, rather than a tree, proper, thereby taking |
| 01:18:35 | <ski> | advantage of the sharing |
| 01:23:41 | <talismanick> | I'm feeling a little stupid, then, trying to understand https://hackage.haskell.org/package/zsdd/docs/Data-Diagram.html |
| 01:24:25 | <ski> | basically, we have, if `Just (ar01,ar12) = decompose ar012', `Just (ar0,ar1a) = decompose ar01' and `Just (ar1b,ar2) = decompose ar12', then `ar1a = ar1b' |
| 01:26:03 | <talismanick> | because, if one can assume "maximal sharing", I feel like I can see in my head how a BDD might be implemented with a (real) free monad |
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| 01:29:11 | <ski> | or, in terms of composition, if `Compose (Compose ar0 ar1a) (Compose ar1b ar2) = ar012', then `ar1a = ar1b'. so we have something like `Compose :: (ar0 :: Slice n) -> (ar1 :: Slice n) -> Agree ar0 ar1 => Slice (1+n)', where `Agree (Singleton x) (Singleton y)' as well as `(ar1a = ar1b) => Agree (Compose ar0 ar1a) (Compose ar1b ar2)' (where `Agree :: Slice n -> Slice n -> Constraint') |
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| 01:29:18 | <talismanick> | is it the kind of thing where it becomes obvious when you write it down? |
| 01:30:28 | <ski> | hm, is "BDD" Binary Decision Diagram ? |
| 01:31:09 | <talismanick> | yeah |
| 01:31:19 | ski | doesn't recall what those re |
| 01:31:22 | <ski> | s/re/are/ |
| 01:31:46 | <talismanick> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_decision_diagram |
| 01:32:04 | <talismanick> | kind of like SAT solving |
| 01:36:16 | <talismanick> | Is the problem is that laziness memoizes and shares for you without asking, making every tree equivalent to a DAG but not the one you want? |
| 01:38:18 | <c_wraith> | well, no. The problem is sharing only happens when explicitly introduced, and doing that is going to require bookkeeping. And the memory cost of that bookkeeping is ridiculous. |
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| 01:46:30 | ski | . o O ( "BDD-Based Deductive Databasee" <https://bddbddb.sourceforge.net/> ; "Soufflé - A Datalog Synthesis Tool for Static Analysis" <https://souffle-lang.github.io> ) |
| 01:47:32 | <ski> | there's also a problem that when traversing a structure with sharing, producing a new parallel structure, that would normally lose all sharing |
| 01:49:07 | <ski> | (what i was thinking about was encoding the sharing in the type, or rather, in the decomposition process, making it mandatory, thereby making sure it will happen in the result as well) |
| 01:49:59 | <ski> | (not clear how would apply something like that to BDDs, though) |
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| 01:59:28 | <talismanick> | ski: I think Souffle now uses a concurrent B-tree/trie hybrid (lexicographically-ordered B-tree?) |
| 01:59:41 | <talismanick> | found it: https://souffle-lang.github.io/pdf/pmam19.pdf |
| 02:01:01 | <c_wraith> | B-trees are already lexicographically ordered. I'm betting it's more like adjusting the number of bits in a node in order keep the fan-out within particular bounds. |
| 02:01:17 | <c_wraith> | Which... sounds sorta like Patricia Tries, actually. |
| 02:02:45 | <c_wraith> | Ah, not quite. Patricia tries have a fixed fanout of 2 |
| 02:05:28 | ski | only heard someone mention Soufflé the other week, recognized the mention of BDDBDDB, but hasn't looked at it |
| 02:08:09 | <talismanick> | c_wraith: the cost of bookkeeping is prohibitive for free monads in general, you mean? |
| 02:09:58 | <talismanick> | The reduction of a Boolean function is canonical (up to variable ordering), so maybe it's not a problem in this case... |
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| 02:11:54 | <talismanick> | It's probably be none-too-expensive to preface the interpreter with the reduction rules, so long as the free monad/binary decision tree is built and consumed incrementally, right? |
| 02:12:09 | <c_wraith> | no, I mean that if a problem like this is hard, there are just a *lot* of distinct subproblems. |
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| 05:14:57 | <Axman6> | Hello #haskellers, can I ask a favour of someone on Matrix? Can you just say some things in here so I can see if I've fixed something that's breaking for me in glirc. I probably need to see a few messages to know if it's improved |
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| 05:43:15 | <haskellbridge> | <geekosaur> does this help? |
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| 07:09:32 | <[exa]> | Axman6: might be the case that there's a matrix-specific channel with plenty of people hyperactive about this topic |
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| 08:34:15 | <hseg> | Hi. I'm packaging some haskell programs, and am planning to build them with stack. Other than manually editing stack.yaml, is there a way to set the snapshot to lts-22.19+ghc-9.6.5 ? |
