Logs on 2024-06-09 (liberachat/#haskell)
| 00:00:49 | <monochrom> | But I guess that's exactly what most programmers want. |
| 00:01:40 | <EvanR> | what insight that may contain is fogged over by stuff like UML, what professionals actually use to explain code xD |
| 00:01:59 | <EvanR> | according to very large books |
| 00:02:00 | <monochrom> | Every other profession --- accounting, medicine, law, engineering --- optimize for getting things to actually work, and if that means something is counterintuitive, so be it. |
| 00:02:45 | <monochrom> | Programming is about the only field that wants to be called "professional" even "engineering", but naively insists on "intuitive". |
| 00:02:50 | <monochrom> | No, you can't have both. |
| 00:03:49 | <geekosaur> | ever heard of sanitation engineers? (there is a certain amount of commonality there, speaking cynically) |
| 00:04:04 | <monochrom> | Like, even astrology doesn't claim to be intuitive. Sleep on that. |
| 00:04:19 | <EvanR> | if you tell a bartender you're qualified because you have a degree in bartending school they will laugh. I'm not sure if we're that far yet |
| 00:04:30 | <EvanR> | a degree from* |
| 00:05:17 | <EvanR> | that far gone ... or perhaps that far advanced |
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| 00:08:36 | <ncf> | i have a feeling that when people say stuff like "code should be easy to explain to normal people" they mean "code should be easy to explain to imperative programmers" |
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| 00:15:24 | <mauke> | professional math relies on intuition |
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| 00:18:32 | <dolio> | Not on the intuition of non-mathematicians. |
| 00:19:48 | <Leary> | hololeap: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorbing_element>. `Mode` ~ `Annihilate Any` where `data Annihilate a = Zero | NonZero a; instance Semigroup a => Semigroup (Annihilate a) where { NonZero a <> NonZero b = NonZero (a <> b); _ <> _ = Zero }; instance Monoid a => Monoid (Anihilate a) where { mempty = NonZero mempty }`. |
| 00:20:10 | <Leary> | Unfortunately, since DerivingVia is not sufficiently advanced, this won't actually help you improve your code. |
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| 00:33:49 | <hololeap> | ok, so HelpMode here is the absorbing element. I had a feeling there was something deeper. I just wanted to know if there was some deeper pattern even if I don't implement it in this case |
| 00:37:45 | <geekosaur> | I did wonder if it maybe fit "annihilating element", but it didn't seem like it (should have been the same as mempty) |
| 00:38:20 | <monochrom> | Use multiplication as an anlogy, mempty is 1, helpmode is 0. |
| 00:38:22 | <geekosaur> | hm, no, that's wrong |
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| 00:38:35 | <geekosaur> | right, that would be annihilating |
| 00:39:26 | <monochrom> | For command line options, mempty is defaults, absorb/annihilate is helpmode. |
| 00:39:39 | <geekosaur> | although then I think you need a second monoid for which HelpMode would be mempty |
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| 00:41:14 | <monochrom> | You can bring in lattice theory if you want two identity elements, one for min and one for max, and then the identity for one is the annihilator for the other. :) |
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| 05:17:57 | <sdzx> | hello |
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| 06:22:01 | <jcarpenter2> | oh my gosh, Haskell is constantly asking me to take my program and make it a value in a meta-program |
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| 06:23:02 | <jcarpenter2> | that's the direction of the pull in Haskell |
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| 07:57:43 | <augustss> | howdy |
| 07:59:40 | <paparispipas> | sup |
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| 08:07:26 | <[exa]> | mornin' |
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| 09:00:28 | <tomsmeding> | one can't get the list of exports of a module in TH, right? |
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| 09:34:01 | <int-e> | tomsmeding: Looking at the Language.Haskell.TH.Syntax.Quasi type classs ...no. (qReifyModule may get your hopes up for a moment but all that returns is module names) |
| 09:35:39 | <tomsmeding> | int-e: indeed |
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| 10:06:23 | <tomsmeding> | is it known that haddock + TH + foreign imports is a breaking combination? |
| 10:07:39 | <tomsmeding> | I define a foreign import (from C) in module F, then define 'cheese = LitE (StringL "cheese")' in module A and (crucially) import F in A (even if F is unused in A); then I write module B which imports A and uses 'cheese' in a splice |
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| 10:08:24 | <tomsmeding> | if I then `cabal build --enable-documentation`, haddock breaks on B, saying "Loading temp shared object failed", referring to the imported C function |
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| 10:15:41 | <tomsmeding> | reproducer: https://git.tomsmeding.com/haddock-th-foreign-repro/about/ |
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| 15:55:33 | <glguy> | tomsmeding: It seems like that's more specifically that you have a local c source. If it was a system installed library I bet it would have worked |
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| 15:57:47 | <tomsmeding> | oh probably |
| 16:01:25 | <tomsmeding> | glguy: in case you're curious, I reported this on the ghc issue tracker: https://gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/ghc/-/issues/24964 |
| 16:01:54 | <glguy> | I think this is more of a cabal issue than ghc |
