Logs on 2024-06-07 (liberachat/#haskell)
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| 01:27:26 | <dibblego> | does this parser exist in parsec? https://gist.github.com/tonymorris/80b1b11b31a90ccfdb6bbb4deaa5eea9 |
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| 01:36:29 | <glguy> | I'd be quite surprised if it was |
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| 02:06:14 | <haetsal> | The Haskell channel at Freenode seems dead |
| 02:07:03 | <geekosaur> | …it exists? |
| 02:09:52 | <monochrom> | Whenever there is an observer, it exists. This is known as the Uncertainty Principle. >:) |
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| 02:28:58 | <davean> | Freenode exists? |
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| 02:32:44 | <probie> | I think they probably went there because monochrom linked his page on Haskell learning resources which still mentions it |
| 02:33:17 | <monochrom> | Oh! Hrm. |
| 02:33:42 | <monochrom> | OK I'll change it. |
| 02:35:15 | <monochrom> | Updated! |
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| 02:35:35 | <davean> | monochrom: You're why freenode still exists? |
| 02:36:00 | <monochrom> | Hahaha "I have the power!" |
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| 02:46:42 | <glguy> | Is there a package that gives a higher level to these primitives that isn't a full-on effects package? https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-prim-0.11.0/docs/GHC-Prim.html#g:24 |
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| 03:18:36 | <glguy> | Turns out you can make UnboxedTuple code harder to read with TupleSections. For some reason I hadn't guessed that those work together |
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| 03:39:12 | <davean> | glguy: oooh. I mean I do love my some TupleSections. I'm also preferential to UnboxedTuples ... normally not in abstract enough stuff I need TupleSections but I can change that ... |
| 03:49:20 | <haetsal> | Could I get the link to monochrom's Haskell learning resource? |
| 03:49:55 | <probie> | http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/learn-sources.html |
| 03:51:10 | <glguy> | Playing with the delimited continuations stuff I made something like Lua's coroutine module https://github.com/glguy/cc-demo/blob/main/app/Main.hs |
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| 03:52:47 | <haetsal> | https://learnyouahaskell.com led me to the haskell@Freenode |
| 03:53:40 | <geekosaur> | yeh, that hasn't been updated in a decade or so |
| 03:54:10 | <geekosaur> | there was a project to update it but it died afaict |
| 03:56:16 | <haetsal> | Is it that old? you don't recommend to learn from it? |
| 03:58:44 | <geekosaur> | fairly old, yes. 2014ish, so yes, a decade |
| 03:59:05 | <geekosaur> | haskell has changed a fair bit since then |
| 03:59:30 | <geekosaur> | and of course it won't know about the freenodepocalypse 3 years ago |
| 03:59:51 | <glguy> | geekosaur: for the basics do you think that much of the book is actual out of date? |
| 03:59:56 | <glguy> | does it go into a bunch of libraries? |
| 04:00:38 | <glguy> | Maybe it predates the Foldable prelude? |
| 04:00:43 | <geekosaur> | Num losing Eq and Show, Functor/Applicative/Monad, Foldable/Traversable at least (wherein a bunch of Prelude functions' type signatures changed) |
| 04:02:59 | <geekosaur> | Num losing Eq means that any function example with numeric literal patterns will need an explicit Eq constraint in its type signature, iirc |
| 04:05:01 | <geekosaur> | not absolutely certain about LYAH but Graham Hutton and Richard Bird both needed to make quite a few changes to new editions of their books |
| 04:16:20 | <geekosaur> | …huh, those happened earlier than I thought, I guess it's only missing FTP |
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| 04:16:38 | <geekosaur> | somehow the years get compressed together as I get older 😛 |
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| 04:31:20 | <davean> | What are the modern learning materials? I've not paid attention |
| 04:36:31 | glguy | has no idea |
| 04:40:23 | <probie> | I wonder if there is actually a gap here that needs to be filled |
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| 05:38:43 | <geekosaur> | @where wikibook |
| 05:38:44 | <lambdabot> | http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell |
| 05:38:54 | <geekosaur> | comes well recommended and is kept up to date |
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| 08:37:19 | <xam> | test |
| 08:38:00 | <juri_> | fail |