| 08:34:53 | <hseg> | I know I can set the lts part by stack config set resolver lts-22.19, but does stack not have a way to write the compiler version to use? |
| 08:36:24 | <hseg> | (alternatively, where can I track progress on cutting an lts using ghc 9.6.5? It has a bugfix that's critical on my system) |
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| 09:53:33 | <lyxia> | hseg: https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/yaml_configuration/#compiler |
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| 10:09:08 | <hseg> | lyxia: thanks! In hindsight, it makes sense that such an off-the-beaten-path configuration would need manual intervention |
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| 15:40:37 | <shapr> | does anyone know how hackage calculates test coverage % ? |
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| 15:42:25 | <shapr> | aha, I think I found it |
| 15:43:07 | <shapr> | yup, I think it's https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server/blob/master/exes/BuildClient.hs#L594 |
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| 16:43:40 | <yin> | /reconnect |
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| 17:05:38 | <gaff> | I have some code here https://goonlinetools.com/snapshot/code/#r7dkw4j84woahyak9mbns5 that has 2 ways to define Applicative instance for EitherT. I would like to know if there is any difference between the two definitions for <*>. |
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| 17:07:59 | <hseg> | Using stack with allow-newer, how can I get stack to dump the build plan it computed? |
| 17:09:42 | <gaff> | Appreciate any help. |
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| 17:22:55 | <mauke> | gaff: I think it would depend on how >>= and <*> are defined for m |
| 17:25:35 | <gaff> | mauke: I am not clear why you are saying so. In any case, let us assume `m` is `StateT s Identity`. |
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| 17:29:18 | <k``> | Is there any particular reason that `Data.Bits.shiftR` is undefined for shifts greater than `bitSize`, but `Data.Bits.shiftL` is not? |
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| 17:33:04 | <geekosaur> | whether it's meaningful depends on the type. consider `Integer` |
| 17:33:49 | <k``> | It's not relevant to `Integer`. |
| 17:33:49 | <geekosaur> | also, signed vs. unsigned occurs to me as a potential problem, but I haven't looked to see if it's relevant |
| 17:34:53 | <k``> | (I assume that when it describes comparing things to `bitSize`, it means only for types where `bitSize` is a nonbottom, nonnegative value.) |
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| 17:38:10 | <geekosaur> | I could also see it depending on ISA: whether shift-right is logical (0 shifts in) or arithmetic (carry bit shifts in) |
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| 17:42:10 | <lyxia> | gaff: the second either always runs the two computations |
| 17:43:34 | <lyxia> | gaff: let m = EitherT (modify (+ 1) >> pure (Left ())) :: EitherT () (State Int) () in m *> m |
| 17:44:35 | <geekosaur> | sorry, that'd be per bit. I wonder if some ISA simply rejects shifts > bitSize |
| 17:44:51 | <geekosaur> | (i.e. traps) |
| 17:44:53 | <Franciman> | i miss haskell's syntax T.T |
| 17:45:06 | <Franciman> | ocaml's one is a pain sometimes |
| 17:46:39 | <gaff> | lyxia: Not sure what you are saying there. |
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| 17:53:03 | <geekosaur> | "Also, Intel's manual[1] states that the results are undefined when cnt is greater than the operand size, but at least for 32- and 64-bit data sizes it has been observed that shift operations are performed by (cnt mod n), with n being the data size." |
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| 17:54:10 | <geekosaur> | so yeh, it comes down to the ISA |
| 17:54:54 | <geekosaur> | k`` ^^ |
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| 18:11:29 | <justsomeguy> | What do you guys think of this monad video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2w45qRc3aU ? |
| 18:12:31 | <ncf> | i'm sure it's excellent since it starts with "the absolute best" |
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| 18:17:40 | <monochrom> | How long is it? |
| 18:20:48 | <dolio> | 15 minutes |
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| 18:24:17 | <probie> | I think this is a better monad video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ |
| 18:24:55 | <dolio> | Seconded. |
| 18:24:57 | <k``> | Seems like the processor issues make sense for `unsafeShiftR`, but maybe not `shiftR`. And the inconsistency between R and L is still unexplained... |
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| 18:29:27 | <monochrom> | Rick Astley actually has his own youtube channel and posts his official MVs. I be damned. |
| 18:29:58 | <c_wraith> | he's even released new stuff recently. and it's quite good. |