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| 16:02:49 | <tomsmeding> | perhaps, but I asked Mikolaj and he said something like "perhaps this is cabal's fault, but in any case I have no clue how to solve it, so let's report it to ghc" |
| 16:02:52 | <tomsmeding> | also see Ryan's reply |
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| 16:03:30 | <tomsmeding> | (which shows that it reproduces without cabal too, and even without haddock) |
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| 16:17:19 | <glguy> | I don't see why Ryan's example should have worked at all |
| 16:17:36 | <glguy> | It does not provide the c file as an argument |
| 16:18:27 | <tomsmeding> | good point |
| 16:19:45 | <tomsmeding> | added your remark to the issue :) |
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| 18:42:54 | <lxsameer> | hey folks, I'm looking for a safe (concurrency) bound channel implementation. Do you know any? |
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| 18:45:48 | <tomsmeding> | @hackage BoundedChan |
| 18:45:48 | <lambdabot> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/BoundedChan |
| 18:45:54 | <monochrom> | https://hackage.haskell.org/package/stm-chans has a TBChan |
| 18:46:14 | <lxsameer> | cheers |
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| 18:46:34 | <tomsmeding> | look at that, BoundedChan has a `base >=3` bound! One doesn't see that often :) |
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| 18:49:48 | <monochrom> | "This sword is passed down from my father, and his father before that." |
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| 18:52:00 | <monochrom> | "But dad we now fight with xbox controllers and nintendo switch, not with swords, not even with joysticks" |
| 18:53:42 | <lxsameer> | that remindes of another question. Since packages in haskell can share namespaces (package name or whatever they're called) how do you find the package that contains a certain symbol? for example the hoogle results can contains many packages with the same symbol |
| 18:54:09 | <tomsmeding> | what do you mean with "the package that contains a certain symbol"? |
| 18:54:26 | <tomsmeding> | do you mean "I have some haskell code that compiles, and I want to know where ghc is getting this name from"? |
| 18:55:01 | <tomsmeding> | (the easiest answer to that, if you have HLS set up, is "ask for the type of the thing" -- the source module is listed in the popup) |
| 18:55:20 | <tomsmeding> | (another answer is: do `:i` on it in ghci) |
| 18:55:27 | <lxsameer> | tomsmeding: no |
| 18:55:44 | <lxsameer> | for example, I want to find TVar definition |
| 18:55:50 | <tomsmeding> | _which_ TVar |
| 18:55:53 | <tomsmeding> | where did you read that name |
| 18:56:12 | <tomsmeding> | as you said, just the name "TVar" does not contain enough information to know where to search :p |
| 18:56:31 | <Rembane> | You can make a TVar yourself! :D |
| 18:56:33 | <tomsmeding> | (well, for "TVar" specifically there's ~100% chance it's from stm:Control.Concurrent.STM.TVar) |
| 18:57:10 | <tomsmeding> | this is the same as in any language; if someone tells you in C++ "I'm using a `vector`", is that `std::vector`? Who knows! |
| 18:57:20 | <tomsmeding> | You have to ask the person who said "vector" to you :) |
| 18:57:22 | <lxsameer> | well TVar might not be good example, but usually you can find good a few packages defining the same symbol |
| 18:57:27 | <tomsmeding> | sure |
| 18:57:54 | <lxsameer> | tomsmeding: not exactly, in haskell, packages tend to use Data, Control or things like that |
| 18:58:30 | <tomsmeding> | Data, Control, etc. are not linked to any package in particular; packages can put their modules in whatever place in the module hierarchy they wish |
| 18:58:44 | <lxsameer> | while in some other langs, they don't choose the same namespace |
| 18:58:59 | <tomsmeding> | can you give an example of that? |
| 18:59:03 | <lxsameer> | yeah I know that, but apparently it is a convension |
| 18:59:12 | <geekosaur> | "Data" and "Control" don't mean anything |
| 18:59:20 | <lxsameer> | yeah i know |
| 18:59:23 | <tomsmeding> | there is a very rough convention of what to put where, indeed, but that still doesn't tell you anything about what package it came from ;) |
| 18:59:25 | <geekosaur> | eiter semantically or organizationally |
| 18:59:40 | <lxsameer> | but 10 packages defining Data.X.Y.Z is pretty confusing |
| 18:59:43 | <tomsmeding> | even if the conventions _were_ strict (which they aren't) |
| 18:59:45 | <tomsmeding> | yes |
| 18:59:49 | <tomsmeding> | that's the fault of those packages |
| 19:00:01 | <tomsmeding> | the answer to your question, I think, is: "ask the person who said 'TVar' to you" |
| 19:00:14 | <tomsmeding> | (using 'TVar' as a standin for the name you'd like to look up) |
| 19:00:24 | <tomsmeding> | "insert" could be a good example |
| 19:01:01 | <tomsmeding> | is it from containers:Data.Map.Strict? containers:Data.Map? aeson:Data.Aeson.KeyMap? Who knows -- you need to ask whoever said that name to you, or wrote that name somewhere |
| 19:01:01 | <lxsameer> | cheers thank you |
| 19:01:20 | <tomsmeding> | again, as far as I know this is the same in any other language |
| 19:01:43 | <tomsmeding> | this would only be different if every use of a name would necessarily carry the name of the package it came from, with it |
| 19:01:49 | <tomsmeding> | which would be _extremely_ cumbersome |
| 19:02:14 | <tomsmeding> | for module names, some languages indeed namespace module names under the package name |
| 19:02:22 | <tomsmeding> | haskell doesn't, so you have the same problem again |
| 19:05:50 | <tomsmeding> | (but C++ also doesn't, nor does Python if I remember correctly (though there is a strong naming convention there), for example) |
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All times are in UTC on 2024-06-09.