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| 09:45:31 | <yin> | will we see Ring/Num ? |
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| 09:47:31 | <yin> | i hope to see the death of "Int for everything" |
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| 09:51:55 | <kuribas> | Int is efficient. |
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| 09:54:33 | <dminuoso> | yin: Yeah, we hopefully switch to Integer for everything. You can nicely pack UTF8 encoded Text into an Integer! |
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| 09:55:18 | <dminuoso> | But honestly, the death of Int for everything needs an answer for the poor casting reality of our number system. |
| 09:55:54 | <dminuoso> | Int for everything is not really better than "Word16, Word32 and Int8 here and there", because those realistically force you to put `fromIntegral` everywhere. |
| 09:55:56 | <dminuoso> | Which is honestly a downgrade. |
| 09:56:38 | <yin> | i meant using Word where negative values don't make sense (like length for example) |
| 09:57:11 | <dminuoso> | yin: Yes, and if you have a function that wants `Int`, that switch costs you an additional fromIntegral, at realistically no gain. |
| 09:57:33 | <dminuoso> | length *cant* produce a negative number, the fact that its representable in Int is not a practical issue. |
| 09:57:46 | <kuribas> | Int<n> usually doesn't give a performance benefit, unless you can pack them together |
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| 09:58:44 | <dminuoso> | yin: Besides, consider the mere amount of breakage of switching length like that. Willing to bet you will break a third of all of hackage minimum/ |
| 09:59:20 | <yin> | genericLength exists |
| 09:59:36 | <yin> | you know what i mean |
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| 10:00:27 | <dminuoso> | Im just saying that I dont think turning it into Word32 or some equivalent will have any meaningful positive impact/ |
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| 10:01:05 | <kuribas> | Int<n> Word<n> can also be used when serializing. |
| 10:01:06 | <dminuoso> | And making it polymorphic is a far more severe variant of doing fromIntegral yourself |
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| 10:01:44 | <dminuoso> | Because that `length foo` for your 300 element list would easily and silently fit into a Word8b |
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| 10:02:34 | <dminuoso> | If you do it polymorphic, it sucks. If you turn it into a non-negative type, you will have to fromIntegral manually - which has the polymorphism problem ontop of needing manual intervention on lots of call sites. |
| 10:02:46 | <yin> | wait |
| 10:03:13 | <yin> | why would we always need fromInteger? |
| 10:03:39 | <dminuoso> | Because the chance is you will need to consume this Word somewhere. |
| 10:03:45 | <dminuoso> | :t replicateM |
| 10:03:46 | <lambdabot> | Applicative m => Int -> m a -> m [a] |
| 10:04:13 | <dminuoso> | Any kind of fitting into existing library code, be it a package on hackage or just base - will likely require you to cast it somehow anyway. |
| 10:04:42 | <yin> | dminuoso: yes, but in a world where Int is not used for everything, chances are if yiu're getting a Word, you'll want to consume it as a Word |
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| 10:05:45 | <yin> | `drop (length xs) ys` |
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| 10:06:46 | <dminuoso> | Interestingly, there is even arguments why keeping those signed could be beneficial |
| 10:07:11 | <yin> | you got my attention |
| 10:08:41 | <dminuoso> | I think golang folks have some arguments along the lines of underflows or overflows having less of a serious impact if your counter is signed. |
| 10:08:59 | <dminuoso> | I dont necessarily share that position, just highlighting other perspectives. |
| 10:09:23 | <yin> | i dont share it too |
| 10:09:25 | <dminuoso> | Sorry, not the a counter but say some delimiting variable |
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| 10:14:15 | <yin> | anyways I think they're separate domains (signed and unsigned) and if you find yourself converting between one and the other you're doing something wrong |
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| 10:14:54 | <yin> | or the libraries you're using are (String vs Text i'm looking at you) |
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| 10:16:25 | <yin> | s/converting/having to convert all the time |
