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Logs on 2024-06-15 (liberachat/#haskell)

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03:36:09 <rustisafungus> is there a haskell to XLA compiler? i hate python
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05:24:28 <xacktm> I'm getting some compilation errors when trying to compile Wuss's example program https://github.com/tfausak/wuss can someone point out where my error is? I suspect indentation but it's all 2-space delimited: https://github.com/tfausak/wuss
05:24:51 <xacktm> oops error/code is: https://bpa.st/VW5A
05:26:57 <mauke> xacktm: bad indentation on line 22
05:27:57 <mauke> 'let' uses layout
05:28:28 <mauke> 'line' must be indented more than 'loop' (in the line above) because it is part of loop's definition
05:29:17 <xacktm> ahh ok it's not like the top-level functions like `ws connection` there
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05:29:58 <mauke> it is, in a way
05:30:22 <mauke> the top-level layout is governed by 'where' (line 1)
05:31:15 <mauke> 'ws' starts in column 1, so all parts of its definition must be indented by at least 1 space
05:31:52 <mauke> but 'loop' starts in column 7
05:32:34 <xacktm> whoah that just blew my mind, that where clause in line 1
05:32:50 <xacktm> can you do imports way down in a where clause in a function?
05:33:12 <mauke> in a rigid indentation scheme, you'd have to start a new line after 'let', then 'loop = do' (indented one more level), then another new line and indentation level
05:33:31 <mauke> no, imports are only allowed at the top level
05:35:20 <xacktm> hmm I think I might try that style
05:35:54 <xacktm> https://bpa.st/VGGA you mean something like this right? it does compile
05:36:21 <mauke> yes, exactly
05:37:33 <xacktm> I'll let it simmer but I kinda like it already
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05:41:10 <xacktm> then if I join the let and loop = do lines, the body can stay the same indentation and it is clear where that body should be indented
05:41:17 <xacktm> thanks :)
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05:44:04 <iqubic> I'm forgetting how haskell works. Do I need to escape single quotes in my strings?
05:44:45 <mauke> no
05:45:14 <mauke> unless you write your strings like ['h','e','l','l','o']
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11:49:38 <kaol> I ended up doing code like (\a b c -> a $ b $ c $ someval) <$> Just (+1) <*> Just (+2) <*> Just (+3). It works but I was left feeling that maybe I missed some more obvious way of writing it. Anyone think of anything?
11:50:42 <ncf> uh
11:51:00 <ncf> Just (someval + 6) ?
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11:54:48 <kaol> Stuffing them in a foldable would allow foldr ($) someval. Probably not worth it.
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11:58:03 <ncf> why would you do this if you statically have three `Just`s? did you mean (\a b c -> a $ b $ c $ someval) <$> x <*> y <*> z ?
11:58:26 <kaol> I guess what I'm really asking for is how to apply arbitrary amount of endofuctions that are wrapped inside applicatives.
11:59:18 <ncf> in theory you could have something akin to Endo and Kleisli but for f (a -> a)
11:59:27 <ncf> which becomes a Monoid if f is Applicative
11:59:35 <ncf> i don't know if that's defined anywhere though
11:59:58 <kaol> My real code doesn't have static Justs, it was just for example's sake to make it self contained one liner.
12:00:00 <ncf> plus i'm always a bit uneasy with these things because the type system doesn't enforce which direction things are composed, so you have to remember it
12:00:19 <ncf> why would you add things that aren't in your code, if the point is simplicity? anyway
12:00:56 <probie> :t \someval -> fmap ((`appEndo` someval) . foldMap Endo) (sequenceA [Just (+1), Just (+2), Just (+3)])
12:00:57 <lambdabot> Num b => b -> Maybe b
12:03:53 <ncf> i'm surprised hoogle doesn't find Kleisli for `(a -> m b) -> x m a b`
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12:07:26 <ncf> ooo, you can describe this as the change of enriching category induced by the lax monoidal functor f
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12:33:52 <Leary> Ideally, we would have `newtype (f `Over` c) a b = Over (f (c a b))` with `instance (Applicative f, Category c) => Category (f `Over` c)` and `newtype Endo c a = Endo (c a a)` with `instance Category c => Monoid (Endo c)`. Then it would just be `coerce . foldMap (Endo . Over)`.
12:36:09 <Leary> The former being to Applicative as Kleisli is to Monad; in an alternative history we could have had `type Monad f = Category (Kleisli f)` and `type Applicative f = Category (f `Over` (->))`.