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| 18:30:52 | <ncf> | i knew he was never gonna let me down |
| 18:30:54 | <geekosaur> | the docs look reversed for unsafeShiftR vs. shiftR (compare shiftL) |
| 18:32:46 | <k``> | Oh wow. Looks like it's a documentation issue... |
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| 18:35:55 | <k``> | > shiftL 1 64 :: Word64 |
| 18:35:56 | <lambdabot> | 0 |
| 18:36:20 | <k``> | > shiftL 1 64 :: Int64 |
| 18:36:21 | <lambdabot> | 0 |
| 18:36:53 | <k``> | shiftL 1 128 :: Int |
| 18:37:16 | <k``> | > shiftL 1 128 :: Int -- Simon says |
| 18:37:17 | <lambdabot> | 0 |
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| 18:37:37 | <k``> | > shiftR 1 128 :: Int |
| 18:37:38 | <lambdabot> | 0 |
| 18:38:03 | <k``> | > bit 128 :: Int |
| 18:38:05 | <lambdabot> | 0 |
| 18:38:12 | <k``> | Cool. |
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| 19:38:12 | <Guest67> | Could anyone help me understand why this code doesn’t work/what the correct way of achieving this sort of functionality is? The type error lies with the parameter x in goo, when I left-arrow bind it to ref. |
| 19:38:12 | <Guest67> | x :: ST s (STRef s [Int]) |
| 19:38:13 | <Guest67> | x = newSTRef $ [1..10] |
| 19:38:13 | <Guest67> | foo :: STRef s [Int] -> ST s () |
| 19:38:14 | <Guest67> | foo ref = modifySTRef ref (0 :) |
| 19:38:14 | <Guest67> | goo :: ST s (STRef s [Int]) -> [Int] |
| 19:38:15 | <Guest67> | goo x = runST $ do |
| 19:38:15 | <Guest67> | ref <- x — type error here |
| 19:38:16 | <Guest67> | foo ref |
| 19:38:16 | <Guest67> | readSTRef ref |
| 19:38:40 | <Guest67> | In foo, that's not supposed to be a smiley face, it's supposed to be "(0 : )" |
| 19:39:58 | <mauke> | goo's type looks sus |
| 19:40:14 | <mauke> | :t runST |
| 19:40:15 | <lambdabot> | (forall s. ST s a) -> a |
| 19:40:37 | <mauke> | runST requires its argument to be fully polymorphic in s |
| 19:40:46 | <mauke> | but goo does not |
| 19:40:57 | <Guest67> | Does readSTRef ref not return a value that's fully polymorphic in s? |
| 19:41:06 | <mauke> | :t readSTRef |
| 19:41:07 | <lambdabot> | STRef s a -> ST s a |
| 19:41:11 | <mauke> | depends |
| 19:41:22 | <mauke> | readSTRef has no special requirements on s |
| 19:41:36 | <mauke> | it just passes through whatever s it gets |
| 19:42:06 | <mauke> | the way goo is declared, the caller of goo gets to choose an 's' |
| 19:42:41 | <monochrom> | If you want an elementary answer, goo should not take that parameter. |
| 19:43:00 | <mauke> | that is, there could be some specific type T and someone could create a value of type ST T (STRef T [Int]) and pass it to goo |
| 19:43:20 | <mauke> | and that's not valid as an argument to runST |
| 19:43:22 | <monochrom> | If you want an advanced answer, if you really want goo to take that parameter, then "goo :: (forall s. ST s (STRef s [Int])) -> [Int]" |
| 19:43:42 | <monochrom> | I don't have time to further explain the advanced answer if you don't understand it. |
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| 19:44:31 | <mauke> | ^ monochrom's code basically says: "you don't get to choose an s; you must give me a polymorphic value that works with all possible choices of s" |
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| 19:49:58 | <shapr> | hackage codebase is kinda rough |
| 19:50:11 | <Guest67> | Thanks. That makes sense in a vacuum, but it kind of conflicts with my understand of why newSTRef [1..10] returns something of type ST s (STRef s [Int]) to begin with. I thought the whole point of doing that is that it forces the type variable s to become "rigid", so the variable x is no longer a polymorphic value that works with all choices of |
| 19:50:12 | <Guest67> | it. But it turns out that their suggestion works, and I can apply goo to x |
| 19:50:30 | <monochrom> | Here is another elementary answer. goo can take that parameter, but don't call runST. goo :: ST s (STRef s [Int]) -> ST s [Int]. Have someone else write "runST (goo x)". |
| 19:52:13 | <monochrom> | s/conflicts/confirms/ . The erroneous code is precisely a victim of a rigid s. |
| 19:53:41 | <mauke> | newSTRef just links up the STRef with its surrounding context (that is, it forces the two 's' parameters to be the same) |
| 19:54:06 | <mauke> | 's' can still be arbitrary |
| 19:55:43 | <Guest67> | But if that's the case, why can't I do runST $ newSTRef [1..10] |
| 19:56:42 | <mauke> | that one I don't have a good understanding/explanation of |
| 19:56:50 | <monochrom> | Before I answer that, I ask back why would anyone want that to be legal? |
| 19:56:54 | <mauke> | but the type of runST is (forall s. ST s a) -> a |
| 19:57:01 | <ncf> | s would escape its scope |
| 19:57:07 | <geekosaur> | because outside the runST, s has no type |
| 19:57:10 | <mauke> | and in that example, the 'a' would have to contain an 's' somehow |
