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Logs on 2024-06-24 (liberachat/#haskell)

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03:14:35 <monochrom> GHC2021 includes standalone deriving <3 But too bad can't just write "deriving instance (Show M, Eq M)", have to split into two clauses. (No biggie. :) )
03:16:16 <monochrom> Moreover it is OK if I put the standalone deriving clauses before the type definition >:D
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03:20:58 <monochrom> My use case: I am making an exam paper. I am coding up and testing my solution before putting on the exam (copy-paste, delete code, keep type sigs). I want to be too lazy to delete "deriving (Eq, Show)" after a type def. Standalone deriving lets me do that.
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04:39:00 <erty> Pardon my lack of knowledge, but in a complex Haskell project, how do developers have to think about the performance?
04:39:05 <erty> Is it like writing java code (threading etc.) or javascript code (event loop)? I know we have laziness in Haskell, but how do developers improve performance in a complex level?
04:40:27 <monochrom> I don't understand how threading or event loop improve performance.
04:43:55 <erty> Threading lets you write concurrent or parallel code.
04:44:03 <erty> Event loop manages that for you by offloading asynchronous tasks to kernel.
04:44:10 <monochrom> OK, s/concurrent or//
04:45:35 <erty> For nodejs, its not exactly performance improvement but still, developer only has to focus on user centric code
04:48:30 <joeyadams> Well, the runtime system ought to handle the async part for you. GHC doesn't have async/await, it has "green threads" which basically means regular IO threads are handled efficiently and use async IO behind the scenes.
04:48:53 <joeyadams> (unless your code has to run on Windows...)
04:50:53 <joeyadams> But if you're asking about general performance guidelines, I'm going to be lazy and link the first Google result: https://wiki.haskell.org/Performance
04:52:00 <monochrom> The book "Parallel and Concurrent Programming in Haskell" is a good place to start, but I have lost where to find a free version.
04:55:20 <geekosaur> https://github.com/clojurians-org/haskell-ebook/blob/master/Parallel%20and%20Concurrent%20Programming%20in%20Haskell.pdf
04:55:27 <erty> joeyadams: Thanks for the explanation. Your answer did satisfied my curiosity! And thanks for the link as well. I also found this link about performance https://www.fpcomplete.com/haskell/tutorial/profiling/
04:55:39 <geekosaur> although that doesn't look particularly official now that I see the full url
04:56:10 <monochrom> Ah OK, it is still free on O'Reilly, just ignore "start free trial", scroll down to TOC and click "show more", select any section.
04:57:07 <monochrom> Haha Clojurians preserve Haskell books.
05:02:12 <monochrom> Err I forgot to provide the link. https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/parallel-and-concurrent/9781449335939/
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05:05:03 <erty> geekosaur: monochrom: thank you for providing link for that book. It is really helpful indeed.
05:05:22 <geekosaur> @where PCPH
05:05:22 <lambdabot> "Parallel and Concurrent Programming in Haskell" by Simon Marlow in 2013 at <http://community.haskell.org/~simonmar/pcph/>,<http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/1230000000929/>,<https://web.archive.
05:05:22 <lambdabot> org/web/20180117194842/http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/1230000000929>,<https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/parallel-and-concurrent/9781449335939/>
05:05:29 <geekosaur> there's an official free link
05:05:39 <erty> But the book is really old and has not been updated (July 2013)
05:05:51 <geekosaur> o'reilly was making it aavailable for free for a while but that has apparently expired 😞
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05:08:54 <Axman6> erty: the majority of the details in there are still very relevant, the implementation of the parallelism and concurrency primitives in GHC haven't needed to change much, they were very well designed
05:10:47 <erty> Axman6: This is the thing about functional languages (like haskell,elisp) that I appreciate, articles as old as 1990s or 2000s are still valid today! Its very noice
05:10:52 <Axman6> erty: GHC has used an event based system for managing concurrent IO (and threads) for a long time, and the runtime just takes care of it all for you. You can start thousands of threads, one per connection in a netweork server for example, and expect it perform just fine. GHC's threads are very lightweight (fewer bytes per thread for bookkeeping than Erlang)
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05:17:51 <erty> Axman6: The main reason for me asking this question was, that CPUs these days are becoming very powerful, so while writing performant and efficient code, do we have to think about the hardware that it would be executed on? Or let GHC handle that for you.