12:36:12 <ncf> Over = Tannen https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bifunctors-5.6.2/docs/Data-Bifunctor-Tannen.html#t:Tannen
12:36:38 <ncf> (Applicative f, Category p) => Category (Tannen f p :: k -> k -> Type)
12:36:40 <ncf> nice
12:37:33 <ncf> and Endo = Join https://hackage.haskell.org/package/bifunctors-5.6.2/docs/Data-Bifunctor-Join.html
12:38:02 <ncf> that doesn't have the Monoid instance (probably for the best, given the issue with the direction of composition)
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12:41:29 <Leary> Cheers---it's good to know that `Over` is actually defined somewhere, and what it's called---I always felt it was an omission. Re `Endo`/`Join`, I don't think that's a good reason to omit the instance. It should just compose the same order as the category by default, and hence the opposite way with `Dual`.
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12:44:10 <ncf> i guess an order is already chosen for Endo
12:44:15 <ncf> the actual Endo
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12:57:56 <hammond> terrible question, but is Category Theory too abstract? too up there? or can is it applied?
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13:56:02 <hololeap> is this being caused by gcc exiting with a non-zero exit code, or by ghc interpreting the warning as an error? https://github.com/mvv/posix-timer/issues/2
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14:10:19 <lxsameer> hey folks, I have bunch of functions with the following type: Int -> IO (Either e a) what is the best way to chain them together?
14:10:48 <lxsameer> btw `a` is Int here and e is Exception
14:12:04 <ncf> (>=>) in ExceptT Exception IO ?
14:13:37 <lxsameer> ncf: hmmm I'm trying to avoid using Except, my main issue here is that I want to utilize the Monad type class for Either, and automatically return Left e and any step if the either value matched that
14:14:04 <ncf> that's... what ExceptT is for
14:14:05 <lxsameer> something like a foldr
14:14:49 <lxsameer> ok thank you
14:22:17 <mauke> IO does exceptions natively
14:22:22 <mauke> you could just use IO a
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14:24:16 <lxsameer> mauke: the lib that I'm using returns IO (Either ...)
14:24:38 <mauke> hololeap: from the C side of things, it's caused by the code being wrong. it was undefined behavior in C89/C90 and it's been an error since C99
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14:25:15 <mauke> gcc says "error:", so I assume it exits with a non-zero status
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14:30:37 <hololeap> ok. it sounds like it started after an upgrade to gcc 14, so they must have upgraded the warning to an error
14:31:55 <mauke> yeah, https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-14/porting_to.html
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14:37:45 <hololeap> what would be the argument to pass to `cabal configure` to disable that as a workaround?
14:38:53 <hololeap> --gcc-option=-Wno-error=implicit-function-declaration ?
14:40:11 <mauke> I swear, programmers would use -fignore-errors everywhere if they could
14:41:30 <hololeap> I don't. I use -Wall -Werror wherever I can :)
14:42:21 <hololeap> but just for the sake of knowledge, would --gcc-option=... work?
14:42:30 <hololeap> is that a valid argument?
14:43:14 <hololeap> `cabal configure --help` shows "--PROG-option=OPT", but I'm not sure if it will take gcc as PROG
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14:45:07 <hololeap> also, I wonder if the haskell github action could be told to use gcc 14 so this shows up as an error in their CI
14:46:40 <mauke> I don't know
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15:43:18 <monochrom> -fignore-errors = python and php
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15:48:26 <monochrom> But PROG can be gcc IIRC. Give it a try.
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16:15:45 <hololeap> monochrom: yeah, it worked. also I added "#include <stdio.h>" to the two .hsc files and submitted it as a PR
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16:32:56 <rustisafungus> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5osk9lrGNg
16:33:39 <monochrom> What would that be?
16:34:10 <rustisafungus> computer chronicles
16:36:04 <rustisafungus> program code is a tree. what is the high level data structure corresponding to the *state* of a program prior to consideration of evaluation strategy?
16:39:06 <c_wraith> that question makes some unfounded assumptions. Even "program code is a tree" is only one way to look at things.
16:39:59 <c_wraith> The state of a program might be viewed as the state of some specific hardware. Or it might be the model the programming language defines. Or you might use something in between.
16:42:21 <rustisafungus> are there nontree programming languages?
16:42:37 <c_wraith> you can always construct a parse as a tree. that's not what I mean.
16:42:48 <rustisafungus> reduction (and choice of evaluation strategy) is required to map the state onto hardware
16:42:56 <c_wraith> I mean you can also construct a more general graph, if you use a different strategy
16:43:07 <rustisafungus> different eval strategy?