| 19:57:28 | <mauke> | because we're trying to return a result of type STRef s [Int] |
| 19:57:29 | <geekosaur> | but newSTRef oproduces a value whose type includes an s |
| 19:57:51 | <monochrom> | The purpose of runST is to never leak out mutable variables. So why should "runST (make a mutable variable and return it)" be legal? |
| 19:58:14 | <monochrom> | The rank-2 type is designed to ban that. |
| 19:58:32 | <Guest67> | I don't want it to be legal, I'm moreso curious about why it is the case that it prevents that from happening |
| 19:58:46 | <geekosaur> | okay, let's go back to that forall |
| 19:58:50 | <geekosaur> | it does two things |
| 19:59:08 | <geekosaur> | the first one we already discussed: "must accept any type for s" |
| 19:59:26 | <geekosaur> | the second is that it delimits where s is meaningful: inside the parentheses where the forall occurs |
| 19:59:35 | <geekosaur> | outside those parenthses, s doesn't exist |
| 20:01:23 | <mauke> | from a "who gets to choose" point of view, the caller of runST gets to choose 'a', but 's' has to be left polymorphic (as demanded by runST) |
| 20:01:42 | <mauke> | this causes a conflict if 'a' includes 's' |
| 20:02:03 | <mauke> | (like if 'a = STRef s [Int]') |
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| 20:02:54 | <mauke> | if the caller gets to choose 'a', it implicitly also chooses 's', and that's illegal |
| 20:04:03 | <Guest67> | So that part makes sense. But then why can I apply goo, which now requires s to be fully polymorphic, to the result of the newSTRef? I'm implicitly choosing 's' by choosing 'a', so the result is no longer fully polymorphic in s right? |
| 20:04:57 | <monochrom> | Which version of goo now? |
| 20:05:00 | <mauke> | in your original code, a = [Int] |
| 20:05:34 | <Guest67> | The new one, where the type signature is (forall s. ST s (STRef s [Int])) -> [Int] |
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| 20:06:36 | <mauke> | that still uses runST at type (forall s. ST s [Int]) -> [Int] |
| 20:07:15 | <mauke> | because the action you're passing to runST doesn't try to return an STRef. it just returns a list |
| 20:08:49 | <monochrom> | "(forall s. ST s (STRef s [Int]))" stays fully polymorphic. I thought you knew that's what the "forall" is doing. |
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| 20:10:10 | <monochrom> | The words "the result of the newSTRef" is ambiguous. The wrong interpretation leads to the wrong conclusion. |
| 20:10:18 | <lyxia> | Instead of thinking in terms of rigid/"polymorphic" type variables, think in terms of input/output. newSTRef :: forall s. a -> ST s (STRef s a) takes a type s as an input. All of the ST functions except runST take s as an input. runST takes a function which takes a type s as an input, which means that runST (somehow) produces an s to be able to call that function. |
| 20:11:00 | <monochrom> | Yeah, that. |
| 20:12:28 | <monochrom> | Maybe I should teach that in my course too. (Currently I teach "caller chooses", "callee chooses".) |
| 20:13:27 | <monochrom> | (OK I am not teaching rank-2 types yet, so "caller chooses" has sufficed so far.) |
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| 21:35:17 | <tomsmeding> | monochrom: are you teaching existentials in data types? |
| 21:35:26 | <tomsmeding> | data Exists f where Exists :: f a -> Exists f |
| 21:35:48 | <tomsmeding> | that's another instance of this idea, except "producer chooses" vs "consumer chooses" |
| 21:35:58 | <tomsmeding> | never mind that haskell notates both with 'forall' |
| 21:36:13 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> g'day all. Isn't there a CPP macro for checking the value of a cabal package flag ? |
| 21:36:58 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I thought so, but can't find it |
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| 21:40:18 | <tomsmeding> | sm: I don't think so |
| 21:40:49 | <c_wraith> | sm: I think the typical thing is to put -DFLAGNAME in a cpp-options field when the flag is set |
| 21:41:04 | <tomsmeding> | e.g. search for 'if flag(debug)' here https://hackage.haskell.org/package/accelerate-1.3.0.0/accelerate.cabal |
| 21:41:28 | <tomsmeding> | of course you can name this define suggestively, like FLAG_yourthing |
| 21:41:33 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I guess you're right, thank you |
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| 21:42:21 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> I want to include ghc-debug support, but not by default as it's not yet widely packaged |
| 21:42:58 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> because ghc-debug-brick looked pretty powerful, even if I couldn't figure out a whole lot |
| 21:43:49 | <haskellbridge> | <sm> (I couldn't see a lot of source symbols, even when I built for profiling and with that info-tables ghc option) |
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