| 10:16:55 | <dminuoso> | yin: The problem arises the moment you have *multiple* domains. |
| 10:17:07 | <dminuoso> | The problem with String and Text is just that there is two/ |
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| 10:17:33 | <dminuoso> | With numeric types, having multiple types is pretty much part of the equation |
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| 10:20:05 | <yin> | meh... i wish Nat was performant |
| 10:23:41 | <yin> | make everything an ADT |
| 10:23:46 | <probie> | Numeric types are a headache. Take inspiration from JS and use `Double` everywhere |
| 10:24:26 | <yin> | let the compiler sort it out |
| 10:25:38 | <probie> | at the end of the day, what I really want for numerics are refinement types |
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| 10:27:51 | <yin> | but why refinement over Word? at least Word is performant |
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| 10:29:43 | <yin> | you want negative numbers? sure, make `zero :: Word = div maxBound 2 |
| 10:31:09 | <probie> | yin: and that's going to be more performant now that addition isn't just the relevant add instruction on my CPU? |
| 10:31:17 | <yin> | this happens mostly in our heads anyway |
| 10:32:35 | <yin> | probie: wdym? |
| 10:32:56 | <probie> | > (2 :: Word) + (2 :: Word) |
| 10:32:58 | <lambdabot> | 4 |
| 10:33:20 | <probie> | > let zero = div maxBound 2 in (2 :: Word + zero) + (2 :: Word + zero) - zero |
| 10:33:21 | <lambdabot> | error: |
| 10:33:21 | <lambdabot> | Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘+’error: |
| 10:33:21 | <lambdabot> | Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘+’ |
| 10:33:43 | <probie> | > let zero = div maxBound 2 in ((2 :: Word) + zero) + ((2 :: Word) + zero) - zero |
| 10:33:45 | <lambdabot> | 9223372036854775811 |
| 10:35:37 | <yin> | let two = zero + 2 |
| 10:35:46 | <yin> | :) |
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| 10:37:41 | <yin> | (i meant do it in your head of course. the computer has no notion of negative numbers |
| 10:37:44 | <yin> | ) |
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| 10:57:39 | <int-e> | yin: That's not correct at the ISA level; floating point values have sign bits. Integer arithmetic is sign aware for comparisons at least; also for conversion to floating point, and for multiplication for architectures that offer a word x word -> double word multiplication operation. |
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| 11:58:11 | <yin> | that's true |
| 12:00:19 | <yin> | but at that level it becomes another reason I dislike "Int for everything" |
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| 15:02:05 | <EvanR> | the negative flag is set if the result is negative |
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| 17:54:54 | <lxsameer> | hey folks, I was looking at the System.OsPath. What is the proper way to convert a value of type OsPath to let's say, ByteString? |
| 17:58:03 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> lxsameer: https://hasufell.github.io/posts/2024-05-07-ultimate-string-guide.html |
| 17:58:24 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> What is the ByteString supposed to be? Why convert? |
| 17:58:48 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> OsPath is already byte string basically |
| 17:59:18 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> And has all the API bytestring does |
| 17:59:49 | <lxsameer> | cool thank you |
| 18:07:21 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> lxsameer: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/os-string-2.0.3/docs/System-OsString.html |
| 18:10:00 | <lxsameer> | I think my problem is that, I don't know how to convert these types to make the compiler happy, even though OsPath is ShortByteString under the hood |
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| 18:15:10 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> lxsameer: Example? |
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| 18:17:14 | <lxsameer> | maerwald: https://dpaste.com/FY3G8T9AM#line-3 |
| 18:17:34 | <lxsameer> | Utf8 is a newtype on Bytestring |
| 18:17:53 | <lxsameer> | and OsPath is a shortbytestring under the hood |
| 18:18:04 | <lxsameer> | but they are different types to the compiler |
| 18:18:14 | ← | L29Ah parts (~L29Ah@wikipedia/L29Ah) () |
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| 18:21:30 | <mauke> | can you assume posix? |
| 18:21:48 | <EvanR> | we have OsString now too? |
| 18:22:20 | <EvanR> | we already have string zoo now it's headed towards menagerie! |