16:43:21 <c_wraith> no, I'm still talking about the representation of the code.
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16:43:24 <monochrom> I'm going to s/evaluation strategy/operational semantics/ . What is your definition of "state" if you don't specify an operational semantics?
16:43:52 <c_wraith> I'm saying you should say "code is a tree" when it's much more accurate to say "code can be modeled as a tree". It's not that it *is* a tree. It's that a tree works as a model.
16:44:06 <c_wraith> err, shouldn't say
16:44:37 <monochrom> Hell, in fact, s/definition/mathematical definition/ I refuse to do armchair philosophy.
16:45:38 <rustisafungus> okay code can be (fully?) modeled as a tree...
16:45:42 <c_wraith> In the same way, there isn't a single "the state" of a program independent of the model you're working in.
16:45:58 <monochrom> Also the elephant in the room: s/the/a/
16:46:29 <rustisafungus> wow what, ... are you including something like the "intention of the programmer" in the code here or ...? or are you including something like evaluation strategy dependent execution?
16:47:35 <c_wraith> No, I mean do you accept a full dump of my computer's registers, TLBs, durable storage, RAM, etc as a program state?
16:47:47 <c_wraith> because there's some model where that *is* the program state.
16:48:15 <rustisafungus> c_wraith: well that would be an example of program state, but to be able to know what was in RAM you would need to have evaluated the next instruction
16:48:37 <rustisafungus> whereas i am trying to ask, can i model the program state before you evaluate in any specific manner
16:49:35 <c_wraith> sure, with a computer that's turned off.
16:51:09 <c_wraith> as monochrom says, it's a sort of philosophy question. What's the state of your program before the big bang?
16:52:42 <rustisafungus> well, on paper?
16:52:45 <c_wraith> Any model you choose to work in will define starting conditions. I think that's what you're actually going for.
16:52:53 <c_wraith> But it's model-dependent.
16:53:01 <c_wraith> Choose a model, and then you have your initial conditions.
16:53:20 <rustisafungus> okay let me make this concrete: can i model my program state successfully as a tree?
16:53:28 <c_wraith> a tree of what?
16:53:35 <c_wraith> in what model?
16:54:55 <rustisafungus> what is a model, then?
16:55:40 <c_wraith> Let me make things concrete in a different way. GHC compiles haskell code via a representation it calls STG. In this representation, the code is converted to a graph, and evaluation is graph reduction.
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16:56:40 <rustisafungus> right, and this is a "nonstrict evaluation strategy"
16:56:57 <c_wraith> it is one possible non-strict evaluation strategy
16:58:35 <rustisafungus> right... so how does the tree AST become a graph?
16:59:10 <c_wraith> pretty simply, actually. Names are resolved to edges to their definitions.
16:59:24 <c_wraith> any recursive definition becomes a loop.
16:59:34 <c_wraith> err. a cycle in the graph.
16:59:49 <rustisafungus> ah... ok so the tree becomes a graph solely due to recursion?
17:00:41 <c_wraith> *in that representation of Haskell code*, that's the way things stop being a tree. There are other representations. There are other languages.
17:00:51 <rustisafungus> so i can reasonably say "a graph originating from a tree plus special self-reference edges"?
17:02:15 <c_wraith> that's pretty accurate for the way GHC compiles Haskell.
17:02:33 <c_wraith> But as I keep saying, this is all very context dependent.
17:03:08 <c_wraith> If you don't specify the context, the model in use, a statement like that isn't meaningful enough to even declare it to be true or false.
17:03:11 <rustisafungus> i mean, graphs are a very general (the most general...?) structure--are there languages which are not well modeled by tree+recursive_edge ?
17:03:29 <rustisafungus> model is equivalent to reduction rules?
17:04:14 <c_wraith> a model is a way of specifying the meaning of constructs.
17:04:33 <rustisafungus> meaning as in how a human interprets things?
17:04:41 <rustisafungus> as in, semantics?
17:06:45 <c_wraith> all these terms have too many definitions. Things can get fuzzy. The important part about a model is that it presents a meaning for a formalism, but it doesn't have to be the only meaning.
17:07:18 <c_wraith> "semantics" is usually defined within a model, in the context of programming.
17:07:37 <c_wraith> Less so in linguistics.
17:09:01 <rustisafungus> ..as in the anchoring to the "real world" like the fact that some variable corresponds to an estimate of the temperature of a room, or the degree to which a person is regarded as extroverted?
17:11:28 <c_wraith> oh, note that the graph STG creates doesn't need recursion to stop being a tree. something as simple as (1 + (2 + 3)) inserts two different edges to the node defining (+). Not a tree anymore!
