Logs on 2024-06-01 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 03:43:05 | <mjrosenb> | no takers on my nix/ghc+js question? |
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| 03:59:33 | <EvanR> | can you please repeat the question |
| 04:01:12 | <Lears> | mjrosenb: It wasn't very precisely posed. All I can say is that running the `nix-shell` invocation at the top of the readme doesn't produce any errors on my machine (though I did kill it for taking too long). |
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| 04:28:29 | <mjrosenb> | Lears: the one for the javascript? `nix-shell ~/ghc.nix --arg withEMSDK true`? |
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| 04:41:13 | <Lears> | mjrosenb: No, I only tried the one that didn't require cloning the repo. But poking around a bit more, I guess you either want `nix-shell ~/ghc.nix/shell.nix --arg withEMSDK true` or `nix-shell ~/ghc.nix --attr devShells.<system>.default --arg withEMSDK true`. |
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| 04:45:36 | <Lears> | In the "Legacy nix-commands support" section it notes "be careful to specify the path to the shell.nix, not to the default.nix." They didn't heed their own advice. |
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| 09:33:56 | <lxsameer> | b |
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| 13:12:34 | <Midjak> | Hi |
| 13:13:44 | <Midjak> | Is it possible to make as a subset of Integer ? say a type on the range 0-42 or 3-9 |
| 13:14:12 | <Midjak> | *a type as a subset of integer |
| 13:15:55 | <Midjak> | There is a library range but I would like to make my own type |
| 13:16:47 | <jackdk> | A library like refined or rerefined is probably your best best, if you're talking about "integer known to be within bounds" and not "interval arithmetic" |
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| 13:19:33 | <Midjak> | thanks. I am not sure about the difference between this two concepts |
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| 13:20:08 | <Midjak> | I am looking refined |
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| 13:21:45 | <Midjak> | There is no type for Zn modulo sets ? it's not necessarily what I'm looking for, but I'm curious to know if it exists. |
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| 13:24:01 | <Midjak> | a type in haskell for ring of integer modulo m I mean |
| 13:24:16 | <Midjak> | (have just checked) |
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| 13:25:49 | <Midjak> | refined looks what I want anyway |
| 13:26:54 | <ncf> | there's a few libraries for modular arithmetic |
| 13:27:06 | <Midjak> | ok |
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| 13:32:21 | <Midjak> | I found this one https://hackage.haskell.org/package/modular-arithmetic-2.0.0.3/docs/Data-Modular.html interesting |
| 13:32:31 | <Midjak> | thank you |
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| 16:15:56 | <lxsameer> | do you have anything against using the effectful library? |
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| 16:42:01 | <yin> | Midjak: data N = N0 | N1 | N2 | N3 | N4 | N5 | N6 | N7 | N8 | N9 | N10 | N11 | N12 | N13 | N14 | N15 | N16 | N17 | N18 | N19 | N20 | N21 | N22 | N23 | N24 | N25 | N26 | N27 | N28 | N29 | N30 | N31 | N32 | N33 | N34 | N35 | N36 | N37 | N38 | N39 | N40 | N41 | N42 |
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| 16:42:52 | <danza> | do you have anything against it lxsameer? |
| 16:44:35 | <lxsameer> | danza: no, but I'm a haskell noob |
| 16:44:57 | <lxsameer> | I want to know whether it has any downsides or things like that |
| 16:45:21 | <danza> | i guess you answered yourself |
| 16:45:44 | <lxsameer> | danza: how? |
| 16:46:33 | <glguy> | lxsameer: I don't have anything "against" it, but I certainly wouldn't use it without a compelling reason that I haven't had yet. |
| 16:47:26 | <lxsameer> | glguy: interesting. Do you manually implement the effect system? |
| 16:47:34 | <glguy> | no |
| 16:47:55 | <lxsameer> | glguy: what do you use? mtl? |
| 16:47:58 | <yin> | Midjak: on a more serious note, you can look into refinement types: https://goto.ucsd.edu/~nvazou/refinement_types_for_haskell.pdf |
| 16:48:33 | <glguy> | lxsameer: I don't use mtl. If I'm using transformers is for a very local purpose or behind a newtype to help build an application-specific abstraction. |
| 16:49:12 | <lxsameer> | ah I see |
| 16:52:52 | <monochrom> | I think that danza means that a beginner need not worry about effect systems so early. |
| 16:53:17 | <lxsameer> | thank you |
| 16:53:52 | <monochrom> | But I can also see that in "the real world" there is a religion that tells beginners to rush ahead, skip basics, jump straight to "best practice of advanced most elite experts". |
| 16:54:31 | <lxsameer> | I see what you mean |
| 16:54:53 | <glguy> | Though in this case complex effect systems aren't a best practice for elite experts though they're a more advanced topic |
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| 16:55:15 | <monochrom> | For example how the js and node.js people, the rust people, the java people, ... everyone, tell beginners "day 1: learn our package system, learn our project file format". As if the priority is not to learn the language itself first. |
| 16:56:16 | <EvanR> | because all languages are the same and only differ in the library support community and hype train |