| 18:22:51 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> EvanR: ? |
| 18:22:59 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> lxsameer: what type is Config? |
| 18:23:29 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> EvanR: read https://hasufell.github.io/posts/2024-05-07-ultimate-string-guide.html#too-many-strings :p |
| 18:23:42 | <EvanR> | is this where the FilePath fiasco ended up |
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| 18:25:08 | <lxsameer> | mauke: yeah, it will be running on Linux all the time |
| 18:27:09 | <lxsameer> | maerwald: config is just a record type that contains to OsPath fields, dbName and dbPath |
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| 18:27:42 | <mauke> | one approach: use https://hackage.haskell.org/package/os-string-2.0.2/docs/System-OsString-Internal-Types.html to break open the abstraction, then call fromShort to get a ByteString |
| 18:28:27 | <lxsameer> | mauke: thanks, let me read it |
| 18:31:47 | <lxsameer> | all these string types are pretty confusing :D |
| 18:34:46 | <EvanR> | the one string which it seems you could get away with losing is String... but at this point it's not clear that would be enough of a benefit considering you still have like 8 others and it would break everything |
| 18:35:37 | <EvanR> | I actually appreciate having string types makes sense, unlike e.g. see history of ruby |
| 18:37:15 | <lxsameer> | EvanR: I'm new to haskell, but I think at least a standard mechanism to convert all these types to a common low level abstraction on a sequence of bytes is missing here |
| 18:37:24 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> lxsameer: Why do you need ShortByteString? |
| 18:37:50 | <lxsameer> | maerwald: I don't to be honest, it's what OsPath is using |
| 18:38:37 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> You should not be reaching for Internals. |
| 18:39:05 | <EvanR> | lxsameer, they represent different things. To convert a string (text) to a list of bytes, you have to choose an encoding |
| 18:39:09 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> The encoding ou ByteString's are different across platforms. Windows is UCS-2, unix is Word8 |
| 18:39:47 | <EvanR> | meanwhile low level OsPath is already encoded ^ |
| 18:40:52 | <lxsameer> | EvanR: yeah, I'm aware of that. but i think a standard is missing. for example let's say every types has to implement a encode decode function. something like that |
| 18:40:53 | <EvanR> | and there are issues reencoding it because platform |
| 18:41:11 | <EvanR> | yeah specifically for FilePath-related strings, you can't encode decode it |
| 18:41:27 | <EvanR> | it's been a mess |
| 18:41:45 | <lxsameer> | it seems like it :P |
| 18:42:55 | <EvanR> | stuff like amazon gets away with this by treating paths as ByteString, and historically everyone uses ByteString for everything and maintains facts about encoding and other important properties in the developers memory xD |
| 18:43:34 | <lxsameer> | I don't blame them |
| 18:44:28 | <lxsameer> | for example in my case, it's a small hobby project. I don't want to spend time on figuring this thing out. I'll be like, i just use strings and keep in mind that it has limitations :D |
| 18:44:46 | <EvanR> | usually, it makes it hard to refactor code when you have 1000 proofs of correctness in your head only |
| 18:45:19 | <EvanR> | but it adds cost to write the code in the first place, esp without experience |
| 18:45:31 | <EvanR> | I mean, having a type system |
| 18:46:03 | <mauke> | lxsameer: filenames are tricky because on some platforms they're text and on others they're bytes |
| 18:46:14 | <mauke> | so you can't really have a common encode/decode interface |
| 18:47:42 | <lxsameer> | Talking of proofs and correctness. what is the relationship of haskell and curry-howard correspondance? |
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| 18:47:45 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> A ByteString does not carry encoding information. So the question how to turn it into OsString cannot be answered. |
| 18:47:51 | <lxsameer> | mauke: Ahhh I see |
| 18:48:03 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> You can just shove it ie |
| 18:48:08 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> *in |
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| 18:48:20 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> But the ByteString might come from a windows machine |
