Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-05-12 (liberachat/#haskell)

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07:56:28 <syscall1> hello
07:57:37 <syscall1> exit
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07:58:09 <mauke> good syscall
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08:03:10 <syscall1> hello, i am new to irc. how do i register a nick on this channel?
08:03:31 <syscall1> (using weechat client)
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08:06:15 <mauke> nicks aren't a channel thing, they're a whole network thing
08:06:17 <mauke> https://libera.chat/guides/registration
08:07:04 syscall1 is now known as hash
08:07:41 hash is now known as rogue
08:08:07 rogue is now known as decimal
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08:08:26 decimal is now known as oatmeal
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08:12:16 <sandbag> @mauke got it. thanks
08:12:17 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
08:12:39 <mauke> lambdabot interprets messages starting with @ as commands :-)
08:12:57 <sandbag> oops
08:13:40 <mauke> sandbag: for addressing, I generally just type "sa<Tab>", which my irc client autocompletes to "sandbag: "
08:14:37 <sandbag> mauke: that worked! thanks for the heads up
08:14:55 <sandbag> is markdown highlighting supported in irc?
08:15:30 <mauke> no
08:15:43 <mauke> remember, IRC is older than the WWW :-)
08:16:05 <sandbag> bummer. how do I send code snippets in a readable form then?
08:16:12 <mauke> it's all plain (very plain) text and some client-side extras, like recognizing URLs
08:16:22 <mauke> external paste sites
08:16:34 <mauke> like our topic says: Paste code/errors: https://paste.tomsmeding.com
08:16:55 <sandbag> yes! sorry for not looking at the top :)
08:17:09 <mauke> don't worry, no one looks there :-)
08:17:50 <mauke> as a general rule, don't paste into IRC; use a paste site and give us the link to your post
08:18:02 <sandbag> got it!
08:19:37 <mauke> hmm... looks like #haskell doesn't filter color codes, so you could annoy everyone by putting random colors in your text
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08:21:06 <mauke> it's 03super green
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08:42:46 <sandbag> mauke: nice :)
08:47:38 <sandbag> https://paste.tomsmeding.com/CFWXtmFm, when i define 'html_ = el "html" content', it gives me an error. why? shouldn't el take 2 arguments?
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08:48:57 <mauke> what's the error message?
08:50:07 <mauke> in the playground, I get: Main.hs:5:19: error: Variable not in scope: content :: String
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08:50:37 <sandbag> yeah
08:50:47 <sandbag> that's what I get
08:50:49 <mauke> which makes sense to me. 'content' is not defined anywhere
08:51:13 <mauke> did you mean: html_ content = el "html" content
08:51:29 <sandbag> oh yes, sorr
08:52:05 <sandbag> that works as well, I got confused. but if you remove the variable, that will work too
08:52:28 <sandbag> el needs 2 arguments, and I have given it only one
08:52:45 <mauke> 2-argument functions are a scam
08:52:54 <mauke> all haskell functions really only take 1 argument
08:53:14 <mauke> a "two-argument function" is a function (of one argument) that returns another function (of one argument)
08:53:47 <sandbag> but it still combines 2 arguments into one right? so initially it was 2 arguments
08:53:53 <mauke> f x y really means (f x) y
08:54:23 <mauke> it is the function you get from f x applied to an argument, y
08:54:37 <sandbag> alright, but how does el function know where to get "content" if I did not pass it?
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08:55:07 <mauke> html_ content = el "html" content -- the original definition, is the same as:
08:55:16 <mauke> html_ = \content -> (el "html") content
08:55:48 <sandbag> i meant html_ = el "html"
08:56:06 <mauke> which says: html_ is defined as a function (of one argument, content) that applies (el "html") to that argument
08:56:18 <mauke> which means it is functionally equivalent to just el "html"
08:56:30 <mauke> because all it does is forward its argument to another function
08:56:54 <mauke> fundamentally, it's like writing 'f = g' instead of 'f x = g x'
08:56:57 <mauke> it comes to the same thing
08:57:09 <sandbag> your snippet makes sense. so the one I sent is similar?