17:11:39 <monochrom> Ugh you have no executional model and you intend to have none and yet you call it "real world".
17:12:31 <monochrom> One more data point for my empirical model that when people emphasize "real world" they are the ones who are detached.
17:13:13 <monochrom> (Along the same line that if in a debate one side has to say "I have the right/freedom" then it means they don't have any real point to make.)
17:14:39 <rustisafungus> c_wraith: okay that is an interesting point ... i don't quite see your (1+(2+3)) there, all i see is the AST
17:15:37 <rustisafungus> would it be like both (1, ptr_to_plus23) and (2 3) pointing at (+) ?
17:18:30 <c_wraith> yeah, it's something like that.
17:19:14 <rustisafungus> so... where is ptr_to_plus23?
17:19:40 <rustisafungus> do you visualize a boundary around (+) (2 3) or something, and ptr_to_plus23 points to that?
17:20:08 <rustisafungus> because you can't point to (2 3) and you can't point to (+), because neither are individually adequate
17:22:51 <c_wraith> I mean, it's the same as the AST, except (+) has been changed from an abstract symbol to a function call. The function itself is entered from different call sites, so it's got multiple edges to it in the graph.
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17:23:58 <rustisafungus> but ptr_to_plus23 can't point at (+) itself, something must distinguish (+) (2 3) from (+)
17:27:17 <c_wraith> I mean... it would have been rejected during type checking if it was just (+)
17:27:37 <rustisafungus> right but with this i am saying that "graph" doesn't quite describe this data structure in the best way
17:27:50 <c_wraith> (+ 2 3) is just a graph node.
17:28:20 <rustisafungus> (+ 1 (+ 2 3)), the +s are "different" there,... i think?
17:28:34 <rustisafungus> whereas it seemed like you wanted to emphasize the sameness of the +?
17:28:48 <c_wraith> the two +s there do exactly the same thing.
17:28:49 <rustisafungus> i guess we can say referential transparency so the +s are identical?
17:29:02 <geekosaur> no? the (+)s are the same, there are Ap nodes for the applications
17:29:25 <rustisafungus> but then, that's just a tree
17:29:27 <c_wraith> Enter the (+) definition. Determine that both arguments need to be evaluated. Evaluate each argument. Add them together.
17:29:43 <rustisafungus> whereas you were saying that somehow this was not a tree
17:30:13 <c_wraith> It's more like Call((+), 1, Call((+), 2, 3))
17:30:37 <c_wraith> two different edges to the same (+)
17:31:38 <c_wraith> the definition of (+) clearly doesn't get duplicated every time you add together two numbers.
17:31:50 <c_wraith> It's a shared node in the evaluation graph.
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17:32:35 <rustisafungus> i mean unless the program can change the definition of + at runtime...
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17:34:21 <c_wraith> that's not a thing Haskell does. As I said, this is all very context-dependent. (You can shadow names in Haskell, but that doesn't change the value of the name for anything that isn't in the shadowing scope)
17:35:16 <rustisafungus> is there a nice registration free image pasting service
17:36:08 <geekosaur> https://0x0.st/
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17:39:35 <rustisafungus> https://0x0.st/XcEN.png <-- here is what i see
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17:45:44 <dolio> Depending on how all you're thinking of things, when you do `let x = 2 + 2 in x + x`, the graph pointing to x twice matters because when 2+2 gets replaced by 4, it only needs to happen once.
17:46:25 <dolio> Whether you consider that 'code' is the question.
17:46:51 <rustisafungus> that's probably code? i guess you are pointing out that i might have some io here and you don't know how that mixes in?
17:48:12 <dolio> No, there's no i/o. It's just that `let x = 2 + 2 in x + x` reduces like `let x = 4 in x + x` → `4 + 4` → `8`
17:49:00 <dolio> But you could draw it as a graph, instead of the textual `let` with names.
17:49:27 <dolio> The outer + points to the same `2+2` node twice.
17:49:57 <dolio> So when that 2+2 is replaced by 4, it's replaced everywhere.
17:50:27 <monochrom> Or rather, there is only one thing replaced, but it's visible everywhere.
17:51:45 <rustisafungus> i see
17:52:10 <rustisafungus> very unfortunately i need to run but i would like to have a really clear picture of this at some point
17:53:06 <rustisafungus> i'll look at lchaskell in case folks have things to add here
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17:54:26 <rustisafungus> i'll look at lchaskell later in case folks have things to add here
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All times are in UTC on 2024-06-15.