Home liberachat/#haskell: Logs Calendar

Logs on 2024-06-26 (liberachat/#haskell)

00:00:47 <EvanR> there might be some more you could try https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6115459/small-haskell-program-compiled-with-ghc-into-huge-binary?lq=1
00:04:54 <joeyadams> Thanks. Maybe I should just create a single record and derive FromJSON, and look at the assembly. I'm mainly curious why it takes so much code to do (what should be) so little.
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00:22:05 <jackdk> @tell joeyadams https://well-typed.com/blog/2021/08/large-records/ might be relevant here
00:22:05 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:22:18 <Axman6> yeah that came to mind for me too
00:22:38 <Axman6> also ping EvanR since you were looking into it too
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00:33:31 <safinaskar> @tell joeyadams also try self-unpacking binaries :)
00:33:32 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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00:37:14 <joeyadams> Thanks, jackdk, looking at it now.
00:42:36 <safinaskar> bye
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00:57:01 <edrx> hi all! gmorning!
00:57:44 <edrx> I wrote a program to help me typeset type inferences using underbrace diagrams - it generates figures like this: https://i.ibb.co/8mZ2VVp/sshot.png
00:58:18 <edrx> but the "=>" looks ugly - i.e., the \textsf{=>} looks ugly.
00:58:28 <edrx> what would you use instead? suggestions?
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01:19:16 <pavonia> edrx: \Rightarrow or \Longrightarrow
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03:57:22 <edrx> pavonia: thanks =)
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04:53:35 <monochrom> I have been using ASCII art to show the equiv of that kind of underbrace diagrams.
04:54:34 <monochrom> For example when explaining "map (map f)" and "pure f <*> x <*> y <*> z <*> ..."
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04:58:23 <haskellbridge> <iqubic (she/her)> Isn't that second one just "lift2A" but expanded to many more args?
04:59:22 <monochrom> Yes.
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04:59:42 <monochrom> Well, yes if s/just//
05:00:12 <haskellbridge> <iqubic (she/her)> "pure f <_> x <_> y <_> z <_>..." is of type "Applicative f => a (a -> b -> c -> ...) -> f a -> f b -> f c -> ..."
05:00:37 <haskellbridge> <iqubic (she/her)> Erm... "Applicative f => (a -> b -> c -> ...) -> f a -> f b -> f c -> ..."
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05:30:02 <EvanR> oof at all that quadraticness of large records
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05:33:23 <haskellbridge> <iqubic (she/her)> Where does that come from?
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09:39:15 <lxsameer> hey folks, is there any ready to use functionality to collect a list of computations run them and pass the result of each of them after an automatic error handling to the next one? it should be thread safe
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09:41:49 <ncf> traverse
09:43:19 <ncf> oh, pass the result. then foldr (>=>) pure i guess?
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09:44:44 <lxsameer> ncf: what about the error handling part
09:45:01 <ncf> ExceptT
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09:45:57 <lxsameer> thank you
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09:46:53 <hc> What exactly do you mean by "thread safe" in this context?
09:50:39 <lxsameer> hc: I want to have a few threads all running a list of computation. on error, i want to know which thread and which computation raised that error. so some sort of coordination between threads is needed
09:54:37 <__monty__> But if each thread needs the results of the previous computation why are there threads and what would not be thread safe?
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09:57:54 <lxsameer> __monty__: let's say I need to create 4 list of jobs, each list runs in a thread, I need a 5th thread to act as a coordinator. receive certain errors from the threads and decide what to do with it. (local errors that are trivial can be handled in the theard)
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16:51:37 <Franciman> hi, does haskell have first class support for knowledge graphs?
16:53:16 <haskellbridge> <sm> hi Franciman , what would that look like ?
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16:54:32 <Franciman> hi @sm, base level would be supporting rdf as a format
16:54:34 <Franciman> and i see
16:54:37 <Franciman> @package rdf
16:54:37 <lambdabot> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/rdf
16:54:58 <haskellbridge> <sm> ah.. yes
16:55:01 <Franciman> but is there libraries for supporting reasoning?
16:55:04 <Franciman> with ontologies
16:55:34 <Franciman> or queries
16:55:38 <Franciman> for example conjunctive queries
16:55:46 <duncan> there is a minikanren
16:56:56 <haskellbridge> <sm> I don't know if https://flora.pm/packages/@hackage/hsparql is relevant
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16:57:13 <haskellbridge> <sm> or https://flora.pm/packages/@hackage/XSaiga
16:57:58 <Franciman> thanks a lot @sm
16:58:01 <haskellbridge> <sm> which use http://robstewart57.github.io/rdf4h/
16:58:24 <Franciman> what is this flora.pm?
16:58:30 <Franciman> is it a mirror for hackage?