08:57:58 <sandbag> im new to functional programming. forgive me for any kind of silly questions :)
08:58:17 <mauke> just as in 'f x = g x' you can "cancel" the x on both sides, so in 'html_ content = (el "html") content' you can cancel the content on both sides
08:59:44 <sandbag> ah, that makes sense. so i can get away by not passing arguments to some middle function which points to a top function which has the same argument
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09:00:12 <mauke> doesn't even have to be "middle" or "top"
09:00:43 <sandbag> oh, could be any function?
09:01:00 <mauke> any time you have a function whose outermost expression (in the function body) is a function application
09:01:20 <mauke> well, and the thing it's applying the (inner) function to is the argument of the (outer) function
09:01:27 <sandbag> in that manner, doesn't that eliminate the need of arguments then?
09:01:27 <mauke> \x -> (... anything here ...) x
09:01:46 <mauke> not completely
09:02:00 <mauke> consider \x -> f x x
09:02:21 <mauke> here we use the argument x not just as the last argument to some other function
09:02:44 <sandbag> yeah
09:02:53 <mauke> or even just \x -> f x 42
09:03:10 <mauke> you can't directly get the 'x' out of the middle of an expression
09:03:23 <sandbag> so, if you are referencing or using some other function, at that time arguments aren't required
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09:03:38 <mauke> but it turns out you can always do it if you allow some simple helper functions
09:03:57 <sandbag> true
09:04:19 <mauke> commonly known as S and K, defined as: K x y = x; S x y z = (x z) (y z)
09:04:40 <mauke> and now you can write all functions without arguments :-)
09:04:43 <sandbag> looks like a very complex math equation :|
09:04:48 <sandbag> and i suck at math
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09:05:25 <sandbag> anywho, thanks for the explanation. it's much clear now
09:05:49 <mauke> if you want to get scared, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic
09:06:03 <sandbag> i will resume my journey on functional programming
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09:06:09 <mauke> "Combinatory logic is a notation to eliminate the need for quantified variables in mathematical logic."
09:06:21 <mauke> or in our case, to eliminate the need for naming arguments in lambda functions
09:06:41 <sandbag> that's interesting
09:07:54 <sandbag> btw, completely offtopic but is ocaml similar to haskell or completely different?
09:08:02 <mauke> pretty similar in many ways
09:08:53 <sandbag> ah, that's great. i will pick it up after writing some haskell
09:08:56 <mauke> very similar syntax and type system
09:09:39 <mauke> but not lazy and not pure (ad-hoc side effects allowed everywhere)
09:10:14 <[Leary]> The MLs do share Haskell's parametric polymorphism and some syntax, but Haskell being both pure and lazy is somewhat of an island; there are no widely used programming languages that are genuinely similar.
09:10:14 <sandbag> functional languages do look a bit similar to python (mostly syntax and less amount of code). if you look at C or Go, you are writing a lot of code. but in python or haskell, it's less
09:10:51 <mauke> depends on the task and the language
09:10:59 <sandbag> for python, I can understand because of lots of abstraction. is it similar in haskell?
09:11:28 <sandbag> [Leary]: true
09:12:35 <sandbag> mauke: absolutely.
09:12:49 <mauke> I'd say what python and haskell have in common is fairly high-level abstractions (no need for explicit or manual memory allocation, for example) and an ecosystem of reusable modules
09:13:07 <mauke> which also applies to perl
09:14:51 <sandbag> mauke: yeah, perl as well. so is it mostly from C or some other language?