05:18:15 <erty> So I think let GHC handle it
05:18:49 <erty> You should think about the complexity of your functions instead
05:20:41 <Axman6> that depends a lot on the code I guess. finding what is making your code slow should direct what you focus on, not some general ideas of "if I do these things then my app will be fast". profile, benchmark, measure, then make changes and soo if they improve things. (and do as I say, not as I do, because I'm terrible at following this advice myself =)
05:22:51 <Axman6> For beginners, they often run into performance issues related to not understanding how their code actually executes - things like memory leaks through building up large thunks, or even simple algorithmic things like the naive implementation of reverse (see Well Typed's recent video on foldl' on YouTube for more details)
05:24:30 <Axman6> It's the same in any language, you have to understand what your code is doing to predict what might not be fast. There are optimisations you can make in many dimensions that will improve things, from chosing more appropriate data types, to changing algorithms, to splitting the problem across cores (and doing that without making things slower, sometimes harder than you'd think)
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05:37:38 <erty> Axman6: These are all very very useful advices. I will gladly try to work on them. Thanks for providing link to that video, I will go and watch it now :-)
05:43:08 <erty> this should be the video I believe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJgRsvtarmE&list=PLD8gywOEY4HauPWPfH0pJPIYUWqi0Gg10&index=24
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06:16:38 <Axman6> erty: this is the one I was actually thinking about: https://youtu.be/5ali1ZsABIY?si=b1mrhkloRtXqDHwb
06:40:07 <jackdk> Axman6: TIL that `main-is:` for an `executable` target of a `.cabal` file can be a C/C++/ObjC source file.
06:49:22 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Is there are book/article/anything on how to properly profile haskell programs? On the tooling, how to read the traces, stuff like that. Last time i tried i really struggled to make anything out of the perf file i managed to extract
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07:00:04 <haskellbridge> <sm> magic_rb: start with the chapter in the GHC user guide
07:00:39 <haskellbridge> <sm> "profiterole" can make time profiles a little easier to read
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07:22:25 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> sm: Ill try again, because i tried that last time and i got nowhere :(
07:23:13 <haskellbridge> <sm> profiling haskell is not easy, but the chapter has useful foundational info
07:25:01 <haskellbridge> <sm> after that I think I'd read https://haskell.foundation/hs-opt-handbook.github.io/ and maybe threads like https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/v787s0/optimisingprofiling_complex_haskell_projects/
07:25:20 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Ill try it again then, because my physics implementation is still horrendously slow, but that is also probably an algorithmic slowness
07:27:43 <haskellbridge> <sm> in time profiles, just reading the number of entries column can be helpful. You can also often make progress without detailed time profiles, eg by just sprinkling trace logging through your code to get insight into what it's doing, or by changing things and comparing "+RTS -s" or "timeit" statistics
07:27:57 <haskellbridge> <sm> -just
07:28:29 <haskellbridge> <sm> * sometimes
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08:32:13 <haskellbridge> <magic_rb> Ill try to revisit my optimization struggles later in the week. I need to make the physics more efficient, its not good that two bodies colliding gets my fps from 60 to 30
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15:00:14 <gdl_> Is there a channel or is anyone familiar with happy parser?
15:00:50 <EvanR> better luck asking the question about happy
15:02:27 <gdl_> Is there a way to have monadic actions in productions like { %myFunction $1 } and at the same time using an attributed grammar setting an attribute to pass upwards, like { %action $1; $$.attr = 1} ?
15:06:24 <danse-nr3> huh fancy syntax
15:06:42 <danse-nr3> is that template haskell?
15:08:00 <gdl_> mmm I don't actually know, I guess kind of... It's a happy grammar rule. The second one I wrote doesn't work of course
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15:13:36 <EvanR> gdl_, the manual seems to suggest you have something like that by default
15:13:50 <EvanR> https://haskell-happy.readthedocs.io/en/latest/using.html#monadic-parsers
15:15:47 <c_wraith> danse-nr3: no, happy syntax is its own thing. It's not an EDSL in Haskell the way basically every parser we talk about is
15:16:04 <c_wraith> danse-nr3: it's more like bison or yacc
15:16:11 <danse-nr3> i see, thanks c_wraith
15:19:24 <gdl_> I have my monadic parser working and executing the function which returns the correct type (to build a tree) but I'd like to pass other stuff as attributes. Actually it's not written in the manual how to mix those 2 features, or I missed it :(
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15:22:00 <EvanR> put the attributes in your semantic value?