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16:58:48 <haskellbridge> <sm> an alternate UI/mirror, yes
16:59:58 <haskellbridge> <sm> I switched to it just now to get a more stable page layout
17:00:13 <Franciman> kewl
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19:26:50 <kqr> Hello all! I am making some experiments in Haskell after about a 7 year hiatus from it, and I have one confusion I don't remember having before. I'm intending to use the `assign` function from Control.Lens, so I wanted to check what sort of state type to use. I clicked the MonadState constraint in the Haddocks and ended up in the adjunctions package which defines a State type. So far, so good.
19:26:53 <kqr> however, when I want to evalState this State type, it expects me to pass a `Rep g` as the initial input, and I just don't understand what this Representable thing is! Am I going about something backwards?
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19:29:00 <haskellbridge> <iqubic (she/her)> You want this, from MTL: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/mtl-2.3.1/docs/Control-Monad-State-Class.html#t:MonadState
19:29:24 <ncf> it seems like lens uses its own MonadState from adjunctions, but you can (and should probably) use it with the StateT from transformers/mtl
19:29:47 <energizer> defining a function `cartesianProduct xs ys` is there a convention about defining it in terms of recursion on the left or right argument? ie `cartesianProduct _ [] = []` or `cartesianProduct [] _ = []` which is preferred, or does it depend on something?
19:30:44 <kqr> ncf, That sounds more like what I remember! Thanks! How can all these State implementations/interfaces be compatible?
19:31:18 <haskellbridge> <sm> energizer: I think the rule of thumb is something like, most changeable arguments to the right, to make partial application more convenient
19:31:26 <ncf> there is simply a adjunctions.MonadState instance for transformers.StateT
19:31:50 <energizer> sm in this case the arguments are symmetric, the only difference is left/right
19:31:55 <ncf> energizer: it doesn't really matter as long as you document it, but i would expect that to behave as liftA2 (,)
19:31:58 <jackdk> kqr: adjunctions re-exports `MonadState` from mtl, so it's the one you know and remember. It's providing its own monad with an instance.
19:32:06 <ncf> > liftA2 (,) [1,2] [3,4]
19:32:08 <lambdabot> [(1,3),(1,4),(2,3),(2,4)]
19:32:10 <kqr> ncf, Oh, yes, of course. It was a few years ago, as I said. Thank you again!
19:32:26 <mauke> energizer: I'd expect recursion on the first argument
19:38:40 <energizer> mauke: can you say why?
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19:40:21 <mauke> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/ghc-internal-9.1001.0/docs/src/GHC.Internal.List.html#zip
19:42:10 <energizer> that recurses on both arguments because it has to
19:44:59 <mauke> yes, but it starts by checking the first argument first
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19:53:09 <haskellbridge> <iqubic (she/her)> I guess for reasons of like, "it's so easy to do partial application in Haskell", you might want to check the first argument first, and short-circuit if needed. That prevents you from needing to write "flip f" in cases where that's equivalent, just for the extra performance boost.
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20:31:45 <energizer> Supposing it's defined in terms of `cartesianProduct f [] ys = []; cartesianProduct f (x:xs) ys =`, what is `cartesianProduct f xs (y:ys)` equal to? It's not just `cartesianProduct (flip f) (y:ys) xs` because that puts the result in the wrong order. Is there a nice way to express the result?
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20:51:31 <ncf> you mean in terms of cartesianProduct f xs ys? it's going to be some ugly one-in-length-ys-interleaving of f y's
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22:08:54 <safinaskar> hi. i just proved in haskell that (0 + x = x) from (x + 0 = x) and induction https://godbolt.org/z/Tvqdaozoh
22:09:09 <safinaskar> i did NOT implement prover in haskell, i used type system of haskell itself as a prover
22:10:53 <safinaskar> unfortunately, i just understand that my proof is wrong. type application in haskell is injective, thus in my code (Add (N Z) Z ~ Add Z (N Z)) (this is true) implies (Z ~ N Z) (which is false)
22:10:59 <safinaskar> is there a way to fix this?
22:11:48 <safinaskar> maybe there is some experimental feature of haskell, which disables type application injectivity?
22:14:46 <ncf> it's injective with respect to type equality (~) (in some cases), but it shouldn't be injective with respect to your custom Equal type, should it?
22:15:16 <ncf> since you've gone with the weird axiomatic definition instead of the inductive definition with a refl constructor
22:15:19 <safinaskar> ncf: hmm, seems correct. thank you!
22:15:56 <ncf> i'm not even sure which type families are considered injective. https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/type_families.html has some information
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22:22:41 <zzz> are typefamilies worth it or can i just get by with "simple" haskell?
22:24:00 <monochrom> I'm going to answer tautologically. Type families are worth it when you need type families. You can get by with simple Haskell when simple Haskell suffices.
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22:24:27 <monochrom> But I will add that I have only ever needed fairly simple Haskell most of the time.
22:25:14 <monochrom> But there are times when I miss SML's parametrized modules, and I can use type families to do something similar.