09:15:19 <mauke> to me, haskell is unique because you can stack abstractions on top of each other to create absolutely brain-breaking code in 3 or 4 lines
09:16:06 <mauke> java is also famous for being needlessly verbose
09:16:12 <sandbag> oh, that's interesting
09:16:43 <sandbag> mauke: absolutely! java is extremely verbose
09:17:38 <sandbag> i never really understood the importance of OOP. it is just there to complicate things
09:18:55 <mauke> loeb :: Functor f => f (f a -> a) -> f a; loeb x = y where y = fmap (\f -> f y) x
09:19:09 <Hecate> glguy: do you accept compat PRs for https://github.com/glguy/language-lua ? I need to work with GHC 9.8
09:19:36 <mauke> ^ like this thing. just two lines of code, fairly short; doesn't use any crazy language extensions; and yet ... wtf even is that
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10:50:33 <Guest_Plonker> I'm really intrigued by the idea of learning Haskell, but i'm a software engineering minimalist and the compiler on my linux distro package manager wants to pull in well over a GB of libraries and other programs. Has anyone got advice for getting that figure down to a couple hundred MB at most?
10:52:15 <mauke> ghc just is that chonky
10:52:39 <mauke> you could checkout hugs, but that hasn't been maintained in a decade or so
10:52:57 <mauke> there's also microhs, but no idea how production ready that is
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10:59:19 <Guest_Plonker> MicroHs looks interesting. I'll give it a try. Thanks for the suggestion.
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15:43:43 <glguy> Hecate: yeah, send it in
15:47:08 <glguy> Just ping me here. I haven't used that in a while and it's not on my radar
15:58:32 <Hecate> glguy: <3
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17:22:25 <dminuoso> Yeah, Haskell is not something for the minimalist type.
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17:25:41 <glguy> Hecate: I think the main thing is going to be to update it to work on alex-tools 0.6
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17:46:04 <Hecate> glguy :/9
17:46:07 <Hecate> damnit
17:46:14 <Hecate> glguy: thanks for merging
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18:12:56 <EvanR> Guest_Plonker, the C language development tools are also pretty chonky. If they come with your distribution, that may give a false impression of minimalism
18:13:33 <EvanR> anywhere you look it's hard to miss the tower of support software we rely on
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18:13:52 <EvanR> but I guess you have to look over the edge of the tower and it's scary
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19:05:33 <Guest_Plonker> While i don't disagree with you in general, i'm used to far more lightweight than GBs. gcc and build-essentials is maybe a couple hundred MB at most, on a linux-from-scratch (or equivalent). Then, once you can bootstrap C, you can get a simple Scheme Lisp in a single MB.
19:07:07 <Hecate> Guest_Plonker: which distro do you use btw?
19:07:34 <Guest_Plonker> Debian, mostly.
19:08:06 <Hecate> ok
19:10:29 <masterbuilder> Guest_Plonker: Do you mean the system package? It's under a GB for me
19:10:37 <masterbuilder> including libraries
19:10:54 <masterbuilder> But yeah get used to haskell eating up disk space
19:12:36 <Guest_Plonker> That's fine, if that's the way it has to be, though i still plan to look into MicroHs
19:12:46 <masterbuilder> By all means!
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20:29:27 <[exa]> MicroHs is not very production-like but it's extremely <3 lovely <3
20:33:32 <[exa]> actually its RTS has a small C interpreter for the combinators, but I found that might be completely unnecessary
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21:31:12 <dmj`> [exa]: how so
21:37:57 <raehik> I have a type synonym `type X :: (a, b, c) -> _`. GHC tells me I can't write `type X '(a, b, c) = _` because type declarations can't look like that. Is there any way around this?
21:43:24 <ncf> raehik: type family X (x :: (a, b, c)) :: Type where X '(a, b, c) = _
21:43:56 <raehik> ncf: yeah that's all I can think of. I can't use a type family here because I need to use this type synonym in a class instance :(
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21:51:19 <ncf> raehik: what are you trying to achieve?
21:52:48 <raehik> I wrote a type-level symbol parser lib that passes around parsers made of type-level tuples
21:52:56 <raehik> https://github.com/raehik/symparsec
21:53:50 <raehik> I want to permit reifying these type-level parsers, but that limits the form parsers can take. specifically, they can't be type families or "type synonym families" (use type families inside)
21:54:52 <raehik> doesn't work for combinator parsers because I need to "unwrap" inner parsers and can't do that as above :(
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All times are in UTC on 2024-05-12.