Logs on 2024-05-28 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 09:33:42 | <dminuoso> | Assume a tree representing say memory chunks. Leaf nodes may be Free or InUse, while intermediate nodes are Split. Is there some formal term for merging free blocks back together, as a kind defragmentation? |
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| 10:39:36 | <tomsmeding> | dminuoso: https://web.stanford.edu/class/archive/cs/cs107/cs107.1246/lectures/24/Lecture24.pdf "The process of combining adjacent free blocks is called coalescing." |
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| 10:40:16 | <dminuoso> | tomsmeding: Ahh, yeah, that seems to be the established term. |
| 10:40:19 | <dminuoso> | Thanks. |
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| 13:10:27 | <basicnpc> | Is there a haskell language extension that uses CoC type system? |
| 13:11:34 | <basicnpc> | (CoC in terms of the most expressible entry in the lambda cube https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_cube) |
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| 13:12:59 | <ncf> | dependent haskell isn't here yet |
| 13:13:17 | <ncf> | but agda exists and can extract to haskell :) |
| 13:14:05 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: what do you need exactly? |
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| 13:14:56 | <kuribas> | I'd say dependent types are the most expressive types, but ergonomics can vary between languages. |
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| 13:19:34 | <basicnpc> | ncf "Extract to haskell"? |
| 13:19:53 | <basicnpc> | kuribas Actually, I'm trying to add a good type system for a language I like. |
| 13:19:54 | <ncf> | https://github.com/agda/agda2hs or the GHC backend |
| 13:20:09 | <basicnpc> | And I wonder if I should aim for CoC, or even more. |
| 13:20:21 | <basicnpc> | "even more": for example.. pure type systems. |
| 13:21:11 | <basicnpc> | kuribas Dependent Type is one of the dimensions in the lambda cube. I wonder if the other dimensions are needed. |
| 13:21:31 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: adding a type system to an existing dynamic language not made with typing in mind is hard. |
| 13:21:40 | <danse-nr3> | seems misleading to model such topics like a single dimension where one can "aim at the top" |
| 13:21:57 | <basicnpc> | ncf Cool.. does agda2hs make agda a programming language for general purpose? |
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| 13:22:07 | <kuribas> | It is easier to create a new typed language using the existing language as inspiration. |
| 13:22:16 | <basicnpc> | kuribas That's the challenge :) It's a lisp so it's easier. |
| 13:22:32 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: which one? :-) |
| 13:22:35 | <kuribas> | clojure? |
| 13:22:37 | <basicnpc> | Common lisp. |
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| 13:22:58 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: https://coalton-lang.github.io/ |
| 13:23:03 | <basicnpc> | It will be a new language, but the interop with common lisp must be smooth. |
| 13:23:08 | <basicnpc> | coalton only has basic types |
| 13:23:15 | <basicnpc> | no dependent types.. no monad |
| 13:23:22 | <kuribas> | it has monads AFAIK |
| 13:23:31 | <basicnpc> | ?! |
| 13:23:31 | <lambdabot> | Maybe you meant: v @ ? . |
| 13:23:43 | <basicnpc> | (I don't know what v @ ? . mean.) |
| 13:24:13 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: https://github.com/coalton-lang/coalton/blob/main/docs/intro-to-coalton.md#builtin-typeclasses |
| 13:24:24 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: disclaimer: I never used coalton |
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| 13:25:18 | <basicnpc> | Hmm monads are mentioned. Good.. the doc is kept terse on them though. I should try using it. |
| 13:25:26 | <basicnpc> | But no, it doesn't have dependent types. |
| 13:25:50 | <basicnpc> | But that's fine. Before I even implement a stronger type system for common lisp, I want to know what are the practical possibilities. |
| 13:26:02 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: if you want dependent types, I would spend some time with idris. |
| 13:26:15 | <basicnpc> | So the questions - Is CoC good enough? Are the stronger type systems that improve expressibility (with examples)? |
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| 13:26:35 | <danse-nr3> | "good enough", repeating myself... |
| 13:26:37 | <danse-nr3> | seems misleading to model such topics like a single dimension where one can "aim at the top" |
| 13:27:02 | <basicnpc> | danse-nr3 what do you mean? |
| 13:27:42 | <danse-nr3> | these are complex tools developed organically over time to suit different purposes |
| 13:28:50 | <basicnpc> | And then now you have haskell that suffers from not having dependent types.. |
| 13:29:01 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: you could write an idris backend for common lisp. |
| 13:29:09 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: any interop will be done with the FFI. |
| 13:29:09 | danse-nr3 | gives up |
| 13:29:11 | <kuribas> | idris2 though. |
| 13:29:23 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: it would be the least effort IMO. |
| 13:29:39 | <basicnpc> | Does idris2 have full CoC? |