| 18:48:30 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> And was sent to a unix machine |
| 18:48:49 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> And now you're expecting UTF-16 to compare with UTF-8 or something similar |
| 18:49:29 | <EvanR> | "just use string (bytes) and remember the limitations" stems from a previous era where everything is ascii text, and only valid when you have utf-8 everywhere |
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| 18:49:39 | <lxsameer> | yeah I get it. I never used windows, but I'm wondering how does other langs handle this situation |
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| 18:49:47 | <EvanR> | badly, for the most part xD |
| 18:49:54 | <EvanR> | but rust does have something like OsPath apparently |
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| 18:50:17 | <lxsameer> | ok so it's a mess everywhere :)) |
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| 18:50:42 | <lxsameer> | EvanR: do you use Rust as well ? |
| 18:50:52 | <EvanR> | what ruby calls a string is actually a bytestring and holds an encoding tag which often gets out of whack and screws things up |
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| 18:51:12 | <haskellbridge> | <Kyle Butt> Use Text for textual data and ByteString for bytes. Encode/Decode at the lowest level possible, and if the bytes represent something, prefer a newtype. |
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| 18:51:18 | <EvanR> | because people don't respect it and sometimes don't even know the difference between bytes and characters |
| 18:51:21 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> EvanR: Yes, which is morally the same as Haskell OsString |
| 18:51:51 | <lxsameer> | Kyle Butt: hey I use Text everywhere I can |
| 18:52:15 | <mauke> | ah, got it. just never touch the file system :-) |
| 18:52:36 | <EvanR> | use ipfs only |
| 18:53:35 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> Although rust uses WTF-8 |
| 18:54:15 | <EvanR> | is that a funny way to specify UTF-16 |
| 18:54:57 | <mauke> | personally I think "WTF-8" should refer to doubly-encoded text |
| 18:55:32 | <mauke> | encode_utf8 . encode_utf8 |
| 18:55:52 | <EvanR> | use 3 for good measure |
| 18:56:32 | <EvanR> | UUU-8 |
| 18:57:10 | <lxsameer> | I thought WTF-8 is a joke, but it's legit :D |
| 18:57:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Kyle Butt> Speaking of hackery, the ETAG specification allows for certain ranges of characters, but also allows for any character with the high bit set. |
| 18:57:29 | <haskellbridge> | So I wrote some code to take binary hash tags and stuff them in 7 bits with the high bit set. |
| 18:58:25 | <monochrom> | :( |
| 18:58:35 | <EvanR> | what does a character with the high bit set mean |
| 18:58:44 | <EvanR> | extended ascii? |
| 18:59:10 | <haskellbridge> | <Kyle Butt> Sorry, I should have said: "byte with the high bit set". |
| 18:59:39 | <mauke> | a byte >= 128 |
| 18:59:56 | <haskellbridge> | <Kyle Butt> The ETAG header is specified in bytes, not in an encoding. |
| 19:00:11 | <haskellbridge> | <Kyle Butt> Monochrom, why :( ? |
| 19:00:44 | <monochrom> | because it's a hackery that makes baby jesus cry :) |
| 19:01:27 | <haskellbridge> | <Kyle Butt> ETAG's are opaque, and the user never sees them. Why not save on bandwidth? |
| 19:01:58 | <EvanR> | deflate the etag then? |
| 19:02:07 | <EvanR> | xD |
| 19:02:25 | <EvanR> | (your http is automagically compressed is it) |
| 19:02:30 | <EvanR> | isn't* |
| 19:03:10 | <haskellbridge> | <Kyle Butt> The http headers aren't compressed, even if the content-encoding is compressed. |
| 19:03:59 | <monochrom> | Oh, user never sees them? OK nevermind. :) |
| 19:04:06 | <mauke> | if you wrap the HTTP response in another HTTP response, you can compress the headers in the body |
| 19:04:17 | <EvanR> | wrap it 3 times for good measure |
| 19:04:39 | <monochrom> | Ugh is that a monad? |
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| 19:04:55 | <monochrom> | join :: HTTP (HTTP a) -> HTTP a |
| 19:06:23 | <dmj`> | we put an HTTP in your HTTP so you can HTTP while you HTTP |
| 19:06:51 | <monochrom> | :) |
| 19:07:18 | <EvanR> | within the HTTP monad you can yield the answer by setting the content stream, making the return value redundant, and so it's actually a monoid |
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| 21:46:39 | <haskellbridge> | <maerwald> @irc_libera.chat_lxsameer:kf8nh.com: It's an implementation detail. WTF-8 is not a "user exposed" encoding |
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