| 16:56:17 | <Midjak> | thanks yin I will read this paper. I found this article which give a good idea of refinement types http://nikita-volkov.github.io/refined/ But I will read this paper thank you |
| 16:56:43 | <EvanR> | horse racing and we're basing all wagers on the name of the horse xD |
| 16:57:53 | <monochrom> | I can see the attraction of that religion. Many beginners expect to just cargo-cult an existing complete project and just change 5 lines of code. |
| 16:58:06 | <yin> | Midjak: depending on the current state of dependent haskell (which i'm not sure about) you can also explore some interesting type-level possibilites |
| 16:58:30 | <monochrom> | It's a quick way of making money. I just don't subscribe to that attitude. |
| 16:58:57 | <Midjak> | Yes I'm just starting to familiarize myself with newtype, so I think I'm going to make some progress here. |
| 16:59:40 | <danza> | the rest of the beginners just expect to click the right buttons on what they cargo-culted long ago |
| 17:00:19 | <Midjak> | cargo is a good package system :-) |
| 17:01:00 | <Midjak> | just kidding of course |
| 17:01:12 | <danza> | careful you are fueling the hyped-package-systems hypothesis |
| 17:02:14 | <danza> | just thrashing of course |
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| 17:06:45 | <danza> | i don't know, i feel a bit odd to mention hype about package systems. Maybe there is something i am missing here, but they seem to be that type of infrastructure that hardly gets undeserved credit? |
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| 17:07:43 | <monochrom> | I am not against package systems. I am against s/learn/cargo-cult/ |
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| 17:08:55 | <danza> | but some tools are designed not to require learning |
| 17:09:01 | <monochrom> | Package systems get lateral damage from me because, rightfully, a serious project is very likely to need 100 libraries from the community repo. But then cargo-culting implies that the beginner mimics that too. |
| 17:09:11 | <Midjak> | I don't feel most of beginner refuse to learn and prefer apply recipe from experts. It's not my case anyway |
| 17:09:18 | <EvanR> | package systems, cargo culting, I see what you did there |
| 17:09:51 | <monochrom> | Not my fault that the rust people chose that name. It's their pun. :) |
| 17:10:10 | <Midjak> | good documentation is just hard to find |
| 17:10:30 | <monochrom> | And even when I speak against cargo-culting I am sure I can stop no one. |
| 17:10:45 | <Midjak> | maybe for this reason |
| 17:10:50 | <monochrom> | So, s/some tools/some ways of life/ |
| 17:11:32 | <danza> | the number of libraries depends on their granularity and, albeit "library" as a concept was created when they used to be bigger, i see no reason why they would forever stay so |
| 17:12:33 | <monochrom> | No, Midjak, IMO that's the effect not the cause. First, a couple decades ago we got an influx of people who didn't want to learn, and they became the majority. Then, with no market for good docs, good docs went extinct. |
| 17:13:33 | <danza> | it's sad but i must recall there haven't really been many incentives for free quality |
| 17:14:36 | <Midjak> | yes too bad. the problem is also the publishing crisis caused by copying. It's a real problem. 10 years ago, we had some very good books. |
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| 17:17:18 | <danza_> | do you think that was caused by copying? Where by "copying" you mean? |
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| 17:18:42 | <Midjak> | I mean book are easy to find in their numeric version on internet. So authors and editors have no interest to publish book |
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| 17:19:23 | <lxsameer> | EvanR: monochrom thanks for the insight folks. To share my point of view as an haskell noob. I value experience of others. I like to have different views on things from libs to lang features it helps me grow |
| 17:20:21 | <danza_> | i see, i am a bit skeptical about that analysis Midjak |
| 17:22:15 | <Midjak> | On the other hand, there were a lot of bad books back then too. |
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| 17:26:17 | <Midjak> | I don't know I have the feeling I'm running out of them, but on the other hand I'm becoming more and more demanding. |
| 17:28:21 | <Midjak> | In any case, there are people who really want to learn, and I'm one of them. |
| 17:29:45 | <danza_> | i am glad for you, and bad books is hardly going to be a problem. Literature shrinks slowly |
| 17:31:30 | <Midjak> | depends the subject. Sure theory doesn't need to have a book every year |
| 17:33:25 | <danza_> | i meant that the pace at with humanity loses track of literary records is slow currently. Slower that the pace at which forms of life cease to exist for instance |
| 17:33:34 | <Midjak> | Haskell has very good free resource on internet to learn too |
| 17:34:36 | <danza_> | *at which |
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| 17:35:20 | <Midjak> | it's not possible... humanity is form of life |
| 17:35:35 | <Midjak> | or maybe I misunderstood |
| 17:36:12 | <EvanR> | the search for intelligent life on earth continues |
| 17:38:59 | <Midjak> | Unless we envisage systems capable of maintaining themselves without humans and retaining the accumulated knowledge. |