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15:26:03 <gdl_> EvanR, you're right, that would work. But I would like to avoid that, if possible. I know it sounds crazy, but I'm forced to somehow do this
15:27:40 <EvanR> you want a parallel semantic value that builds the same final tree but has different stuff in it
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15:33:01 <gdl_> more less yes
15:33:20 <gdl_> attributes would help me a long way, but happy accepted grammar is just not documented enough
15:36:20 <EvanR> yeah they didn't design it to produce 2 semantic values because that's already covered by having 1 semantic value that can hold a pair of values at each node
15:36:56 <EvanR> which can be trivially projected to get the original with fst or snd
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15:37:47 <gdl_> Yeah. But since there are attributes I was wondering if it could be used with monads...
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15:38:58 <EvanR> oh didn't know about attributes
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15:51:45 <Hecate> 9
15:51:49 <Hecate> (woops)
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17:37:06 <sm> matrix.org homeserver down ?
17:38:50 <geekosaur> just came back for me
17:39:14 <geekosaur> it's been in and out all morning
17:40:25 <sm> yay for fallback technology
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18:26:48 <zzz> does irc fallback on itself?
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19:24:56 <monochrom> IRC has multiple, mutually-duplicating servers.
19:25:16 <monochrom> Then again I don't know whether matrix also does that.
19:27:07 <monochrom> IRC, Usenet, internet routing... were designed back in the old days when people took no-single-point-of-failure seriously.
19:27:44 <monochrom> Clearly, it would not last long because it makes zero commercial sense.
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19:28:43 <geekosaur> matrix is federated, but if you log in to a particular homeserver or a room exists on a particular homeserver then you have problems when it goes down
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19:43:39 <juri_> the same is true for Wire.
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20:47:41 <zzz> i do not like matrix
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22:28:02 → machinedgod joins (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net)
22:29:22 → causal joins (~eric@50.35.88.207)
22:29:40 × machinedgod quits (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net) (Client Quit)
22:29:59 → machinedgod joins (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net)
22:30:12 × machinedgod quits (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net) (Client Quit)
22:30:30 → machinedgod joins (~machinedg@d173-183-246-216.abhsia.telus.net)
22:36:45 × acidjnk_new3 quits (~acidjnk@p200300d6e714dc8889f5631cf21e07c5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
22:39:35 × sord937 quits (~sord937@gateway/tor-sasl/sord937) (Quit: sord937)
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22:41:04 → gehmehgeh joins (~user@user/gehmehgeh)
22:50:05 × __monty__ quits (~toonn@user/toonn) (Quit: leaving)
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22:59:24 → RedFlamingos joins (~RedFlamin@user/RedFlamingos)
23:06:29 × dcoutts quits (~duncan@2a00:23c6:1c8d:901:b94:4566:9d63:4848) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
23:11:42 × turlando quits (~turlando@user/turlando) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
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23:16:11 × philopsos1 quits (~caecilius@user/philopsos) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
23:19:55 × Tuplanolla quits (~Tuplanoll@91-159-69-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: Leaving.)
23:26:22 → philopsos1 joins (~caecilius@user/philopsos)
23:26:56 → noumenon joins (~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net)
23:37:03 × noumenon quits (~noumenon@113.51-175-156.customer.lyse.net) (Quit: Leaving)
23:41:18 → bitdex joins (~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex)
23:41:50 → Lambdatwo joins (~Lambdatwo@2a01:cb19:895c:3c00:d874:41c3:7df2:e8d5)
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23:43:53 × Lambdatwo quits (~Lambdatwo@2a01:cb19:895c:3c00:d874:41c3:7df2:e8d5) (Client Quit)
23:47:19 × sawilagar quits (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Remote host closed the connection)
23:47:49 → sawilagar joins (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar)
23:50:50 × gehmehgeh quits (~user@user/gehmehgeh) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
23:54:37 × sawilagar quits (~sawilagar@user/sawilagar) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

All times are in UTC on 2024-06-24.