22:26:12 <monochrom> i.e., when I want to make some fairly general abstraction.
22:27:05 <monochrom> Or IOW when I use type families, it's for general template-like things, not for dependent typing.
22:27:27 <EvanR> type synonym family is a fairly simple way to reduce the verbosity of some type level shenanigans, they just expand to some other shenanigan
22:27:56 <safinaskar> ncf: unfortunately, no. see: https://godbolt.org/z/xEa54v666 . see "oops1" and "oops2" in the end. unfortunately i was able to prove that my Equal is equivalent to standard haskell equality
22:27:57 <EvanR> associated type synonym family in a class can sometimes save you from multi-parameter type classes
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22:28:27 <monochrom> Yeah that's what I use them for.
22:28:30 <EvanR> for the sake of argument "simple haskell" doesn't have you doing any of those so those don't help
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22:28:59 <safinaskar> (and no, i cannot just remove "subst", i use it in proof of "subst2" and i use "subst2" in proof of (0 + x = x) )
22:28:59 <ncf> safinaskar: good point
22:29:11 <zzz> that was my suspicion
22:29:29 <zzz> i barey do any type-level acrobatics
22:29:51 <zzz> s/barey/barely
22:31:31 <safinaskar> ncf: "i'm not even sure which type families are considered injective" - according to https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.20.0.1/docs/Data-Type-Equality.html#v:inner (f a ~ g b) always implies (a ~ b). but this relies on the fact that we can substitute given type-level function to "f" and "g"
22:32:04 <safinaskar> ncf: so the rule is here: all type-level functions, which can be substituted to type-level variables, are injective
22:32:58 <safinaskar> ncf: in particular (i checked this using expirement) if we have "type Foo a = ...", then "Foo" cannot be substituted, so "Foo" is not injective. But "Foo a" can be substituted, and thus it is injective
22:33:21 <dolio> inner does not say type families are injective, because `f` and `g` do not range over type families.
22:34:49 <safinaskar> dolio: i did expirement, and result are so. if i have "type family Foo a :: Type -> Type", then "Foo" cannot be substituted and thus is not injective. but "Foo a" can be substituted and thus injective
22:35:02 <safinaskar> dolio: so yes, type families are not injective
22:35:13 <safinaskar> type level functions are
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22:36:01 <safinaskar> it seems i found solution. i just need to define "type family Add a b :: Nat", not "type family Add :: Nat -> Nat -> Nat"
22:36:06 <safinaskar> cool!
22:37:47 <geekosaur> they are if you declare them right (https://downloads.haskell.org/ghc/9.10.1/docs/users_guide/exts/type_families.html#injective-type-families)
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22:44:04 <safinaskar> zzz: "are typefamilies worth it or can i just get by with "simple" haskell?" - i never needed type families except for this very weird code
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22:53:40 <safinaskar> ncf: thanks for link. i just slightly have read it. and yes, now i know that type families can be injective if specially annotated. i. e. one can add more injectivity to a program if needed
22:54:24 <safinaskar> ncf: but in my case i want less injectivity, not more. and i already know how to do this. "type family Add a b :: Nat" instead of "type family Add :: Nat -> Nat -> Nat"
22:55:43 <ncf> (i have no idea why this works)
23:04:14 <safinaskar> ncf: i think i know why this works. "type family Add a b :: Nat" is somewhat similar to usual type synonym "type Add a b = ....". they are not injective (because you can easily write "type Add a b = Char"). and thus you should always apply all arguments, i. e. you cannot write (f @Add), you should write (f @(Add a b)). otherwise you could prove injectivity using "Data.Type.Equality.inner"
23:05:34 <safinaskar> ncf: and in "type family Add :: Nat -> Nat -> Nat" we have injectivity (because one cannot define non-injective "Add"), thus we can rely on it
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23:17:09 <safinaskar> i found a wrong statement at https://ghc.gitlab.haskell.org/ghc/doc/users_guide/exts/type_families.html
23:17:23 <safinaskar> but i will not report bug, because your bug reporting process is too compilected
23:17:30 <safinaskar> *complicated
23:18:07 <safinaskar> the statement is: "We call the number of parameters in a type family declaration, the family’s arity, and all applications of a type family must be fully saturated with respect to that arity. This requirement is unlike ordinary type synonyms and it implies that the kind of a type family is not sufficient to determine a family’s arity, and hence in general, also insufficient to determine whether a type family application is well formed."
23:18:31 <safinaskar> the statement is wrong, because ordinary type synonyms share this property, too (determined by expirement)
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23:53:55 <davean> safinaskar: why do you think that is wrong? Pretty sure I've defined classes on type synonyms for example
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23:57:58 <dolio> I don't think you can define classes on synonyms unless it satisfies a similar arity condition to families.
23:58:24 <dolio> But LiberalTypeSynonyms let you partially apply them as long as they become saturated, and doesn't allow the same thing to happen with families.

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