| 17:39:05 | <danza_> | i wonder whether Darwin had ever imagined the principle of evolutive selection getting flipped, but someone did after him: too eager predators do not end well |
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| 17:40:39 | <Midjak> | I think it tends towards equilibrium - there's always some prey that survives and the population regulates itself naturally. |
| 17:41:03 | <Midjak> | maybe that's what we're experiencing right now. |
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| 17:41:44 | <haskellbridge> | <zwro> the logistic fmap |
| 17:42:12 | <danza_> | that sounds nice only because we can easily think of animals without empathy, therefore not worrying about turbolences in their balances |
| 17:42:38 | <monochrom> | lxsameer: Effect systems, especially those emphaszing algebraic effects, are poised to be the next important concept, I think. No doubt you will have to learn it one day. But they require you to learn basic concepts first. |
| 17:43:53 | <lxsameer> | monochrom: like what? |
| 17:44:04 | <monochrom> | types and continuations. |
| 17:45:52 | <danza_> | huh types and continuations on the same -basicity- -basicality- (okay i don't know how to spell this) line? |
| 17:46:40 | <monochrom> | OK! s/basic/prerequisite/ better? |
| 17:47:39 | <lxsameer> | ok, i know about them. obviously it might not be the right level of understanding. But I'm familiar with type theory in and a bit of category theory as well |
| 17:47:39 | <danza_> | continuations are not even definable in a way i find satisfying, and i never feel the need for the concept. Whereas types... |
| 17:48:16 | <Midjak> | too bad I was just about to ask |
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| 17:50:08 | <Midjak> | do you talk this continaution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation-passing_style ? |
| 17:50:30 | haskellbridge | zwro https://blog.poisson.chat/posts/2019-10-27-continuation-submonads.html |
| 17:50:35 | <monochrom> | Perhaps that's just because it's broad and vague. In every context, for every subclass apprioriate for that context, there is a precise definition. But then you get a hundred different definitions and they all look different. |
| 17:50:58 | <monochrom> | (while annoying they still feel like the same idea) |
| 17:51:27 | <Midjak> | next chapter on my reading for me |
| 17:51:48 | <Midjak> | I'm getting there |
| 17:52:16 | <haskellbridge> | <zwro> i've been "getting there" for years |
| 17:52:23 | <haskellbridge> | <zwro> there's no bottom |
| 17:53:10 | <monochrom> | For example, suppose you stay at the high level of lambda calculus terms. Suppose you have also chosen an evaluation order, and it is deterministic. Then every lambda term is uniquely factorable as redex and "the rest". Definition: continuation = "the rest", aka "context". |
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| 17:53:43 | <monochrom> | OTOH, if you're at the asm level, then continuation is your stack and maybe also current register values. |
| 17:53:55 | <Midjak> | well I am on the very beginning of my dunning krugger curve |
| 17:54:12 | <monochrom> | And then there are delimited continuations etc etc. |
| 17:54:22 | <andrewboltachev> | geekosaur: just FYI yesterday's issue was caused by this line, which is definitely extra. The computation has been doubling or increasing even more, so on big pieces of data it was going out of memory (and time) https://github.com/andrewboltachev/matcher/blob/master/src/Logicore/Matcher/Core.hs#L1835 |
| 17:55:38 | <danza_> | it almost sounds like you are chatting about recursion monochrom |
| 17:58:14 | <monochrom> | That would be you identifying stack with recursion. I used to do that too. Not any more. |
| 17:58:43 | <danza_> | "stack"? |
| 17:59:08 | <monochrom> | If you write code in CPS then defunctionalize it, you get a stack. |
| 18:01:23 | <danza_> | dunno. Just a stack and recursion are two quite distinct things to me |
| 18:02:18 | <monochrom> | http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~pszgmh/bib.html#cutting shows an example. (Although, the purpose is to then tell you how to skip both CPS-transform and defunctionalization. But you can look into its references and find older Hutton papers with more examples.) |
| 18:04:13 | <danza_> | it starts from a concept, continuation-passing-style, that never really captured my attention. Sorry got to go now, thanks anyway |
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| 18:06:27 | <monochrom> | Well I was not impressed by CPS either until that and "how to use CPS plus trampolining to work around stack limit in JS" |
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| 18:07:15 | <Midjak> | yes it's essential in FP with JS |
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| 18:08:21 | <danza_> | meh... real life will wait i guess, why do i do this? |
| 18:08:31 | <Midjak> | For my part, I understood that lazy evaluation solved many of these problems in Haskell |
| 18:08:47 | <monochrom> | It's a beautiful theory! I don't have to use it to like it. :) |
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| 18:11:18 | <danza_> | oh right... i am being late just to write that trampolining seems sufficient, i will skip the continuation passing style. And yeah i have to use it in order to like it, can't afford liking all the theories with no use unfortunately |
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All times are in UTC on 2024-06-01.