| 13:29:58 | <kuribas> | I don't know what full CoC means... |
| 13:30:14 | <kuribas> | idris2 is based on QTT |
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| 13:31:58 | <basicnpc> | kuribas Full CoC is where all 3 dimensions in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_cube are fulfilled. |
| 13:32:11 | <kuribas> | I'd say "yes", from the wikipedia definition. |
| 13:32:15 | <basicnpc> | types on terms, terms on types, types on types |
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| 13:34:44 | <ncf> | consider also learning about Martin-Löf type theory (on which Agda is based). IME nobody ever thinks about the "lambda cube" or pure type systems these days except people learning about dependent types from wikipedia |
| 13:34:44 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: idris2 was made to be backend agnostic, to make it easy to port. |
| 13:35:26 | <kuribas> | it's not lispy though. |
| 13:35:41 | <kuribas> | Perhaps you could make a lispy parser that generates idris2 AST. |
| 13:35:50 | <basicnpc> | A backend is scheme :-) Yeah, on this road I must get into idris2 at some point no matter what. |
| 13:36:38 | <basicnpc> | Is there any advantage for haskell to not have dependent types, except that it's hard to maintain backward compatibility? |
| 13:36:41 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: if you succeed, let me know, I'd be interested :) |
| 13:36:57 | <basicnpc> | (e.g. maybe having dependent types is going to slow down the compiler or the compiled code? just guesses) |
| 13:38:18 | <kuribas> | maybe... maybe not... |
| 13:38:45 | <kuribas> | at some point haskell will become the C++ of static functional languages. |
| 13:39:02 | <kuribas> | Maybe it already is... |
| 13:41:18 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: I am not against dependent types in haskell, but it adds a lot of complexity to the compiler, and becomes just another feature. |
| 13:41:38 | <kuribas> | I think exploring proper DT language is a better way, like idris2. |
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| 13:43:06 | <basicnpc> | There's a reddit post that says having dependent type systems like CoC makes side-effects difficult to have. |
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| 13:43:28 | <kuribas> | nope |
| 13:43:30 | <ncf> | wrong |
| 13:43:34 | <basicnpc> | Not sure how accurate it is.. don't we just wrap them in monads? https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/1aywa3m/why_is_calculus_of_constructions_not_used_more/ |
| 13:43:57 | <basicnpc> | ( I was referring to ianzen's answer. ) |
| 13:44:26 | <ncf> | having *non-termination* is the one that requires more effort than in haskell (some mechanism for coinduction, basically) |
| 13:44:57 | <ncf> | see e.g. https://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/60166/1/McBride_LNCS2015_Turing_completeness_totally_free.pdf or https://agda.github.io/agda-stdlib/master/README.IO.html |
| 13:45:40 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: lot's of myths around dependent types that get repeated. |
| 13:45:51 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: you just don't want sideeffects in types. |
| 13:46:14 | <basicnpc> | Yeah. There are lots of myths. How do I get to thinking of these independently? |
| 13:46:22 | <basicnpc> | Good academic surveys ever written? |
| 13:46:35 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: by learning and using idris2 :) |
| 13:46:47 | <basicnpc> | ncf non-termination? Wikipedia says CoC is strongly normalizable.. |
| 13:46:47 | <kuribas> | or agda/coq/... |
| 13:47:16 | <basicnpc> | kuribas Sounds like a nice way to start (I will choose idris2). |
| 13:47:25 | <ncf> | basicnpc: it is, but that doesn't prevent you from writing corecursive programs that represent endless computations |
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| 13:48:04 | <kuribas> | basicnpc: btw, most of the discussion occur on idris2 discord |
| 13:48:08 | <basicnpc> | What is "co"recursive? |
| 13:48:31 | <basicnpc> | kuribas Oh! Yeah, #idris doesn't have many people. Thanks for the hint! |
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| 19:28:30 | <tomsmeding> | this is a useful web page: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/GHC-status (spotted it in a mailing list post) |
| 19:28:54 | <tomsmeding> | (the 9.10 row is outdated because 9.10.1 is out, but close enough) |
| 19:29:07 | <geekosaur> | it's also in the #ghc channel/room topic |
| 19:29:18 | <tomsmeding> | ah, it is :) |
| 19:29:26 | <tomsmeding> | but many people aren't in there |
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| 19:32:59 | <sm> | nice one, let's remember it |
| 19:33:14 | <sm> | @where+ ghc-status https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/wikis/GHC-status |
| 19:33:15 | <lambdabot> | I will never forget. |
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| 19:51:01 | <sm> | https://haskell-links.org/ghc-status |
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| 20:00:12 | <sm> | @where+ haskell-for-the-elm-enthusiast https://blog.noredink.com/post/658510851000713216/haskell-for-the-elm-enthusiast |
| 20:00:12 | <lambdabot> | It is forever etched in my memory. |
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